Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
I was browsing thru some of the old biofuel posts and saw this one and its thread. Sorry but I couldn't resist putting in my own jaded comments. The proper resolution of the problems is to do what Bolivia did. Get a loan from the IMF to build a pipeline to the village. The IMF will require that the well no longer be communal but should be sold to a big water company like Bechtel. Bechtel will raise the price of water so high that those people on the lower end of the economic strata will not be able to afford it. Under pressure from lobbyists or from outright bribery the village will pass a law making it illegal to collect rainwater. What's better socialism or capitalism? - Original Message From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Mon, September 18, 2006 2:16:21 PM Subject: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please. Spent a lot of hours behind the wheel these last few weeks. Driving from the 'services' economy of the greater mid-atlantic Washington DC USA region, through rural WV, and Pa, up through industrialized and agricultural southern Canada, down through agricultural and tourist economy of northern Michigan/UP... A model came to mind. A Very Simple Economic Model. - Albert, the blacksmith. Earns the equiv of $24,000 US a year plying his trade. Beverly, the mortgage banker. Earns the equiv of $240,000 US a year, plying her trade. Charles, the surgeon, Earns the equiv of $2.400,000 US a year plying his trade Emily, the CEO, Earns the equiv of $24,000,000 US a year plying her trade. In this community, folks work 8 hours a day to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community, folks work 5 days a week to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community, folks work 48 weeks a year to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community where Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily live, it takes 1 hour to go the communal well, and draw the water needed for the day, and haul it back to their respective domiciles. --- Q1. What is an hours labour worth in this community? Q2. Should the community consider bringing in cheap labour to haul their water? Q3, Should the community levee a tax and use the tax to pay the cheap labour to haul the water? Q3.1 If so, at what rate should Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily be taxed? Discussion. What is this hour devoted to drawing water worth? Since there are 24 hours in the day, and all the hours are spoken for, doing the regular stuff, like raising kids, cleaning house, working, fiddling about, and occasionally watching NFL or world cup rallye, the only reason to do offload the hauling of water duty would be to gain an extra hour of free time. So, to Albert, an hour of free time is essentially worth $1000 over a year. To Beverly, $10,000, to Charles $100,000 and to Emily $1,000,000. Discussion How does the Nash Equilibrium bear on this scenario? - Somewhere, I'm sure this Very Simple Model is already addressed. If someone could point me to a paper, I'd greatly appreciate it. Comments please. thanks. ___ Biofuel mailing list href=mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org;Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
Joe Street wrote: u well, 1 hr at $12.50/hr times 5 days a week times 48 weeks comes to $3000.00 unless my calulator is busted...it is a microsoft thingie after all. Assuming he dehydrates over the weekend and Christmas of course. Joe Ahh sheesh. Here, I tried to build a Very Simple Model. Key point, Very Simple. There are 24 hours in a day, everyone earns on a factor of 24, the unit under debate is one hour. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
Hey Mike, thanks for playing. Mike Weaver wrote: Q1. What is an hours labour worth in this community? 1 hour of a person's time. You're confusing the community obligations with work worth Hardly. Hauling water isn't a community obligation, it's a personal obligation. Keep the model simple. The only time that is up for modification is work time. In this Very Simple Model, if one person, (Keep it simple) doesn't haul water, they drop dead or something. If one is going to make 2 water hauls, one gives up an hour of worktime. Therefore an extra water haul is one less work hour. Come on, it's a simple model. FWIW - labor to cut grass is about 15.00 hour here in Arlington VA. Q2. Should the community consider bringing in cheap labour to haul their water? Depends. Does communal work bind the community together? It's not communal work. The key point being, some folks *might* be willing to trade some of their dollars in exchange for gaining a free hour to do something else, like Tivo survivor or something. Q3, Should the community levee a tax and use the tax to pay the cheap labour to haul the water? Towards what end? Umm, to gain an hour of free time. Q3.1 If so, at what rate should Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily be taxed? By whom? By Dinsdale the Hedgehog. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
