Re: [Biofuel] water, ethanol and gasoline
When 160 proof ethanol and gasoline are mixed, what happens? does the gasoline mix with the ethanol and the water separate out from the ethanol and fall to the bottom? No. Your motor will stop. You will get a suspension of water and petrol (or gasoline, as you call it). I found that out with the motor of my boat last year and had to swim half an hour to get ashore. Greetings, Pieter Netherlands. thanks -Mark ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] water, ethanol and gasoline
Some comments by Sir Harry Ricardo about his early work with fuels just after World War I may be of interest. This is from his book Memories and Machines (London: Constable, 1968): (Those intersted in the workings of piston engines should read The High-Speed Internal Combustion Engine by Ricardo and Hempson (5th edition, Blackie, 1957) or earlier editions by Ricardo alone) Our investigation into the behaviour of fuels of the alcohol group brought into prominence the important part played by the latent heat of evaporation of the liquid fuel. The calorific value of say, ethyl alcohol is much less than that of petrol, but its latent heat of evaporation is about three times greater. According to Tizard and Pye's calculations the total heat energy of a standard cubic inch of an air/alcohol mixture was very slightly less than that for a straight alcohol fuel. Other things being equal, the power output returnable from an alcohol fuel should be correspondingly less; in fact we found it to be between 5 and 10% greater, the discrepancy being due to the lower temperature and therefore greater density of the mixture entering the cylinder. In short we were making use of the high latent heat of evaporation of alcohol to supercharge the cylinder by refrigeration to a degree that more than compensated for the lower internal energy per standard cubic inch of mixture. This observation suggested to us that it might be amusing to concoct a special fuel mixture for racing-cars and motorcycles. I discussed this possibility with Waley Cohen who had no objection, in fact, he, too, thought it would be rather fun. Ethyl alcohol, unlike its sister methyl, did not suffer from pre-ignition or detonation, even at the highest compression we could reach with our E35 [research] engine, but because of its poor volatility, cold starting with neat ethyl alcohol was virtually impossible. We had therefore to add a small proportion of a much more volatile fuel for the sake not only of startability but also of distribution in a multi-cylinder engine. The choice lay between methyl alcohol and acetone, and for a variety of reasons we chose the latter. Because of the low calorific value of ethyl alcohol we tried adding a substantial proportion of benzole as a thermal makeweight, while to compensate for the much lower latent heat of the latter, we added between 5 and 10 per cent of water. The presence of a small proportion of acetone served to act as a mutual solvent and formed a stable mixture between these otherwise incompatible components; thus we arrived at a fuel which in our E35 engine showed no trace of detonation or pre-ignition at its higest ratio of 8 to 1 or, expressd in modern terms, at an octane number of at least 100, as compared with about fifty in that of commercial petrol, and about sixty in that of the best aviation spirit... As applied to an existing engine without any modification other than fitting larger jets to the carburettor, this racing fuel gave, at high engine speeds, an increase in power output of between 5 and 10%, but when an engine was suitably modified to provide for a compression ratio of the order of 8 to 1, as much as a 30% increase could be obtained. Its use also had the advantage that its high latent heat of evaporation, most of which took place after its entry into the cylinder, both lowered the cycle temperature and, at the same time, provided much needed cooling to the piston and exhaust valve. For use on the road, however, this fuel mixure was not satisfactory, for its poor volatility involved bad distribution at low engine speed with consequent rough running and sluggish acceleration. To combat this it was necessary to employ a very rich mixture which, together with the low calorific value of the fuel, meant that the mileage per gallon was only about half that obtainable with petrol. As the price per gallon was about four times that of petrol, the real use of the fuel was limited to track racing at Brooklands and to hill climbing competitions... ...The introduction of this fuel broguht confusion to the committee responsible for handicapping, and after one season's racing its use, like that of pressure supercharging, was banned, but large quantities of the fuel continued to be sold to enthusiastic amateurs for ordinary road use despite its high cost and other drawbacks... Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] water, ethanol and gasoline
I have read much information that indicates ethanol has to be a higher proof (180+?) if it is to be mixed with gasoline. The reasoning given is that gasoline does not mix with water. I have been in the auto parts business for years and we sell gasoline additives that claim to remove moisture from the gasoline. I just checked one of these additives and it has a principle ingredient of Isopropyl Alcohol. I always assumed that ethanol would mix with water and gasoline to form one compound that would burn. But, after reading some of the ethanol material, i realize that i must be mistaken. When 160 proof ethanol and gasoline are mixed, what happens? does the gasoline mix with the ethanol and the water separate out from the ethanol and fall to the bottom? Why would isopropyl alcohol behave differently than ethanol? Why has our country converged on E85 as the alternative fuel of choice for gasoline vehicles? Is there any positive benefit from the gasoline added the ethanol, other than denaturing it? thanks -Mark ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] water, ethanol and gasoline
You were right in the first assumption water and alcohol mix to make a flammable blend not as good B T U value as gasoline but much much better that water. Then the water/alcohol mix will blend with the gas thus dewatering the fuel in the tank. It is possible to use isopropyl ethanol or methanol to accomplish the same results. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Kennedy Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:55 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] water, ethanol and gasoline I have read much information that indicates ethanol has to be a higher proof (180+?) if it is to be mixed with gasoline. The reasoning given is that gasoline does not mix with water. I have been in the auto parts business for years and we sell gasoline additives that claim to remove moisture from the gasoline. I just checked one of these additives and it has a principle ingredient of Isopropyl Alcohol. I always assumed that ethanol would mix with water and gasoline to form one compound that would burn. But, after reading some of the ethanol material, i realize that i must be mistaken. When 160 proof ethanol and gasoline are mixed, what happens? does the gasoline mix with the ethanol and the water separate out from the ethanol and fall to the bottom? Why would isopropyl alcohol behave differently than ethanol? Why has our country converged on E85 as the alternative fuel of choice for gasoline vehicles? Is there any positive benefit from the gasoline added the ethanol, other than denaturing it? thanks -Mark ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] water, ethanol and gasoline
- On Jan 25, 2006, at 9:54 AM, Mark Kennedy wrote: When 160 proof ethanol and gasoline are mixed, what happens? does the gasoline mix with the ethanol and the water separate out from the ethanol and fall to the bottom? It's complicated. do a Google search on ternary phase diagram ethanol water gasoline. With enough ethanol in the mix (70% by weight), any combination of gasoline and water will combine with the ethanol into a single phase. As the ethanol drops below the 70% level, an aqueous phase separates from the gasoline if the water fraction exceeds a small value. The exact amount of ethanol needed to keep a small amount of water dissolved in the gasoline depends sensitively on the amount of water. Once phase separation occurs, the proportion of ethanol that stays in the gasoline versus separating out with the water depends on the amounts of the three constituents. The phase diagram will make this clear. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
