[Biofuel] Test, please ignore
Changes to the email system behind the list, Just checking to see if they are working. ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
[Biofuel] Test drilling for methane to start
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nb20120203a4.html Friday, Feb. 3, 2012 Test drilling for methane to start Kyodo NAGOYA - Japan Oil, Gas and Metals National Corp. said Thursday preparatory drilling will start around Feb. 14 in Pacific waters off central Japan for the world's first seabed methane hydrate production tests early next year. The government-controlled corporation said it and Japan Petroleum Exploration Co. plan to launch commercial production in fiscal 2018 if the tests prove successful. Methane hydrate, a sherbetlike substance consisting of methane gas trapped in ice below the seabed or permanently frozen ground, is viewed as a promising next-generation energy source. We will proceed with research in a bid to contribute to future natural gas supply, a JOGMEC official told a press conference. JOGMEC and Japan Petroleum Exploration will use the deep-sea exploration vessel Chikyu of the Japan Agency for Marine-Earth Science and Technology to drill four wells up to 300 meters below the seabed in 1-km-deep waters 70 to 80 km south of the Atsumi Peninsula, Aichi Prefecture, through late March. Methane hydrate deposits there are estimated at 1 trillion cu. meters, enough to supply more than 10 years' worth of natural gas consumed in Japan. If the production tests to be conducted along with an environmental effects assessment in the first quarter of 2013 are successful, JOGMEC and Japan Petroleum Exploration will conduct additional tests in or after fiscal 2016 to ascertain actual production volume. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Test drilling for methane to start
there's a theory about the bermuda triangle, that when disturbed, these hydrates burst (for lack of better terms) and the bubble is large enough to sink a ship wholesale, thus the stories of mysterious lost ships. even if mining hydrates *was* a good idea, i'd be concerned about the crew of the survey vessel... Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 21:54:23 +0200 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Test drilling for methane to start http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nb20120203a4.html Friday, Feb. 3, 2012 Test drilling for methane to start Kyodo NAGOYA - Japan Oil, Gas and Metals National Corp. said Thursday preparatory drilling will start around Feb. 14 in Pacific waters off central Japan for the world's first seabed methane hydrate production tests early next year. The government-controlled corporation said it and Japan Petroleum Exploration Co. plan to launch commercial production in fiscal 2018 if the tests prove successful. Methane hydrate, a sherbetlike substance consisting of methane gas trapped in ice below the seabed or permanently frozen ground, is viewed as a promising next-generation energy source. We will proceed with research in a bid to contribute to future natural gas supply, a JOGMEC official told a press conference. JOGMEC and Japan Petroleum Exploration will use the deep-sea exploration vessel Chikyu of the Japan Agency for Marine-Earth Science and Technology to drill four wells up to 300 meters below the seabed in 1-km-deep waters 70 to 80 km south of the Atsumi Peninsula, Aichi Prefecture, through late March. Methane hydrate deposits there are estimated at 1 trillion cu. meters, enough to supply more than 10 years' worth of natural gas consumed in Japan. If the production tests to be conducted along with an environmental effects assessment in the first quarter of 2013 are successful, JOGMEC and Japan Petroleum Exploration will conduct additional tests in or after fiscal 2016 to ascertain actual production volume. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20120205/ce9d7085/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Test Batch on Worst WVO ever
I ran a 0.5L test batch using the single stage base method on WVO that titrated 19 g KOH/L. Results: - No split/no glycerine dropped out. - Wash test on the mix bubbly emulsion. - FFAs dissolve in methanol. This WVO does not dissolve completely. - FFAs that I split from the glyc mix titrate about 33.5g KOH/L. The WVO titrated 19. This suggests that there are at least some glycerides in the oil. Why didn't they convert to BD some glycerine drop out? Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080529/664db339/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
Hi Tom, Perhaps Roger is partially or completely colour blind. As part of the 7 to 10% of the male population that is colour blind, I fully understand wanting, or rather needing, to use a pH meter. Most titration indicators rely upon colour changes I find that are difficult to detect, at least with any accuracy. I would be interested in finding out if there are any other options, other than a pH meter or a titration test, for determining the pH of a solution. Doug Turner, Hamilton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thomas Kelly Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:25 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Roger, Freshly opened 55 gal drums of methanol usually are good. By the time you get to the bottom of barrel there is often water present due to condensation. As the level drops more air space. Moisture in air drops out over time methanol acquires water. Batches have more soap. I just picked up some peanut oil. I'll try a test batch to see if I have any problems. You'r insistance on using the pH meter ??? Because you have one? or is it titration fear? Phenolphthalein solution (dissolved in alcohol) turns from clear magenta at the pH range suitable for transesterification, making it suitable for determining any adjustments that must be made to the WVO we want to convert to BD. As Ken has pointed out, pH meters and pH paper are good for determining the pH of aqueous solutions, but not so for oil. Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil That is what I was looking for. I was following the recipe to the 'T' and was wondering where I was going wrong. Anything is possible. The methanol came from Quaker City Chemical in a 55-Gal Drum, 99.9%. I opened the drum, removed 2 liters with a new, unused pump, then sealed the Nalgene containers and the drum back up. I assumed it would be water-less, but I may have missed something. Suppose there is water in the drum - does that make it useless? Any way to fix that? I used a name brand oil from the grocery store (not sure now what it was now.) That shouldn't be the problem. I'll buy the yellow Heet bottle and try again. In the meantime, I'll practice titration with my pH meter and find some phenolphthalein to try as well. I thought the pH meter would be easy to use and just as good but I'm not familiar with using one - so training my be necessary. I also don't have the calibration solutions yet either. Working for a surplus lab equipment company, we get all kinds of neat stuff - but more often than not it's not all there and that is even if I know what it is. The peanut oil I have came from Costco in the big jug. I used half for a turkey and figured it would be worth trying out. That'll be next. Thanks for your help, Roger Thomas Kelly wrote: Roger, I'm stumped by the third photo. Why so much soap when you used new veg oil. I'm surprisd it separated at all. You are certain the methanol is dry? Soap forms when there is water contamination. Soap forms when Free Fatty Acids are present. Ken P. responded to you on March 31: It's ALWAYS a good idea to titrate, even virgin oil. Many oils, including palm and olive (don't know about peanut) have high FFA levels as typically sold. The reason for using new, unused veg oil of our first test batches is to decrease the number of variables we are dealing with. It is best to avoid titration until you get the basic process under your belt. It is assumed that new oil doesn't have to be titrated. This may not be the case. Suggestions: 1. Pick up a container of Heet (brand of gas line antifreeze) Yellow container, NOT Red. (If it is available to you.) ~ $1.50/300ml. (US). It is dry methanol. 2. I did my test batches using a name brand corn oil. The people I have helped in my neigborhood have done the same. We had no problems with FFAs. Maybe you should invest in a bottle of name brand corn oil . or is that what you already did? As for pH meters: (Ken P): pH really only makes sense when referring to a water-based solution. Sticking pH paper or pH meter into biodiesel gives spurious results in most cases. I often measure the pH of my wash water as a check of how much lye and soaps may be left in the biodiesel, but never the biodiesel (or oil) itself. Get Phenolphthalein (dissolved in alcohol) for titrations. We'll deal with the mysterious peanut oil and with you WVO after you succeed w. the test batches. I'm now curious about peanut oil. I'll see about getting some and doing a test batch myself. Tom - Original Message - From
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
Doug, Two of my four sons are color-deficient. It should have, but didn't occur to me that there might be a problem recognizing color change during titration. The forms of color deficiency that I am familiar with involves distinguishing between colors; ex: reds and greens of similar shades. Titration, using phenolphthalein, involves color change from clear (cloudy white as titration solution is added) to magenta. I would think that even those with significant color deficiency would be able to distinguish the difference. If nothing other than seeing it change from light to dark. I would think that distinguishing the split biodiesel top, glyc. mix bottom, especially from processing unused peanut oil, would have been more of a problem. I'll check with one of my color-deficient sons next time he stops by. Tom - Original Message - From: Doug Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Hi Tom, Perhaps Roger is partially or completely colour blind. As part of the 7 to 10% of the male population that is colour blind, I fully understand wanting, or rather needing, to use a pH meter. Most titration indicators rely upon colour changes I find that are difficult to detect, at least with any accuracy. I would be interested in finding out if there are any other options, other than a pH meter or a titration test, for determining the pH of a solution. Doug Turner, Hamilton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thomas Kelly Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:25 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Roger, Freshly opened 55 gal drums of methanol usually are good. By the time you get to the bottom of barrel there is often water present due to condensation. As the level drops more air space. Moisture in air drops out over time methanol acquires water. Batches have more soap. I just picked up some peanut oil. I'll try a test batch to see if I have any problems. You'r insistance on using the pH meter ??? Because you have one? or is it titration fear? Phenolphthalein solution (dissolved in alcohol) turns from clear magenta at the pH range suitable for transesterification, making it suitable for determining any adjustments that must be made to the WVO we want to convert to BD. As Ken has pointed out, pH meters and pH paper are good for determining the pH of aqueous solutions, but not so for oil. Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil That is what I was looking for. I was following the recipe to the 'T' and was wondering where I was going wrong. Anything is possible. The methanol came from Quaker City Chemical in a 55-Gal Drum, 99.9%. I opened the drum, removed 2 liters with a new, unused pump, then sealed the Nalgene containers and the drum back up. I assumed it would be water-less, but I may have missed something. Suppose there is water in the drum - does that make it useless? Any way to fix that? I used a name brand oil from the grocery store (not sure now what it was now.) That shouldn't be the problem. I'll buy the yellow Heet bottle and try again. In the meantime, I'll practice titration with my pH meter and find some phenolphthalein to try as well. I thought the pH meter would be easy to use and just as good but I'm not familiar with using one - so training my be necessary. I also don't have the calibration solutions yet either. Working for a surplus lab equipment company, we get all kinds of neat stuff - but more often than not it's not all there and that is even if I know what it is. The peanut oil I have came from Costco in the big jug. I used half for a turkey and figured it would be worth trying out. That'll be next. Thanks for your help, Roger Thomas Kelly wrote: Roger, I'm stumped by the third photo. Why so much soap when you used new veg oil. I'm surprisd it separated at all. You are certain the methanol is dry? Soap forms when there is water contamination. Soap forms when Free Fatty Acids are present. Ken P. responded to you on March 31: It's ALWAYS a good idea to titrate, even virgin oil. Many oils, including palm and olive (don't know about peanut) have high FFA levels as typically sold. The reason for using new, unused veg oil of our first test batches is to decrease the number of variables we are dealing with. It is best to avoid titration until you get the basic process under your belt. It is assumed that new oil doesn't have to be titrated. This may not be the case
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
Update on peanut oil test batch: Because the biodiesel produced from a peanut oil test batch did not appear to pass the Jan W. methanol quality test (mix turned white; white precipitate settled), I reprocessed the biodiesel layer. No glycerin dropped out. The hot, reprocessed mix was clear and light yellow in color. I did a quality test on the reprocessed BD and again, the mix turned white. The methanol I used came from a shed; temp ~ 35F/2C, so I gently heated the methanol-BD mix and the white disappeared - clear solution. The solution stayed clear until it approached room temp (my kitchen: 65F/18C) at which point it began to cloud up again. At 70 - 75F (21 - 26C) the BD is completely soluble in methanol = passed the test. The reprocessed BD remains clear at room temp, but cooling it below 60F wisps of white begin to form. Ken P. (3/21/08): Peanut oil is about 75-80% oleic and linoleic, with the remainder almost entirely saturated (palmitic, stearic, and longer). I would expect biodiesel made from it to show precipitates at temperatures lower than maybe 65 F. I think Ken nailed it. The test batch was actually a success. At cool temps like my basement, an outdoor shed, or even my kitchen, the BD begins to cloud and then gel. I put the remaining peanut oil in my refrigerator. At about 40F (5C) there is a white layer on the bottom of the container. It has been my opinion and experience that the cloud point and pour point of biodiesel reflects the cloud and pour point of the veg. oil it was made from. Because the peanut oil did not cloud in my basement 55 - 60F (13- 15C), I didn't think the BD made from it would cloud at that temp. I'm still perplexed on that issue, but ... ? It might be a good idea to avoid processing peanut oil, especially newbies who are doing test batches. What other oils would fall into this category? Again, Ken P: Many oils, including palm and olive (don't know about peanut) have high FFA levels as typically sold. The wash test results on successfully processed peanut oil gives very unusual results: creamy white BD layer on top of a white water layer, with a thin white soap layer between. Using hot water gives better definition, but is generally viewed as cheating on the test. The washed/dried BD is very clear and almost colorless. Newbies might want to stick to canola, corn, soy oils for test batches. Best to All, Tom - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:55 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Roger, Peanut oil is interesting stuff. I just did a test batch with peanut oil Planter's 100% pure. Titration: 0ml0.1% KOH (90% pure) Less glycerine dropped out than I expect. Incomplete reaction? I let it settle for about an hour and then did a (solubility in methanol) quality test. - the mix turned white a white cloud' is settling in the methanol. (I've never seen anything like it w. fresh or waste veg oil.) I just did a wash test on a small sample - exactly what you described: White, on white, on white: cloudy white top layer (BD?), cloudy white bottom layer (water), thin soap layer (white) in between. I had to hold the container in front of a bright light to see contrast. After three shake washes I heated the top layer to get the water to drop out clear layer only slightly yellow. I did another quality test (methanol sol.) and again got white. I did a wash test and a quality test on untreated peanut oil -- oil settled out Maybe there are unreacted mono- di- glycerides that behave oddly in the wash and methanol tests. If I get a chance I will reprocess the sample of biodiesel that remains from the test batch. Maybe you just picked the wrong oil to start doing test batches on. I hope you are having better success with a different oil. I'm on my way to quality test a batch that is finishing up. Hopefully I'll have better luck on the mix of waste oil than I did on the peanut oil. Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Sorry for the excitement and frustration. I've made 4 or 5 1L batches with virgin peanut oil with no luck. 1L Clean, Virgin, Peanut Oil 200ml Methanol 5.4g, 5.5g, 5.6g, 6.0g of 90% KOH (All with very similar results) 55°C Temp via Hotplate Agitation: Fast Stirring for 30 minutes via Hotplate The original separation looks great - waited at least 12 hours but separates in about 2 hours. Obvious layers with a slightly hazy, pale yellow
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
Sounds like we ended up at the same place. Hence why I was very perplexed at the wash test results, etc. I'll be in touch with my findings this weekend - I'm sure to be busy on more test runs. Thanks, Roger Thomas Kelly wrote: Update on peanut oil test batch: Because the biodiesel produced from a peanut oil test batch did not appear to pass the Jan W. methanol quality test (mix turned white; white precipitate settled), I reprocessed the biodiesel layer. No glycerin dropped out. The hot, reprocessed mix was clear and light yellow in color. I did a quality test on the reprocessed BD and again, the mix turned white. The methanol I used came from a shed; temp ~ 35F/2C, so I gently heated the methanol-BD mix and the white disappeared - clear solution. The solution stayed clear until it approached room temp (my kitchen: 65F/18C) at which point it began to cloud up again. At 70 - 75F (21 - 26C) the BD is completely soluble in methanol = passed the test. The reprocessed BD remains clear at room temp, but cooling it below 60F wisps of white begin to form. Ken P. (3/21/08): Peanut oil is about 75-80% oleic and linoleic, with the remainder almost entirely saturated (palmitic, stearic, and longer). I would expect biodiesel made from it to show precipitates at temperatures lower than maybe 65 F. I think Ken nailed it. The test batch was actually a success. At cool temps like my basement, an outdoor shed, or even my kitchen, the BD begins to cloud and then gel. I put the remaining peanut oil in my refrigerator. At about 40F (5C) there is a white layer on the bottom of the container. It has been my opinion and experience that the cloud point and pour point of biodiesel reflects the cloud and pour point of the veg. oil it was made from. Because the peanut oil did not cloud in my basement 55 - 60F (13- 15C), I didn't think the BD made from it would cloud at that temp. I'm still perplexed on that issue, but ... ? It might be a good idea to avoid processing peanut oil, especially newbies who are doing test batches. What other oils would fall into this category? Again, Ken P: Many oils, including palm and olive (don't know about peanut) have high FFA levels as typically sold. The wash test results on successfully processed peanut oil gives very unusual results: creamy white BD layer on top of a white water layer, with a thin white soap layer between. Using hot water gives better definition, but is generally viewed as cheating on the test. The washed/dried BD is very clear and almost colorless. Newbies might want to stick to canola, corn, soy oils for test batches. Best to All, Tom - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:55 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Roger, Peanut oil is interesting stuff. I just did a test batch with peanut oil Planter's 100% pure. Titration: 0ml0.1% KOH (90% pure) Less glycerine dropped out than I expect. Incomplete reaction? I let it settle for about an hour and then did a (solubility in methanol) quality test. - the mix turned white a white cloud' is settling in the methanol. (I've never seen anything like it w. fresh or waste veg oil.) I just did a wash test on a small sample - exactly what you described: White, on white, on white: cloudy white top layer (BD?), cloudy white bottom layer (water), thin soap layer (white) in between. I had to hold the container in front of a bright light to see contrast. After three shake washes I heated the top layer to get the water to drop out clear layer only slightly yellow. I did another quality test (methanol sol.) and again got white. I did a wash test and a quality test on untreated peanut oil -- oil settled out Maybe there are unreacted mono- di- glycerides that behave oddly in the wash and methanol tests. If I get a chance I will reprocess the sample of biodiesel that remains from the test batch. Maybe you just picked the wrong oil to start doing test batches on. I hope you are having better success with a different oil. I'm on my way to quality test a batch that is finishing up. Hopefully I'll have better luck on the mix of waste oil than I did on the peanut oil. Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Sorry for the excitement and frustration. I've made 4 or 5 1L batches with virgin peanut oil with no luck. 1L Clean, Virgin, Peanut