Here, I tried to build a Very Simple Model. Key point, Very Simple. There are 24 hours in a day, everyone earns on a factor of 24, the unit under debate is one hour. Paid by whom? They are paid even for sleeping? - Original Message - From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please. Joe Street wrote: u well, 1 hr at $12.50/hr times 5 days a week times 48 weeks comes to $3000.00 unless my calulator is busted...it is a microsoft thingie after all. Assuming he dehydrates over the weekend and Christmas of course. Joe Ahh sheesh. Here, I tried to build a Very Simple Model. Key point, Very Simple. There are 24 hours in a day, everyone earns on a factor of 24, the unit under debate is one hour. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
On Monday, September 18, 2006 1:16 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:16:21 -0400 From: Chip Mefford To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please. Spent a lot of hours behind the wheel these last few weeks. Driving from the 'services' economy of the greater mid-atlantic Washington DC USA region, through rural WV, and Pa, up through industrialized and agricultural southern Canada, down through agricultural and tourist economy of northern Michigan/UP... A model came to mind. A Very Simple Economic Model. - Albert, the blacksmith. Earns the equiv of $24,000 US a year plying his trade. Beverly, the mortgage banker. Earns the equiv of $240,000 US a year, plying her trade. Charles, the surgeon, Earns the equiv of $2.400,000 US a year plying his trade Emily, the CEO, Earns the equiv of $24,000,000 US a year plying her trade. In this community, folks work 8 hours a day to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community, folks work 5 days a week to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community, folks work 48 weeks a year to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community where Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily live, it takes 1 hour to go the communal well, and draw the water needed for the day, and haul it back to their respective domiciles. --- Q1. What is an hours labour worth in this community? The worth of the water hour is the same to all. While others may be able to pay someone else to fetch the water, it still takes an hour and it still provides the same benefit. Q2. Should the community consider bringing in cheap labour to haul their water? No, bringing in a water hauler will not change the structure only increase the cost (even if it is cheap labor). Q3, Should the community levee a tax and use the tax to pay the cheap labour to haul the water? Same as above, just makes the cost distributed through a political structure. Q3.1 If so, at what rate should Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily be taxed? Emily would call for a flat tax, citing that she uses the same amount of water as everyone else. The others would argue a progressive tax. Neither of which is ideal. Discussion. The simple analysis, in my opinion, would not look at the water but look at the disparate nature of the economic structure... If they all earned the same or if all but one earned the same the water equation would not change. Thus, the water structure isn't a problem, it diverts attention from the problem. What is this hour devoted to drawing water worth? Since there are 24 hours in the day, and all the hours are spoken for, doing the regular stuff, like raising kids, cleaning house, working, fiddling about, and occasionally watching NFL or world cup rallye, the only reason to do offload the hauling of water duty would be to gain an extra hour of free time. So, to Albert, an hour of free time is essentially worth $1000 over a year. To Beverly, $10,000, to Charles $100,000 and to Emily $1,000,000. Discussion How does the Nash Equilibrium bear on this scenario? - Somewhere, I'm sure this Very Simple Model is already addressed. If someone could point me to a paper, I'd greatly appreciate it. Comments please. thanks. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
Chip; Ok big deal. I didn't mean to be anal about the numbers, and now I realize the accuracy of the numbers is not really important to the discussion. The relative proportions of the earnings are still the same and the big questions are still unanswered and I think it will be impossible to answer them unless we had a common perspective on what it means to be a member of the society and how that society is expected to work. What is it about Emily that makes her worth 24 megabucks a year? Or should I be asking, what is it about the other members of her society that makes them believe they should support her making that much by being part of the machine which is earning that for her? Especially if that machine is unsustainable. For sure there are people of different levels of capability in terms of what they can offer to the rest of the society, take the surgeon for example. We are so indoctrinated into the idea that we should be compensated in proportion to what our capabilities are, that we cannot see it any other way in our society so these