Re: [biofuel] journey to forever
People like David Morris and the ILSR, the Carbohydrate Economy Clearinghouse and Sustainable Minnesota do good work with these issues, but people don't want to listen. Carbohydrate Economy Clearinghouse http://www.carbohydrateeconomy.org/ http://www.carbohydrateeconomy.org/ceic/Search2/search.cfm Sustainable Minnesota's Biofuels Resources http://www.me3.org/issues/ethanol These are excellent links of general interest, but I found no specific story dealing with the specific issue of net energy, which is the single biggest sticking point I see going on, perhaps along with one or two others. But I have found some good rebuttal, here, but not yet in any kind of generic story form. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] journey to forever
This is a very interesting page with a lot of work behind it. Hadn't really looked at it before except for a couple of biofuels things. What I've been meaning to say about biofuel and inventions and such: The big obstacle I've run into lately in arguing for biofuels or attempting to do so, is the old ethanol takes more BTU to make than it results in argument. Even dismissing Pimentel's stuff, the more mainstream findings, including a paper I tried to quote at DOE, seem to claim that ethanol requires nearly as much energy to make as is put into it in fuel and such. Now, my view is that energy put in can be sustainably made (such as using biodiesel in farm tractors while farming products which go into making biodiesel) and that as we move forward, biofuels will be made more efficiently so that the net energy argument will be less pertinent, even if it will always be somewhat energy-expensive to farm for fuel. But I've been having a tough time on this one sticking point recently, in discussion, and also I've noticed that it's a big point when Senators and Congressmen reject ethanol, such as Feinstein. They imply it's not sustainable and so therefore should not be regarded as a progressive robust domestic energy resource as we search for such things. Further on into the future, I expect that sustainable methods for making various hydrocarbons and alcohols and I-don't-know-what-all will include ways of taking H2 derived from electrolysis and further processing it say with ambient CO2 to make whatever. So what is important is not the bio-derivation, but the more general goal of bringing these processes under the control of man and leaving behind the non-sustainable process of harvesting nature's previous stored bounty. In both cases, making present biofuel production more sustainable-energy-efficient, and making fuels from other sustainable processes, these could qualify as somewhat world-beating advances in our invention-discussion. They are still up against The Oil Companies' worldwide monopoly on distribution of fuels and limitation of many vehicles to not running on most non-fossil fuels (at present). I'm not sure I'd publish or bother with an innovation I made in making a way to make fuel from thin air or what-have-you. But it would be fun to hang out my shingle and start selling fuel and wait for Exxon-Mobil to come by and shut me down, one way or another. Sort of like the Simpsons famous Tomacco episode where they either want to buy him out or do whatever to him. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] journey to forever
On Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 10:39:30AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The big obstacle I've run into lately in arguing for biofuels or attempting to do so, is the old ethanol takes more BTU to make than it results in argument. Even dismissing Pimentel's stuff, the more mainstream findings, including a paper I tried to quote at DOE, seem to claim that ethanol requires nearly as much energy to make as is put into it in fuel and such. Well, the obvious rebuttal to this is simply: Look at Brazil. And, of course, we seem to have a major problem in the US with both ethanol and biodiesel because of the farmer/welfare lobby, which has created mountains of cheap corn and soybeans, so both those farmers and the know-nothings in government keep pushing biofuels made from them. In reality we know that those are lousy choices for biofuel feedstocks in the first place. Corn based ethanol is viable *only* because of the crop price supports -- but that's totally irrelevant, for one, because until we are able to kill off all that corporate welfare, ethanol will be produced from corn and profitably for someone. Heck, right now corn is the cheapest heating fuel available by a long shot. But all those arguments are simply ridiculous. Why even bother with corn or soybeans? Other than they don't know what else to do with them, I mean. There are a multitude of fantasiccally better crops for both ethanol and biodiesel. Does Brazil grow corn for ethanol? Of course not. Why should we? How about sorghum, sugar beets, or, best of all, cattails? Don't waste your breath arguing for corn/ethanol. The morons/thieves in government, and the welfare parasite farmers could care less about reality, they just want to continue with their disgusting symbiotic relationship. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] journey to forever
The energy efficiency numbers don't make a lot of sense. They make no sense if you apply them to energy provision on an integrated farm, or a cooperative of integrated farms, or to a community associated with such a cooperative or cooperatives. To begin with the fossil-fuel inputs in raising the crop(s) can virtually vanish, and the crop might actually be just a by-product, or indeed crop wastes. No two farms would do it quite the same way, and no farm quite the same way two years running. And the closer you look, and the smaller the localities you choose, the greater become the feedstock options and the efficiencies available. People like David Morris and the ILSR, the Carbohydrate Economy Clearinghouse and Sustainable Minnesota do good work with these issues, but people don't want to listen. Carbohydrate Economy Clearinghouse http://www.carbohydrateeconomy.org/ http://www.carbohydrateeconomy.org/ceic/Search2/search.cfm Sustainable Minnesota's Biofuels Resources http://www.me3.org/issues/ethanol This is a very interesting page with a lot of work behind it. Hadn't really looked at it before except for a couple of biofuels things. I'm glad you like it. What I've been meaning to say about biofuel and inventions and such: The big obstacle I've run into lately in arguing for biofuels or attempting to do so, is the old ethanol takes more BTU to make than it results in argument. Even dismissing Pimentel's stuff, the more mainstream findings, including a paper I tried to quote at DOE, seem to claim that ethanol requires nearly as much energy to make as is put into it in fuel and such. Now, my view is that energy put in can be sustainably made (such as using biodiesel in farm tractors while farming products which go into making biodiesel) and that as we move forward, biofuels will be made more efficiently so that the net energy argument will be less pertinent, even if it will always be somewhat energy-expensive to farm for fuel. But I've been having a tough time on this one sticking point recently, in discussion, and also I've noticed that it's a big point when Senators and Congressmen reject ethanol, such as Feinstein. They imply it's not sustainable and so therefore should not be regarded as a progressive robust domestic energy resource as we search for such things. Further on into the future, I expect that sustainable methods for making various hydrocarbons and alcohols and I-don't-know-what-all will include ways of taking H2 derived from electrolysis and further processing it say with ambient CO2 to make whatever. So what is important is not the bio-derivation, but the more general goal of bringing these processes under the control of man and leaving behind the non-sustainable process of harvesting nature's previous stored bounty. In both cases, making present biofuel production more sustainable-energy-efficient, and making fuels from other sustainable processes, these could qualify as somewhat world-beating advances in our invention-discussion. They are still up against The Oil Companies' worldwide monopoly on distribution of fuels and limitation of many vehicles to not running on most non-fossil fuels (at present). I'm not sure I'd publish or bother with an innovation I made in making a way to make fuel from thin air or what-have-you. But it would be fun to hang out my shingle and start selling fuel and wait for Exxon-Mobil to come by and shut me down, one way or another. Sort of like the Simpsons famous Tomacco episode where they either want to buy him out or do whatever to him. Possible this is now beginning to happen with biofuels in the US. Fuel ethanol is still well under conmtrol, as you pointed out, and maybe the little guy is about to get shoved aside by Big Soy as they move in and take over. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