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
. The BD will be cloudy because water will be suspended in it. The next step is to dry the BD. Heat it gently. You might put your tube of BD in a hot water bath. As the mix heats up water will fall out and the BD will clear. I do my wash tests in the same PET bottles described above. Equal volumes of water and BD~150ml of each. Shake vigorously. With top closed, invert, and drain after water settles out. Add clean water repeat. The last batch of 6.0g separated the quickest, less than a minute - the others longer up to 15 minutes or so. It might be that your KOH is not 90% pure @ 90% purity you would use 5.45g KOH/L of unused oil @ 85% purity you would use 5.76g KOH/L of unused oil Doing the methanol quality test on the BD before you wash it or after you wash and then dry it would tell us more about your success in achieving a complete conversion of the veg oil. And, with the rest of the batch in a jar in the garage, each one has turned to mush. Looks like the inside of a melon or something. You're losing me here. Are you referring to the glycerin mix separated from the BD? Just another word of caution. When you do succeed at 1L test batches and feel comfortable w. the process. scale up gardually. We can talk aboput this another time. Dinner calls. Best of Luck to You, Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Sorry for the excitement and frustration. I've made 4 or 5 1L batches with virgin peanut oil with no luck. 1L Clean, Virgin, Peanut Oil 200ml Methanol 5.4g, 5.5g, 5.6g, 6.0g of 90% KOH (All with very similar results) 55°C Temp via Hotplate Agitation: Fast Stirring for 30 minutes via Hotplate The original separation looks great - waited at least 12 hours but separates in about 2 hours. Obvious layers with a slightly hazy, pale yellow biodiesel layer and clear, darker by-product layer. Separated by pouring the biodiesel off the top. Looks to be about 1.1L of biodiesel for each batch. It's slightly colder in my garage, but not outside temperate. I'd say roughly 55°F or so. Each wash test was with 20ml of product and 20ml of water in a 50ml plastic tube. The final wash test I performed inside with warmer water. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very thin white line between. The biodiesel looks cloudy white. The last batch of 6.0g separated the quickest, less than a minute - the others longer up to 15 minutes or so. However, it doesn't look quite like what J2F described as good fuel. And, with the rest of the batch in a jar in the garage, each one has turned to mush. Looks like the inside of a melon or something. My first thought was that peanut oil was different enough from vegetable oil that I would need to titrate it and change the KOH amount. However, I wasn't having much luck with the pH meter. One time it would be add 0.4gm of KOH and the next time 0.01g would be too much. I thought I didn't know how to use the meter. The processor I made (assuming I would be using it by now) has 2) 75 gallon tanks with individual heaters, controls, pumps, and stirrers. It can be used as a 150gal unit or a 2-stage 75gal unit. (I've attached a picture.) I can't wait to try it but haven't used it yet for fear of making a lot of soap. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thomas Kelly wrote: Roger, Back up a bit. Has anyone tried this? It's all I had laying around to start with but I keep getting a questionable result. By tried this do you mean peanut oil? If so, I have run batches with peanut oil mixed in. Since it was new, I tried the same recipe for virgin vegetable oil and it didn't really pass the wash test and as soon as it got cold, it turned into sludge. Got cold???The wash test is done at room temp 70-ish F (20-ish C) I made a 2x75Gal machine that I am dying to use and the used oil is piling up. (What's a 2x75Gal machine? a 75 Gal processor? 150 Gal processor?) Hold on now cowboy . let's not sign up for a marathon run before we up and walking. You don't want to turn gallons of good oil into gallons of goop. You might start by telling us step-by-step what you are doing. Ex 1L fresh, unused vegetable oil 200ml methanol 5.45 g of 90% KOH Method of agitation? Temp? 30 minutes reaction time Do you get a clear split? How long do you let it settle? How do you separate the settled glycerine mix from the biodiesel (separatory funnel?) Describe the results of the wash test
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
, even a small amount of glycerin/soap contamination will prolong separation time during the wash test. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very thin white line between. The biodiesel looks cloudy white. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very thin white line between. Do you mean: Cloudy water on bottom, with a very thin white line between the cloudy water on bottom and something darker on top? This would be a good thing. When you say: The biodiesel looks cloudy white. I'm a bit confused. If the biodiesel is white, you wouldn't be able to see the very thin white line between. It would just be white on top of white. Is the biodiesel layer (on top) darker than the thin white line? Again, a good thing. However, it doesn't look quite like what J2F described as good fuel. Do you mean after doing a wash test? It will not yet be good fuel. It will take more than shaking with water once to get the contaminants out of the BD. After 3 or 4 washes, the wash water should be clear and the same pH as the water that was added. The BD will be cloudy because water will be suspended in it. The next step is to dry the BD. Heat it gently. You might put your tube of BD in a hot water bath. As the mix heats up water will fall out and the BD will clear. I do my wash tests in the same PET bottles described above. Equal volumes of water and BD~150ml of each. Shake vigorously. With top closed, invert, and drain after water settles out. Add clean water repeat. The last batch of 6.0g separated the quickest, less than a minute - the others longer up to 15 minutes or so. It might be that your KOH is not 90% pure @ 90% purity you would use 5.45g KOH/L of unused oil @ 85% purity you would use 5.76g KOH/L of unused oil Doing the methanol quality test on the BD before you wash it or after you wash and then dry it would tell us more about your success in achieving a complete conversion of the veg oil. And, with the rest of the batch in a jar in the garage, each one has turned to mush. Looks like the inside of a melon or something. You're losing me here. Are you referring to the glycerin mix separated from the BD? Just another word of caution. When you do succeed at 1L test batches and feel comfortable w. the process. scale up gardually. We can talk aboput this another time. Dinner calls. Best of Luck to You, Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Sorry for the excitement and frustration. I've made 4 or 5 1L batches with virgin peanut oil with no luck. 1L Clean, Virgin, Peanut Oil 200ml Methanol 5.4g, 5.5g, 5.6g, 6.0g of 90% KOH (All with very similar results) 55°C Temp via Hotplate Agitation: Fast Stirring for 30 minutes via Hotplate The original separation looks great - waited at least 12 hours but separates in about 2 hours. Obvious layers with a slightly hazy, pale yellow biodiesel layer and clear, darker by-product layer. Separated by pouring the biodiesel off the top. Looks to be about 1.1L of biodiesel for each batch. It's slightly colder in my garage, but not outside temperate. I'd say roughly 55°F or so. Each wash test was with 20ml of product and 20ml of water in a 50ml plastic tube. The final wash test I performed inside with warmer water. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very thin white line between. The biodiesel looks cloudy white. The last batch of 6.0g separated the quickest, less than a minute - the others longer up to 15 minutes or so. However, it doesn't look quite like what J2F described as good fuel. And, with the rest of the batch in a jar in the garage, each one has turned to mush. Looks like the inside of a melon or something. My first thought was that peanut oil was different enough from vegetable oil that I would need to titrate it and change the KOH amount. However, I wasn't having much luck with the pH meter. One time it would be add 0.4gm of KOH and the next time 0.01g would be too much. I thought I didn't know how to use the meter. The processor I made (assuming I would be using it by now) has 2) 75 gallon tanks with individual heaters, controls, pumps, and stirrers. It can be used as a 150gal unit or a 2-stage 75gal unit. (I've attached a picture.) I can't wait to try it but haven't used it yet for fear of making a lot of soap. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thomas Kelly wrote: Roger, Back up
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
That is what I was looking for. I was following the recipe to the 'T' and was wondering where I was going wrong. Anything is possible. The methanol came from Quaker City Chemical in a 55-Gal Drum, 99.9%. I opened the drum, removed 2 liters with a new, unused pump, then sealed the Nalgene containers and the drum back up. I assumed it would be water-less, but I may have missed something. Suppose there is water in the drum - does that make it useless? Any way to fix that? I used a name brand oil from the grocery store (not sure now what it was now.) That shouldn't be the problem. I'll buy the yellow Heet bottle and try again. In the meantime, I'll practice titration with my pH meter and find some phenolphthalein to try as well. I thought the pH meter would be easy to use and just as good but I'm not familiar with using one - so training my be necessary. I also don't have the calibration solutions yet either. Working for a surplus lab equipment company, we get all kinds of neat stuff - but more often than not it's not all there and that is even if I know what it is. The peanut oil I have came from Costco in the big jug. I used half for a turkey and figured it would be worth trying out. That'll be next. Thanks for your help, Roger Thomas Kelly wrote: Roger, I'm stumped by the third photo. Why so much soap when you used new veg oil. I'm surprisd it separated at all. You are certain the methanol is dry? Soap forms when there is water contamination. Soap forms when Free Fatty Acids are present. Ken P. responded to you on March 31: It's ALWAYS a good idea to titrate, even virgin oil. Many oils, including palm and olive (don't know about peanut) have high FFA levels as typically sold. The reason for using new, unused veg oil of our first test batches is to decrease the number of variables we are dealing with. It is best to avoid titration until you get the basic process under your belt. It is assumed that new oil doesn't have to be titrated. This may not be the case. Suggestions: 1. Pick up a container of Heet (brand of gas line antifreeze) Yellow container, NOT Red. (If it is available to you.) ~ $1.50/300ml. (US). It is dry methanol. 2. I did my test batches using a name brand corn oil. The people I have helped in my neigborhood have done the same. We had no problems with FFAs. Maybe you should invest in a bottle of name brand corn oil . or is that what you already did? As for pH meters: (Ken P): pH really only makes sense when referring to a water-based solution. Sticking pH paper or pH meter into biodiesel gives spurious results in most cases. I often measure the pH of my wash water as a check of how much lye and soaps may be left in the biodiesel, but never the biodiesel (or oil) itself. Get Phenolphthalein (dissolved in alcohol) for titrations. We'll deal with the mysterious peanut oil and with you WVO after you succeed w. the test batches. I'm now curious about peanut oil. I'll see about getting some and doing a test batch myself. Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil New Results...Better I think. I tried another batch last night with vegetable oil with 'better' results. 1L Clean, Virgin, Vegetable Oil 200ml Methanol 5.5g of 90% KOH (All with very similar results) 55°C Temp via Hotplate Agitation: Fast Stirring for 30 minutes via Hotplate Here are some pictures of what I have so far... http://tesi.servepics.com/roger/BD-4208-01a.JPG http://tesi.servepics.com/roger/BD-4208-01b.JPG http://tesi.servepics.com/roger/BD-4208-01c.JPG I let it settle for 14 hours. Picture A is of the results. Picture B is right after shaking 20ml of BD and 20ml of water (both at room temperature) Picture C is after an hour of settling. The is the best wash test I've gotten but it looks like a lot of soap in there. So my question is... which way do I need to go to make it better? More KOH? I'm using very accurate measurements. (Digital balance accurate to 0.001g, Graduated cylinders, etc.) No water contamination that I'm aware of and taking precautions not to have any. That is the only thing missing from J2F, pictures with typical results and adjustments necessary to make improvements. Haven't tried the methanol test yet (still at work). Now, when I used peanut oil with the same recipe, I got a cloudy, opaque water and cloudy whiteish BD after the wash test. Any thoughts on which way I need to go with that? I presume I'll have to titrate it and make adjustments from there. I need a pH probe to go with my meter before I can proceed with the peanut oil or used oil. Thomas Kelly wrote: Roger, Now we're getting somewhere
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
. You are getting a clear split. You have made biodiesel. You may well have some unreacted mono and di glycerides in with the BD. - Have you tried a quality test on the unwashed biodiesel? i.e. the Jan W. solubility in methanol test describes at JtF? - I would be very careful not to include any glycerin mix when you pour the biodiesel off the top. In fact I would avoid pouring altogether. Draw the BD off using a pipette or do the following: Get a few .5 L - 1L clear plastic sports drink bottle (PET bottles) that have twist open/close tops. Some water bottles have pull-to-open push-to-close tops. Process as usual, allow to cool a bit and then pour the mix into one of the bottles. Allow the biodiesel-glycerin mix to settle in a closed and inverted bottle. After 12 - 24 hours drain out the glycerin from the bottom. If any unreacted glycerides are present, even a small amount of glycerin/soap contamination will prolong separation time during the wash test. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very thin white line between. The biodiesel looks cloudy white. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very thin white line between. Do you mean: Cloudy water on bottom, with a very thin white line between the cloudy water on bottom and something darker on top? This would be a good thing. When you say: The biodiesel looks cloudy white. I'm a bit confused. If the biodiesel is white, you wouldn't be able to see the very thin white line between. It would just be white on top of white. Is the biodiesel layer (on top) darker than the thin white line? Again, a good thing. However, it doesn't look quite like what J2F described as good fuel. Do you mean after doing a wash test? It will not yet be good fuel. It will take more than shaking with water once to get the contaminants out of the BD. After 3 or 4 washes, the wash water should be clear and the same pH as the water that was added. The BD will be cloudy because water will be suspended in it. The next step is to dry the BD. Heat it gently. You might put your tube of BD in a hot water bath. As the mix heats up water will fall out and the BD will clear. I do my wash tests in the same PET bottles described above. Equal volumes of water and BD~150ml of each. Shake vigorously. With top closed, invert, and drain after water settles out. Add clean water repeat. The last batch of 6.0g separated the quickest, less than a minute - the others longer up to 15 minutes or so. It might be that your KOH is not 90% pure @ 90% purity you would use 5.45g KOH/L of unused oil @ 85% purity you would use 5.76g KOH/L of unused oil Doing the methanol quality test on the BD before you wash it or after you wash and then dry it would tell us more about your success in achieving a complete conversion of the veg oil. And, with the rest of the batch in a jar in the garage, each one has turned to mush. Looks like the inside of a melon or something. You're losing me here. Are you referring to the glycerin mix separated from the BD? Just another word of caution. When you do succeed at 1L test batches and feel comfortable w. the process. scale up gardually. We can talk aboput this another time. Dinner calls. Best of Luck to You, Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Sorry for the excitement and frustration. I've made 4 or 5 1L batches with virgin peanut oil with no luck. 1L Clean, Virgin, Peanut Oil 200ml Methanol 5.4g, 5.5g, 5.6g, 6.0g of 90% KOH (All with very similar results) 55°C Temp via Hotplate Agitation: Fast Stirring for 30 minutes via Hotplate The original separation looks great - waited at least 12 hours but separates in about 2 hours. Obvious layers with a slightly hazy, pale yellow biodiesel layer and clear, darker by-product layer. Separated by pouring the biodiesel off the top. Looks to be about 1.1L of biodiesel for each batch. It's slightly colder in my garage, but not outside temperate. I'd say roughly 55°F or so. Each wash test was with 20ml of product and 20ml of water in a 50ml plastic tube. The final wash test I performed inside with warmer water. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very thin white line between. The biodiesel looks cloudy white. The last batch of 6.0g separated the quickest, less than a minute - the others longer up to 15
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
Roger, Freshly opened 55 gal drums of methanol usually are good. By the time you get to the bottom of barrel there is often water present due to condensation. As the level drops more air space. Moisture in air drops out over time methanol acquires water. Batches have more soap. I just picked up some peanut oil. I'll try a test batch to see if I have any problems. You'r insistance on using the pH meter ??? Because you have one? or is it titration fear? Phenolphthalein solution (dissolved in alcohol) turns from clear magenta at the pH range suitable for transesterification, making it suitable for determining any adjustments that must be made to the WVO we want to convert to BD. As Ken has pointed out, pH meters and pH paper are good for determining the pH of aqueous solutions, but not so for oil. Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil That is what I was looking for. I was following the recipe to the 'T' and was wondering where I was going wrong. Anything is possible. The methanol came from Quaker City Chemical in a 55-Gal Drum, 99.9%. I opened the drum, removed 2 liters with a new, unused pump, then sealed the Nalgene containers and the drum back up. I assumed it would be water-less, but I may have missed something. Suppose there is water in the drum - does that make it useless? Any way to fix that? I used a name brand oil from the grocery store (not sure now what it was now.) That shouldn't be the problem. I'll buy the yellow Heet bottle and try again. In the meantime, I'll practice titration with my pH meter and find some phenolphthalein to try as well. I thought the pH meter would be easy to use and just as good but I'm not familiar with using one - so training my be necessary. I also don't have the calibration solutions yet either. Working for a surplus lab equipment company, we get all kinds of neat stuff - but more often than not it's not all there and that is even if I know what it is. The peanut oil I have came from Costco in the big jug. I used half for a turkey and figured it would be worth trying out. That'll be next. Thanks for your help, Roger Thomas Kelly wrote: Roger, I'm stumped by the third photo. Why so much soap when you used new veg oil. I'm surprisd it separated at all. You are certain the methanol is dry? Soap forms when there is water contamination. Soap forms when Free Fatty Acids are present. Ken P. responded to you on March 31: It's ALWAYS a good idea to titrate, even virgin oil. Many oils, including palm and olive (don't know about peanut) have high FFA levels as typically sold. The reason for using new, unused veg oil of our first test batches is to decrease the number of variables we are dealing with. It is best to avoid titration until you get the basic process under your belt. It is assumed that new oil doesn't have to be titrated. This may not be the case. Suggestions: 1. Pick up a container of Heet (brand of gas line antifreeze) Yellow container, NOT Red. (If it is available to you.) ~ $1.50/300ml. (US). It is dry methanol. 2. I did my test batches using a name brand corn oil. The people I have helped in my neigborhood have done the same. We had no problems with FFAs. Maybe you should invest in a bottle of name brand corn oil . or is that what you already did? As for pH meters: (Ken P): pH really only makes sense when referring to a water-based solution. Sticking pH paper or pH meter into biodiesel gives spurious results in most cases. I often measure the pH of my wash water as a check of how much lye and soaps may be left in the biodiesel, but never the biodiesel (or oil) itself. Get Phenolphthalein (dissolved in alcohol) for titrations. We'll deal with the mysterious peanut oil and with you WVO after you succeed w. the test batches. I'm now curious about peanut oil. I'll see about getting some and doing a test batch myself. Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil New Results...Better I think. I tried another batch last night with vegetable oil with 'better' results. 1L Clean, Virgin, Vegetable Oil 200ml Methanol 5.5g of 90% KOH (All with very similar results) 55°C Temp via Hotplate Agitation: Fast Stirring for 30 minutes via Hotplate Here are some pictures of what I have so far... http://tesi.servepics.com/roger/BD-4208-01a.JPG http://tesi.servepics.com/roger/BD-4208-01b.JPG http://tesi.servepics.com/roger/BD-4208-01c.JPG
