Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union
Hi David, Good to hear from you. I'm not mad and I will try not to take everything so personal. We do work hard for what we have here and we like to enjoy the fruits of our labor. I can't speak for our politicians but then neither can they. It's very hard to speak from both sides of their mouth. We do seem to wait until there is a crisis before we react(pearl harbor)but we do react. When the crisis comes we will jump into the problem with both feet and try to solve it. Sometimes we fail because we jump to fast. I am not going to wait for our president to make energy policies, I'm going to make my own policy and start making ethanol for home and auto use. My nephew has a race car and we are going to try the juice on it to see what happens. If it works OK on his rade car I'm going to try it on my 17 miles to the gallon guzzling '93 corvette. I will let everyone know how it works. Found a lot of good info on stills today thru journey to forever, thanks to Keith. Everbody on here has something to say. Some good some not so good but as they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Don't stop being critical but don't step on us yanks to hard, we're just people looking for a better life like everone else. We ain't perfect but we're trying. Thanks a bunch for your letter Regards, Ron Miller - Original Message - From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 12:03 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union Hi Ron, Yeah I will stop if all you Americans promise to consume not more than the 5% you are entitled to. No seriously Ron I am sorry if you think what I am saying is personal and I am attacking all you Americans. It is not you Americans I am opposed to but your consumption of energy and lack of what seems a coherent policy for the future. At a time when America and the rest of the world is crying out for a leader with vision and solutions to the coming energy crisis if we continue down the same path America seems to have taken a retrograde step with reference to energy. I cant see anything inspiring in the new Energy Policy that has just been released. As I was saying the other day one of the things that existed under the Kennedy era was a certain dynamic approach to solving problems that seems to be missing in the Bush administration and other current crop of world leaders. (And before you accuse me of being a Democrat I am not, nor Republican either). The only thing fundamentally wrong with democracy and politics is politicians. Most of them from my observations tend to be tarred with the same brush). I think part of this came about because America under Kennedy made up its mind right or wrong it was going to the Moon and getting involved in other aspects of the Space Policy and went ahead and did them. As a result it was rather a challenging age. Rather than looking for and pumping more oil which is only going to bring the crisis nearer, and sitting on their hands the time to get up and run with new policies and incentives is right now. In the end there may be no crisis; time has a way of presenting solutions; but sure as the Sun is going to come up tomorrow (unless you live in Antartica at present) if you sit on your hands that crisis is going to arise. In the end I expect a lot of those solutions will come from the States. While I may not like your current energy policies I would be the first to admit that America has invested very heavy in its Universities and it is these that are more likely to provide solutions than anything else. The quickest way to do this is to offer Research Scholarships, something that is done already but something that should be greatly accelerated. You dont win a war by throwing in a few more men at the front but throwing in a large complete battalion quite often makes a difference. By the way I am not anti American and I'm also of Scots descent (one of my great ancestors set up Edinburgh University) so as one sheep shaggers descendent to another dont take me too personally. Its also not the 50 million 4 legged sheep I worry about, but the other 4 million (I share this country with), and the other 6 billion (I share this planet with), two legged sheep. The world seems to be full of sheep and pigs. Why the sheep have to be ruled by the pigs I dont know. Bah, I mean bye. B.r., David - Original Message - From: ronald miller sr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union Hey, come on now, please stop the American bashing. We are all in this together although I would say we (Americans) should be leading the world in alternate fuel development. It's really hard for us little guys to fight the big oil companies and the government. The govenment did send me an application form for an alternate fuel plant(still
Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union
This climate change propaganda is a con job. Stop the crap. - Original Message - From: Ray Foulk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Millennium Debate [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 4:04 PM Subject: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union Dear All, A date for your diaries: 8.00pm, Wednesday 13th June 2001 MAKI MANDELA AT THE OXFORD UNION proposing the motion: THIS HOUSE CONDEMNS AMERICA'S NEGLECT OF CLIMATE CHANGE (as justice and efficacy demand that rich countries cut emissions before the Developing World joins in) Dr Mandela (Executive Director, Development Bank of South Africa and daughter of Nelson Mandela) is proposing the motion and will be supported by: Zac Goldsmith (editor, The Ecologist) She will be opposed by: Professor Philip Stott (Professor of Biogeography, University of London) and