questions seem real. Is it realistic to look at it from a perspective of time equals money? Does this mean that if Emily spends 3.6 seconds with the bucket she has made the same contribution to her community as Albert spending a full hour with it? It really depends on what Emily can be up to during that time which you have valued 1000 times more. I wouldn't want to be lying somewhere with a severed artery waiting 36 seconds for Charlie to come back from his water duties. That could mean my life. How we assign value to things is pivotal to what our society is and how it works, and what we expect when we live in it. Clearly currency has solved some of the problems that plagued a barter type system but valuing everything in terms of dollar doesn't work very well either IMHO. It's hard to imagine reorganizing on some other principle at this stage though. I don't know that alternatives which have worked well for small isolated societies (I don't want to use the word primitive) could work on a larger scale but certainly our 'first' world view could do with a little maturing. So now have a look at Q1 -Q3.1 and notice that the questions are framed within this paradigm of value which is already biased toward a subset of answers and precludes other ideas which the paradigm does not even allow. Sorry I didn't answer any of them but I'm not sure they are the right questions to be asking. I'm not really sure that a person is entitled to more than they need but ask a bunch of people to define need. LOL. Pyrimidal type structures require a lot of crap at the bottom to serve as a foundation for the soaring hights of the pinnacle. It sucks if you ask me. Good luck convincing the average joe to soar just for the joy of soaring or do the dishes just for the dishes. We are conditioned and indoctrinated to see the world through gain coloured glasses. It suits our evil human nature. That's why we're all sinners don't you know. ROFL. I do believe it can be different but what it will take to bring about the change remains to be seen. I don't think you will solve it by reorganizing the money. Joe Chip Mefford wrote: Joe Street wrote: u well, 1 hr at $12.50/hr times 5 days a week times 48 weeks comes to $3000.00 unless my calulator is busted...it is a microsoft thingie after all. Assuming he dehydrates over the weekend and Christmas of course. Joe Ahh sheesh. Here, I tried to build a Very Simple Model. Key point, Very Simple. There are 24 hours in a day, everyone earns on a factor of 24, the unit under debate is one hour. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
Joe Street wrote: Chip; Ok big deal. I didn't mean to be anal about the numbers, and now I realize the accuracy of the numbers is not really important to the discussion. BIG SNIP . I don't think you will solve it by reorganizing the money. Joe Excellent! Now *THATS* what I call a comment! Thanks for the input. Some of my thoughts on this Very Simple Model. One thought, everyone's time is worth the same. Albert values his life just as much as Emily, as do Beverly and Charles. An hour has no intrinsic value, it's just how they spend their days. Before Enlightenment; Chop wood, Carry water. After Enlightenment; Chop wood, Carry water. Another thought, everyone's time is valued very differently, across our powers of 10 monetary reward for services rendered. Carrying water is a big waste of otherwise productive time. Should bring in cheap labour to do the job. A flat tax is called for. Albert chafes, I can carry my own weight (water), and this tax is too much on my quite limited financial resources. Emily is quite content. A scheduled tax is called for. Emily chafes, Albert only has to pay X, so I should only have to pay X. After all, an hour is an hour is an hour Never mind that Emily's billable hours scale at one thousand times what Albert's are. In one regard, Emily receives a benefit equal to one thousand times the benefit that Albert receives. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
Do all households use the same amount of water? If not, what limits are placed on how much water a household can use in a day? - Original Message - From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please. DHAJOGLO wrote: On Monday, September 18, 2006 1:16 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:16:21 -0400 From: Chip Mefford To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please. Spent a lot of hours behind the wheel these last few weeks. SNIP SNIP SNIP Q1. What is an hours labour worth in this community? The worth of the water hour is the same to all. While others may be able to pay someone else to fetch the water, it still takes an hour and it still provides the same benefit. Good point. Thanks Q2. Should the community consider bringing in cheap labour to haul their water? No, bringing in a water hauler will not change the structure only increase the cost (even if it is cheap labor). Nice. I like it. I nominate you as my representative! Q3, Should the community levee a tax and use the tax to pay the cheap labour to haul the water? Same as above, just makes the cost distributed through a political structure. Q3.1 If so, at what rate should Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily be taxed? Emily would call for a flat tax, citing that she uses the same amount of water as everyone else. The others would argue a progressive tax. Neither of which is ideal. Yeah, I should actually sit down and try to plug Nash into this. Thanks for playing! good comments! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