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
Roger, Peanut oil is interesting stuff. I just did a test batch with peanut oil Planter's 100% pure. Titration: 0ml0.1% KOH (90% pure) Less glycerine dropped out than I expect. Incomplete reaction? I let it settle for about an hour and then did a (solubility in methanol) quality test. - the mix turned white a white cloud' is settling in the methanol. (I've never seen anything like it w. fresh or waste veg oil.) I just did a wash test on a small sample - exactly what you described: White, on white, on white: cloudy white top layer (BD?), cloudy white bottom layer (water), thin soap layer (white) in between. I had to hold the container in front of a bright light to see contrast. After three shake washes I heated the top layer to get the water to drop out clear layer only slightly yellow. I did another quality test (methanol sol.) and again got white. I did a wash test and a quality test on untreated peanut oil -- oil settled out Maybe there are unreacted mono- di- glycerides that behave oddly in the wash and methanol tests. If I get a chance I will reprocess the sample of biodiesel that remains from the test batch. Maybe you just picked the wrong oil to start doing test batches on. I hope you are having better success with a different oil. I'm on my way to quality test a batch that is finishing up. Hopefully I'll have better luck on the mix of waste oil than I did on the peanut oil. Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Sorry for the excitement and frustration. I've made 4 or 5 1L batches with virgin peanut oil with no luck. 1L Clean, Virgin, Peanut Oil 200ml Methanol 5.4g, 5.5g, 5.6g, 6.0g of 90% KOH (All with very similar results) 55°C Temp via Hotplate Agitation: Fast Stirring for 30 minutes via Hotplate The original separation looks great - waited at least 12 hours but separates in about 2 hours. Obvious layers with a slightly hazy, pale yellow biodiesel layer and clear, darker by-product layer. Separated by pouring the biodiesel off the top. Looks to be about 1.1L of biodiesel for each batch. It's slightly colder in my garage, but not outside temperate. I'd say roughly 55°F or so. Each wash test was with 20ml of product and 20ml of water in a 50ml plastic tube. The final wash test I performed inside with warmer water. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very thin white line between. The biodiesel looks cloudy white. The last batch of 6.0g separated the quickest, less than a minute - the others longer up to 15 minutes or so. However, it doesn't look quite like what J2F described as good fuel. And, with the rest of the batch in a jar in the garage, each one has turned to mush. Looks like the inside of a melon or something. My first thought was that peanut oil was different enough from vegetable oil that I would need to titrate it and change the KOH amount. However, I wasn't having much luck with the pH meter. One time it would be add 0.4gm of KOH and the next time 0.01g would be too much. I thought I didn't know how to use the meter. The processor I made (assuming I would be using it by now) has 2) 75 gallon tanks with individual heaters, controls, pumps, and stirrers. It can be used as a 150gal unit or a 2-stage 75gal unit. (I've attached a picture.) I can't wait to try it but haven't used it yet for fear of making a lot of soap. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thomas Kelly wrote: Roger, Back up a bit. Has anyone tried this? It's all I had laying around to start with but I keep getting a questionable result. By tried this do you mean peanut oil? If so, I have run batches with peanut oil mixed in. Since it was new, I tried the same recipe for virgin vegetable oil and it didn't really pass the wash test and as soon as it got cold, it turned into sludge. Got cold???The wash test is done at room temp 70-ish F (20-ish C) I made a 2x75Gal machine that I am dying to use and the used oil is piling up. (What's a 2x75Gal machine? a 75 Gal processor? 150 Gal processor?) Hold on now cowboy . let's not sign up for a marathon run before we up and walking. You don't want to turn gallons of good oil into gallons of goop. You might start by telling us step-by-step what you are doing. Ex 1L fresh, unused vegetable oil 200ml methanol 5.45 g of 90% KOH Method of agitation? Temp? 30 minutes reaction time Do you get a clear split? How long do you let it settle? How do you separate the settled glycerine mix from the biodiesel (separatory funnel?) Describe the results of the wash test, done
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
. You're losing me here. Are you referring to the glycerin mix separated from the BD? Just another word of caution. When you do succeed at 1L test batches and feel comfortable w. the process. scale up gardually. We can talk aboput this another time. Dinner calls. Best of Luck to You, Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Sorry for the excitement and frustration. I've made 4 or 5 1L batches with virgin peanut oil with no luck. 1L Clean, Virgin, Peanut Oil 200ml Methanol 5.4g, 5.5g, 5.6g, 6.0g of 90% KOH (All with very similar results) 55°C Temp via Hotplate Agitation: Fast Stirring for 30 minutes via Hotplate The original separation looks great - waited at least 12 hours but separates in about 2 hours. Obvious layers with a slightly hazy, pale yellow biodiesel layer and clear, darker by-product layer. Separated by pouring the biodiesel off the top. Looks to be about 1.1L of biodiesel for each batch. It's slightly colder in my garage, but not outside temperate. I'd say roughly 55°F or so. Each wash test was with 20ml of product and 20ml of water in a 50ml plastic tube. The final wash test I performed inside with warmer water. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very thin white line between. The biodiesel looks cloudy white. The last batch of 6.0g separated the quickest, less than a minute - the others longer up to 15 minutes or so. However, it doesn't look quite like what J2F described as good fuel. And, with the rest of the batch in a jar in the garage, each one has turned to mush. Looks like the inside of a melon or something. My first thought was that peanut oil was different enough from vegetable oil that I would need to titrate it and change the KOH amount. However, I wasn't having much luck with the pH meter. One time it would be add 0.4gm of KOH and the next time 0.01g would be too much. I thought I didn't know how to use the meter. The processor I made (assuming I would be using it by now) has 2) 75 gallon tanks with individual heaters, controls, pumps, and stirrers. It can be used as a 150gal unit or a 2-stage 75gal unit. (I've attached a picture.) I can't wait to try it but haven't used it yet for fear of making a lot of soap. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thomas Kelly wrote: Roger, Back up a bit. Has anyone tried this? It's all I had laying around to start with but I keep getting a questionable result. By tried this do you mean peanut oil? If so, I have run batches with peanut oil mixed in. Since it was new, I tried the same recipe for virgin vegetable oil and it didn't really pass the wash test and as soon as it got cold, it turned into sludge. Got cold???The wash test is done at room temp 70-ish F (20-ish C) I made a 2x75Gal machine that I am dying to use and the used oil is piling up. (What's a 2x75Gal machine? a 75 Gal processor? 150 Gal processor?) Hold on now cowboy . let's not sign up for a marathon run before we up and walking. You don't want to turn gallons of good oil into gallons of goop. You might start by telling us step-by-step what you are doing. Ex 1L fresh, unused vegetable oil 200ml methanol 5.45 g of 90% KOH Method of agitation? Temp? 30 minutes reaction time Do you get a clear split? How long do you let it settle? How do you separate the settled glycerine mix from the biodiesel (separatory funnel?) Describe the results of the wash test, done at room temp, as to time for separation + appearance of layers. While it is important to be able to measure accurately, especially for 1L test batches, I have gotten along fine w/o a pH meter. Best Wishes, Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 10:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Has anyone tried this? It's all I had laying around to start with but I keep getting a questionable result. Since it was new, I tried the same recipe for virgin vegetable oil and it didn't really pass the wash test and as soon as it got cold, it turned into sludge. I wish there was more pictures - not sure if I'm adding too much of something or too little or what. I'm using some nice equipment (I work for a laboratory surplus equipment company) such as a lab scale, pH meter, quality glassware, hotplate stirrer and a 2L reaction vessel. I'm holding the temperature right on, mixing for 30 minutes, etc. I have 90% KOH and 99.9% methanol from
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
Roger, I'm stumped by the third photo. Why so much soap when you used new veg oil. I'm surprisd it separated at all. You are certain the methanol is dry? Soap forms when there is water contamination. Soap forms when Free Fatty Acids are present. Ken P. responded to you on March 31: It's ALWAYS a good idea to titrate, even virgin oil. Many oils, including palm and olive (don't know about peanut) have high FFA levels as typically sold. The reason for using new, unused veg oil of our first test batches is to decrease the number of variables we are dealing with. It is best to avoid titration until you get the basic process under your belt. It is assumed that new oil doesn't have to be titrated. This may not be the case. Suggestions: 1. Pick up a container of Heet (brand of gas line antifreeze) Yellow container, NOT Red. (If it is available to you.) ~ $1.50/300ml. (US). It is dry methanol. 2. I did my test batches using a name brand corn oil. The people I have helped in my neigborhood have done the same. We had no problems with FFAs. Maybe you should invest in a bottle of name brand corn oil . or is that what you already did? As for pH meters: (Ken P): pH really only makes sense when referring to a water-based solution. Sticking pH paper or pH meter into biodiesel gives spurious results in most cases. I often measure the pH of my wash water as a check of how much lye and soaps may be left in the biodiesel, but never the biodiesel (or oil) itself. Get Phenolphthalein (dissolved in alcohol) for titrations. We'll deal with the mysterious peanut oil and with you WVO after you succeed w. the test batches. I'm now curious about peanut oil. I'll see about getting some and doing a test batch myself. Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil New Results...Better I think. I tried another batch last night with vegetable oil with 'better' results. 1L Clean, Virgin, Vegetable Oil 200ml Methanol 5.5g of 90% KOH (All with very similar results) 55°C Temp via Hotplate Agitation: Fast Stirring for 30 minutes via Hotplate Here are some pictures of what I have so far... http://tesi.servepics.com/roger/BD-4208-01a.JPG http://tesi.servepics.com/roger/BD-4208-01b.JPG http://tesi.servepics.com/roger/BD-4208-01c.JPG I let it settle for 14 hours. Picture A is of the results. Picture B is right after shaking 20ml of BD and 20ml of water (both at room temperature) Picture C is after an hour of settling. The is the best wash test I've gotten but it looks like a lot of soap in there. So my question is... which way do I need to go to make it better? More KOH? I'm using very accurate measurements. (Digital balance accurate to 0.001g, Graduated cylinders, etc.) No water contamination that I'm aware of and taking precautions not to have any. That is the only thing missing from J2F, pictures with typical results and adjustments necessary to make improvements. Haven't tried the methanol test yet (still at work). Now, when I used peanut oil with the same recipe, I got a cloudy, opaque water and cloudy whiteish BD after the wash test. Any thoughts on which way I need to go with that? I presume I'll have to titrate it and make adjustments from there. I need a pH probe to go with my meter before I can proceed with the peanut oil or used oil. Thomas Kelly wrote: Roger, Now we're getting somewhere. The original separation looks great - waited at least 12 hours but separates in about 2 hours. Obvious layers with a slightly hazy, pale yellow biodiesel layer and clear, darker by-product layer. Separated by pouring the biodiesel off the top. Looks to be about 1.1L of biodiesel for each batch. You are getting a clear split. You have made biodiesel. You may well have some unreacted mono and di glycerides in with the BD. - Have you tried a quality test on the unwashed biodiesel? i.e. the Jan W. solubility in methanol test describes at JtF? - I would be very careful not to include any glycerin mix when you pour the biodiesel off the top. In fact I would avoid pouring altogether. Draw the BD off using a pipette or do the following: Get a few .5 L - 1L clear plastic sports drink bottle (PET bottles) that have twist open/close tops. Some water bottles have pull-to-open push-to-close tops. Process as usual, allow to cool a bit and then pour the mix into one of the bottles. Allow the biodiesel-glycerin mix to settle in a closed and inverted bottle. After 12 - 24 hours drain out the glycerin from the bottom. If any unreacted glycerides are present, even a small amount of glycerin/soap contamination will prolong separation time during the wash test. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very
[Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
Has anyone tried this? It's all I had laying around to start with but I keep getting a questionable result. Since it was new, I tried the same recipe for virgin vegetable oil and it didn't really pass the wash test and as soon as it got cold, it turned into sludge. I wish there was more pictures - not sure if I'm adding too much of something or too little or what. I'm using some nice equipment (I work for a laboratory surplus equipment company) such as a lab scale, pH meter, quality glassware, hotplate stirrer and a 2L reaction vessel. I'm holding the temperature right on, mixing for 30 minutes, etc. I have 90% KOH and 99.9% methanol from a local chem distributor. Not sure when I'm doing wrong, but any advice would be great. I made a 2x75Gal machine that I am dying to use and the used oil is piling up. Also, I don't know if I'm using my pH meter correctly. Can someone give directions on proper use of one of these? If anyone needs any special equipment, just ask. I even have tanks, etc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
Roger, Back up a bit. Has anyone tried this? It's all I had laying around to start with but I keep getting a questionable result. By tried this do you mean peanut oil? If so, I have run batches with peanut oil mixed in. Since it was new, I tried the same recipe for virgin vegetable oil and it didn't really pass the wash test and as soon as it got cold, it turned into sludge. Got cold???The wash test is done at room temp 70-ish F (20-ish C) I made a 2x75Gal machine that I am dying to use and the used oil is piling up. (What's a 2x75Gal machine? a 75 Gal processor? 150 Gal processor?) Hold on now cowboy . let's not sign up for a marathon run before we up and walking. You don't want to turn gallons of good oil into gallons of goop. You might start by telling us step-by-step what you are doing. Ex 1L fresh, unused vegetable oil 200ml methanol 5.45 g of 90% KOH Method of agitation? Temp? 30 minutes reaction time Do you get a clear split? How long do you let it settle? How do you separate the settled glycerine mix from the biodiesel (separatory funnel?) Describe the results of the wash test, done at room temp, as to time for separation + appearance of layers. While it is important to be able to measure accurately, especially for 1L test batches, I have gotten along fine w/o a pH meter. Best Wishes, Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 10:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Has anyone tried this? It's all I had laying around to start with but I keep getting a questionable result. Since it was new, I tried the same recipe for virgin vegetable oil and it didn't really pass the wash test and as soon as it got cold, it turned into sludge. I wish there was more pictures - not sure if I'm adding too much of something or too little or what. I'm using some nice equipment (I work for a laboratory surplus equipment company) such as a lab scale, pH meter, quality glassware, hotplate stirrer and a 2L reaction vessel. I'm holding the temperature right on, mixing for 30 minutes, etc. I have 90% KOH and 99.9% methanol from a local chem distributor. Not sure when I'm doing wrong, but any advice would be great. I made a 2x75Gal machine that I am dying to use and the used oil is piling up. Also, I don't know if I'm using my pH meter correctly. Can someone give directions on proper use of one of these? If anyone needs any special equipment, just ask. I even have tanks, etc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
Sorry for the excitement and frustration. I've made 4 or 5 1L batches with virgin peanut oil with no luck. 1L Clean, Virgin, Peanut Oil 200ml Methanol 5.4g, 5.5g, 5.6g, 6.0g of 90% KOH (All with very similar results) 55°C Temp via Hotplate Agitation: Fast Stirring for 30 minutes via Hotplate The original separation looks great - waited at least 12 hours but separates in about 2 hours. Obvious layers with a slightly hazy, pale yellow biodiesel layer and clear, darker by-product layer. Separated by pouring the biodiesel off the top. Looks to be about 1.1L of biodiesel for each batch. It's slightly colder in my garage, but not outside temperate. I'd say roughly 55°F or so. Each wash test was with 20ml of product and 20ml of water in a 50ml plastic tube. The final wash test I performed inside with warmer water. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very thin white line between. The biodiesel looks cloudy white. The last batch of 6.0g separated the quickest, less than a minute - the others longer up to 15 minutes or so. However, it doesn't look quite like what J2F described as good fuel. And, with the rest of the batch in a jar in the garage, each one has turned to mush. Looks like the inside of a melon or something. My first thought was that peanut oil was different enough from vegetable oil that I would need to titrate it and change the KOH amount. However, I wasn't having much luck with the pH meter. One time it would be add 0.4gm of KOH and the next time 0.01g would be too much. I thought I didn't know how to use the meter. The processor I made (assuming I would be using it by now) has 2) 75 gallon tanks with individual heaters, controls, pumps, and stirrers. It can be used as a 150gal unit or a 2-stage 75gal unit. (I've attached a picture.) I can't wait to try it but haven't used it yet for fear of making a lot of soap. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thomas Kelly wrote: Roger, Back up a bit. Has anyone tried this? It's all I had laying around to start with but I keep getting a questionable result. By tried this do you mean peanut oil? If so, I have run batches with peanut oil mixed in. Since it was new, I tried the same recipe for virgin vegetable oil and it didn't really pass the wash test and as soon as it got cold, it turned into sludge. Got cold???The wash test is done at room temp 70-ish F (20-ish C) I made a 2x75Gal machine that I am dying to use and the used oil is piling up. (What's a 2x75Gal machine? a 75 Gal processor? 150 Gal processor?) Hold on now cowboy . let's not sign up for a marathon run before we up and walking. You don't want to turn gallons of good oil into gallons of goop. You might start by telling us step-by-step what you are doing. Ex 1L fresh, unused vegetable oil 200ml methanol 5.45 g of 90% KOH Method of agitation? Temp? 30 minutes reaction time Do you get a clear split? How long do you let it settle? How do you separate the settled glycerine mix from the biodiesel (separatory funnel?) Describe the results of the wash test, done at room temp, as to time for separation + appearance of layers. While it is important to be able to measure accurately, especially for 1L test batches, I have gotten along fine w/o a pH meter. Best Wishes, Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 10:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Has anyone tried this? It's all I had laying around to start with but I keep getting a questionable result. Since it was new, I tried the same recipe for virgin vegetable oil and it didn't really pass the wash test and as soon as it got cold, it turned into sludge. I wish there was more pictures - not sure if I'm adding too much of something or too little or what. I'm using some nice equipment (I work for a laboratory surplus equipment company) such as a lab scale, pH meter, quality glassware, hotplate stirrer and a 2L reaction vessel. I'm holding the temperature right on, mixing for 30 minutes, etc. I have 90% KOH and 99.9% methanol from a local chem distributor. Not sure when I'm doing wrong, but any advice would be great. I made a 2x75Gal machine that I am dying to use and the used oil is piling up. Also, I don't know if I'm using my pH meter correctly. Can someone give directions on proper use of one of these? If anyone needs any special equipment, just ask. I even have tanks, etc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
