Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], jmwelter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that much of the grain produced in the world is directly fed to livestock and there are advantages and disadvantages here: advantages: a)the nutrients found in meat are more available to our bodies than those found in plants (especially proteins and fats) b)dairy cows fed distillers grains will produce more milk with higher protein (the stuff is extremely expensive because of that by the way) c)animal manure is the most efficient fertilizer compared to those made from oil! (and this should be the #1 consideration for renewable fuels since not all oil becomes gasoline but a major chunk is converted into ammonia and other fertilizers which increase yield while sacrificing the microorganisms which are the lifeblood of organic farming. disadvantage: a)except for feeding to dairy animals for milk production, the use of grains to feed cattle for meat is a very inefficient one. my conclusion: BALANCE Let me tip your balance a bit. When those Dairy cows you mentioned eat the DDGs (Distiller's Dried Grains) they produce manure. STOP! Don't put it on the field yet. Pass it through a Methane Digester first. You gain a bunch of energy in a usable form, and the manure is now odorless, and still has all the nutrients in it. The only thing missing is the energy. Some tests(no link handy) have shown the manure to be an even better fertilizer after the anaerobic bacteria have broken it down, making it more available to the plants, and less likely to wash into a stream. TILT! Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
indeed, see http://www.methane-gas.com and http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/methane.htm Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:56 AM Subject: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], jmwelter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that much of the grain produced in the world is directly fed to livestock and there are advantages and disadvantages here: advantages: a)the nutrients found in meat are more available to our bodies than those found in plants (especially proteins and fats) b)dairy cows fed distillers grains will produce more milk with higher protein (the stuff is extremely expensive because of that by the way) c)animal manure is the most efficient fertilizer compared to those made from oil! (and this should be the #1 consideration for renewable fuels since not all oil becomes gasoline but a major chunk is converted into ammonia and other fertilizers which increase yield while sacrificing the microorganisms which are the lifeblood of organic farming. disadvantage: a)except for feeding to dairy animals for milk production, the use of grains to feed cattle for meat is a very inefficient one. my conclusion: BALANCE Let me tip your balance a bit. When those Dairy cows you mentioned eat the DDGs (Distiller's Dried Grains) they produce manure. STOP! Don't put it on the field yet. Pass it through a Methane Digester first. You gain a bunch of energy in a usable form, and the manure is now odorless, and still has all the nutrients in it. The only thing missing is the energy. Some tests(no link handy) have shown the manure to be an even better fertilizer after the anaerobic bacteria have broken it down, making it more available to the plants, and less likely to wash into a stream. TILT! Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
For more energy savings, if spoilage is not an issue (i.e. cattle feeding operation is nearby), stillage does not need to be totally dried to DDGS. It can be fed only partially dried. steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/01/2002 05:49 AM Please respond to biofuel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR) Subject:Re: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again indeed, see http://www.methane-gas.com and http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/methane.htm Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:56 AM Subject: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], jmwelter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that much of the grain produced in the world is directly fed to livestock and there are advantages and disadvantages here: advantages: a)the nutrients found in meat are more available to our bodies than those found in plants (especially proteins and fats) b)dairy cows fed distillers grains will produce more milk with higher protein (the stuff is extremely expensive because of that by the way) c)animal manure is the most efficient fertilizer compared to those made from oil! (and this should be the #1 consideration for renewable fuels since not all oil becomes gasoline but a major chunk is converted into ammonia and other fertilizers which increase yield while sacrificing the microorganisms which are the lifeblood of organic farming. disadvantage: a)except for feeding to dairy animals for milk production, the use of grains to feed cattle for meat is a very inefficient one. my conclusion: BALANCE Let me tip your balance a bit. When those Dairy cows you mentioned eat the DDGs (Distiller's Dried Grains) they produce manure. STOP! Don't put it on the field yet. Pass it through a Methane Digester first. You gain a bunch of energy in a usable form, and the manure is now odorless, and still has all the nutrients in it. The only thing missing is the energy. Some tests(no link handy) have shown the manure to be an even better fertilizer after the anaerobic bacteria have broken it down, making it more available to the plants, and less likely to wash into a stream. TILT! Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