DHAJOGLO wrote: On Monday, September 18, 2006 1:16 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:16:21 -0400 From: Chip Mefford To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please. Spent a lot of hours behind the wheel these last few weeks. SNIP SNIP SNIP Q1. What is an hours labour worth in this community? The worth of the water hour is the same to all. While others may be able to pay someone else to fetch the water, it still takes an hour and it still provides the same benefit. Good point. Thanks Q2. Should the community consider bringing in cheap labour to haul their water? No, bringing in a water hauler will not change the structure only increase the cost (even if it is cheap labor). Nice. I like it. I nominate you as my representative! Q3, Should the community levee a tax and use the tax to pay the cheap labour to haul the water? Same as above, just makes the cost distributed through a political structure. Q3.1 If so, at what rate should Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily be taxed? Emily would call for a flat tax, citing that she uses the same amount of water as everyone else. The others would argue a progressive tax. Neither of which is ideal. Yeah, I should actually sit down and try to plug Nash into this. Thanks for playing! good comments! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
Hey Chip yer off by a factor of three there aren't you? Joe PS Emily makes too much! I think she's a witch. BURN HER! Chip Mefford wrote: snip Albert, the blacksmith. Earns the equiv of $24,000 US a year plying his trade. In this community, folks work 8 hours a day to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community, folks work 5 days a week to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community, folks work 48 weeks a year to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community where Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily live, it takes 1 hour to go the communal well, and draw the water needed for the day, and haul it back to their respective domiciles. snip snip So, to Albert, an hour of free time is essentially worth $1000 over a year. To Beverly, $10,000, to Charles $100,000 and to Emily $1,000,000. snip snip snip Comments please. thanks. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
Joe Street wrote: Hey Chip yer off by a factor of three there aren't you? Nope. All 24 hours are spoken for. Can't peel an hour from anywhere, and it's work time that is at issue. So, if Albert (the likely candidate, being lowest on the payscale) were to trade an hour of his labour for an extra hour of hauling water for Beverly, he'd be trading $1000 of his time over a year, saving Beverly one hour, or $10,000. Joe PS Emily makes too much! I think she's a witch. BURN HER! Need to check and see if she weighs the same as a duck first, but assuming so, yeah, go for it! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
u well, 1 hr at $12.50/hr times 5 days a week times 48 weeks comes to $3000.00 unless my calulator is busted...it is a microsoft thingie after all. Assuming he dehydrates over the weekend and Christmas of course. Joe Chip Mefford wrote: Joe Street wrote: Hey Chip yer off by a factor of three there aren't you? Nope. All 24 hours are spoken for. Can't peel an hour from anywhere, and it's work time that is at issue. So, if Albert (the likely candidate, being lowest on the payscale) were to trade an hour of his labour for an extra hour of hauling water for Beverly, he'd be trading $1000 of his time over a year, saving Beverly one hour, or $10,000. Joe PS Emily makes too much! I think she's a witch. BURN HER! Need to check and see if she weighs the same as a duck first, but assuming so, yeah, go for it! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
A Very Simple Economic Model. - Albert, the blacksmith. Earns the equiv of $24,000 US a year plying his trade. Beverly, the mortgage banker. Earns the equiv of $240,000 US a year, plying her trade. Charles, the surgeon, Earns the equiv of $2.400,000 US a year plying his trade Emily, the CEO, Earns the equiv of $24,000,000 US a year plying her trade. In this community, folks work 8 hours a day to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community, folks work 5 days a week to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community, folks work 48 weeks a year to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community where Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily live, it takes 1 hour to go the communal well, and draw the water needed for the day, and haul it back to their respective domiciles. --- Q1. What is an hours labour worth in this community? 