Roger, Now we're getting somewhere. The original separation looks great - waited at least 12 hours but separates in about 2 hours. Obvious layers with a slightly hazy, pale yellow biodiesel layer and clear, darker by-product layer. Separated by pouring the biodiesel off the top. Looks to be about 1.1L of biodiesel for each batch. You are getting a clear split. You have made biodiesel. You may well have some unreacted mono and di glycerides in with the BD. - Have you tried a quality test on the unwashed biodiesel? i.e. the Jan W. solubility in methanol test describes at JtF? - I would be very careful not to include any glycerin mix when you pour the biodiesel off the top. In fact I would avoid pouring altogether. Draw the BD off using a pipette or do the following: Get a few .5 L - 1L clear plastic sports drink bottle (PET bottles) that have twist open/close tops. Some water bottles have pull-to-open push-to-close tops. Process as usual, allow to cool a bit and then pour the mix into one of the bottles. Allow the biodiesel-glycerin mix to settle in a closed and inverted bottle. After 12 - 24 hours drain out the glycerin from the bottom. If any unreacted glycerides are present, even a small amount of glycerin/soap contamination will prolong separation time during the wash test. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very thin white line between. The biodiesel looks cloudy white. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very thin white line between. Do you mean: Cloudy water on bottom, with a very thin white line between the cloudy water on bottom and something darker on top? This would be a good thing. When you say: The biodiesel looks cloudy white. I'm a bit confused. If the biodiesel is white, you wouldn't be able to see the very thin white line between. It would just be white on top of white. Is the biodiesel layer (on top) darker than the thin white line? Again, a good thing. However, it doesn't look quite like what J2F described as good fuel. Do you mean after doing a wash test? It will not yet be good fuel. It will take more than shaking with water once to get the contaminants out of the BD. After 3 or 4 washes, the wash water should be clear and the same pH as the water that was added. The BD will be cloudy because water will be suspended in it. The next step is to dry the BD. Heat it gently. You might put your tube of BD in a hot water bath. As the mix heats up water will fall out and the BD will clear. I do my wash tests in the same PET bottles described above. Equal volumes of water and BD~150ml of each. Shake vigorously. With top closed, invert, and drain after water settles out. Add clean water repeat. The last batch of 6.0g separated the quickest, less than a minute - the others longer up to 15 minutes or so. It might be that your KOH is not 90% pure @ 90% purity you would use 5.45g KOH/L of unused oil @ 85% purity you would use 5.76g KOH/L of unused oil Doing the methanol quality test on the BD before you wash it or after you wash and then dry it would tell us more about your success in achieving a complete conversion of the veg oil. And, with the rest of the batch in a jar in the garage, each one has turned to mush. Looks like the inside of a melon or something. You're losing me here. Are you referring to the glycerin mix separated from the BD? Just another word of caution. When you do succeed at 1L test batches and feel comfortable w. the process. scale up gardually. We can talk aboput this another time. Dinner calls. Best of Luck to You, Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Sorry for the excitement and frustration. I've made 4 or 5 1L batches with virgin peanut oil with no luck. 1L Clean, Virgin, Peanut Oil 200ml Methanol 5.4g, 5.5g, 5.6g, 6.0g of 90% KOH (All with very similar results) 55°C Temp via Hotplate Agitation: Fast Stirring for 30 minutes via Hotplate The original separation looks great - waited at least 12 hours but separates in about 2 hours. Obvious layers with a slightly hazy, pale yellow biodiesel layer and clear, darker by-product layer. Separated by pouring the biodiesel off the top. Looks to be about 1.1L of biodiesel for each batch. It's slightly colder in my garage, but not outside temperate. I'd say roughly 55°F or so. Each wash test was with 20ml of product and 20ml of water in a 50ml plastic tube. The final wash test I performed inside with warmer water. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very thin white line between. The biodiesel looks cloudy white. The last batch of 6.0g separated the quickest, less than a minute - the others longer up to 15 minutes or so. However
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil
Roger: Peanut oil is about 75-80% oleic and linoleic, with the remainder almost entirely saturated (palmitic, stearic, and longer). I would expect biodiesel made from it to show precipitates at temperatures lower than maybe 65 F. I'm not clear from your wash test whether you are actually washing your biodiesel before the test -- this might help :-). pH really only makes sense when referring to a water-based solution. Sticking pH paper or pH meter into biodiesel gives spurious results in most cases. I often measure the pH of my wash water as a check of how much lye and soaps may be left in the biodiesel, but never the biodiesel (or oil) itself. It's ALWAYS a good idea to titrate, even virgin oil. Many oils, including palm and olive (don't know about peanut) have high FFA levels as typically sold. On Mar 31, 2008, at 9:41 AM, Roger wrote: Sorry for the excitement and frustration. I've made 4 or 5 1L batches with virgin peanut oil with no luck. 1L Clean, Virgin, Peanut Oil 200ml Methanol 5.4g, 5.5g, 5.6g, 6.0g of 90% KOH (All with very similar results) 55°C Temp via Hotplate Agitation: Fast Stirring for 30 minutes via Hotplate The original separation looks great - waited at least 12 hours but separates in about 2 hours. Obvious layers with a slightly hazy, pale yellow biodiesel layer and clear, darker by-product layer. Separated by pouring the biodiesel off the top. Looks to be about 1.1L of biodiesel for each batch. It's slightly colder in my garage, but not outside temperate. I'd say roughly 55°F or so. Each wash test was with 20ml of product and 20ml of water in a 50ml plastic tube. The final wash test I performed inside with warmer water. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very thin white line between. The biodiesel looks cloudy white. The last batch of 6.0g separated the quickest, less than a minute - the others longer up to 15 minutes or so. However, it doesn't look quite like what J2F described as good fuel. And, with the rest of the batch in a jar in the garage, each one has turned to mush. Looks like the inside of a melon or something. My first thought was that peanut oil was different enough from vegetable oil that I would need to titrate it and change the KOH amount. However, I wasn't having much luck with the pH meter. One time it would be add 0.4gm of KOH and the next time 0.01g would be too much. I thought I didn't know how to use the meter. The processor I made (assuming I would be using it by now) has 2) 75 gallon tanks with individual heaters, controls, pumps, and stirrers. It can be used as a 150gal unit or a 2-stage 75gal unit. (I've attached a picture.) I can't wait to try it but haven't used it yet for fear of making a lot of soap. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thomas Kelly wrote: Roger, Back up a bit. Has anyone tried this? It's all I had laying around to start with but I keep getting a questionable result. By tried this do you mean peanut oil? If so, I have run batches with peanut oil mixed in. Since it was new, I tried the same recipe for virgin vegetable oil and it didn't really pass the wash test and as soon as it got cold, it turned into sludge. Got cold???The wash test is done at room temp 70-ish F (20-ish C) I made a 2x75Gal machine that I am dying to use and the used oil is piling up. (What's a 2x75Gal machine? a 75 Gal processor? 150 Gal processor?) Hold on now cowboy . let's not sign up for a marathon run before we up and walking. You don't want to turn gallons of good oil into gallons of goop. You might start by telling us step-by-step what you are doing. Ex 1L fresh, unused vegetable oil 200ml methanol 5.45 g of 90% KOH Method of agitation? Temp? 30 minutes reaction time Do you get a clear split? How long do you let it settle? How do you separate the settled glycerine mix from the biodiesel (separatory funnel?) Describe the results of the wash test, done at room temp, as to time for separation + appearance of layers. While it is important to be able to measure accurately, especially for 1L test batches, I have gotten along fine w/o a pH meter. Best Wishes, Tom - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 10:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil Has anyone tried this? It's all I had laying around to start with but I keep getting a questionable result. Since it was new, I tried the same recipe for virgin vegetable oil and it didn't really pass the wash test and as soon as it got cold, it turned into sludge. I wish there was more pictures
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batch Success......Thanks Keith
Hello Marc Good for you! Sometimes it takes perseverance, but it pays off, well done. Thankyou for your thanks, you are most welcome, I'm sure everyone else thinks so too. All best Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Finally after many months of failed or mediocre wash test results I am achieving quick and clean separation of unwashed biodiesel(wvo) and water with a paper thin white layer, and all this as a result of the useful and encouraging information and instructions provided by JTF! To any of you who are about to take on the task of making quality biodiesel pay attention to Keith's emphasis on taking one's time to learn the process. I must relay and repeat how important accurate titration, quality catalyst, proper heat control, and proper agitation are for successful wvo test batches. Regarding titration I started out with a good digital scale and pH meter, but poor volume measurement instruments(2ml eyedroppers) resulted in too much catalyst = failed wash test. Free 1ml graduated syringes work beautifully. Regarding catalyst, initially I purchased at a small department store a 3kg tub of lye that turned out to be poorly sealed resulting in = failed test batches. Quality KOH measured out while in clear plastic bags has proved to work much better. In the test batch processing department, I went through 2 leaky blenders before I put together a permanent system much like the one on JTF that relies on consistent heat and agitation. Combined, these variables have inevitably led to complete reactions that are washed free from emulsions. Now on to scaling up. Thanks to Keith and anyone else that has contributed information on the JTF website. Peace Marc ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Test Batch Success......Thanks Keith
Finally after many months of failed or mediocre wash test results I am achieving quick and clean separation of unwashed biodiesel(wvo) and water with a paper thin white layer, and all this as a result of the useful and encouraging information and instructions provided by JTF! To any of you who are about to take on the task of making quality biodiesel pay attention to Keith's emphasis on taking one's time to learn the process. I must relay and repeat how important accurate titration, quality catalyst, proper heat control, and proper agitation are for successful wvo test batches. Regarding titration I started out with a good digital scale and pH meter, but poor volume measurement instruments(2ml eyedroppers) resulted in too much catalyst = failed wash test. Free 1ml graduated syringes work beautifully. Regarding catalyst, initially I purchased at a small department store a 3kg tub of lye that turned out to be poorly sealed resulting in = failed test batches. Quality KOH measured out while in clear plastic bags has proved to work much better. In the test batch processing department, I went through 2 leaky blenders before I put together a permanent system much like the one on JTF that relies on consistent heat and agitation. Combined, these variables have inevitably led to complete reactions that are washed free from emulsions. Now on to scaling up. Thanks to Keith and anyone else that has contributed information on the JTF website. Peace Marc ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] test please
Yes, I got yr test msg. D.V.S. ManiOn 8/11/06, root [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: please reply if this gets through, i changed email clients, and now ikeep getting rejected emails from [EMAIL PROTECTED]___ Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] test please
please reply if this gets through, i changed email clients, and now i keep getting rejected emails from [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] test please
getting through - Original Message - From: root [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 6:10 PM Subject: [Biofuel] test please please reply if this gets through, i changed email clients, and now i keep getting rejected emails from [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] test please
I do too and I dont have an account with blogger. Its like our posts are being echoed to them Kirkroot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: please reply if this gets through, i changed email clients, and now ikeep getting rejected emails from [EMAIL PROTECTED]___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] test please
well crud, now i have THAT to track down... oh well, thanks folks. On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 18:22 -0500, MK DuPree wrote: getting through - Original Message - From: root [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 6:10 PM Subject: [Biofuel] test please please reply if this gets through, i changed email clients, and now i keep getting rejected emails from [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] test please
got through ken - Original Message - From: root [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 7:10 AM Subject: [Biofuel] test please please reply if this gets through, i changed email clients, and now i keep getting rejected emails from [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] test please
I do too and I dont have an account with blogger. Its like our posts are being echoed to them Kirk That seems to be right Kirk, I can't find out who it is and can't figure out a way to stop it. Probably everybody is receiving them. A bit like the folks who join mailing lists and then leave an auto-reply whenever they leave the office for more than 9.3 nanoseconds. Okay, so it's a bit of a misunderexaggeration but you know what I mean. Anyway, sorry folks, these things are sent to try us, among other things that are also sent to try us, please bear with it, of such is life, as such, it's all part of the Great Golden Tapestry, etc. Thankyou. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner root [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: please reply if this gets through, i changed email clients, and now i keep getting rejected emails from [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Test Batches
I have made a few test batches and they all seem to end up hazy with a dark layer on top. Is this what happens when the reaction is not complete? I use Phenolphthalein and am concerned that it is not working correctly. I checked the PH with PH paper after titrating and the PH was 7. I had to add 2 more ml of lye solution to get the PH to 8. I think this is causing me to have incomplete reactions. Should the BD be hazy after the reaction takes place? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches
I have made a few test batches and they all seem to end up hazy with a dark layer on top. Is this what happens when the reaction is not complete? No, but what's the dark layer on top? Do you mean you think the biodiesel layer is darker than it should be? I use Phenolphthalein and am concerned that it is not working correctly. I checked the PH with PH paper after titrating and the PH was 7. I had to add 2 more ml of lye solution to get the PH to 8. Should be 8.5. You're correcting a phenolphthaleihn solution reading with pH test strips? That doesn't sound wise. If your phenolphthalein is fresh it should be fine. Store it in a dark place. I think this is causing me to have incomplete reactions. Should the BD be hazy after the reaction takes place? Usually. Are you using SVO or WVO? I don't know what method you're using and you don't describe what you did. Do it this way: Make your first test batch http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodnew Check your test batches with the wash-test: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches
Hi Keith, I'm not sure but I had that first experience too. I just posted my results a few minutes ago. If you look at the picture at the JTF Make your own biodiesel contd page (biodiesel_make2.html) you will notice a thin layer seemingly on the top portion. I noticed that too when I made my test batch yesterday. It that a reflection or something? best regards, Ken Uy (tanuki) - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 3:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches I have made a few test batches and they all seem to end up hazy with a dark layer on top. Is this what happens when the reaction is not complete? No, but what's the dark layer on top? Do you mean you think the biodiesel layer is darker than it should be? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batch Help
Looks to me like all you need to do is wash and you'll have good biodiesel Bobby From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Test Batch Help Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 21:09:01 Could somebody give me a clue as to what I am doing wrong? All my batches except one have turned out pale in color. I am using new oil in 1 liter batches. My measurements are accurate. Taking a big breath now... Here is a picture of my samples. http://evocm.com/ethanol/pvc_pics/DSC03856.JPG Most have turned out looking like the jar on the right. I thought by looking at them one of you could give me a hint. In the meantime I'll keep plugging away. Any help is appreciated. Ben ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batch Help
Hello Ben Could somebody give me a clue as to what I am doing wrong? All my batches except one have turned out pale in color. I am using new oil in 1 liter batches. My measurements are accurate. Taking a big breath now... Here is a picture of my samples. http://evocm.com/ethanol/pvc_pics/DSC03856.JPGhttp://evocm.com/etha nol/pvc_pics/DSC03856.JPG Most have turned out looking like the jar on the right. I thought by looking at them one of you could give me a hint. In the meantime I'll keep plugging away. Any help is appreciated. Ben Why do you think there's a problem with the colour? The colour's fine, but that's a LOT of glycerine by-product for virgin oil. What exactly did you do? Anyway, do a wash-test and if all's well go ahead ahead with washing. Wash-test: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality Washing: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Test Batch Help
Ben, looks like it just needs a wash, i had the same questions when i started, but it is usually kind of pale when you use new oil. it doesn't tend to be darker until you use WVO. jason ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Test Batch Help .....Thanks
http://evocm.com/ethanol/pvc_pics/DSC03856.JPG Thanks guys, I thought I was doing something wrong. Apparently, most of the pictures I see are wvo. Keith, the sample is a combination of two pour offsso there is a liters worth of glycerin in the jar. I dont have any translucent containers big enough to hold an entire batch yet, but I do have a 1000 or so mason jars. Thanks for the Help Ben ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Test Batch Help
Could somebody give me a clue as to what I am doing wrong? All my batches except one have turned out pale in color. I am using new oil in 1 liter batches. My measurements are accurate. Taking a big breath now... Here is a picture of my samples. http://evocm.com/ethanol/pvc_pics/DSC03856.JPG Most have turned out looking like the jar on the right. I thought by looking at them one of you could give me a hint. In the meantime I'll keep plugging away. Any help is appreciated. Ben ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] test
Mail failed. For further assistance, please contact! ** ** WARNING: WinProxy has detected a virus in file attached to this e-mail message! The attachment has been automatically removed to protect your network. WinProxy Administrator: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/28/05 11:20:11 WinProxy (Version 5.1 R1c (5.0.50.8)) - http://www.Ositis.com/ Antivirus Vendor: Panda Software Scan Engine Version: 4.7.0.2_4.1.6.408 Pattern File Version: 3.103390 (Timestamp: 2005/08/27 08:09:35) Machine name: SERVER2005 Machine IP address: 192.168.1.100 Server: 70.85.95.186 Client: 152.96.71.25 Protocol: SMTP Virus: W32/Lovgate.AC.worm found! Attachment: message.pif ** ** ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] test
Mail failed. For further assistance, please contact! ** ** WARNING: WinProxy has detected a virus in file attached to this e-mail message! The attachment has been automatically removed to protect your network. WinProxy Administrator: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/28/05 11:20:11 WinProxy (Version 5.1 R1c (5.0.50.8)) - http://www.Ositis.com/ Antivirus Vendor: Panda Software Scan Engine Version: 4.7.0.2_4.1.6.408 Pattern File Version: 3.103390 (Timestamp: 2005/08/27 08:09:35) Machine name: SERVER2005 Machine IP address: 192.168.1.100 Server: 70.85.95.186 Client: 152.96.71.25 Protocol: SMTP Virus: W32/Lovgate.AC.worm found! Attachment: message.pif ** ** ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Test data on SVO/WVO fuel; better than diesel.
i would definitely like to see test data. -chris b. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Test data on SVO/WVO fuel; better than diesel.