No Motie...no confusion here. Are you aware that distiller's grains are fed to livestock? Are you also aware that the vast majority of arable landmass is dedicated to livestock? Are you aware that the primary product of low-oil yielding soybeans is feed meal for livestock? In a nutshell, the vast majority of all agriculture is dedicated to livestock - even in the midst of farming for fuel issues. Just from the total caloric inputs vs. caloric yield equation, you might consider taking a look at Rifkin's Beyond Beef or Robbin's Diet for a New America. The simple facts of the matter are that most of what you and others call energy crops at present are actually primary livestock feed sources. The fact that ethanol can be derived from the grain prior to the feeding of livestock, or the fact that the oil extracted from soy can be turned into biodiesel while the primary product goes to livestock are in themselves declarative that what many perceive as wasteful practices are actually rather utilitarian. Unfortunately, many people, inclusive of Pimental, Club Sierra, and other self-interest groups fail to acknowledge the multiple end uses of all the primary and coproducts, essentially pigeon holing the mechanical energy issue and errantly declaring energy products from crops as being wasteful. Balderdash...Pure Hornswaggle and Tommy rot...! What would be wasteful is if the distillers grains or soy meal were just thrown on the dung heap, rather than utilizing them - which is not what happens in the real world. Perhaps if one these people want to make declarations as to wasteful agrarian energy practices from the caloric inputs vs caloric outputs perspective, they should start with that Bacon Egg and Cheese Biscuit they had for breakfast, the McNuggets or Whopper they had for lunch or that roast simmering on the stove for dinner. But then, that's getting too personal. It's much easier just to address energy issues in the main, as we've all been in the habit of attacking traditional dirty energy supplies such as coal, oil and nuclear. Why shouldn't biodiesel or ethanol be made an equally visible target? It sure conveniently takes the heat off our personal dining practices, which in their market entirety are the driving mechanisms of most agriculture - considerably more of an impetus than our automobiles are. Maybe we should put a few farmers to work on ways to feed the by-products of coal, oil and nuclear to livestock, so we can get as maximum a utility factor from them as we do from corn and oilseeds. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:08 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Arguments against US corn and soybean biofuel seems outlandish IF it boosts bushel price due to increased demand thus lowering US gov't subsidize payments helping to balance US deficits You can take my discussion points as either for or against, depending on your perspective. I agree with the use of EXCESS crop production being used for energy purposes. I dislike the inefficiencies of it. If farmers are going to grow energy crops, I think they should be growing Sugar Beets for Ethanol, or several alternative higher- yielding Oil Crops instead of Soybeans. I think it is foolish to grow Corn with the intention to produce Ethanol from it. If the corn has been grown for feed, and has been overproduced, of course it should be converted instead of left to rot. Have I thoroughly confused everyone yet? Motie and I would think the savings might provide synergy for invested interest in further development of the next big oil bonanza. Maybe a gov't.inc revenue restructuring without further citizen tax dollar giveaways and perhaps a boost for business/job development. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
Bravo! Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/30/2002 02:38 PM Please respond to biofuel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR) Subject:Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again No Motie...no confusion here. Are you aware that distiller's grains are fed to livestock? Are you also aware that the vast majority of arable landmass is dedicated to livestock? Are you aware that the primary product of low-oil yielding soybeans is feed meal for livestock? In a nutshell, the vast majority of all agriculture is dedicated to livestock - even in the midst of farming for fuel issues. Just from the total caloric inputs vs. caloric yield equation, you might consider taking a look at Rifkin's Beyond Beef or Robbin's Diet for a New America. The simple facts of the matter are that most of what you and others call energy crops at present are actually primary livestock feed sources. The fact that ethanol can be derived from the grain prior to the feeding of livestock, or the fact that the oil extracted from soy can be turned into biodiesel while the primary product goes to livestock are in themselves declarative that what many perceive as wasteful practices are actually rather