1 hour of a person's time. You're confusing the community obligations with work worth FWIW - labor to cut grass is about 15.00 hour here in Arlington VA. Q2. Should the community consider bringing in cheap labour to haul their water? Depends. Does communal work bind the community together? Q3, Should the community levee a tax and use the tax to pay the cheap labour to haul the water? Towards what end? Q3.1 If so, at what rate should Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily be taxed? By whom? Discussion. What is this hour devoted to drawing water worth? Since there are 24 hours in the day, and all the hours are spoken for, doing the regular stuff, like raising kids, cleaning house, working, fiddling about, and occasionally watching NFL or world cup rallye, the only reason to do offload the hauling of water duty would be to gain an extra hour of free time. So, to Albert, an hour of free time is essentially worth $1000 over a year. To Beverly, $10,000, to Charles $100,000 and to Emily $1,000,000. Discussion How does the Nash Equilibrium bear on this scenario? - Somewhere, I'm sure this Very Simple Model is already addressed. If someone could point me to a paper, I'd greatly appreciate it. Comments please. thanks. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
A few questions: Are non-wage earner family members able to help haul water? (ie. children, spouses, etc) Does everyone live equally far from the community well? If so, why? What if someone wants to get excercise by getting their own water and not be taxed to have someone else do it for them? Can someone pay another person (perhaps someone from outside the community) to fetch their own water, do lawn maintence, etc? What do the people in the community do for water 2 days a week during their working weeks, and for the other 6 weeks when they are not working? Q1. What is an hours labour worth in this community? A1: I guess it depends on what is being done and by whom. Q2. Should the community consider bringing in cheap labour to haul their water? A2: No. The community has obviously been functioning reasonably well with the current scheme for water collection and use. Q3, Should the community levee a tax and use the tax to pay the cheap labour to haul the water? A3:No. The community doesn't have the available free-time to fill out tax returns. Q3.1 If so, at what rate should Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily be taxed? A3.1: It depends on what the person processing, collecting, and disbursing the funds collected is going to be paid and if anyone has the ability to opt-out and haul their own water. - Original Message - From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 2:16 PM Subject: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please. Spent a lot of hours behind the wheel these last few weeks. Driving from the 'services' economy of the greater mid-atlantic Washington DC USA region, through rural WV, and Pa, up through industrialized and agricultural southern Canada, down through agricultural and tourist economy of northern Michigan/UP... A model came to mind. A Very Simple Economic Model. - Albert, the blacksmith. Earns the equiv of $24,000 US a year plying his trade. Beverly, the mortgage banker. Earns the equiv of $240,000 US a year, plying her trade. Charles, the surgeon, Earns the equiv of $2.400,000 US a year plying his trade Emily, the CEO, Earns the equiv of $24,000,000 US a year plying her trade. In this community, folks work 8 hours a day to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community, folks work 5 days a week to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community, folks work 48 weeks a year to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community where Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily live, it takes 1 hour to go the communal well, and draw the water needed for the day, and haul it back to their respective domiciles. --- Q1. What is an hours labour worth in this community? Q2. Should the community consider bringing in cheap labour to haul their water? Q3, Should the community levee a tax and use the tax to pay the cheap labour to haul the water? Q3.1 If so, at what rate should Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily be taxed? Discussion. What is this hour devoted to drawing water worth? Since there are 24 hours in the day, and all the hours are spoken for, doing the regular stuff, like raising kids, cleaning house, working, fiddling about, and occasionally watching NFL or world cup rallye, the only reason to do offload the hauling of water duty would be to gain an extra hour of free time. So, to Albert, an hour of free time is essentially worth $1000 over a year. To Beverly, $10,000, to Charles $100,000 and to Emily $1,000,000. Discussion How does the Nash Equilibrium bear on this scenario? - Somewhere, I'm sure this Very Simple Model is already addressed. If someone could point me to a paper, I'd greatly appreciate it. Comments please. thanks. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