Hello, I have a 97 Passat burning SVO, and would be interested in the newer Passat, but had heard that the newer model TDI (2004 and up?), which is more powerful, might be problematic because of more advanced, higher pressure injectors (or something to that effect. Have you heard such a concern? Chris In our every deliberation, we must consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations. -The Great Law Of The Iroquois Confederacy ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Test batch no. 2
This message was sent earlier (2005-01-05) but seems to have been lost somewhere... Now i am (almost) ready to make the first bigger batch and do not want to be a not so proud owner of 100 l. of glop.. Could anyone encourage me to move on with this oil (of course with titration and so on) or tell me not to with some hints about how to proceed..? Thank You Lars A Lars Andersson Vstanskogsgatan 7 590 71 Ljungsbro 013-66574/070-5334054 Good evening everybody and thank You for this amount of information communicated here. This is my first post here after at least six months of just reading and thinking while building a reactor from 200l drums. I made a quick page (for some reason with very poor picture quality, please excuse that) about the test batch mentioned by GoHoff and it all looked quite allright to me but after the water test i could not resist to shake it once more the next day and after that it separated again but i got some kind of fluff between the water and the BD (no pictures of that).. It lies on top of the water and looks bad... Is that something that a normal wash would take care of or something that is bad ?? I have bubble washed the rest of the batch in another PET bottle turned upside down with the bottom cut of and a outlet in the screw plug.. The fourth water (this is better than siphoning (??) the used wash water out but some of the milky water still gets caught in there) is very clear. http://user.tninet.se/~qrg733j/Krympta/Snoddastest_1.html Any comments on the rsults of my test batch would be very appreciated. Lars A Lars Andersson Vstanskogsgatan 7 590 71 Ljungsbro 013-66574/070-5334054 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] test message - multiples
to myself (NOT the list) thank you. -- Martin K http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] test
___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test
Biofuel Readers, Are they ways to influence U.S. local cities to officially adopt biofuels, alternative transporation, and smart growth? Yes, via the General Plan. In the United States each city is required to adopt a General Plan. By state law, the General Plan should contain elements. The General Plan requires public participation and is an avenue for you to influence public policy to include biofuels and clean fuels via the Circlation Element and the Conservation Element, - cities may not have the same elements. For a general background on the General Plan, please refer to see below weblinks: http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/ENVI/genplans.html#intro What is a general plan? General plans have many synonyms, among them comprehensive plan, development plan, land-use plan, master plan, and urban plan. Simply stated, a general plan is the official statement of a municipal legislative body which sets forth its major policies concerning desirable future physical development... (Kent, The Urban general plan, 1964). As further elaborated in Planning made easy (Toner, et al., 1994), a general plan is: --A public guide to community decision making --An assessment of the community's needs --A statement of community values, goals, objectives --A blueprint for the community's physical development --A public document adopted by the government --Continuously updated as conditions change Note that California state law requires that each city general plan contain the following seven (7) elements: 1)circulation (transportation)! 2)conservation! 3)housing 4)land use 5)noise 6)open-space 7)safety Have a Prosperous New Year. Phillip Wolfe Certificate in Urban Regional Planning BA-BioScience/Environment MBA-Planning ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] test
-- Martin K http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
again. I will post the results when done. John Keith Addison wrote: Thankyou John. I hope this discussion can resume now. Best wishes Keith Addison List owner to todd and the list in general, I would like to sincerely apologize for allowing myself to get involved in this flame war. It was inappropriate and not at all constructive. Further I apologize for my use of inappropriate language. I still have unanswered questions that I hope I can get answered here. I will continue to post the results of my tests in the hope that they will further the goal of making the production of high quality biodiesel accessible to all. Sincerely, John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
Not that you would be interested to know... So called linscott...aka dana linscott...aka dana can still be found over at the biodiesel yahoogroups performing exactly the same manner to which you have just describedunfortunately for most. Late... John(yet another John) - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test Hello John Actually, it takes a brave man to tell a few home truths to John Tillman (aka tillyfromparadise, aka about 30 false IDs created to give the impression of group support) - you run the risk of precipitating a tireless, relentless, truly mindless, vicious and utterly integrity-free hate war against you for the next three years or so. I really hope that won't happen to you. In fact it doesn't even need home truths - what started his hate war against me, Journey to Forever, Aleks Kac (who he's never encountered in any way), Todd Swearingen, Steve Spence, and the Biofuel list? Nothing. That's right, nothing at all. I asked him some questions, that needed asking, without being in any way confrontational or rude or anything, and he decided I'd insulted him. Nobody else could see it, lots of people asked him to come off it, but no. Hate hate hate! Ever since, for the last three years. One sick puppy - a liar, a thief, a plagiarist, a multiple imposter, all very well documented. You can read a history of it here, if you really want to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Biodiesel/message/4254 Actually there are two of them, they often work in concert. The other one's a total creep named Linscott, who used to be a member here until, to loud public demand, very belatedly, after he'd wrought a lot of harm, he got the boot, also about three years ago or something. He's has lost no opportunity to stir it up wherever he can ever since. There's some background on him here: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/37931/ A right couple of psychos, these two. Apart from the above ref (necessary), instead of using the list as a platform to wage war from, I've been at considerable pains to keep this vomitous stuff away from the Biofuel list - unlike Tillscott, who've taken it everywhere they can and totalled several previously useful forums in the doing, and done the biofuels movement a deal of damage. As if they care. It's easy to be destructive. And yes, both of them lurk around here whispering their noxious BS to newcomers offlist. There's not much we can do about it, but we figured long ago that if you can't figure that out for yourself you probably won't be able to do much else worth half a damn anyway, and so it's proved, you being a case in point. There's also someone here right now who proves the opposite case in point, but that's his problem. He's going to have to choose, he can't have it both ways. In fact, interestingly, despite all the wreckage elsewhere, these two maniacs haven't succeeded in doing us any damage at all, not me, nor Journey to Forever, nor the Biofuel list, nor Todd, Aleks and Steve. For our part, only damaging *truths* could do that, and there aren't any. Anyway, John, I'm glad you put it in perspective, but generally we can do very well without any acknowledgement of this worthless stuff, thankyou very much. As for this: I would like to state to the list in general and especially kieth that no one should take any of this personally. This is how these creeps can distort things. John, if I got furious and took it personally every time somebody here or elsewhere criticised something at Journey to Forever, how would we ever have developed the resources there the way we have? Criticism and critical thinking are positive, or should be, not just a personal attack. It's a major factor at this forum and one reason we started it in the first place. There's a lot of original work at the Journey to Forever website biofuels section, but even there we can acknowledge a big debt to the Biofuel list and what we've learnt from the group over the years, and I have often acknowledged that. Genuine criticism is of course always welcome, right or wrong. Then it gets debated and the whole thing moves forward. Axe-grinding is not welcome. They're easily distinguished. And this: also I have observed that keith frequently expresses frustration that things get gone over again and again Do I? I've seen other people saying that. I just wish (often!) that more people would make better use of the archives, but also I can remember saying quite a few times that a question's been asked before but no harm in asking again, and pulling previous answers out of the archives for an airing rather than just giving the link. It can generate new responses, and even if not it makes the stuff easier to find in the archives next time. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
Appal Energy wrote: John, I don't know why you find it necessary to proclaim specific matters to be sore spots or as having been tak[en]... personally. because you are being pissy about this whole thing. What I do find perplexing is the amazing number of people who don't read or follow instructions when available, modify them under the premise of experimentation, even when they're trying out their first batches and should be adhering to them more rigidly than any other time, and then proclaim that they don't work, or aren't reproducable. you will note that the reason that I posted it was to do a sort of peer review process. you pointed out that I made a mistake in my experimentation and then I took steps to correct that mistake. What I find even more amazing (actually, not) is the fact that those very same people, once it is discerned or they reveal that the available instructions weren't adhered to, continue to find fault with everything but their own failure to read and follow. you will note that in my first reply to this I said that I understood that the volume could be a problem, then in my second I said that I would make a bigger test batch and repeat the experiment with the suggested volume. My personal belief is that if you want to dally in your laboratory, great. But if you wish to lay claims that aren't accurate pursuant to dalliances that are at great variance from any instructions (baseline) that you might imply as having followed, then you probably deserve any frustrations that acrue. Mind you the instructions did say to add 150 ml of water, not 150 ml of icecubes, or chilled water, or even heated water, much less 4 ml in a culture tube. (Hopefully, you did take note of the mention of magnified error when working in such micro-quantities.) the reason that I did this experiment at all was because I kept making 1L batches following the instructions to the letter that washed nicely but failed the quality test. I figured I could save oil by doing micro tests. you pointed out the error in that and I am taking steps to eliminate that error. And if your preference is to declare that your failing to run the middle course is a sore spot with others who might point this out, then I'd have to say with certainty you're welcome to whatever frustration you create for yourself. Yes indeed, you are entitled to them. what??? I suggested that others with cold water may have problems, luc backed me up. My bet is that if you're sharp enough to conduct all your variances and question your results, you might eventually learn from error and begin to acknowledge the basic necessity of using (and following) a map when venturing into the unknown, rather than just sticking a wetted finger into the air and presuming that all winds blow from the north. following the map doesn't yield arrival at the destination and I start questioning the map. I am doing the best to have peer review of my questionings. if you were a good scientist you would say silly john, you made an error here and I would say oh, I am sorry, you are right, let me fix that and try again and we would have advancement. Nothing personal. Just taking note of your obstinance. I post results which are questioned and then agree to make the steps to fix the questions. I ask more questions and answer those asked of me, you wave you dick around and call me a bad scientist without answering the majority of my questions. who is being obstinate? nothing personal, just making note of your hipocracy. John Todd Swearingen Post script: We've been washing with well/ground water, averaging ~55*F, for the past five years now. Do you think perhaps we should wedge open the shop doors and windows during the winter months in hopes that washes and reactions will work better? There are reasons why shops and labs are kept at reasonable temperatures, the first and foremost is not just to keep the human occupants fuzzy and comfortable. - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 1:28 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test Todd, sorry to have stuck a sore spot with you, please stop taking this all personally. I never meant any of this as an attack at anyone, I am picking at things until I understand them. the purpose of this forum seems to be streamlining the process of learning. also I have observed that keith frequently expresses frustration that things get gone over again and again, lets make the instructions more specific to avoid this. Appal Energy wrote: John, I still think that temperature has a drastic effect on seperation time And you're correct. But there aren't too many people out there who are going to be washing with water direct from a glacier fed stream. I live in the northeast, my basement is cold and the pipes run through there, this has an effect
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
I certainly hope I didn't hear you right. And if I did, I suggest you find a new approach, because the antagonistic one you're pursuing certainly isn't going to gain you anything. I'd also suggest that you reread those answers given you. You will find that virtually every one of your questions (as few as they were) and a number of your statements were addressed. Since you choose to ignore that minor detail and opt instead to issue insult, distort what was actually written, pencil in what wasn't and instigate arguement, one can only be lead to believe that answers are not what you're primary interest is. Good day. - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test todd, Appal Energy wrote: John, I don't know why you find it necessary to proclaim specific matters to be sore spots or as having been tak[en]... personally. because you are being pissy about this whole thing. What I do find perplexing is the amazing number of people who don't read or follow instructions when available, modify them under the premise of experimentation, even when they're trying out their first batches and should be adhering to them more rigidly than any other time, and then proclaim that they don't work, or aren't reproducable. you will note that the reason that I posted it was to do a sort of peer review process. you pointed out that I made a mistake in my experimentation and then I took steps to correct that mistake. What I find even more amazing (actually, not) is the fact that those very same people, once it is discerned or they reveal that the available instructions weren't adhered to, continue to find fault with everything but their own failure to read and follow. you will note that in my first reply to this I said that I understood that the volume could be a problem, then in my second I said that I would make a bigger test batch and repeat the experiment with the suggested volume. My personal belief is that if you want to dally in your laboratory, great. But if you wish to lay claims that aren't accurate pursuant to dalliances that are at great variance from any instructions (baseline) that you might imply as having followed, then you probably deserve any frustrations that acrue. Mind you the instructions did say to add 150 ml of water, not 150 ml of icecubes, or chilled water, or even heated water, much less 4 ml in a culture tube. (Hopefully, you did take note of the mention of magnified error when working in such micro-quantities.) the reason that I did this experiment at all was because I kept making 1L batches following the instructions to the letter that washed nicely but failed the quality test. I figured I could save oil by doing micro tests. you pointed out the error in that and I am taking steps to eliminate that error. And if your preference is to declare that your failing to run the middle course is a sore spot with others who might point this out, then I'd have to say with certainty you're welcome to whatever frustration you create for yourself. Yes indeed, you are entitled to them. what??? I suggested that others with cold water may have problems, luc backed me up. My bet is that if you're sharp enough to conduct all your variances and question your results, you might eventually learn from error and begin to acknowledge the basic necessity of using (and following) a map when venturing into the unknown, rather than just sticking a wetted finger into the air and presuming that all winds blow from the north. following the map doesn't yield arrival at the destination and I start questioning the map. I am doing the best to have peer review of my questionings. if you were a good scientist you would say silly john, you made an error here and I would say oh, I am sorry, you are right, let me fix that and try again and we would have advancement. Nothing personal. Just taking note of your obstinance. I post results which are questioned and then agree to make the steps to fix the questions. I ask more questions and answer those asked of me, you wave you dick around and call me a bad scientist without answering the majority of my questions. who is being obstinate? nothing personal, just making note of your hipocracy. John Todd Swearingen Post script: We've been washing with well/ground water, averaging ~55*F, for the past five years now. Do you think perhaps we should wedge open the shop doors and windows during the winter months in hopes that washes and reactions will work better? There are reasons why shops and labs are kept at reasonable temperatures, the first and foremost is not just to keep the human occupants fuzzy and comfortable. - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 1:28 AM Subject
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
Hi Keith, Not that you would be interested to know... So called linscott...aka dana linscott...aka dana can still be found over at the biodiesel yahoogroups performing exactly the same manner to which you have just describedunfortunately for most. Yup, he's there, and Tillman, and a bunch of others too. That used to be a good group. Very few of the longer-term members ever post there now. Mostly just this misbegotten bunch leading newcomers astray. Sad. People of the lie: http://www.amasci.com/maglev/levbill1.html The Pathological Dishonesty Disease Late... John(yet another John) :-) A fine name, to be sure. Best wishes Keith - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test Hello John Actually, it takes a brave man to tell a few home truths to John Tillman (aka tillyfromparadise, aka about 30 false IDs created to give the impression of group support) - you run the risk of precipitating a tireless, relentless, truly mindless, vicious and utterly integrity-free hate war against you for the next three years or so. I really hope that won't happen to you. In fact it doesn't even need home truths - what started his hate war against me, Journey to Forever, Aleks Kac (who he's never encountered in any way), Todd Swearingen, Steve Spence, and the Biofuel list? Nothing. That's right, nothing at all. I asked him some questions, that needed asking, without being in any way confrontational or rude or anything, and he decided I'd insulted him. Nobody else could see it, lots of people asked him to come off it, but no. Hate hate hate! Ever since, for the last three years. One sick puppy - a liar, a thief, a plagiarist, a multiple imposter, all very well documented. You can read a history of it here, if you really want to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Biodiesel/message/4254 Actually there are two of them, they often work in concert. The other one's a total creep named Linscott, who used to be a member here until, to loud public demand, very belatedly, after he'd wrought a lot of harm, he got the boot, also about three years ago or something. He's has lost no opportunity to stir it up wherever he can ever since. There's some background on him here: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/37931/ A right couple of psychos, these two. Apart from the above ref (necessary), instead of using the list as a platform to wage war from, I've been at considerable pains to keep this vomitous stuff away from the Biofuel list - unlike Tillscott, who've taken it everywhere they can and totalled several previously useful forums in the doing, and done the biofuels movement a deal of damage. As if they care. It's easy to be destructive. And yes, both of them lurk around here whispering their noxious BS to newcomers offlist. There's not much we can do about it, but we figured long ago that if you can't figure that out for yourself you probably won't be able to do much else worth half a damn anyway, and so it's proved, you being a case in point. There's also someone here right now who proves the opposite case in point, but that's his problem. He's going to have to choose, he can't have it both ways. In fact, interestingly, despite all the wreckage elsewhere, these two maniacs haven't succeeded in doing us any damage at all, not me, nor Journey to Forever, nor the Biofuel list, nor Todd, Aleks and Steve. For our part, only damaging *truths* could do that, and there aren't any. Anyway, John, I'm glad you put it in perspective, but generally we can do very well without any acknowledgement of this worthless stuff, thankyou very much. As for this: I would like to state to the list in general and especially kieth that no one should take any of this personally. This is how these creeps can distort things. John, if I got furious and took it personally every time somebody here or elsewhere criticised something at Journey to Forever, how would we ever have developed the resources there the way we have? Criticism and critical thinking are positive, or should be, not just a personal attack. It's a major factor at this forum and one reason we started it in the first place. There's a lot of original work at the Journey to Forever website biofuels section, but even there we can acknowledge a big debt to the Biofuel list and what we've learnt from the group over the years, and I have often acknowledged that. Genuine criticism is of course always welcome, right or wrong. Then it gets debated and the whole thing moves forward. Axe-grinding is not welcome. They're easily distinguished. And this: also I have observed that keith frequently expresses frustration that things get gone over again and again Do I? I've seen other people saying that. I just wish (often!) that more people would make better use of the archives
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
I would like to sincerely apologize for allowing myself to get involved in this flame war. It was inappropriate and not at all constructive. Further I apologize for my use of inappropriate language. I still have unanswered questions that I hope I can get answered here. I will continue to post the results of my tests in the hope that they will further the goal of making the production of high quality biodiesel accessible to all. Sincerely, John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
I hope this discussion can resume now. Best wishes Keith Addison List owner to todd and the list in general, I would like to sincerely apologize for allowing myself to get involved in this flame war. It was inappropriate and not at all constructive. Further I apologize for my use of inappropriate language. I still have unanswered questions that I hope I can get answered here. I will continue to post the results of my tests in the hope that they will further the goal of making the production of high quality biodiesel accessible to all. Sincerely, John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