David Victor (Council on Relations, New York, USA). Attached is a press release and poster (you may be able to print the attached poster) for the Climate Change Debate the Millennium Debate is co-organising with Refocus Renewable Energy Magazine (Elsevier Publishers) at the Oxford Union on Wednesday June 13th at 8.00pm. We have arranged for this important event to be open to the public, so please spread the word via email to potentially interested parties. Posters are available to be put up, and tickets are available to sell. Tickets are £3.00 (£1.50 concessions) and you can take a batch of 5, 10, 20 tickets or more, depending on how many environmentally friendly friends and contacts you have. Tickets are available through the Millennium Debate or the designated ticket outlets in Oxford (details below). The Union holds 800 and we want to fill the place, so any ticket sales you can manage will help. Factions in the US do take note of Oxford Union debate results. Here's to a topical, heated debate - and to making this a lively, memorable event - hope to see you there! Many thanks Claire Palmer The MilIlennium Environment Debate 46 Nelson Street Oxford OX2 6BE T: +44 (0) 1865 552463 F: +44 (0) 1865 310773 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.millennium-debate.org Posters and tickets can be delivered, or are available at: The Millennium Debate, 46 Nelson Street, Jericho (used to be a pub, junction of Wellington St and Nelson St) 01865 552463 Mobile: 07775 698 549 Tickets available at : Uhuru Wholefoods, 48 Cowley Road Magic Cafe, 108 Magdalene Rd, East Oxford (off Iffley Road) Alpha Organic Cafe, 89 Oxford Covered Market (Market St entrance - 1st cafe on the right) 46 Nelson Street (junction of Wellington Street) Jericho Oxford --- Pre-press release EMBARGO TILL: 11am, 22 May 2001 Ms MANDELA TO LEAD CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE AT THE OXFORD UNION WEDNESDAY JUNE 13th 8.00pm. -- Why should America be responsible for cleaning up the world's air? George W Bush The daughter of the former South African president, Nelson Mandela, is to take on the new Bush administration at the Oxford Union on 13 June, by proposing that: This house Condemns America's Neglect of Climate Change (as justice and efficacy demand that rich countries cut emissions before the developing world joins in). In a joint initiative, Oxford based charity, The Millennium Debate and Elsevier Publisher's REFOCUS magazine (Renewable Energy Focus) are co-organising the public debate at the Oxford Union. They have made a special arrangement for non-members to attend on this occasion. The debate centres around US President George W. Bush's recent decision to withdraw from the Kyoto accord saying that Kyoto is unfair and exempts 80% of the world, including population centres like China and India, from compliance. The US stance, coming from a country with 5% of the world's population that emits over 25% of the total world greenhouse gas emissions, has lead to a world wide uproar, with some critics even proposing an all out trade war on the United States. Dr Maki Mandela insists that the issue is one that will affect the Developing World more than American businessmen. The US Embassy in London declined to put forward a speaker, though a representative from the Embassy will be in attendance. Major oil companies, Exon and Texaco have also declined to speak in the debate. Speakers for the motion: Dr Maki Mandela, Executive Director of the Development Bank of Southern Africa (and daughter of Nelson Mandela); Zac Goldsmith, Editor, The Ecologist Speakers against the motion: Philip Stott, Professor of Biogeography, University of London; and David G. Victor, Council on Foreign Relations, United States xxx TEL: 01865 552463, 01865 843648 or MOBILE: 07775 698 549 for more information [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list
Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union
Chuck, You are not an American by any chance are you? As a member of a country with less than 5% of the worlds population (280 million divided into 6 billion = 4.67% by my reckoning) using 60% of the worlds energy maybe you should be listened to and your viewpoint as the biggest energy user have dominance. Maybe you are right and its a con job but without people argueing and discussing it no resolution or solutions is/are ever going to evolve and resolve the problem if it exists. Personally I think its man using all these vehicles and man cutting down all the trees in the world. Or maybe its all these farting sheep down here in NZ. After all there is a big hole down here in the ozone layer near Antartica and if NZ is the closest to it there has to be a reason for it so maybe this sheep idea is not so stupid. Anyway as one of the people who live here and who is obviously one of the main contributors who am I to throw stones? B.r., David - Original Message - From: Chuck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 7:44 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union This climate change propaganda is a con job. Stop the crap. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union
Perhaps one of the greatest problems is stereotyping. I hav liked a most of the Americans and other human beings I have met. It seems to me that the current wave of American-bashing is probably closer to Bush Aministration bashing than anything else. I assume most of the guys on this group are genuinely interested in sustainable energy while maintaining their lifestyle. Great aims, but it seems that in America, like everywhere else, politics beauracracy can either help or hinder their citizens' perfectly legal wishes. By the way, I am a confirmed capitalist but that doesn't mean that I support everything that purports to be so. Thinking must be allowed! Just my two cents. Ricky Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union