utilitarian. Unfortunately, many people, inclusive of Pimental, Club Sierra, and other self-interest groups fail to acknowledge the multiple end uses of all the primary and coproducts, essentially pigeon holing the mechanical energy issue and errantly declaring energy products from crops as being wasteful. Balderdash...Pure Hornswaggle and Tommy rot...! What would be wasteful is if the distillers grains or soy meal were just thrown on the dung heap, rather than utilizing them - which is not what happens in the real world. Perhaps if one these people want to make declarations as to wasteful agrarian energy practices from the caloric inputs vs caloric outputs perspective, they should start with that Bacon Egg and Cheese Biscuit they had for breakfast, the McNuggets or Whopper they had for lunch or that roast simmering on the stove for dinner. But then, that's getting too personal. It's much easier just to address energy issues in the main, as we've all been in the habit of attacking traditional dirty energy supplies such as coal, oil and nuclear. Why shouldn't biodiesel or ethanol be made an equally visible target? It sure conveniently takes the heat off our personal dining practices, which in their market entirety are the driving mechanisms of most agriculture - considerably more of an impetus than our automobiles are. Maybe we should put a few farmers to work on ways to feed the by-products of coal, oil and nuclear to livestock, so we can get as maximum a utility factor from them as we do from corn and oilseeds. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:08 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Arguments against US corn and soybean biofuel seems outlandish IF it boosts bushel price due to increased demand thus lowering US gov't subsidize payments helping to balance US deficits You can take my discussion points as either for or against, depending on your perspective. I agree with the use of EXCESS crop production being used for energy purposes. I dislike the inefficiencies of it. If farmers are going to grow energy crops, I think they should be growing Sugar Beets for Ethanol, or several alternative higher- yielding Oil Crops instead of Soybeans. I think it is foolish to grow Corn with the intention to produce Ethanol from it. If the corn has been grown for feed, and has been overproduced, of course it should be converted instead of left to rot. Have I thoroughly confused everyone yet? Motie and I would think the savings might provide synergy for invested interest in further development of the next big oil bonanza. Maybe a gov't.inc revenue restructuring without further citizen tax dollar giveaways and perhaps a boost for business/job development. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--
Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
I agree that much of the grain produced in the world is directly fed to livestock and there are advantages and disadvantages here: advantages: a)the nutrients found in meat are more available to our bodies than those found in plants (especially proteins and fats) b)dairy cows fed distillers grains will produce more milk with higher protein (the stuff is extremely expensive because of that by the way) c)animal manure is the most efficient fertilizer compared to those made from oil! (and this should be the #1 consideration for renewable fuels since not all oil becomes gasoline but a major chunk is converted into ammonia and other fertilizers which increase yield while sacrificing the microorganisms which are the lifeblood of organic farming. disadvantage: a)except for feeding to dairy animals for milk production, the use of grains to feed cattle for meat is a very inefficient one. my conclusion: BALANCE --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No Motie...no confusion here. Are you aware that distiller's grains are fed to livestock? Are you also aware that the vast majority of arable landmass is dedicated to livestock? Are you aware that the primary product of low-oil yielding soybeans is feed meal for livestock? In a nutshell, the vast majority of all agriculture is dedicated to livestock - even in the midst of farming for fuel issues. Just from the total caloric inputs vs. caloric yield equation, you might consider taking a look at Rifkin's Beyond Beef or Robbin's Diet for a New America. The simple facts of the matter are that most of what you and others call energy crops at present are actually primary livestock feed sources. The fact that ethanol can be derived from the grain prior to the feeding of livestock, or the fact that the oil extracted from soy can be turned into biodiesel while the primary product goes to livestock are in themselves declarative that what many perceive as wasteful practices are actually rather utilitarian. Unfortunately, many people, inclusive of Pimental, Club Sierra, and other self-interest groups fail to acknowledge the multiple end uses of all the primary and coproducts, essentially pigeon holing the mechanical energy issue and errantly declaring energy products from crops as being wasteful. Balderdash...Pure Hornswaggle and Tommy rot...! What would be wasteful is if the distillers grains or soy meal were just thrown on the dung heap, rather than utilizing them - which is not what happens in the real world. Perhaps if one these people want to make