I still think that temperature has a drastic effect on seperation time And you're correct. But there aren't too many people out there who are going to be washing with water direct from a glacier fed stream. I am pointing out a sticking point that people may have (if I am having this problem other people are probably having it too). Some people get stuck. Some eventually recognize it for what it is and adapt. one of the problems that I have with all of this is that the instructions are really general Not really. They're pretty specific. They may not have had an exact temperature pasted all over them, but they were specific beyond that. You could at least note that you opted to go off the beaten path and then lay claim as to unreproducable. That in itself is a little bit misleading to those who read it or who come to it later. Making biodiesel is not rocket science. It's not exactly bucket science either, as you have to use a little common sense and stick somewhere close to the middle of what's known to work. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test Resending the following because I am unsure if it was caught in the outage: Understood. I will produce a batch large enough to make several runs at the 150mL test and post the results. I consumed the remains of my last test batch in a 125mL run (it was all that was left) and I followed your agitation (10 times up and down violently). it had seperated in to two clearly stratified sections within abbout 1 minute with 60*F water however it still had lots of tiny bubbles in both parts (sort of a milky yellow and a milky white). is that what you mean by clear seperation? I still think that temperature has a drastic effect on seperation time which I will test and post the results and methods of my experiment. I would like to state to the list in general and especially kieth that no one should take any of this personally. I am posting my results so that people can point out errors. I am pointing out a sticking point that people may have (if I am having this problem other people are probably having it too). any good science is a process of peer review. one posts methods and results others duplicate ones experiments and if they prove reporducable and consistant then they are seen by the community to be valid. one of the problems that I have with all of this is that the instructions are really general and I fear that there are factors that are important but are not mentioned such that they can be controlled. John Appal Energy wrote: John Guttridge, If you're looking for reproducability, you need to follow baseline, not modify a test/experiment so as to suit your own preference or conditions. You've apparently neglected to consider increases in sampling error that occur when conducting tests at micro-levels/volumes. You compound any flaw in your final evaluations by conducting not only the wash but the esterification with miniscule volumes. Unless your preparations are made with electronic scales to the thousandth of a gram, your alcohol and feedstock volumes determined by weight using the same scale, rather than relying upon glassware that forewarns of + or - 5% error factor, not to mention the + or - 10% human error factor (whether you know what end of the miniscus to take your measurements from or not) you only compound the degree of errors that are or can be represented by your conclusions. There is an enormous world of difference between reproducablity/results achieved on 150 ml samples and samples no bigger than single liters, even when conducted by professionals with decades of experience. As to your questioning the time frame that I mentioned for separation of well processed fuel, you need to take notice of the difference between the agitation period stated in my post and the general guideline you opted to modify. You also need to take notice that the wash test is not represented as anything more than a quick and simple manner of determing how an operator may care or feel reasonably safe to proceed with what he or she may believe to be biodiesel. The guidelines that are offered on this list and at Journey to Forever are intended to assist the general public in getting their fuel near or to the level that would pass the scrutiny of spec fuel, despite the fact that they may be working on dimestore budgets. If you can afford the luxury and it's absolute guarantees of finished product quality that you seek, I would suggest that you establish a procedural regimen, produce what you have reason to believe is a well-crafted product and then submit the sample to the testing methods established in D-6751. You'll quickly surprise yourself at how easily that standard can be neared or met in a meticulous homebrewer's environment
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
- Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test John, I still think that temperature has a drastic effect on seperation time And you're correct. But there aren't too many people out there who are going to be washing with water direct from a glacier fed stream. Except that I have posted a few times stating that I use well water direct and not word one was ever mentioned until I started asking if wash water temperature is important. Point is, not that I went without for awhile, but that now the question IS being adressed. I had a few problems with emulsion, but only in the last two batches when the weather changed and it started getting cold. Prior to that, and none of the variables had changed, everything was clean and precise and good fuel resulted every time. This question of wash water temperature needs to be added as a requisite in the instructional stages of making good fuel. Just assuming that Eskimos will not be interested doesn't make it. So it seems that now it has been addressed, and I for one am very pleased that it has. Now it only leaves to have that information readily available to anyone wanting to learn the methodology of home brewing biodiesel. I suggest that it be added in the washing section at JtF somewhere. That is where I got my education from, and I must say that I am very pleased with what I was taught, so in the interest of those coming afterward it should be added somewhere evident. I am now in the process of not only adding a second settling tank (insulated of course) but also of adding a water pre-heat tank using a 115V immersion heater to warm up the well water I will again be using to wash in the Spring when I get my production back on line. Just leaving this information in the archives doesn't cut it either, it needs to be accessible in the tutorials.(Sorry Keith, I don't want to tell you what to do, but this seems to be an important detail in the end goal of proper biodiesel production.) It obviously has been an oversight, and that is part of what this forum is all about, the betterment of the end user product, so there it is. Luc ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
sorry to have stuck a sore spot with you, please stop taking this all personally. I never meant any of this as an attack at anyone, I am picking at things until I understand them. the purpose of this forum seems to be streamlining the process of learning. also I have observed that keith frequently expresses frustration that things get gone over again and again, lets make the instructions more specific to avoid this. Appal Energy wrote: John, I still think that temperature has a drastic effect on seperation time And you're correct. But there aren't too many people out there who are going to be washing with water direct from a glacier fed stream. I live in the northeast, my basement is cold and the pipes run through there, this has an effect. that doesn't sound that uncommon. I am pointing out a sticking point that people may have (if I am having this problem other people are probably having it too). Some people get stuck. Some eventually recognize it for what it is and adapt. right, so lets put it in the instructions so that no one gets stuck in the first place. as you may have noticed I am of the second group, now I want to make things different for the next batch of newbies. one of the problems that I have with all of this is that the instructions are really general Not really. They're pretty specific. They may not have had an exact temperature pasted all over them, but they were specific beyond that. You could at least note that you opted to go off the beaten path and then lay claim as to unreproducable. That in itself is a little bit misleading to those who read it or who come to it later. there was no mention of temperature. that is a factor that can cause problems, I would say that makes the instructions fairly general. mix 150mL of that with 150mL of this and shake the hell out of it for 10 seconds, let sit for 30 minutes and see what you get is pretty general. Making biodiesel is not rocket science. It's not exactly bucket science either, as you have to use a little common sense and stick somewhere close to the middle of what's known to work. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test Resending the following because I am unsure if it was caught in the outage: Understood. I will produce a batch large enough to make several runs at the 150mL test and post the results. I consumed the remains of my last test batch in a 125mL run (it was all that was left) and I followed your agitation (10 times up and down violently). it had seperated in to two clearly stratified sections within abbout 1 minute with 60*F water however it still had lots of tiny bubbles in both parts (sort of a milky yellow and a milky white). is that what you mean by clear seperation? I still think that temperature has a drastic effect on seperation time which I will test and post the results and methods of my experiment. I would like to state to the list in general and especially kieth that no one should take any of this personally. I am posting my results so that people can point out errors. I am pointing out a sticking point that people may have (if I am having this problem other people are probably having it too). any good science is a process of peer review. one posts methods and results others duplicate ones experiments and if they prove reporducable and consistant then they are seen by the community to be valid. one of the problems that I have with all of this is that the instructions are really general and I fear that there are factors that are important but are not mentioned such that they can be controlled. John Appal Energy wrote: John Guttridge, If you're looking for reproducability, you need to follow baseline, not modify a test/experiment so as to suit your own preference or conditions. You've apparently neglected to consider increases in sampling error that occur when conducting tests at micro-levels/volumes. You compound any flaw in your final evaluations by conducting not only the wash but the esterification with miniscule volumes. Unless your preparations are made with electronic scales to the thousandth of a gram, your alcohol and feedstock volumes determined by weight using the same scale, rather than relying upon glassware that forewarns of + or - 5% error factor, not to mention the + or - 10% human error factor (whether you know what end of the miniscus to take your measurements from or not) you only compound the degree of errors that are or can be represented by your conclusions. There is an enormous world of difference between reproducablity/results achieved on 150 ml samples and samples no bigger than single liters, even when conducted by professionals with decades of experience. As to your questioning the time frame that I mentioned for separation
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
I don't know why you find it necessary to proclaim specific matters to be sore spots or as having been tak[en]... personally. What I do find perplexing is the amazing number of people who don't read or follow instructions when available, modify them under the premise of experimentation, even when they're trying out their first batches and should be adhering to them more rigidly than any other time, and then proclaim that they don't work, or aren't reproducable. What I find even more amazing (actually, not) is the fact that those very same people, once it is discerned or they reveal that the available instructions weren't adhered to, continue to find fault with everything but their own failure to read and follow. My personal belief is that if you want to dally in your laboratory, great. But if you wish to lay claims that aren't accurate pursuant to dalliances that are at great variance from any instructions (baseline) that you might imply as having followed, then you probably deserve any frustrations that acrue. Mind you the instructions did say to add 150 ml of water, not 150 ml of icecubes, or chilled water, or even heated water, much less 4 ml in a culture tube. (Hopefully, you did take note of the mention of magnified error when working in such micro-quantities.) And if your preference is to declare that your failing to run the middle course is a sore spot with others who might point this out, then I'd have to say with certainty you're welcome to whatever frustration you create for yourself. Yes indeed, you are entitled to them. My bet is that if you're sharp enough to conduct all your variances and question your results, you might eventually learn from error and begin to acknowledge the basic necessity of using (and following) a map when venturing into the unknown, rather than just sticking a wetted finger into the air and presuming that all winds blow from the north. Nothing personal. Just taking note of your obstinance. Todd Swearingen Post script: We've been washing with well/ground water, averaging ~55*F, for the past five years now. Do you think perhaps we should wedge open the shop doors and windows during the winter months in hopes that washes and reactions will work better? There are reasons why shops and labs are kept at reasonable temperatures, the first and foremost is not just to keep the human occupants fuzzy and comfortable. - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 1:28 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test Todd, sorry to have stuck a sore spot with you, please stop taking this all personally. I never meant any of this as an attack at anyone, I am picking at things until I understand them. the purpose of this forum seems to be streamlining the process of learning. also I have observed that keith frequently expresses frustration that things get gone over again and again, lets make the instructions more specific to avoid this. Appal Energy wrote: John, I still think that temperature has a drastic effect on seperation time And you're correct. But there aren't too many people out there who are going to be washing with water direct from a glacier fed stream. I live in the northeast, my basement is cold and the pipes run through there, this has an effect. that doesn't sound that uncommon. I am pointing out a sticking point that people may have (if I am having this problem other people are probably having it too). Some people get stuck. Some eventually recognize it for what it is and adapt. right, so lets put it in the instructions so that no one gets stuck in the first place. as you may have noticed I am of the second group, now I want to make things different for the next batch of newbies. one of the problems that I have with all of this is that the instructions are really general Not really. They're pretty specific. They may not have had an exact temperature pasted all over them, but they were specific beyond that. You could at least note that you opted to go off the beaten path and then lay claim as to unreproducable. That in itself is a little bit misleading to those who read it or who come to it later. there was no mention of temperature. that is a factor that can cause problems, I would say that makes the instructions fairly general. mix 150mL of that with 150mL of this and shake the hell out of it for 10 seconds, let sit for 30 minutes and see what you get is pretty general. Making biodiesel is not rocket science. It's not exactly bucket science either, as you have to use a little common sense and stick somewhere close to the middle of what's known to work. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
Actually, it takes a brave man to tell a few home truths to John Tillman (aka tillyfromparadise, aka about 30 false IDs created to give the impression of group support) - you run the risk of precipitating a tireless, relentless, truly mindless, vicious and utterly integrity-free hate war against you for the next three years or so. I really hope that won't happen to you. In fact it doesn't even need home truths - what started his hate war against me, Journey to Forever, Aleks Kac (who he's never encountered in any way), Todd Swearingen, Steve Spence, and the Biofuel list? Nothing. That's right, nothing at all. I asked him some questions, that needed asking, without being in any way confrontational or rude or anything, and he decided I'd insulted him. Nobody else could see it, lots of people asked him to come off it, but no. Hate hate hate! Ever since, for the last three years. One sick puppy - a liar, a thief, a plagiarist, a multiple imposter, all very well documented. You can read a history of it here, if you really want to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Biodiesel/message/4254 Actually there are two of them, they often work in concert. The other one's a total creep named Linscott, who used to be a member here until, to loud public demand, very belatedly, after he'd wrought a lot of harm, he got the boot, also about three years ago or something. He's has lost no opportunity to stir it up wherever he can ever since. There's some background on him here: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/37931/ A right couple of psychos, these two. Apart from the above ref (necessary), instead of using the list as a platform to wage war from, I've been at considerable pains to keep this vomitous stuff away from the Biofuel list - unlike Tillscott, who've taken it everywhere they can and totalled several previously useful forums in the doing, and done the biofuels movement a deal of damage. As if they care. It's easy to be destructive. And yes, both of them lurk around here whispering their noxious BS to newcomers offlist. There's not much we can do about it, but we figured long ago that if you can't figure that out for yourself you probably won't be able to do much else worth half a damn anyway, and so it's proved, you being a case in point. There's also someone here right now who proves the opposite case in point, but that's his problem. He's going to have to choose, he can't have it both ways. In fact, interestingly, despite all the wreckage elsewhere, these two maniacs haven't succeeded in doing us any damage at all, not me, nor Journey to Forever, nor the Biofuel list, nor Todd, Aleks and Steve. For our part, only damaging *truths* could do that, and there aren't any. Anyway, John, I'm glad you put it in perspective, but generally we can do very well without any acknowledgement of this worthless stuff, thankyou very much. As for this: I would like to state to the list in general and especially kieth that no one should take any of this personally. This is how these creeps can distort things. John, if I got furious and took it personally every time somebody here or elsewhere criticised something at Journey to Forever, how would we ever have developed the resources there the way we have? Criticism and critical thinking are positive, or should be, not just a personal attack. It's a major factor at this forum and one reason we started it in the first place. There's a lot of original work at the Journey to Forever website biofuels section, but even there we can acknowledge a big debt to the Biofuel list and what we've learnt from the group over the years, and I have often acknowledged that. Genuine criticism is of course always welcome, right or wrong. Then it gets debated and the whole thing moves forward. Axe-grinding is not welcome. They're easily distinguished. And this: also I have observed that keith frequently expresses frustration that things get gone over again and again Do I? I've seen other people saying that. I just wish (often!) that more people would make better use of the archives, but also I can remember saying quite a few times that a question's been asked before but no harm in asking again, and pulling previous answers out of the archives for an airing rather than just giving the link. It can generate new responses, and even if not it makes the stuff easier to find in the archives next time. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Tilly, not really trying to say that keith has made a mistake on his site. instead I was asking for more information on how to conduct the test in a reproducible manner. I have a lot of respect for keith and what he does. you seem to lack that and I would be interested to understand why. I think that it is probably a good test to weed out the grossly under reacted batches and the way too much catalyst batches. I
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
G'day all; - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test John, I still think that temperature has a drastic effect on seperation time And you're correct. But there aren't too many people out there who are going to be washing with water direct from a glacier fed stream. Except that I have posted a few times stating that I use well water direct We have a well, but it's defunct, and we've been using mains water. We want to get the well going again, but I take it you'd suggest we leave it to the spring? LOL! Ah, I wish we had a glacier-fed stream! Full of freshly-ground minerals, the secret of Hunza. But I could probably do without the glacier itself... and not word one was ever mentioned until I started asking if wash water temperature is important. Point is, not that I went without for awhile, but that now the question IS being adressed. I had a few problems with emulsion, but only in the last two batches when the weather changed and it started getting cold. Prior to that, and none of the variables had changed, everything was clean and precise and good fuel resulted every time. This question of wash water temperature needs to be added as a requisite in the instructional stages of making good fuel. Just assuming that Eskimos will not be interested doesn't make it. So it seems that now it has been addressed, and I for one am very pleased that it has. Now it only leaves to have that information readily available to anyone wanting to learn the methodology of home brewing biodiesel. I suggest that it be added in the washing section at JtF somewhere. That is where I got my education from, and I must say that I am very pleased with what I was taught, so in the interest of those coming afterward it should be added somewhere evident. I am now in the process of not only adding a second settling tank (insulated of course) but also of adding a water pre-heat tank using a 115V immersion heater to warm up the well water I will again be using to wash in the Spring when I get my production back on line. Just leaving this information in the archives doesn't cut it either, it needs to be accessible in the tutorials.(Sorry Keith, I don't want to tell you what to do, but this seems to be an important detail in the end goal of proper biodiesel production.) No problem, but let's get it all sorted out and settled first. In fact the whole washing section at JtF is currently being reworked, been due for it for awhile. For one thing, it needs to be more closely linked to quality control. I'll start uploading it soon, when I can. It obviously has been an oversight, and that is part of what this forum is all about, the betterment of the end user product, so there it is. Oversight? Perhaps, or maybe it's just the normal course of development. We'll see what comes out of it. Regards Keith Luc ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
not really trying to say that keith has made a mistake on his site. instead I was asking for more information on how to conduct the test in a reproducible manner. I have a lot of respect for keith and what he does. you seem to lack that and I would be interested to understand why. I think that it is probably a good test to weed out the grossly under reacted batches and the way too much catalyst batches. I couldn't figure out why I kept following the instructions to the letter and getting batches that failed the quality test. 'it is cold here' seems to be the answer. maybe also 'I have soft water' is the answer. also your generalized quest against all things JtF gives you very little veracity as I have found that JtF is an invaluable resource. you and the other one that contacted me off list and tried to direct me at some other site seem to both be on another planet than the rest of the community and the rest of the community seems to be happily functioning and making high quality fuel that works well. I wasted a lot of time listening to your advice, when see new people on the list I want to warn them not to listen. I am scientific and skeptical, unless someone can give me good reasons and solid instructions their advice is usually out the door (often to my own detriment, but at least I really learn things when I do). John tillyfromparadise wrote: Hello John, It takes a brave man to tell Keith he has a mistake on JTF You are correct. The water shake test has many problems and at best only picks up Grossly under-reacted batches. Passing the shake test is certainly NOT an indication that the fuel is *well within the standard specifications* as claimed on JTF, It is only an indication that the fuel is probably not grossly under-reacted. You are also correct that what is in the water makes a difference. Hard water seperates MUCH quicker than soft water. It is also important to allow the biodiesel to sit at least over night before doing the test. There is NO simple home made test for checking whether your biodiesel meets ASTM or not. I suspect very few people actually achieve ASTM standard biodiesel The best home test is a Viscosity test. These have limitations too as the viscosity of biodiesel varies slightly depending on what the original oil was. But it is a darn site better than the Shake-em up test on JTF. But then Keith has officially declaired that viscosity is not an indicator of quality so that is never going to be discussed. I wonder what the penality for telling Keith he has a mistake on his web site is? Good Luck Squire Tilly KE the quality test listed here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality doesn't have enough information to be reproducible. separation time seems to be based on a number of factors including but probably not limited to: ambient temperature initial temperature of the H2O and the FAME snip * Yahoo! Messenger http://sg.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/?http://sg.messenger.yahoo.com/* - Log on http://sg.mobile.yahoo.com/sms/msgr20.html with your mobile phone! ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