We are told the ozone hole is due to atmospheric chlorine, not energy consumption. Man's contribution to the atmospheric chlorine is 1/2 of 1%. (1/200th) Its like saying a robin flying in front of a tornado is the reason you lost your roof. The largest measured ozone hole was in 1968 which is inconsistent with man made causes. The next biggest hole was after the eruption of Pinatubo. Stratospheric chlorine is enormously affected by volcanic eruption. Man's contribution is miniscule in comparison. -Original Message- From: David Reid [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 5:25 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union Chuck, You are not an American by any chance are you? As a member of a country with less than 5% of the worlds population (280 million divided into 6 billion = 4.67% by my reckoning) using 60% of the worlds energy maybe you should be listened to and your viewpoint as the biggest energy user have dominance. Maybe you are right and its a con job but without people argueing and discussing it no resolution or solutions is/are ever going to evolve and resolve the problem if it exists. Personally I think its man using all these vehicles and man cutting down all the trees in the world. Or maybe its all these farting sheep down here in NZ. After all there is a big hole down here in the ozone layer near Antartica and if NZ is the closest to it there has to be a reason for it so maybe this sheep idea is not so stupid. Anyway as one of the people who live here and who is obviously one of the main contributors who am I to throw stones? B.r., David - Original Message - From: Chuck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 7:44 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union This climate change propaganda is a con job. Stop the crap. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union
Atmospheric ozone over Antarctica was not measured prior to 68 (or 58. They say your memory is the second thing to go)Gordon Dobson set up the monitoring station at McMurdo. Note that atmospheric ozone is measured in Dobsons. It is believed the hole is an annual phenomena and has always been there unless you are a UN scientist and are arguing for the cessation of private property rights and we all must join to overcome problems that transcend boundaries. That is why these phenomena are called political science as they are more political than science. Kirk -Original Message- From: David Reid [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 6:05 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union Chuck, On further thoughts maybe the sheep idea is correct. Sheep didnt arrive in NZ until about 150 years ago and there definitely was no hole there or someone would have mentioned it. Perhaps we have got a lot of these lonely Scotsmen who obviously brought these animals as companions to blame. On second thoughts the number of sheep here has dropped from a high of 66 million or whatever it was in the early 70s to under 50 million today while the hole in the ozone has kept increasing so maybe these sheep arnt to blame after all. Without informed debate there is no problem as far as most people are concerned and no solutions can be arrived at or present themselves. At this stage to the outside world it appears America is not listening. You certainly cant have informed debate when the biggest and strongest participant pursues the path of might is right and I am going to do what I damn well want to do anyway. Yep Bush is the man for the job any day. His father proved that and a chip off the old block should do just as well. B.r., David - Original Message - From: Chuck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 7:44 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union This climate change propaganda is a con job. Stop the crap. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union
Forget catalytic converters. Think afterburners. As you survey your paddock you can revel in a thousand points of light. Kirk -Original Message- From: ronald miller sr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 7:04 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union Importance: High Hey, come on now, please stop the American bashing. We are all in this together although I would say we (Americans) should be leading the world in alternate fuel development. It's really hard for us little guys to fight the big oil companies and the government. The govenment did send me an application form for an alternate fuel plant(still)and it was only one form. As a Scottish American the only suggestion I could give on the sheep situation is to plug them with a catylitic converter (Just kidding) I really appreciate hearing views from other countries and I know a lot of people don't like us yanks but for the most part we are like any other bloaks around the world. Best regards, Ron Miller - Original Message - From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 6:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union Chuck, You are not an American by any chance are you? As a member of a country with less than 5% of the worlds population (280 million divided into 6 billion = 4.67% by my reckoning) using 60% of the worlds energy maybe you should be listened to and your viewpoint as the biggest energy user have dominance. Maybe you are right and its a con job but without people argueing and discussing it no resolution or solutions is/are ever going to evolve and resolve the problem if it exists. Personally I think its man using all these vehicles and man cutting down all the trees in the world. Or maybe its all these farting sheep down here in NZ. After all there is a big hole down here in the ozone layer near Antartica and if NZ is the closest to it there has to be a reason for it so maybe this sheep idea is not so stupid. Anyway as one of the people who live here and who is obviously one of the main contributors who am I to throw stones? B.r., David - Original Message - From: Chuck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 7:44 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union This climate change propaganda is a con job. Stop the crap. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union