declarations as to wasteful agrarian energy practices from the caloric inputs vs caloric outputs perspective, they should start with that Bacon Egg and Cheese Biscuit they had for breakfast, the McNuggets or Whopper they had for lunch or that roast simmering on the stove for dinner. But then, that's getting too personal. It's much easier just to address energy issues in the main, as we've all been in the habit of attacking traditional dirty energy supplies such as coal, oil and nuclear. Why shouldn't biodiesel or ethanol be made an equally visible target? It sure conveniently takes the heat off our personal dining practices, which in their market entirety are the driving mechanisms of most agriculture - considerably more of an impetus than our automobiles are. Maybe we should put a few farmers to work on ways to feed the by-products of coal, oil and nuclear to livestock, so we can get as maximum a utility factor from them as we do from corn and oilseeds. Todd Swearingen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
I don't claim to be a nutritionist, but could you define what you mean by available? There is a difference between being available and being usable. As well, there is also a difference between being available and being available in too high a ratio of caloric intake. Then of course there is always the cholesterol/saturated fat issue. I have a really difficult time accepting the broadness of such a premise. I'm not exactly protein or lipid deficient on an almost entirely vegetarian diet, or at least my tailor keeps telling me so each time I take the Levis in for alterations. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: jmwelter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 8:53 PM Subject: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again I agree that much of the grain produced in the world is directly fed to livestock and there are advantages and disadvantages here: advantages: a)the nutrients found in meat are more available to our bodies than those found in plants (especially proteins and fats) b)dairy cows fed distillers grains will produce more milk with higher protein (the stuff is extremely expensive because of that by the way) c)animal manure is the most efficient fertilizer compared to those made from oil! (and this should be the #1 consideration for renewable fuels since not all oil becomes gasoline but a major chunk is converted into ammonia and other fertilizers which increase yield while sacrificing the microorganisms which are the lifeblood of organic farming. disadvantage: a)except for feeding to dairy animals for milk production, the use of grains to feed cattle for meat is a very inefficient one. my conclusion: BALANCE --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No Motie...no confusion here. Are you aware that distiller's grains are fed to livestock? Are you also aware that the vast majority of arable landmass is dedicated to livestock? Are you aware that the primary product of low-oil yielding soybeans is feed meal for livestock? In a nutshell, the vast majority of all agriculture is dedicated to livestock - even in the midst of farming for fuel issues. Just from the total caloric inputs vs. caloric yield equation, you might consider taking a look at Rifkin's Beyond Beef or Robbin's Diet for a New America. The simple facts of the matter are that most of what you and others call energy crops at present are actually primary livestock feed sources. The fact that ethanol can be derived from the grain prior to the feeding of livestock, or the fact that the oil extracted from soy can be turned into biodiesel while the primary product goes to livestock are in themselves declarative that what many perceive as wasteful practices are actually rather utilitarian. Unfortunately, many people, inclusive of Pimental, Club Sierra, and other self-interest groups fail to acknowledge the multiple end uses of all the primary and coproducts, essentially pigeon holing the mechanical energy issue and errantly declaring energy products from crops as being wasteful. Balderdash...Pure Hornswaggle and Tommy rot...! What would be wasteful is if the distillers grains or soy meal were just thrown on the dung heap, rather than utilizing them - which is not what happens in the real world. Perhaps if one these people want to make declarations as to wasteful agrarian energy practices from the caloric inputs vs caloric outputs perspective, they should start with that Bacon Egg and Cheese Biscuit they had for breakfast, the McNuggets or Whopper they had for lunch or that roast simmering on the stove for dinner. But then, that's getting too personal. It's much easier just to address energy issues in the main, as we've all been in the habit of attacking traditional dirty energy supplies such as coal, oil and nuclear. Why shouldn't biodiesel or ethanol be made an equally visible target? It sure conveniently takes the heat off our personal dining practices, which in their market entirety are the driving mechanisms of most agriculture - considerably more of an impetus than our automobiles are. Maybe we should put a few farmers to work on ways to feed the by-products of coal, oil and nuclear to livestock, so we can get as maximum a utility factor from them as we do from corn and oilseeds. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM
