Re: [biofuel] What's the difference
It turns out that I have located a source for good quantities of used hydrogenated vegetable oil. Before I enter into any negotiations I wonder whether this type of oil will prove difficult to convert into biodiesal. Any thoughts on this? .. Mike, Go for it!!! Your final biodiesel product will have a greater energy value than a biodiesel derived from the same oil before it was hydrogenated. Don't offer them money outright, if you can avoid it, especially if they are presently paying to have it removed. If you can afford it, tell 'em you'll remove it for free. That should make you their friend for life. Todd Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] What's the difference
Todd, Thats the whole thing. Nobody wants to remove it. In this country, used cooking oil is maybe reprocessed and sold to the lower income groups. ( I know, there should be a law ) Anyway, these guys won't accept used hydrogenated oil -- too foreign to them. I feel like I'm in the butter!! Now, just to setup a reliable production. Mike -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 6:49 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] What's the difference It turns out that I have located a source for good quantities of used hydrogenated vegetable oil. Before I enter into any negotiations I wonder whether this type of oil will prove difficult to convert into biodiesal. Any thoughts on this? .. Mike, Go for it!!! Your final biodiesel product will have a greater energy value than a biodiesel derived from the same oil before it was hydrogenated. Don't offer them money outright, if you can avoid it, especially if they are presently paying to have it removed. If you can afford it, tell 'em you'll remove it for free. That should make you their friend for life. Todd Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the difference
Also conveniently forgotten is the fact that, when D2 changed to ultra low sulphur diesel, there was a power loss of 5%. Wonder why? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the difference
Nice preemptive strike. Kudos. ;-) Ed B. . Mike, That is, by and large correct. There is a slight horsepower reduction when running biodiesel neat. Some would jump on this factoid like a cat on a rat, screaming I told you so, and other mindless declarations that berate bio-d. When they do this, they immediately neglect such minor details as enormously cleaner air, Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the difference
Thank you, Ed, but I was actually wondering why the whole world had overlooked the fact that there was a reduction in mpg with ULSD, Perhaps it was because nobody felt threatened by a better substitute? Methink the lady doth protest too much! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the difference
Friction? ;-) Ed B. From: Biofuels [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 14:55:01 +0100 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] What's the difference Also conveniently forgotten is the fact that, when D2 changed to ultra low sulphur diesel, there was a power loss of 5%. Wonder why? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] What's the difference
Dear Todd, Thanks for your information. Hydrogenation sounds interesting but first things first. I live next to a fishing harbour which probably consumes a few million liters of diesal monthly. If I want to have an impact on this I need to be able to tell people straight what they gonna get or not. It's also an important consideration for costing purposes. For those who want to advantage of this, well, biodiesal is just good business. Mike -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 3:37 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] What's the difference Is my thinking correct?: If the energy content of most biodiesals is between 35 and 40 Mj/kg (Terry 4/27) Lowest heat of combustion is canola methyl ester at 39.9 Mj/kg Highest is rape at 40.54 Mj/kg The rest are in between D2 is 45.42 Mj/kg and #2Diesal is 45 mj/kg then holding all other factors constant one should get about a 10% lower performance than #2D. This would mean that a liter of biodiesal is not equivalent to a liter of Petrodiesal, yah? . Mike, That is, by and large correct. There is a slight horsepower reduction when running biodiesel neat. Some would jump on this factoid like a cat on a rat, screaming I told you so, and other mindless declarations that berate bio-d. When they do this, they immediately neglect such minor details as enormously cleaner air, greatly reduced carcinogenics in both emissions and manufacture (read reduced medical costs and human suffering), fuel renewability, enormously increased biodegradability, conservation of petroleum feedstock for future generations, strengthening the economic outlook of family farms and a herd of other side benefits. My perspective is that such individuals have either not thought the equation out fully or are highly selfish. If they keep their britches on for a decade while this industry gets off the ground, they will probably see biodiesel energy content increase, if through nothing else hydrogenatiion. This process breaks down double bonds and adds hydrogen to the mix, increasing energy value. A bit of an industrial process, that. Refer to ASTM standardization for data on cloudpoint, lubricity and coking. No one has really done much on the latter. Todd Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the difference
