[biofuel] Re: inline glow plug for SVO heating?
I like the idea of inline heating of the SVO, but... The size of the fuse does not regulate the current in a glow plug; it only breaks the circuit once the current exceeds the fuse rating. The simple formula V=I*R is helpful here. Or turn it around to I=V/R. Measure the resistance with a good digital ohmmeter. For example, if you have 1.0 ohm on the glow plug and 13V on a battery, then the glow plug wants 13 amps. In this case, a 10A fuse would simply blow immediately. The power requirement would be 13A * 13V = 169Watts. Another idea to consider is to use two glow plugs wired in series to reduce the power. This doubles the resistance. With P=V*I and I=V/R you get the formula P=V*V/R =13*13/2 = 85Watts. This would require 6.5Amps. Also, it was suggested by someone else that the glow plug fuel heater should be placed upstream of the fuel filter. I believe the Ford Powerstroke diesel has a heater wire in the fuel filter bowl in order to preheat the fuel. Furthermore, this fuel bowl is nestled in the V of the block and so benefits from the engine block heat. You might want to look at this concept, maybe even retro this fuel filter/heater assembly into your setup. Good luck, Rob --- Martin Klingensmith wrote: Joshua wrote: Your typical triac phase-shaping dimmer will not work on DC, this can't be what they're using. If it turns out that they need a control, I could make a simple one. Quite right, we're using an automotive dimmer for a heater... it's great, even says HEAT on it. ;) We haven't actually tested it yet, though, so we're not sure how low it'll get the glow plug. 120 watts on the small surface area of a glow plug is probably too much for oil. I'm guessing about 30 watts would be decent. I'm not exactly sure about watts, but we've got it run through a 20 amp fuse, though we might put a 10 amp on there. Cheers, Joshua A 10 amp fuse means the current would have to stay somewhere below 13v * 10 amps = 130 watts. 20 amps would be less than 260 watts. Let us know how it works our for you. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: inline glow plug for SVO heating?
rob crowley wrote: I like the idea of inline heating of the SVO, but... The size of the fuse does not regulate the current in a glow plug; it only breaks the circuit once the current exceeds the fuse rating. Hi Rob, I said the current would be somewhat less than whatever fuse he used [and if the fuse blew then the current was higher]. Without knowing the resistance of the heater I wasn't going to speculate. -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: inline glow plug for SVO heating?
For example, if you have 1.0 ohm on the glow plug and 13V on a battery, then the glow plug wants 13 amps. In this case, a 10A fuse would simply blow immediately. The power requirement would be 13A * 13V = 169Watts. but be careful - i don't think it's quite that simple. as the glow plugs heat up the resistance changes. i don't know what the graph would look like, but it's not a constant. Another idea to consider is to use two glow plugs wired in series to reduce the power. This doubles the resistance. With P=V*I and I=V/R you get the formula P=V*V/R =13*13/2 = 85Watts. This would require 6.5Amps. another benefit of using multiple plugs in series is having more surface area for heating of the oil. i like that idea. Also, it was suggested by someone else that the glow plug fuel heater should be placed upstream of the fuel filter. I believe the Ford Powerstroke diesel has a heater wire in the fuel filter bowl in order to preheat the fuel. Furthermore, this fuel bowl is nestled in the V of the block and so benefits from the engine block heat. You might want to look at this concept, maybe even retro this fuel filter/heater assembly into your setup. Good luck, Rob __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: inline glow plug for SVO heating?