the 70*F batch was mostly separated within about 5-10 minutes but didn't really reach completion until the end of 25 minutes. thirty seconds to a minute??? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality says Then let it settle. The biodiesel should separate from the water in half an hour or less, with amber biodiesel on top and milky water below. at 140 it separated right quick. I understand how volume could have such a big effect, bubbles of the fuel seemed to form and get stuck on one another's surface tension while the separation was happening. only problem is that 150mL is just about all of my test batch so I won't be able to perform the test multiple times and vary the parameters. what I was trying to suggest here is that there are some factors that drastically affect the results that aren't even mentioned such that they can be controlled. John Appal Energy wrote: John, It is reproducable if you use larger volumes than the 8 ml total volume that you're using. A couple of fluid ounces would be more appropriate. The method suggests ~150 ml, or approximately five fluid ounces. If you're not getting anything resembling a clean separation for 25 minutes using 70*F water, something is not right. Same for the 50*F wash yielding three layers. The suggestion would be to work on getting more complete reactions. If the reaction went to completion, you should be able to take a 50/50 sample of water and fuel, shake radically/vertically ten times, and get a clean separation within 30 seconds to one minute, using the first water that comes out of a cold tap (ambient temp). Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 3:25 PM Subject: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test the quality test listed here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality doesn't have enough information to be reproducible. separation time seems to be based on a number of factors including but probably not limited to: ambient temperature initial temperature of the H2O and the FAME I made a test batch yesterday and then performed the quality test on it a number of times varying different factors, I did 2 with the coldest water that would come out of my tap and 2 with the hottest water that would come out of my tap, and one with appx 70 degree water (cold was about 55 degrees F and hot was about 140 degrees F) I also did 2 that sat in a bath of 140 degree water while they were separating, ambient temperature in my kitchen is approximately 60 degrees F. the two that sat in the 140 degree water had separated completely in less than 2 minutes, the 2 that were made with the hot water had completely separated (less cleanly than the ones in the hot water bath) in 18 minutes, the one that was made with 70 degree water separated fully in 25 minutes, and the ones that were made with the cold water separated into three layers of approximately the same volume one that was straw yellow and slightly milky one that was a much lighter yellow and much more milky and one that was milky white. these were all prepared in 13x100mm culture tubes with 4mL of H2O and 4mL of FAME. I also presume, although I have not yet tested this that the contents of one's tap water and the shape of one's container make a difference in the results. John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
If you're looking for reproducability, you need to follow baseline, not modify a test/experiment so as to suit your own preference or conditions. You've apparently neglected to consider increases in sampling error that occur when conducting tests at micro-levels/volumes. You compound any flaw in your final evaluations by conducting not only the wash but the esterification with miniscule volumes. Unless your preparations are made with electronic scales to the thousandth of a gram, your alcohol and feedstock volumes determined by weight using the same scale, rather than relying upon glassware that forewarns of + or - 5% error factor, not to mention the + or - 10% human error factor (whether you know what end of the miniscus to take your measurements from or not) you only compound the degree of errors that are or can be represented by your conclusions. There is an enormous world of difference between reproducablity/results achieved on 150 ml samples and samples no bigger than single liters, even when conducted by professionals with decades of experience. As to your questioning the time frame that I mentioned for separation of well processed fuel, you need to take notice of the difference between the agitation period stated in my post and the general guideline you opted to modify. You also need to take notice that the wash test is not represented as anything more than a quick and simple manner of determing how an operator may care or feel reasonably safe to proceed with what he or she may believe to be biodiesel. The guidelines that are offered on this list and at Journey to Forever are intended to assist the general public in getting their fuel near or to the level that would pass the scrutiny of spec fuel, despite the fact that they may be working on dimestore budgets. If you can afford the luxury and it's absolute guarantees of finished product quality that you seek, I would suggest that you establish a procedural regimen, produce what you have reason to believe is a well-crafted product and then submit the sample to the testing methods established in D-6751. You'll quickly surprise yourself at how easily that standard can be neared or met in a meticulous homebrewer's environment. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 10:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test Todd, the 70*F batch was mostly separated within about 5-10 minutes but didn't really reach completion until the end of 25 minutes. thirty seconds to a minute??? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality says Then let it settle. The biodiesel should separate from the water in half an hour or less, with amber biodiesel on top and milky water below. at 140 it separated right quick. I understand how volume could have such a big effect, bubbles of the fuel seemed to form and get stuck on one another's surface tension while the separation was happening. only problem is that 150mL is just about all of my test batch so I won't be able to perform the test multiple times and vary the parameters. what I was trying to suggest here is that there are some factors that drastically affect the results that aren't even mentioned such that they can be controlled. John Appal Energy wrote: John, It is reproducable if you use larger volumes than the 8 ml total volume that you're using. A couple of fluid ounces would be more appropriate. The method suggests ~150 ml, or approximately five fluid ounces. If you're not getting anything resembling a clean separation for 25 minutes using 70*F water, something is not right. Same for the 50*F wash yielding three layers. The suggestion would be to work on getting more complete reactions. If the reaction went to completion, you should be able to take a 50/50 sample of water and fuel, shake radically/vertically ten times, and get a clean separation within 30 seconds to one minute, using the first water that comes out of a cold tap (ambient temp). Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 3:25 PM Subject: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test the quality test listed here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality doesn't have enough information to be reproducible. separation time seems to be based on a number of factors including but probably not limited to: ambient temperature initial temperature of the H2O and the FAME I made a test batch yesterday and then performed the quality test on it a number of times varying different factors, I did 2 with the coldest water that would come out of my tap and 2 with the hottest water that would come out of my tap, and one with appx 70 degree water (cold was about 55 degrees F and hot was about 140 degrees F) I also did 2 that sat
[Biofuel] test
The mailing list was down for a few hours today sorry for the trouble. -- Martin Klingensmith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
Understood. I will produce a batch large enough to make several runs at the 150mL test and post the results. I consumed the remains of my last test batch in a 125mL run (it was all that was left) and I followed your agitation (10 times up and down violently). it had seperated in to two clearly stratified sections within abbout 1 minute with 60*F water however it still had lots of tiny bubbles in both parts (sort of a milky yellow and a milky white). is that what you mean by clear seperation? I still think that temperature has a drastic effect on seperation time which I will test and post the results and methods of my experiment. I would like to state to the list in general and especially kieth that no one should take any of this personally. I am posting my results so that people can point out errors. I am pointing out a sticking point that people may have (if I am having this problem other people are probably having it too). any good science is a process of peer review. one posts methods and results others duplicate ones experiments and if they prove reporducable and consistant then they are seen by the community to be valid. one of the problems that I have with all of this is that the instructions are really general and I fear that there are factors that are important but are not mentioned such that they can be controlled. John Appal Energy wrote: John Guttridge, If you're looking for reproducability, you need to follow baseline, not modify a test/experiment so as to suit your own preference or conditions. You've apparently neglected to consider increases in sampling error that occur when conducting tests at micro-levels/volumes. You compound any flaw in your final evaluations by conducting not only the wash but the esterification with miniscule volumes. Unless your preparations are made with electronic scales to the thousandth of a gram, your alcohol and feedstock volumes determined by weight using the same scale, rather than relying upon glassware that forewarns of + or - 5% error factor, not to mention the + or - 10% human error factor (whether you know what end of the miniscus to take your measurements from or not) you only compound the degree of errors that are or can be represented by your conclusions. There is an enormous world of difference between reproducablity/results achieved on 150 ml samples and samples no bigger than single liters, even when conducted by professionals with decades of experience. As to your questioning the time frame that I mentioned for separation of well processed fuel, you need to take notice of the difference between the agitation period stated in my post and the general guideline you opted to modify. You also need to take notice that the wash test is not represented as anything more than a quick and simple manner of determing how an operator may care or feel reasonably safe to proceed with what he or she may believe to be biodiesel. The guidelines that are offered on this list and at Journey to Forever are intended to assist the general public in getting their fuel near or to the level that would pass the scrutiny of spec fuel, despite the fact that they may be working on dimestore budgets. If you can afford the luxury and it's absolute guarantees of finished product quality that you seek, I would suggest that you establish a procedural regimen, produce what you have reason to believe is a well-crafted product and then submit the sample to the testing methods established in D-6751. You'll quickly surprise yourself at how easily that standard can be neared or met in a meticulous homebrewer's environment. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 10:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test Todd, the 70*F batch was mostly separated within about 5-10 minutes but didn't really reach completion until the end of 25 minutes. thirty seconds to a minute??? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality says Then let it settle. The biodiesel should separate from the water in half an hour or less, with amber biodiesel on top and milky water below. at 140 it separated right quick. I understand how volume could have such a big effect, bubbles of the fuel seemed to form and get stuck on one another's surface tension while the separation was happening. only problem is that 150mL is just about all of my test batch so I won't be able to perform the test multiple times and vary the parameters. what I was trying to suggest here is that there are some factors that drastically affect the results that aren't even mentioned such that they can be controlled. John Appal Energy wrote: John, It is reproducable if you use larger volumes than the 8 ml total volume that you're using. A couple of fluid ounces would be more appropriate. The method suggests ~150 ml, or approximately five
[Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality doesn't have enough information to be reproducible. separation time seems to be based on a number of factors including but probably not limited to: ambient temperature initial temperature of the H2O and the FAME I made a test batch yesterday and then performed the quality test on it a number of times varying different factors, I did 2 with the coldest water that would come out of my tap and 2 with the hottest water that would come out of my tap, and one with appx 70 degree water (cold was about 55 degrees F and hot was about 140 degrees F) I also did 2 that sat in a bath of 140 degree water while they were separating, ambient temperature in my kitchen is approximately 60 degrees F. the two that sat in the 140 degree water had separated completely in less than 2 minutes, the 2 that were made with the hot water had completely separated (less cleanly than the ones in the hot water bath) in 18 minutes, the one that was made with 70 degree water separated fully in 25 minutes, and the ones that were made with the cold water separated into three layers of approximately the same volume one that was straw yellow and slightly milky one that was a much lighter yellow and much more milky and one that was milky white. these were all prepared in 13x100mm culture tubes with 4mL of H2O and 4mL of FAME. I also presume, although I have not yet tested this that the contents of one's tap water and the shape of one's container make a difference in the results. John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
It is reproducable if you use larger volumes than the 8 ml total volume that you're using. A couple of fluid ounces would be more appropriate. The method suggests ~150 ml, or approximately five fluid ounces. If you're not getting anything resembling a clean separation for 25 minutes using 70*F water, something is not right. Same for the 50*F wash yielding three layers. The suggestion would be to work on getting more complete reactions. If the reaction went to completion, you should be able to take a 50/50 sample of water and fuel, shake radically/vertically ten times, and get a clean separation within 30 seconds to one minute, using the first water that comes out of a cold tap (ambient temp). Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 3:25 PM Subject: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test the quality test listed here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality doesn't have enough information to be reproducible. separation time seems to be based on a number of factors including but probably not limited to: ambient temperature initial temperature of the H2O and the FAME I made a test batch yesterday and then performed the quality test on it a number of times varying different factors, I did 2 with the coldest water that would come out of my tap and 2 with the hottest water that would come out of my tap, and one with appx 70 degree water (cold was about 55 degrees F and hot was about 140 degrees F) I also did 2 that sat in a bath of 140 degree water while they were separating, ambient temperature in my kitchen is approximately 60 degrees F. the two that sat in the 140 degree water had separated completely in less than 2 minutes, the 2 that were made with the hot water had completely separated (less cleanly than the ones in the hot water bath) in 18 minutes, the one that was made with 70 degree water separated fully in 25 minutes, and the ones that were made with the cold water separated into three layers of approximately the same volume one that was straw yellow and slightly milky one that was a much lighter yellow and much more milky and one that was milky white. these were all prepared in 13x100mm culture tubes with 4mL of H2O and 4mL of FAME. I also presume, although I have not yet tested this that the contents of one's tap water and the shape of one's container make a difference in the results. John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [biofuel] Test wash turned completely white
whole thing turned in to a white foam. And it took about 5 - 10 mins for the white stuff to separate from my biodiesel. Is there anything wrong here? Yup. You have an incomplete reaction. Take 250 ml of your fuel, reprocess it with 1/4 of the standard amount of NaOH and MeOH. Sit back and watch some more glycerin drop. Then try your test wash again after letting it all settle for 12-24 hours. Pay no attention to what color your finished fuel is. It will vary dependant upon the feedstock and the degree of abuse it received prior to your converting it. It will look slightly cloudy after washing, even if the fuel is perfectly processed. This cloudiness clears up over time or with the application of modest heat. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Teoman Naskali [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 8:16 PM Subject: [biofuel] Test wash turned completely white I just did a test wash on 25 ml of my first batch and 25 ml of water in a jar. I mixed the 2 together by violently shaking the jar for about 30 seconds. The whole thing turned in to a white foam. And it took about 5 - 10 mins for the white stuff to separate from my biodiesel. Is there anything wrong here? Even now after half an hour my biodiesel is a very light yellowish color, but it looks like diluted urine whith a few drops of milk in it, i hope it is not the chemical or use wise equivalent. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Test wash turned completely white
I just did a test wash on 25 ml of my first batch and 25 ml of water in a jar. I mixed the 2 together by violently shaking the jar for about 30 seconds. The whole thing turned in to a white foam. And it took about 5 - 10 mins for the white stuff to separate from my biodiesel. Is there anything wrong here? Even now after half an hour my biodiesel is a very light yellowish color, but it looks like diluted urine whith a few drops of milk in it, i hope it is not the chemical or use wise equivalent. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Test wash turned completely white
Hello Teoman I just did a test wash on 25 ml of my first batch and 25 ml of water in a jar. I mixed the 2 together by violently shaking the jar for about 30 seconds. The whole thing turned in to a white foam. And it took about 5 - 10 mins for the white stuff to separate from my biodiesel. Is there anything wrong here? No. It could be better (quicker separation) but the fact that it separated at all instead of turning into mayonnaise shows you're on the right track, well on your way. Please read this: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality Please also read Todd's message today, Re: [biofuel] washing biodiesel in large processor (Appal Energy). Even now after half an hour my biodiesel is a very light yellowish color, but it looks like diluted urine whith a few drops of milk in it, i hope it is not the chemical or use wise equivalent. It'll clear eventually. Whether it separated or not, how long it took, and whether there's an emulsion interface (white) between the two layers, how thick it is, these are the indicators. Not quite sure what your thin red layer on top is, but if you're managing to wash it and pass the wash test maybe it doen't matter much. Did it vanish in the wash? Best wishes Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Test Batches using SVO
I've only been a member of this group for a short time, but I've learned a few tricks to making biodiesel thanks to other more experienced members.I am currently working on getting a supply of WVO from a fast food place near to where I work. In my test batches, I've used 500mls of straight corn canola oils. I've gone almost by the rule of thumb as to the amounts of methanol NaOH to use, but I have found that if I add .5 to 1 ml of H2SO4 to the oil, it breaks down the FFA's better than NaOH alone. I hope to have 1 or 2 litres made by the weekend. Wish me luck. Any comments, help, or suggestions are welcomed. Gregg Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Test batch
In a message dated 06/04/2004 11:27:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Rick, Go to your kitchen and take some of the vegetable oil from your pantry and run a sample. Do everything the same as you did with the WVO. If the same thing happens you know it's not your oil that's the problem. Todd Swearingen Now why didn't I think of that. Rick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Test batch
I just did another test batch and there is something wrong. I am doing small test batches trying to make sure my measurements are correct. I have done 5 small batches and have had the same results with all. I don't understand what is wrong as I have made about 50 gallons of fuel that came out great. I am useing the same oil that I have been using all along. I started out with 1/2 liter of oil and 100 ml of meth and 3-1/2 grams of lye. My oil is the color of like coffee before I add the meth and lye. I am mixing the meth and lye very good so I am sure that is okay. As soon as I add the meth and lye to my oil it turns the oil to a creamy carmel color. Kinda looks like you poured milk into your coffee and mixed it up. After it is mixed and poured out of the blender it just goes solid like it is to much lye or something. I have decreased the lye by 1/2 gram of lye all the way down to 2 grams with the same amount of oil and meth and get the same results. I am at a loss as to what is wrong. Anyone have any suggestions? Rick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Test batch
I just did another test batch and there is something wrong. I am doing small test batches trying to make sure my measurements are correct. I have done 5 small batches and have had the same results with all. I don't understand what is wrong as I have made about 50 gallons of fuel that came out great. I am useing the same oil that I have been using all along. I started out with 1/2 liter of oil and 100 ml of meth and 3-1/2 grams of lye. My oil is the color of like coffee before I add the meth and lye. I am mixing the meth and lye very good so I am sure that is okay. As soon as I add the meth and lye to my oil it turns the oil to a creamy carmel color. Kinda looks like you poured milk into your coffee and mixed it up. After it is mixed and poured out of the blender it just goes solid like it is to much lye or something. I have decreased the lye by 1/2 gram of lye all the way down to 2 grams with the same amount of oil and meth and get the same results. I am at a loss as to what is wrong. Anyone have any suggestions? Rick So your titration of this oil gave a result of 3.5 ml? What sort of oil is it? This is the same lye amount that you used for the 50 gallons you've made - 7 g/litre oil? How are you mixing the methoxide for the blender batches? What temperature is the oil? Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Test batch
Rick, Go to your kitchen and take some of the vegetable oil from your pantry and run a sample. Do everything the same as you did with the WVO. If the same thing happens you know it's not your oil that's the problem. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 11:41 AM Subject: [biofuel] Test batch I just did another test batch and there is something wrong. I am doing small test batches trying to make sure my measurements are correct. I have done 5 small batches and have had the same results with all. I don't understand what is wrong as I have made about 50 gallons of fuel that came out great. I am useing the same oil that I have been using all along. I started out with 1/2 liter of oil and 100 ml of meth and 3-1/2 grams of lye. My oil is the color of like coffee before I add the meth and lye. I am mixing the meth and lye very good so I am sure that is okay. As soon as I add the meth and lye to my oil it turns the oil to a creamy carmel color. Kinda looks like you poured milk into your coffee and mixed it up. After it is mixed and poured out of the blender it just goes solid like it is to much lye or something. I have decreased the lye by 1/2 gram of lye all the way down to 2 grams with the same amount of oil and meth and get the same results. I am at a loss as to what is wrong. Anyone have any suggestions? Rick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] test batches
Greetings list, I have a question. If you do a test batch and you get a glob of what looks like hard grease or bad looking soap, wouldn't that mean that you probably used to much lye? Rick M Brownstown, Mi. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] test batch
x-charset ISO-8859-1Hi everyone...i was just wondering how long you have to let it sit after its completed the process and been transfered to a new container Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] test batch
Hi everyone...i was just wondering how long you have to let it sit after its completed the process and been transfered to a new container Hi, and welcome You mean after processing and before washing? 24 hours, some people say longer is better, which it probably is, others say you should have the stuff in your tank within 12 hours of starting the process and that washed biodiesel's bad for your car anyway, which is ridiculous nonsense but they say it anyway. Let it settle for 24 hours or more, then separate the glycerine by-product (at the bottom) and wash the biodiesel (on top), either in the processor or (much better) in a separate wash-tank. regards Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Test Batches and Theory vs Practice
Ken, I wonder how things would go with titrations between 2-3 ml NaOH? That seem to be somewhat average WVO that I am collecting. I sure do need to get over to MAX's to get some of that stuff your collecting .. ;-) This is a great thread and I am glad your doing the experiments to figure out what is the limit for Eth processing. And for everyone out there, I have been over to Ken's for processing and the setup is EXTREEMELY ludite and Ken is getting good results with a 5:1 Eth:Meth ratio for titrations under 2 ml NaOH. So, it is possible to be as Eco as possible using just a small amount of Meth. Good work Ken!!! James Slayden BTW, did you ever get another drum of that Parallel Products Eth? I know you and Dave Shaw were in contact so I wanted to see if it finally got off the ground. On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Ken Provost wrote: on 12/30/03 8:26 AM, Dan Maker at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I want to make biodiesel from WVO and Ethanol. So far the only ethyl esters I've heard discussed are from virgin oil, or mostly virgin oil with only a small percentage of WVO. Well, not exactly. I've been using about half 'n' half WVO and flush oil (overall 0.9 ml NaOH titer), but I'm doing a sample of straight WVO (1.7 ml NaOH) tonite with 90:10 eth:meth just to prove you wrong :-) Now I know that's not very high still, but I'm truly shocked to read of fokes trying to use 8- and 9-ml stuff. Hey, garbage is garbage -- we can't work miracles here. I get my oil from Hammerhead Fish House and Maxx's Ribs -- it's 1.7 after 6 mos. in my garage. There's no need (for me at least) to get any worse. If I really needed to use the WORST I've EVER seen in my area (4.0 ml Na titr), and I wanted to use mostly ethanol, I'd do acid-base with 9:1 eth:meth. I bet it would work, tho I can't say fer sure. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Test Batches and Theory vs Practice