Kirk, What a brilliant idea. Anyone want a contract for fitting 50 million piezo-electic crystals to 50 million sheep? We cant have farmers doing it or they will all be off on compo claiming ACC (Accident Compensation Corporation) payments as result of burnt wrists and hands. The govt will have to come to the party as if all the farmers go on strike the economy will come to a grinding halt. Mind you I suppose they could all get jobs in the cities and towns during the day and farm at night. Maybe thats the answer to the world energy and transportation problems: Flying jet sheep each with a passenger aboard. Any good cartoonists out there? B.r., David - Original Message - From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 2:43 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union Forget catalytic converters. Think afterburners. As you survey your paddock you can revel in a thousand points of light. Kirk Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union
Hi Ron, Yeah I will stop if all you Americans promise to consume not more than the 5% you are entitled to. No seriously Ron I am sorry if you think what I am saying is personal and I am attacking all you Americans. It is not you Americans I am opposed to but your consumption of energy and lack of what seems a coherent policy for the future. At a time when America and the rest of the world is crying out for a leader with vision and solutions to the coming energy crisis if we continue down the same path America seems to have taken a retrograde step with reference to energy. I cant see anything inspiring in the new Energy Policy that has just been released. As I was saying the other day one of the things that existed under the Kennedy era was a certain dynamic approach to solving problems that seems to be missing in the Bush administration and other current crop of world leaders. (And before you accuse me of being a Democrat I am not, nor Republican either). The only thing fundamentally wrong with democracy and politics is politicians. Most of them from my observations tend to be tarred with the same brush). I think part of this came about because America under Kennedy made up its mind right or wrong it was going to the Moon and getting involved in other aspects of the Space Policy and went ahead and did them. As a result it was rather a challenging age. Rather than looking for and pumping more oil which is only going to bring the crisis nearer, and sitting on their hands the time to get up and run with new policies and incentives is right now. In the end there may be no crisis; time has a way of presenting solutions; but sure as the Sun is going to come up tomorrow (unless you live in Antartica at present) if you sit on your hands that crisis is going to arise. In the end I expect a lot of those solutions will come from the States. While I may not like your current energy policies I would be the first to admit that America has invested very heavy in its Universities and it is these that are more likely to provide solutions than anything else. The quickest way to do this is to offer Research Scholarships, something that is done already but something that should be greatly accelerated. You dont win a war by throwing in a few more men at the front but throwing in a large complete battalion quite often makes a difference. By the way I am not anti American and I'm also of Scots descent (one of my great ancestors set up Edinburgh University) so as one sheep shaggers descendent to another dont take me too personally. Its also not the 50 million 4 legged sheep I worry about, but the other 4 million (I share this country with), and the other 6 billion (I share this planet with), two legged sheep. The world seems to be full of sheep and pigs. Why the sheep have to be ruled by the pigs I dont know. Bah, I mean bye. B.r., David - Original Message - From: ronald miller sr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union Hey, come on now, please stop the American bashing. We are all in this together although I would say we (Americans) should be leading the world in alternate fuel development. It's really hard for us little guys to fight the big oil companies and the government. The govenment did send me an application form for an alternate fuel plant(still)and it was only one form. As a Scottish American the only suggestion I could give on the sheep situation is to plug them with a catylitic converter (Just kidding) I really appreciate hearing views from other countries and I know a lot of people don't like us yanks but for the most part we are like any other bloaks around the world. Best regards, Ron Miller - Original Message - From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 6:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union Chuck, You are not an American by any chance are you? As a member of a country with less than 5% of the worlds population (280 million divided into 6 billion = 4.67% by my reckoning) using 60% of the worlds energy maybe you should be listened to and your viewpoint as the biggest energy user have dominance. Maybe you are right and its a con job but without people argueing and discussing it no resolution or solutions is/are ever going to evolve and resolve the problem if it exists. Personally I think its man using all these vehicles and man cutting down all the trees in the world. Or maybe its all these farting sheep down here in NZ. After all there is a big hole down here in the ozone layer near Antartica and if NZ is the closest to it there has to be a reason for it so maybe this sheep idea is not so stupid. Anyway as one of the people who live here and who is obviously one of the main contributors who am I to throw stones? B.r