Okay, I'm very excited by all the interest that has been shown in this group to the inline glow plug heater. Here's the update! We have been delayed in our actual running of the bus due to a cracked head, but we are doing the heads and will be running again in less than a week. Yesterday we did a very promising test. We have an automotive heater knob with four settings (off, high, med, and low in that order) and we have it run to the glow plug after the lighted truck switch. We tested the glow plug in it, and it certainly seems to get a great range of heat. On low, it gets just barely hot enough to burn your hand, on med, it gets rather hot but not glowing, and on high it glows red. I know these are some very inacurate measurements, but they are promising for us none the less. As for fuses, we have tested the glow plug with a 10a and a 20a fuse, and we have certainly not blown any yet. Right now, I believe we have a 20a in there, but we may lower it to 10 and see what happens. The lighted switch is rated to 20a, and the fuse is wired before both switches. Some have suggested that we need to have a filter installed after this, and although this inline glow plug is after our special heated Racor 900FG filter, it is before the regular fuel filter that sits right at the top of the engine not far before the fuel goes into the injection pump. To make sure everyone is clear how we did it, the glow plug is installed in a brass T in the rubber fuel lines before the fuel goes into the transfer pump. We put it here because we were very hesitant to cut into and bend metal flared fuel lines. Another element we have installed only 5 or 6 inches from the inline glow plug is a mechanical temperature sensor run to a guage in the dash, so with the adjustable heat on the glow plug, we should be able to fairly fine tune the temperature of the fuel at this juncture. Does anyone know the optimum temperature for the WVO to reach? Does anyone know at what fuel temperature we risk melting rubber fuel lines? These are the only questions that we haven't satisfactorily answered yet. Anyway, I will certanily keep the group informed. I think that the notion of using a glow plug in this way is going to prove very effective and is rather low cost as a heating system for fuel. To clarify, we are using a two tank system, so we are of course going to turn this glow plug off when we are running diesel, and this glow plug has nothing to do with the normal functioning of glow plugs in the head. Anyway, that's all for now, cheers! Joshua Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: inline glow plug for SVO heating?
Thank you for your input. Since the fuel going through the glow plug will be flowing, and never remaining stationary, we are hoping that it doesn't get too hot to melt the lines. We also have a temperature sensor installed similarly in the fuel line (with a brass T and rubber hose nipples) about six inches past the glow plug T to monitor the temperature of the fuel. We are, howerver, considering putting the glow plug and sensor actually in the metal fuel line just after the last fuel filter, just before it goes into the injection pump to make sure that our reading is as accurate as possible. However, this is a rather more difficult place to mount it, as those are fitted metal lines, and flared fittings and all that jazz. So where it is now is much easier, and it is the last place the fuel goes before it is entirely in metal lines. Rubber lines are rather easier to work with. Does anyone have any notion of the optimum temperature for vegetable oil to reach where it's viscosity is exactly that of diesel fuel? We have blown one injection pump running on SVO and since been mixing it with about 20% diesel to avoid that, cause the injection pump costs $500. As for the dimmer switch, it is not a household one, but an automotive 12v one with three settings, and we have that run after the lighted switch, so both have to be on for power to reach the glow plug. Anyway, we also discovered today that our head is cracked, so we'll be fiddling a while longer while getting a replacement, so please, suggestions, criticism, whatever ya all got! ;) Love and Light! Joshua --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Erik Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i would be worried about that glow plug getting too hot for sure! i think that they draw about 9-12 amps per plug, and that's a lot of current to go thru a dimmer switch. if it's a dimmer from a house circuit i suspect that it wouldn't hold up. that kind of current is equivalent to something like 1000-1500 watts load on a 120V circuit. (it's the amps that's the problem in sizing electrics, in case you don't know.) i doubt that a normal dimmer is rated that high. and if you want to see how hot a glow plug will get then you can hook a positive wire from the battery to the wire terminal and holding it in a pair of pliers ground the case to some bare metal on the vehicle. it doesn't take long at all for that thing to very literally GLOW! they get red and even white hot. according to this page: http://www.forparts.com/bosglowplugs.htm they can get to 1000-1100 C! so unless you have VERY careful control i would say there's a very real chance of having problems with the fuel being too hot and melting the rubber hoses. this sounds like an interesting low tech type thing, but extreme caution is called for, seems to me. this page also shows similiar temp ranges: http://www.ngk.de/Sheathed_type_glow_plugs.691.0.html and if it was me, i'd try to go with a vw glow plug, since they last forever, as compared to the ford or gm ones which i've replaced many times over the years. seems every year or two they need changing out. good luck, but please be careful! i'd love to hear the results if you decide to proceed with it. erik --- Joshua [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello! Well, we are converting two diesel school buses to SVO. Both are International, one 6.9l and the other a 7.2l. Our conversions work relatively well, but we are adding an extra heating element, and that is a GLOW PLUG, installed in a brass T directly in the fuel line, just before it goes into the transfer pump. Has anyone ever done this? We are slightly concerned about the fuel getting TOO hot. We of course have a switch to turn the glow plug on and off when we want, and even a three way dimmer knob to adjust the amount of power going to the glow plug, but we don't have a whole lot of experience with glow plugs. Does anyone know exactly how hot a glow plug gets? Our only concern is melting the rubber fuel hose, but I am skeptical of that. The only other concern is that we are using teflon thread tape to keep the glow plug fitting tight, and there has been some concern expressed about the diesel fuel disolving that, or the heat causing it to degrade? We have seen one person at the National Rainbow Gathering who had a glow plug installed in a similar way (except we threaded it in, and he's got it JB Welded!). This is where we got the idea, but I am interested in any input anyone has in this concept. Anyway, thank you so much! Cheers, Joshua __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM
[biofuel] Re: inline glow plug for SVO heating?
Another thing to think about is if the glow plug gets hot and carbonizes some veg oil on it, then the carbon sloughs off and heads into your IP. If I were doing it, I would place the glow plug heater so that the vegoil flows through the glow plug heater, then through your filter before it hits the IP. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Joshua [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you for your input. Since the fuel going through the glow plug will be flowing, and never remaining stationary, we are hoping that it doesn't get too hot to melt the lines. We also have a temperature sensor installed similarly in the fuel line (with a brass T and rubber hose nipples) about six inches past the glow plug T to monitor the temperature of the fuel. We are, howerver, considering putting the glow plug and sensor actually in the metal fuel line just after the last fuel filter, just before it goes into the injection pump to make sure that our reading is as accurate as possible. However, this is a rather more difficult place to mount it, as those are fitted metal lines, and flared fittings and all that jazz. So where it is now is much easier, and it is the last place the fuel goes before it is entirely in metal lines. Rubber lines are rather easier to work with. Does anyone have any notion of the optimum temperature for vegetable oil to reach where it's viscosity is exactly that of diesel fuel? We have blown one injection pump running on SVO and since been mixing it with about 20% diesel to avoid that, cause the injection pump costs $500. As for the dimmer switch, it is not a household one, but an automotive 12v one with three settings, and we have that run after the lighted switch, so both have to be on for power to reach the glow plug. Anyway, we also discovered today that our head is cracked, so we'll be fiddling a while longer while getting a replacement, so please, suggestions, criticism, whatever ya all got! ;) Love and Light! Joshua Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: inline glow plug for SVO heating?
Your typical triac phase-shaping dimmer will not work on DC, this can't be what they're using. If it turns out that they need a control, I could make a simple one. Quite right, we're using an automotive dimmer for a heater... it's great, even says HEAT on it. ;) We haven't actually tested it yet, though, so we're not sure how low it'll get the glow plug. 120 watts on the small surface area of a glow plug is probably too much for oil. I'm guessing about 30 watts would be decent. I'm not exactly sure about watts, but we've got it run through a 20 amp fuse, though we might put a 10 amp on there. Cheers, Joshua Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: inline glow plug for SVO heating?
Joshua wrote: Your typical triac phase-shaping dimmer will not work on DC, this can't be what they're using. If it turns out that they need a control, I could make a simple one. Quite right, we're using an automotive dimmer for a heater... it's great, even says HEAT on it. ;) We haven't actually tested it yet, though, so we're not sure how low it'll get the glow plug. 120 watts on the small surface area of a glow plug is probably too much for oil. I'm guessing about 30 watts would be decent. I'm not exactly sure about watts, but we've got it run through a 20 amp fuse, though we might put a 10 amp on there. Cheers, Joshua A 10 amp fuse means the current would have to stay somewhere below 13v * 10 amps = 130 watts. 20 amps would be less than 260 watts. Let us know how it works our for you. -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