Mike, Check out http://www.cytoculture.com/Biodiesel%20Handbook.htm#Lower%20Hydrocarbon%20Em issions Mariners would appreciate this text. Also, start checking within a 40 mile radius of your port and determine how many fast food outlets you have, everything from hamburger joints to donut shops to chicken outlets. If you can count more than 30, you can feasibly build a biodiesel plant of 1,500 gallon per batch or day capacity and release the fuel for under $1.10 a gallon US (pre-tax), still maintaining a $0.50 a gallon profit and an eight month payback on the original debt. Check your feedstock sources and get back to me. Todd Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] What's the difference
Dear Todd, Excellent reference!!! It addresses many of the topics to satisfy my curiosity, etc... Here is Cape Town, we only have about 1000 fish and chip shops in the area. A couple of dozen fish processing plants and much more. Fish oil? I have completed my first biodiesal setup and tested. All went very well. I mixed up to 80% on a diesal pump and ran it for five hours without even skipping a pistons beat. It was nice to watch the changeover from petrodiesal to biodiesal. The smoke cleared and the smell changed. All in a moment. Surprised, though, at how much care one has to take to do a proper and reliable job. My advise to anyone is to keep instruments clean and don't hurry!!! My next step is to secure proper and reliable sources for the input material as well as build a small production (1000 liters/day). I still need to obtain proper batch testing methods. I am also surrounded by ocean and wonder if kelp could be used.??? Thanks for your help. Mike -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 9:12 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] What's the difference Mike, Check out http://www.cytoculture.com/Biodiesel%20Handbook.htm#Lower%20Hydrocarbon%20Em issions Mariners would appreciate this text. Also, start checking within a 40 mile radius of your port and determine how many fast food outlets you have, everything from hamburger joints to donut shops to chicken outlets. If you can count more than 30, you can feasibly build a biodiesel plant of 1,500 gallon per batch or day capacity and release the fuel for under $1.10 a gallon US (pre-tax), still maintaining a $0.50 a gallon profit and an eight month payback on the original debt. Check your feedstock sources and get back to me. Todd Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the difference
Mike, So, it doesn't really make a difference which veggy oil one uses. The net result will be, basically, the same. Pretty much. Some are perhaps slightly better than others. Is there a direct correlation (linear) between energy content and performance? Yup. It's the energy content, combined with compression, which defines the energy output. Less energy initially will result in less output, due to less explosive combustion. Please define 'coking potential' and ' cloud point' and another term I've come across is' lubricity'. Are these technical details or are they significant enough to effect performance or tear and wear? Coking potential in layman's terms is carbon buildup. Some fuels coke worse than others. Cloud point is the temperature where the fuel begins to crystalize or solidify. It literally turns cloudy and starts to cause problems with fuel flow. Line freeze follows thereafter. Lubricity is the lubricative quality of a fuel, measured in quantifiable units. Todd Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] What's the difference
Todd, Is my thinking correct?: If the energy content of most biodiesals is between 35 and 40 Mj/kg (Terry 4/27) Lowest heat of combustion is canola methyl ester at 39.9 Mj/kg Highest is rape at 40.54 Mj/kg The rest are in between D2 is 45.42 Mj/kg and #2Diesal is 45 mj/kg then holding all other factors constant one should get about a 10% lower performance than #2D. This would mean that a liter of biodiesal is not equivalent to a liter of Petrodiesal, yah? Can you refer me to any more info on the testing and standards for coking,cloud point and lubricity? Much appreciated. Mike -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 7:31 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] What's the difference Mike, So, it doesn't really make a difference which veggy oil one uses. The net result will be, basically, the same. Pretty much. Some are perhaps slightly better than others. Is there a direct correlation (linear) between energy content and performance? Yup. It's the energy content, combined with compression, which defines the energy output. Less energy initially will result in less output, due to less explosive combustion. Please define 'coking potential' and ' cloud point' and another term I've come across is' lubricity'. Are these technical details or are they significant enough to effect performance or tear and wear? Coking potential in layman's terms is carbon buildup. Some fuels coke worse than others. Cloud point is the temperature where the fuel begins to crystalize or solidify. It literally turns cloudy and starts to cause problems with fuel flow. Line freeze follows thereafter. Lubricity is the lubricative quality of a fuel, measured in quantifiable units. Todd Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the difference