RE: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union
Atmospheric ozone over Antarctica was not measured prior to 68 (or 58. They say your memory is the second thing to go)Gordon Dobson set up the monitoring station at McMurdo. Note that atmospheric ozone is measured in Dobsons. It is believed the hole is an annual phenomena and has always been there unless you are a UN scientist and are arguing for the cessation of private property rights and we all must join to overcome problems that transcend boundaries. That is why these phenomena are called political science as they are more political than science. Kirk But I don't think the peasants of southern Chile get into a lot of sunbathing these days. There are reports their skin cancer rates are way up. Could be more to it, or less - I need more info on it, got to do some digging. I thought the British guys only discovered the Antarctic hole in the mid-late 80s. Are you sure there was a hole in 68? Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union
Hi Kirk We are told the ozone hole is due to atmospheric chlorine, not energy consumption. Man's contribution to the atmospheric chlorine is 1/2 of 1%. (1/200th) Its like saying a robin flying in front of a tornado is the reason you lost your roof. The largest measured ozone hole was in 1968 which is inconsistent with man made causes. The next biggest hole was after the eruption of Pinatubo. Stratospheric chlorine is enormously affected by volcanic eruption. Man's contribution is miniscule in comparison. Not to disagree, but miniscule factors can have unpredictable and potentially enormous consequences in complex systems. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ -Original Message- From: David Reid [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 5:25 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union Chuck, You are not an American by any chance are you? As a member of a country with less than 5% of the worlds population (280 million divided into 6 billion = 4.67% by my reckoning) using 60% of the worlds energy maybe you should be listened to and your viewpoint as the biggest energy user have dominance. Maybe you are right and its a con job but without people argueing and discussing it no resolution or solutions is/are ever going to evolve and resolve the problem if it exists. Personally I think its man using all these vehicles and man cutting down all the trees in the world. Or maybe its all these farting sheep down here in NZ. After all there is a big hole down here in the ozone layer near Antartica and if NZ is the closest to it there has to be a reason for it so maybe this sheep idea is not so stupid. Anyway as one of the people who live here and who is obviously one of the main contributors who am I to throw stones? B.r., David - Original Message - From: Chuck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 7:44 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union This climate change propaganda is a con job. Stop the crap. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union
snip By the way I am not anti American and I'm also of Scots descent (one of my great ancestors set up Edinburgh University) so as one sheep shaggers descendent to another dont take me too personally. Its also not the 50 million 4 legged sheep I worry about, but the other 4 million (I share this country with), and the other 6 billion (I share this planet with), two legged sheep. The world seems to be full of sheep and pigs. Why the sheep have to be ruled by the pigs I dont know. All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others. But Animal Farm was about Stalin's USSR, not humanity at large. Sure, there's plenty of evidence to hand that most people are easily-led sheep and too many are pigs, but I think there's even more evidence, if you want to find it, that mostly they're all too human. Usually that's intended to mean only human, or merely human - fallible, gullible, inept. Greedy. Selfish. Corruptible. I don't agree with that. Ordinary people are capable of extraordinary things, and regularly demonstrate it. I think they're a pretty cool bunch. Bah, I mean bye. What an old grumble-guts! Cheer up! :-) Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union