on 12/30/03 8:26 AM, Dan Maker at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I want to make biodiesel from WVO and Ethanol. So far the only ethyl esters I've heard discussed are from virgin oil, or mostly virgin oil with only a small percentage of WVO. Well, not exactly. I've been using about half 'n' half WVO and flush oil (overall 0.9 ml NaOH titer), but I'm doing a sample of straight WVO (1.7 ml NaOH) tonite with 90:10 eth:meth just to prove you wrong :-) Now I know that's not very high still, but I'm truly shocked to read of fokes trying to use 8- and 9-ml stuff. Hey, garbage is garbage -- we can't work miracles here. I get my oil from Hammerhead Fish House and Maxx's Ribs -- it's 1.7 after 6 mos. in my garage. There's no need (for me at least) to get any worse. If I really needed to use the WORST I've EVER seen in my area (4.0 ml Na titr), and I wanted to use mostly ethanol, I'd do acid-base with 9:1 eth:meth. I bet it would work, tho I can't say fer sure. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Test Batches and Theory vs Practice
Ken Provost said: Well, not exactly. I've been using about half 'n' half WVO and flush oil (overall 0.9 ml NaOH titer), but I'm doing a sample of straight WVO (1.7 ml NaOH) tonite with 90:10 eth:meth just to prove you wrong :-) Great to hear you are having such success with wvo. Now can you do that with out any methanol? Using that 10% methanol to mix with NaOH will give you the methoxide you'll need as a catylist, allowing most of the transesterfication to be done by the ethanol. It should work just fine. But with out the methanol, even with KOH, you won't get enough catylist, at least not from what I've figured, so it's not something I want to try. While what you are going to do tonight will be very good, it won't prove me wrong. Eleminate the methanol, and use just WVO with what ever process you like, base only, acid base, something entirely new, and you will have proved me wrong. If I really needed to use the WORST I've EVER seen in my area (4.0 ml Na titr), and I wanted to use mostly ethanol, I'd do acid-base with 9:1 eth:meth. I bet it would work, tho I can't say fer sure. -K Yup, and this is where the theory ends and you have to get out the gloves and go to work. Happy New Year Dan -- Jack of all trades, master of none. Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Test Batches and Theory vs Practice
Hi Dan Keith Addison said: Sorry it's taken me so long to reply, hollidays and finishing up a down draft gasifier to burn waste wood have taken a lot of time. The gasifier is working nicely, I now need to build the heat exchanger. If you accidently measure out an extra .1 gram NaOH in each batch it represents it represents 28.5% too much in the 1 liter batch but only 1.4% too much in the 20 liter batch. That's wrong Dan. This is virgin oil, so it should be: I'll have to check my numbers. You just dropped a decimal place. Yes, check the quantities you used in your test batches, but I'd guess you just got it wrong in the calculation for your post, not for making the test batches (or it wouldn't have worked at all). You'd said: 1 liter oil requires 0.2 liters of Methanol and .35 grams NaOH That's only one-tenth the required amount of NaOH, it should be 3.5 grams. You say the opposite thing about the iffy test batch below: I think I had too much NaOH in it... It's worth stating. Mark's right though, eh? - it doesn't lend itself to armchair theorising. Why we always advise people to start at the beginning instead of rushing straight at the two-stage processes or designing a full-scale processor before they've made their first batch. One erstwhile hopeful complained most bitterly to me because There are two seperate issues here. Practical experience using your tools and familiarity with the process is one. The other is understanding the reaction you are attempting. There is no substitute for practical, hands on experience, but there is also no substitute for theory either. That's quite right. There's also a rational sequence to it though. Your theorizing is likely to be much more focused and productive if you first gain the basic practical hands-on experience. As with your baking example below, you'd want to be competent at the basic recipes and techniques before moving on to new recipes and new, untried ground, which will need both theory and practical competence. If you can't break an egg without breaking the yolk and getting bits of shell in it, or if you've never tried breaking an egg, better learn how first. Hence our Where do I start? section - start with a small test batch of virgin oil, etc, it's a logical progression, easy to follow, with the horse at the right end of the cart. With out understanding the theory you are just following the recipe. That works, most of the time, as long as the recipe is for the right thing. If you are trying to come up with a new recipe you need to understand the theory. When you start trying out your new recipe you need to have good lab skills and practices. It's much like baking, in that all the experience in the world, at following somebody elses recipe, will only go so far toward creating your own recipe. Conversely, without that experience you're not going to know whether the existing recipes are adequate for your purposes or if you need to develop a new one of your own. It may give you a strong intuitive feel for the product, but it will not be as helpful as understanding the theory and chemistry. And for any of you that say there's no chemistry in baking, you need to make Sweedish Lemon Angels, http://www.recipesource.com/baked-goods/desserts/cookies/01/rec0162.html :-) There's a LOT of chemistry in baking! Even short of playing with it. Dan, what quite is happening to the test batch you made that isn't biodiesel? Why not try rescuing it? I think I had too much NaOH in it, it was cloudy and not seperating. I need to go back and double check my figures after you pointed out my error in the example I gave above for large batches vs. small batches. I know I wasn't measuring as accurately as I'd like to have. The scale I'm using isn't realy up to the task and needs to be replaced before I make any further efforts. As for rescuing it, it's only 1.4 liters, and it's looking realy cool as I've left it to sit and seperate over the last few weeks. I have water in there too and so I have a very interesting mix of glycerin, soap biodiesel and sodium catylist. My second small batch worked out nicely, even with the postage scale, but as I said, I'll be getting a more accurate scale before I try any further test batches. Worth it, IMO. Best wishes Keith Cheers, Dan -- Jack of all trades, master of none. Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
Re: [biofuel] Test Batches and Theory vs Practice
Keith Addison said: That's only one-tenth the required amount of NaOH, it should be 3.5 grams. You say the opposite thing about the iffy test batch below: I think I had too much NaOH in it... Yes, I didn't trust my initial calculations or measurements on my initial test batch and added in more NaOH, that's why I think I ended up with too much. It's much like baking, in that all the experience in the world, at following somebody elses recipe, will only go so far toward creating your own recipe. Conversely, without that experience you're not going to know whether the existing recipes are adequate for your purposes or if you need to develop a new one of your own. No, not entirely. It already seems that the recipe I want isn't out there, at least not in the liturature I've read or seen discussed. I want to make biodiesel from WVO and Ethanol. So far the only ethylesters I've heard discussed are from virgin oil, or mostly virgin oil with only a small percentage of WVO. It could well be that I've misunderstood, and someone is using fry vat oil with Ethanol, but it wasn't clear to me. I am not arguing that practical hands on experience, with small batches, is very helpful before proceeding to large batches. And that experience using the equipment and materials is important to become comptetent with them. I am saying that it is not necessary to actually make a batch of biodiesel to understand how the process works, or to contemplate ways of changing or improving the process. However it is entirely possible to make bd without having any understanding of the chemical reactions involved. To verify that the new process does work would require using it to make bd. And here, starting with a known process, to acheive known results, before testing the new process, in hopes of acheiving the same results, is a good idea. As an example of how thought process is important, consider Albert Einstein's thought experiments. He used his thought experiments to formulate and initially test his theories. http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi576.htm http://www.recipesource.com/baked-goods/desserts/cookies/01/rec0162.html :-) There's a LOT of chemistry in baking! Even short of playing with it. A word of warning to those that may not be aware, the recipe referenced above will NOT make cookies, just a large mess all over your work surface. Still thinking (and doing), Dan -- Jack of all trades, master of none. Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Test Batches and Theory vs Practice [was - Re: Simple 5-gallon processor]
Keith Addison said: Sorry it's taken me so long to reply, hollidays and finishing up a down draft gasifier to burn waste wood have taken a lot of time. The gasifier is working nicely, I now need to build the heat exchanger. If you accidently measure out an extra .1 gram NaOH in each batch it represents it represents 28.5% too much in the 1 liter batch but only 1.4% too much in the 20 liter batch. That's wrong Dan. This is virgin oil, so it should be: I'll have to check my numbers. It's worth stating. Mark's right though, eh? - it doesn't lend itself to armchair theorising. Why we always advise people to start at the beginning instead of rushing straight at the two-stage processes or designing a full-scale processor before they've made their first batch. One erstwhile hopeful complained most bitterly to me because There are two seperate issues here. Practical experience using your tools and familiarity with the process is one. The other is understanding the reaction you are attempting. There is no substitute for practical, hands on experience, but there is also no substitute for theory either. With out understanding the theory you are just following the recipe. That works, most of the time, as long as the recipe is for the right thing. If you are trying to come up with a new recipe you need to understand the theory. When you start trying out your new recipe you need to have good lab skills and practices. It's much like baking, in that all the experience in the world, at following somebody elses recipe, will only go so far toward creating your own recipe. It may give you a strong intuitive feel for the product, but it will not be as helpful as understanding the theory and chemistry. And for any of you that say there's no chemistry in baking, you need to make Sweedish Lemon Angels, http://www.recipesource.com/baked-goods/desserts/cookies/01/rec0162.html Dan, what quite is happening to the test batch you made that isn't biodiesel? Why not try rescuing it? I think I had too much NaOH in it, it was cloudy and not seperating. I need to go back and double check my figures after you pointed out my error in the example I gave above for large batches vs. small batches. I know I wasn't measuring as accurately as I'd like to have. The scale I'm using isn't realy up to the task and needs to be replaced before I make any further efforts. As for rescuing it, it's only 1.4 liters, and it's looking realy cool as I've left it to sit and seperate over the last few weeks. I have water in there too and so I have a very interesting mix of glycerin, soap biodiesel and sodium catylist. My second small batch worked out nicely, even with the postage scale, but as I said, I'll be getting a more accurate scale before I try any further test batches. Cheers, Dan -- Jack of all trades, master of none. Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] test batch questions
Hello. I'm a newbie, so go easy. We gathered our materials (WVO, Red Devil, methanol, old blender, fish tank heater, measuring gear, etc.) and have mixed several test batches, but it doesn't look right. One liter WVO, 200 ml CH3OH, and varied the amount of lye (3.0 g, 4.0 g, 4.5 g, 5.5 g). Mixed lye into CH3OH for 5 minutes, while WVO preheated to ~110F, then added and ran heater/mixer at ~120F for 1 hour. Poured into clear plastic jugs and allowed to settle overnight. The batches range from 10% to 5% to none, of clear golden oil on top of light brown jellied glob (90% to 99%)in the bottom. Some have white crusty island on top of the glob. Where do we go from here? I was thinking next test batch I'd try way more lye... say 8.0 g. Thanks, Bill Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Test Batch
Hi, I tried a 500 mL test batch with some used vegetable shortening from Long John Silvers. I used 100 mL of Methanol and 2.8 g of NaOH. I got two distinct layers, but there was some glycerine floating in my biodiesel layer. Then I took about 150 mL of biodiesel/ glycerin layer and mixed that with about 150 mL of water. I got 4 layers! The top was clear enough to see through and sort of golden color and about 1/4 of the mixture volume. The second layer was very cloudy, fairly golden color and about 1/3 of the mixture volume. The thrid was opaque ad white and of insignificant volume. The bottom layer was cloudy and grey and about 1/2 of the mixture volume. I only used 2.8 g of lye. What went wrong? And if this happens on a large scale batch, what should I do? Could I possibly filter out the glycerin after the reaction? Dave Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ArdFIC/hP.FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Test-batch mini-processor - one or two litres
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html Test-batch mini-processor For one or two litres This mini-processor is easy to make from not very much, mostly kichen stuff and a couple of tools. It's effective and safe, closed and virtually air-tight, with no splashing or leaking of hot fumes. It will make one- or two-litre batches for test-batch or demonstration purposes, suitable for single-stage or two-stage processes, with full agitation and temperature control. And you can take it anywhere. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free shipping on all inkjet cartridge refill kit orders to US Canada. Low prices up to 80% off. We have your brand: HP, Epson, Lexmark more. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5510 http://us.click.yahoo.com/GHXcIA/n.WGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] TEST
I WOULD LIKE TO DO A TEST USING 60Lt WVO AND ETHANOL.CAN ANYONE HELP WITH A SIMPLE AND WORKABLE FORMULA.I AM QUITE DESPERATE AS I LIVE IN ZIMBABWE WHERE DIESEL IS A VERY SCARES PRODUCT. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP CHRIS. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Toner for Your Printer or Fax at LaserTonerSuperstore.com-Save 55%! We have your brand: HP, IBM, Canon, Xerox, Apple and many more for less! http://www.LaserTonerSuperstore.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/YmQqWC/qicGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] TEST
I WOULD LIKE TO DO A TEST USING 60Lt WVO AND ETHANOL.CAN ANYONE HELP WITH A SIMPLE AND WORKABLE FORMULA.I AM QUITE DESPERATE AS I LIVE IN ZIMBABWE WHERE DIESEL IS A VERY SCARES PRODUCT. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP CHRIS. No need to shout! :-) Test batches should be maybe one litre, not 60. There's information for you here: Ethanol biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#ethylester On the other hand, you could perhaps just mix the WVO and the ethanol, a la the ACREVO study: Report of the European Advanced Combustion Research for Energy from Vegetable Oils (ACREVO) study of the use of straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel. Investigates the burning characteristics of vegetable oil droplets from experiments conducted under high pressure and high temperature conditions. Very interesting study, worth a thorough read (4,400 words). http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm WVO should be good quality, ethanol can be 95% (190-proof), mix at a ratio of 9% ethanol. But you'll still need to pre-heat it - a two-tank system in other words: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel: Journey to Forever Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free shipping on all inkjet cartridge refill kit orders to US Canada. Low prices up to 80% off. We have your brand: HP, Epson, Lexmark more. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5510 http://us.click.yahoo.com/GHXcIA/n.WGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Test B100 without motors
Question and Hi everybody (I'm new to this group), I am looking into feasability of homemade biodiesel but I don't have a car (yet) that I can test the fuel in. Looking for other ways to use my experimental batches. Can I use B100 in a kerosene forced air heater? The one I have is the bullet style (sometimes called a salamander) heater that you see at football games or in warehouses. Can I use 100% biodiesel or should I mix with some proportion of kerosene? I use this heater in my garage in the winter when working on my cars. Would also be great to get rid of that horrible kerosene smell! Anyone here experiment with forced air heaters of this type and biodiesel? How does biodiesel compare to kerosene anyway? Thanks for the help, Kelly Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Test B100 without motors
Kelly, We did some experimenting this winter. The two problems are the gelling of the BioD and the air feed needs to be regulated at a different mixture. We had success with a shut off valve for an ice maker feed - it screws into the back of the unit. It will operate best when the valve is almost closed. Do your tests in an open area until you get the right mixture - the initial ignition will generate a huge amount of very unpleasant smoke. The colder it gets, the more kero you will have to use. If you can keep your fuel tank inside until it will be used it will help keep the fuel warmer. We did not do long term testing - don't know what the BioD will do to the seals. Craig - Original Message - From: kmyerkconline [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 10:27 AM Subject: [biofuel] Test B100 without motors Question and Hi everybody (I'm new to this group), I am looking into feasability of homemade biodiesel but I don't have a car (yet) that I can test the fuel in. Looking for other ways to use my experimental batches. Can I use B100 in a kerosene forced air heater? The one I have is the bullet style (sometimes called a salamander) heater that you see at football games or in warehouses. Can I use 100% biodiesel or should I mix with some proportion of kerosene? I use this heater in my garage in the winter when working on my cars. Would also be great to get rid of that horrible kerosene smell! Anyone here experiment with forced air heaters of this type and biodiesel? How does biodiesel compare to kerosene anyway? Thanks for the help, Kelly Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] test - please ignore
Test only, sorry. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] test
See: http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/home.html on 3/30/02 8:25 AM, steve spence at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: diesels always add air at atmospheric pressure? most diesels are turbo or supercharged. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: useravav [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 6:59 PM Subject: [biofuel] test I tested my 1985 VW Jetta diesel for it operation on propane as I intend to modify it for multi-fuels use. While idling on diesel I injected gaseous propane from my hand torch and its RPM doubled, there was no pre-ignition, knocking, missing or smoke coming out of the tailpipe. The air in the engine is compressed to a ratio of 23 to 1, getting quite hot but that does not ignite gaseous propane as its compresses with the air, but it is ignited when the diesel fuel is injected into the cylinder, diesel fuel ignites at a far lower temperature then propane and supplies the ignition for the propane. Not only should this allow diesels to operate on propane but probably also natural gas, methane and wood-gas. When idling the diesel engine uses very little diesel or bio-diesel fuel and can be used as a simple way to operate engines on gaseous fuels. With gasoline engines air fuel ratios must be constant throughout its range of operation but with a diesel engine air always enters the cylinder at atmospheric pressure and its power is controlled only by the addition of fuel. Does anyone know of where there is information on using diesel engines for gaseous fuel operation? George Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] test
yep, it's a nice kit. I can't make my own propane, so I'm not really interested, unless I get back into methane digestion. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel-JTF biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 12:35 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] test See: http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/home.html on 3/30/02 8:25 AM, steve spence at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: diesels always add air at atmospheric pressure? most diesels are turbo or supercharged. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: useravav [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 6:59 PM Subject: [biofuel] test I tested my 1985 VW Jetta diesel for it operation on propane as I intend to modify it for multi-fuels use. While idling on diesel I injected gaseous propane from my hand torch and its RPM doubled, there was no pre-ignition, knocking, missing or smoke coming out of the tailpipe. The air in the engine is compressed to a ratio of 23 to 1, getting quite hot but that does not ignite gaseous propane as its compresses with the air, but it is ignited when the diesel fuel is injected into the cylinder, diesel fuel ignites at a far lower temperature then propane and supplies the ignition for the propane. Not only should this allow diesels to operate on propane but probably also natural gas, methane and wood-gas. When idling the diesel engine uses very little diesel or bio-diesel fuel and can be used as a simple way to operate engines on gaseous fuels. With gasoline engines air fuel ratios must be constant throughout its range of operation but with a diesel engine air always enters the cylinder at atmospheric pressure and its power is controlled only by the addition of fuel. Does anyone know of where there is information on using diesel engines for gaseous fuel operation? George Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] test
- Original Message - From: useravav [EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] Does anyone know of where there is information on using diesel engines for gaseous fuel operation? [snip] George, The technique is called fumigation. Quite a bit about it on web, a google search will bring up plenty of information. Regards, Paul Gobert. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Yahoo - was Re: [biofuel] Test
I'm up for it How many people are on this list? Is there any way to get a list of emails? I'm just trying to figure out how you would automatically switch people over. Or if you would just ask them to subscribe to the new list. I still have to set up listserv software, but that is trivial. Let me know -Martin --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Time for a move maybe? What think you, Martin, if you're reading this? Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ List owner Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ = -Martin Klingensmith http://archive.nnytech.net/ http://devzero.ath.cx/ http://www.nnytech.net/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Test
Test Time sent -- 21:43 Please excuse this post. Something is going on with my e-mail, I've posted a few times today, but, have only recieved 1 of my post to come back thru the group e-mail. So I am seeing how long it is taking to get back to me, in effort to find out were the problem is. Greg H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Test
Time recieved -- 17:11 the next day. - Original Message - From: Greg and April To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 21:43 Subject: [biofuel] Test Test Time sent -- 21:43 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Test
Remove me from your e-mail list now! Stanjhnnyb Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Test
It's Yahoo. ref http:// Jesse Parris|studio53| graphics / web design| stamford, ct|[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ This information , and any attachments may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the attention and use of the named addressee(s). ~~~ - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 8:43 PM Subject: [biofuel] Test Test Time sent -- 21:43 Please excuse this post. Something is going on with my e-mail, I've posted a few times today, but, have only recieved 1 of my post to come back thru the group e-mail. So I am seeing how long it is taking to get back to me, in effort to find out were the problem is. Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