The difference in calorific value of biodiesel of 10% is a theoretical one - the biodiesel contains around 11% oxygen in the molecular content. However, this oxygen causes the fuel to react quicker and better than petrodiesel, with the result that the energy produced is relatively greater. This accounts for the higher cetane number. The most accurate figure I have come up with is that, in real terms, the energy output of biodiesel in an internal combustion engine is only 5% less than that of petrodiesel. Greater lubricity helps, as well. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the difference
Is my thinking correct?: If the energy content of most biodiesals is between 35 and 40 Mj/kg (Terry 4/27) Lowest heat of combustion is canola methyl ester at 39.9 Mj/kg Highest is rape at 40.54 Mj/kg The rest are in between D2 is 45.42 Mj/kg and #2Diesal is 45 mj/kg then holding all other factors constant one should get about a 10% lower performance than #2D. This would mean that a liter of biodiesal is not equivalent to a liter of Petrodiesal, yah? . Mike, That is, by and large correct. There is a slight horsepower reduction when running biodiesel neat. Some would jump on this factoid like a cat on a rat, screaming I told you so, and other mindless declarations that berate bio-d. When they do this, they immediately neglect such minor details as enormously cleaner air, greatly reduced carcinogenics in both emissions and manufacture (read reduced medical costs and human suffering), fuel renewability, enormously increased biodegradability, conservation of petroleum feedstock for future generations, strengthening the economic outlook of family farms and a herd of other side benefits. My perspective is that such individuals have either not thought the equation out fully or are highly selfish. If they keep their britches on for a decade while this industry gets off the ground, they will probably see biodiesel energy content increase, if through nothing else hydrogenatiion. This process breaks down double bonds and adds hydrogen to the mix, increasing energy value. A bit of an industrial process, that. Refer to ASTM standardization for data on cloudpoint, lubricity and coking. No one has really done much on the latter. Todd Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] What's the difference
Dear Todd, Thanks for your comprehensive response. I almost understand you!! So, it doesn't really make a difference which veggy oil one uses. The net result will be, basically, the same. Is there a direct correlation (linear) between energy content and performance? Please define 'coking potential' and ' cloud point' and another term I've come across is' lubricity'. Are these technical details or are they significant enough to effect performance or tear and wear? Mike -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 2:00 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] What's the difference Is there any difference in energy content between, for instance, one liter of sunflower biodiesal and one liter of palm-oil biodiesal? In other words, is there a better performance in km/liter for the better oil? . Mike, Technically, the answer is yes. Examine the following: Each oil is going to have a different fatty acid profile makeup - different amounts of multiple types of constituent oils such as lanoleic, linoleic, etc. As each oil has a different makeup of varying components, the post transesterification results will have some differences from oil to oil as well. Oils have differing original heat values and the final biodiesels are subject to similar variations. Your question or implication that some oils may form better biodiesels relative to final energy content is logical and accurate. The $64 million dollar question, however, is actually a number of primary questions. Secondary and tertiary questions can be omitted for the moment. The biggies are: 1) What is the ranking of each biodiesel from highest energy value to lowest, per gallon or liter? 2) What is the yield of biodiesel from each oil from highest yield to lowest, per gallon or liter? 3) What is the coking potential of each biodiesel, based upon static tests over time? 4) What is the cloud point of each oil's biodiesel from highest temp to lowest? 5) What variances occur in answers to the above three questions when using differing alcohols to form the esters, such as methyl, ethyl, iso-propyl, iso-butyl, etc? While there are some studies that try to corner the elusive answer to your question, absolutely no one to date, at least relative to general knowledge, has conducted an experiment of appropriate breadth, depth and duration to accurately answer the question What is the best oil from which to manufacture biodiesel? There are a lot of oils, a lot of alcohols, several different processes and a somewhat large cost factor incurred to analyze each variable accurately. Until such a time as these measures are taken, you'll be relatively safe to continue with mainstays such as rapeseed, soy, used veg and animal oils, palm or any others that have logged hundreds of thousands of miles and been documented. Going beyond that, you'll probably need a reasonably large grant in order to determine the unequivocal answer. Hope this answers your question... :-) Todd Swearingen Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the difference
Mike, Please dont repeat questions unless you want answers. No seriously was suprised no-one picked up on this with your last attempt and attempted to give you an answer. I suspect Aleks is the right guy. I definitely suspect there would be a correlation between the quality of the oil from one plant to another and the conversion ratio and that this posibly carries over into the biod produced. I suspect that this comes down to the lipid chain length and the efficiency of conversion. At the end of the day I suppose it comes down to the BTUs contained in each individual biod by volume. Afraid thats as far as I can venture and we will have to wait for more knowledgeable minds and those with far more experience to provide the answers. B.r., David - Original Message - From: Mike Brownstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 6:55 AM Subject: [biofuel] What's the difference Is there any difference in energy content between, for instance, one liter of sunflower biodiesal and one liter of palm-oil biodiesal? In other words, is there a better performance in km/liter for the better oil? Mike Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the difference
To all intents and purposes - none Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the difference
Is there any difference in energy content between, for instance, one liter of sunflower biodiesal and one liter of palm-oil biodiesal? In other words, is there a better performance in km/liter for the better oil? . Mike, Technically, the answer is yes. Examine the following: Each oil is going to have a different fatty acid profile makeup - different amounts of multiple types of constituent oils such as lanoleic, linoleic, etc. As each oil has a different makeup of varying components, the post transesterification results will have some differences from oil to oil as well. Oils have differing original heat values and the final biodiesels are subject to similar variations. Your question or implication that some oils may form better biodiesels relative to final energy content is logical and accurate. The $64 million dollar question, however, is actually a number of primary questions. Secondary and tertiary questions can be omitted for the moment. The biggies are: 1) What is the ranking of each biodiesel from highest energy value to lowest, per gallon or liter? 2) What is the yield of biodiesel from each oil from highest yield to lowest, per gallon or liter? 3) What is the coking potential of each biodiesel, based upon static tests over time? 4) What is the cloud point of each oil's biodiesel from highest temp to lowest? 5) What variances occur in answers to the above three questions when using differing alcohols to form the esters, such as methyl, ethyl, iso-propyl, iso-butyl, etc? While there are some studies that try to corner the elusive answer to your question, absolutely no one to date, at least relative to general knowledge, has conducted an experiment of appropriate breadth, depth and duration to accurately answer the question What is the best oil from which to manufacture biodiesel? There are a lot of oils, a lot of alcohols, several different processes and a somewhat large cost factor incurred to analyze each variable accurately. Until such a time as these measures are taken, you'll be relatively safe to continue with mainstays such as rapeseed, soy, used veg and animal oils, palm or any others that have logged hundreds of thousands of miles and been documented. Going beyond that, you'll probably need a reasonably large grant in order to determine the unequivocal answer. Hope this answers your question... :-) Todd Swearingen Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the difference
OK - technically, yes. Lowest heat of combustion is canola methyl ester at 39.9 Mj/kg Highest is rape at 40.54 Mj/kg The rest are in between D2 is 45.42 Mj/kg I reiterate - to all intents and purposes - no Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