The 80's was imaging, a UV camera. Prior to that point measurements were made but not an image. Dobson thought his gear was broken as the data seemed unreasonable to him. Later he rationalized why Antarctica behaves that way-- A donut rotor isolates the land during the winter and Mt Erebus pumps HCl into the atmosphere thus zapping O3. Spring sees the donut degrade and atmospheric isolation ends. Sun makes new ozone and so penguins don't need sunglasses. People who don't eat raw vegetables are much more susceptible to skin cancer. So much for modern diet. I had a precancerous growth on my left arm (steering wheel on left side of vehicle so left arm gets sun). A trial run of vegetarian diet (for other reasons) produced the unanticipated result of healing on left arm. Further reading left me with idea nutrition has a lot to do with sun reactions. Kirk -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 1:12 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union Atmospheric ozone over Antarctica was not measured prior to 68 (or 58. They say your memory is the second thing to go)Gordon Dobson set up the monitoring station at McMurdo. Note that atmospheric ozone is measured in Dobsons. It is believed the hole is an annual phenomena and has always been there unless you are a UN scientist and are arguing for the cessation of private property rights and we all must join to overcome problems that transcend boundaries. That is why these phenomena are called political science as they are more political than science. Kirk But I don't think the peasants of southern Chile get into a lot of sunbathing these days. There are reports their skin cancer rates are way up. Could be more to it, or less - I need more info on it, got to do some digging. I thought the British guys only discovered the Antarctic hole in the mid-late 80s. Are you sure there was a hole in 68? Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union
hmm... wasn't it Congress, and not GW, that turned down Kyoto? Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: Ray Foulk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Millennium Debate [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 4:04 PM Subject: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union Dear All, A date for your diaries: 8.00pm, Wednesday 13th June 2001 MAKI MANDELA AT THE OXFORD UNION proposing the motion: THIS HOUSE CONDEMNS AMERICA'S NEGLECT OF CLIMATE CHANGE (as justice and efficacy demand that rich countries cut emissions before the Developing World joins in) Dr Mandela (Executive Director, Development Bank of South Africa and daughter of Nelson Mandela) is proposing the motion and will be supported by: Zac Goldsmith (editor, The Ecologist) She will be opposed by: Professor Philip Stott (Professor of Biogeography, University of London) and David Victor (Council on Relations, New York, USA). Attached is a press release and poster (you may be able to print the attached poster) for the Climate Change Debate the Millennium Debate is co-organising with Refocus Renewable Energy Magazine (Elsevier Publishers) at the Oxford Union on Wednesday June 13th at 8.00pm. We have arranged for this important event to be open to the public, so please spread the word via email to potentially interested parties. Posters are available to be put up, and tickets are available to sell. Tickets are £3.00 (£1.50 concessions) and you can take a batch of 5, 10, 20 tickets or more, depending on how many environmentally friendly friends and contacts you have. Tickets are available through the Millennium Debate or the designated ticket outlets in Oxford (details below). The Union holds 800 and we want to fill the place, so any ticket sales you can manage will help. Factions in the US do take note of Oxford Union debate results. Here's to a topical, heated debate - and to making this a lively, memorable event - hope to see you there! Many thanks Claire Palmer The MilIlennium Environment Debate 46 Nelson Street Oxford OX2 6BE T: +44 (0) 1865 552463 F: +44 (0) 1865 310773 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.millennium-debate.org Posters and tickets can be delivered, or are available at: The Millennium Debate, 46 Nelson Street, Jericho (used to be a pub, junction of Wellington St and Nelson St) 01865 552463 Mobile: 07775 698 549 Tickets available at : Uhuru Wholefoods, 48 Cowley Road Magic Cafe, 108 Magdalene Rd, East Oxford (off Iffley Road) Alpha Organic Cafe, 89 Oxford Covered Market (Market St entrance - 1st cafe on the right) 46 Nelson Street (junction of Wellington Street) Jericho Oxford --- Pre-press release EMBARGO TILL: 11am, 22 May 2001 Ms MANDELA TO LEAD CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE AT THE OXFORD UNION WEDNESDAY JUNE 13th 8.00pm. -- Why should America be responsible for cleaning up the world's air? George W Bush The daughter of the former South African president, Nelson Mandela, is to take on the new Bush administration at the Oxford Union on 13 June, by proposing that: This house Condemns America's Neglect of Climate Change (as justice and efficacy demand that rich countries cut emissions before the developing world joins in). In a joint initiative, Oxford based charity, The Millennium Debate and Elsevier Publisher's REFOCUS magazine (Renewable Energy Focus) are co-organising the public debate at the Oxford Union. They have made a special arrangement for non-members to attend on this occasion. The debate centres around US President George W. Bush's recent decision to withdraw from the Kyoto accord saying that Kyoto is unfair and exempts 80% of the world, including population centres like China and India, from compliance. The US stance, coming from a country with 5% of the world's population that emits over 25% of the total world greenhouse gas emissions, has lead to a world wide uproar, with some critics even proposing an all out trade war on the United States. Dr Maki Mandela insists that the issue is one that will affect the Developing World more than American businessmen. The US Embassy in London declined to put forward a speaker, though a representative from the Embassy will be in attendance. Major oil companies, Exon and Texaco have also declined to speak in the debate. Speakers for the motion: Dr Maki Mandela, Executive Director of the Development Bank of Southern Africa (and daughter of Nelson Mandela); Zac Goldsmith, Editor, The Ecologist Speakers against the motion: Philip Stott, Professor of Biogeography, University of London; and David G. Victor, Council on
