Re: Re[2]: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust
murdoch65 wrote: I am very interested in the last question of the series. What would you do if it was your invention? First let me mention that as to the article from which this question sprang, it was written by a fairly wide-eyed person who got a number of things wrong and let his enthusiasm get in the way of good reporting in spots. Steve decided to take him at his word as to the efficiency of burning hydrogen but I disagree with this, as hydrogen fuel cells are making good progress and can be expected to make some more over the next ten or twenty years. Yes, I think that's right, but I do tend to take issue with the enthusiasts who tell me it's right around the corner and will solve all our problems tomorrow, or here right now and I just haven't noticed, because I've been hearing that for the last three decades. If I were to invent such an invention as you describe, I question whether I'd release it to anyone, as it would likely bring me nothing but miserable years in the courts, at best. Patent protection for such a device would be inadequate at best , and as to giving it away, which I would not want to do, but if I did that, I'd expect the world to foul it up somehow, hard to predict how. Hiding such a light under a bushel might also bring you nothing but miserable years as you kept seeing more and more what a gift it could be and how much suffering it might end, but you just went on sitting on it. Do you think you could really do that? I'm sure you'd think of a better way. Courts, sure, and you're dead right about patents. Patents don't mean much these days, unless you're a big corp, and not even then - the big corps spend a lot of time and money fighting each other over patents, But I reckon you're being a little hard on your human brothers and sisters, I don't think we've fouled a lot of things up, pretty good record really, despite generally challenging circumstances of just about every conceivable type. But, brothers and sisters are one matter, but when it comes to our bosses, our betters and overlords and their various gangs, and all our committees, from village hall to Washington, wherever and whenever, yeah, they'd foul it up. Don't give the whole town a bad press just because of a couple of local thugs. Maybe you'd be looking for ways to give it away to ordinary folks, so that ordinary folks could keep hold of it. Hey, you might even get rich doing that, who knows? If you managed to do such a thing for the world I don't think it'd let you starve. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Re[2]: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust
Steve decided to take him at his word as to the efficiency of burning hydrogen but I disagree with this, as hydrogen fuel cells are making good progress and can be expected to make some more over the next ten or twenty years. Yes, I think that's right, but I do tend to take issue with the enthusiasts who tell me it's right around the corner and will solve all our problems tomorrow, or here right now and I just haven't noticed, because I've been hearing that for the last three decades. Yes, I absolutely agree with this statement. Enough is enough with the whole fuel cells are the answer right now thing. We should be told the whole scoop and not just the rosy stuff. For example, the need for expensive precious metals, typically used in catalytic converters, is part of PEM fuel cell schemes, that I understand. This need has been reduced but not eliminated that I understand. Also, very interesting: awhile back I was having this conver. with another guy somewhere else and he claimed that fuel cells were not really that efficient yet without cogen, not even 40 or 50% energy efficient in many cases. My initial reaction was to be upset, but he was right on the mark. All of this talk about energy efficiency beating IC engines for example, but without some cogen, or without a somewhat exotic fuel cell scheme, the efficiency is better but not that much better. Now, don't get me wrong, under some sort of idealized conditions I think they can get up there in the 70 or 80 percent range, depending on the tech, but I'm not sure what percentage of that is cogen (i.e. use of waste heat).1 If I were to invent such an invention as you describe, I question whether I'd release it to anyone, as it would likely bring me nothing but miserable years in the courts, at best. Patent protection for such a device would be inadequate at best , and as to giving it away, which I would not want to do, but if I did that, I'd expect the world to foul it up somehow, hard to predict how. Hiding such a light under a bushel might also bring you nothing but miserable years as you kept seeing more and more what a gift it could be and how much suffering it might end, but you just went on sitting on it. Do you think you could really do that? I'm sure you'd think of a better way. Courts, sure, and you're dead right about patents. Patents don't mean much these days, unless you're a big corp, and not even then - the big corps spend a lot of time and money fighting each other over patents, Just to be clear: I would not spend more than two iotas of my time in courts or on phones with people in courts. It would not, and will not, happen. Life is so goddamn short. Of the dozens of publicly traded companies that I follow, the majority of them are run or owned by folks who have some variant of world-beating energy-converting device, and almost all of those folks have made the trade-off and been seduced into spending the brunt of their lives trying to be businessmen instead of inventors, and trying to do this or that stock-trade consideration or fighting for patent rights to the exclusion of rational productivity in fighting for the marketing of their inventions. In this process it is often clear that the invention is not necessarily single-handedly going to save the world, or it has flaws or it is out-of--its-time-period or whatever. Sometimes the system works the way its supposed to to cut an invention down to size so that it's valuable but the inventor needs to understand it is not the be-all-end-all-to-end-all-troubles thing he obviously convinced some shareholders it was. But this system-working-the-way-it's-supposed-to aspect does not adequately cover the lack of productivity and, yes, happiness, that is induced in these excellent and interesting people who otherwise could offer us so much more. I have said before, and will say again now, the lack of protection of their rights, and the lack of public debate and concern with these particular folks, inventors and specifically those whose general area is energy-related-inventions, is very very striking now that national energy policy has become a matter of national debate, now that we are all very much desirous of solutions to different facets of the energy deficit. It is arguably the most important issue in the collection of energy policy issues... the protection of the rights of those whom we ask to solve the problem... and it is arguably the least talked about and the least likely, therefor, to get solved. I have frankly never really heard it brought up in any forum public or private, by anyone else, with the exception of, say, the response that I'll occassionally get from folks like yourself. I have never heard a single legislator bring up the issue. The response to the Cold Fusion craze was interesting (never mind that the invention was viable): it immediately became a matter of Congressional interest, the Trillion Dollar Value of such a thing was bandied
Re: Re[2]: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust
Hi m65 Thanks for an interesting letter. Interesting and interesting. Steve decided to take him at his word as to the efficiency of burning hydrogen but I disagree with this, as hydrogen fuel cells are making good progress and can be expected to make some more over the next ten or twenty years. Yes, I think that's right, but I do tend to take issue with the enthusiasts who tell me it's right around the corner and will solve all our problems tomorrow, or here right now and I just haven't noticed, because I've been hearing that for the last three decades. Yes, I absolutely agree with this statement. Enough is enough with the whole fuel cells are the answer right now thing. We should be told the whole scoop and not just the rosy stuff. For example, the need for expensive precious metals, typically used in catalytic converters, is part of PEM fuel cell schemes, that I understand. This need has been reduced but not eliminated that I understand. Also, very interesting: awhile back I was having this conver. with another guy somewhere else and he claimed that fuel cells were not really that efficient yet without cogen, not even 40 or 50% energy efficient in many cases. My initial reaction was to be upset, but he was right on the mark. All of this talk about energy efficiency beating IC engines for example, but without some cogen, or without a somewhat exotic fuel cell scheme, the efficiency is better but not that much better. Now, don't get me wrong, under some sort of idealized conditions I think they can get up there in the 70 or 80 percent range, depending on the tech, but I'm not sure what percentage of that is cogen (i.e. use of waste heat).1 I hope this generates some discussion. It's a most promising technology, but yes please, let's get the whole scoop and not just the rosy stuff. We've seen (and are seeing) that old movie before with promising technology that gets developed by all the wrong people for all the wrong reasons and delivers all the wrong promises, and there are hints of that here with fuel cells. What a pity that would be. And worse. If I were to invent such an invention as you describe, I question whether I'd release it to anyone, as it would likely bring me nothing but miserable years in the courts, at best. Patent protection for such a device would be inadequate at best , and as to giving it away, which I would not want to do, but if I did that, I'd expect the world to foul it up somehow, hard to predict how. Hiding such a light under a bushel might also bring you nothing but miserable years as you kept seeing more and more what a gift it could be and how much suffering it might end, but you just went on sitting on it. Do you think you could really do that? I'm sure you'd think of a better way. Courts, sure, and you're dead right about patents. Patents don't mean much these days, unless you're a big corp, and not even then - the big corps spend a lot of time and money fighting each other over patents, Just to be clear: I would not spend more than two iotas of my time in courts or on phones with people in courts. It would not, and will not, happen. Life is so goddamn short. Ah yes, I also learnt that lesson. At first I saw it as a good opportunity ruined for such bad reasons, but the lesson was invaluable, well worth the pain. Of the dozens of publicly traded companies that I follow, the majority of them are run or owned by folks who have some variant of world-beating energy-converting device, and almost all of those folks have made the trade-off and been seduced into spending the brunt of their lives trying to be businessmen instead of inventors, and trying to do this or that stock-trade consideration or fighting for patent rights to the exclusion of rational productivity in fighting for the marketing of their inventions. In this process it is often clear that the invention is not necessarily single-handedly going to save the world, or it has flaws or it is out-of--its-time-period or whatever. Sometimes the system works the way its supposed to to cut an invention down to size so that it's valuable but the inventor needs to understand it is not the be-all-end-all-to-end-all-troubles thing he obviously convinced some shareholders it was. But this system-working-the-way-it's-supposed-to aspect does not adequately cover the lack of productivity and, yes, happiness, that is induced in these excellent and interesting people who otherwise could offer us so much more. No, it's pathetically inadequate. And yes, happiness - I don't think much of the Vincent van Gogh school of thought that suffering is good for creativity, and even if it might be, there's no excuse for imposing it. I have said before, and will say again now, the lack of protection of their rights, and the lack of public debate and concern with these particular folks, inventors and specifically those whose general area is energy-related-inventions, is very
Re[2]: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust
if the creation of such machine is that simple then nobody would succeed to restrain its spread (although there probably would be attempts to do so). further, that would mean the need to re-allocate at least several million people to different businesses as very much of oil and related industries would cease to exist. reallocation of workforce always creates tension, look at the industrial revolution times in the 19th century... further think about those military powerful nations that are very much dependent on oil, like OPEC countries, it is very likely that action politics would gain popularity. in one word i would expect war. I am interested in what the forum truly believes. Please share your vision with me. You can mail me off list if you wish. [EMAIL PROTECTED] My question is this If you devised a machine so simple it could be built in a village workshop and it would provide the energy needs of a home or business what would the existing power structure do. Let's further assume that like cold fusion the thing would run many years without a fuel bill. What would the oil companies do? What would the government do? What would you do? I am honestly interested in your perceptions Kirk Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: Re[2]: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust
Thanks for answering. I had thought it would stop war in the OPEC countries. THat one isn't clear to me. I assumed the worker relocation could for a time be manufacture of the new energy source. My projection was the oil companies would very much like to stop the machine. I am very interested in the last question of the series. What would you do if it was your invention? Thanks, Kirk -Original Message- From: Pepu2 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 5:10 AM To: kirk Subject: Re[2]: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust if the creation of such machine is that simple then nobody would succeed to restrain its spread (although there probably would be attempts to do so). further, that would mean the need to re-allocate at least several million people to different businesses as very much of oil and related industries would cease to exist. reallocation of workforce always creates tension, look at the industrial revolution times in the 19th century... further think about those military powerful nations that are very much dependent on oil, like OPEC countries, it is very likely that action politics would gain popularity. in one word i would expect war. I am interested in what the forum truly believes. Please share your vision with me. You can mail me off list if you wish. [EMAIL PROTECTED] My question is this If you devised a machine so simple it could be built in a village workshop and it would provide the energy needs of a home or business what would the existing power structure do. Let's further assume that like cold fusion the thing would run many years without a fuel bill. What would the oil companies do? What would the government do? What would you do? I am honestly interested in your perceptions Kirk --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 4/17/2002 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: Re[2]: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust
Thanks for answering. I had thought it would stop war in the OPEC countries. There might be a series of paroxisms as they shook the whole nightmare off (along with most of their regimes) and tried to pick up again where they were forced to leave off. What position would Israel be left in? That much sudden change in such a powder-keg region would have to be traumatic. THat one isn't clear to me. Nor me. I found this a strange statement: further think about those military powerful nations that are very much dependent on oil, like OPEC countries Come on now, anyone in the world, say to yourself: military powerful nations that are very much dependent on oil - which nation springs instantly to mind? And whose government is seen to be in bed with all the oil companies? Strange reading of the tensions at the time of the Industrial Revolution too - it might be an interesting comparison, especially as it wasn't an industrial revolution so much as an energy revolution (steam), as is what you're proposing Kirk. But it needs a clear reading of history. I assumed the worker relocation could for a time be manufacture of the new energy source. Almost a pity to wipe out the prospect of real energy conservation in the industrialised nations - many reports have found it could create a great many jobs and considerable economic wellbeing. Perhaps they should do that anyway, it'd be good for them - introduce the thing gradually. That might solve the jobs problem too. My projection was the oil companies would very much like to stop the machine. Put all your money on that and sleep very peacefully at night. I am very interested in the last question of the series. What would you do if it was your invention? Worry myself to death? g Maybe I'd (very cautiously) go into partnership with a country like Tuvalu or Swaziland or something, if I could convince myself that I might not be doing them tremendous harm, or maybe with the Dalai Lama, if he'd have me. Or maybe I'd use Journey to Forever - since a village blacksmith could build it, do just that, in as many remote villages as possible, in as many really poor countries as possible, all with really lousy rural communications systems, and all without saying a word. If it were really as good as you say, they'd quickly spread it to other villages before anyone could do too much about it. Keep a close watch and at the first sign of enemy action bust the story to the world press in a really big way. And publish full designs and all relevant information in the public domain all over the Internet, with direct mailings to every grass-roots NGO in the world. Hey, I like it! You'd have to move fast though, very good coordination. But it could be done. Wow, what a scenario!! Best Keith Thanks, Kirk -Original Message- From: Pepu2 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 5:10 AM To: kirk Subject: Re[2]: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust if the creation of such machine is that simple then nobody would succeed to restrain its spread (although there probably would be attempts to do so). further, that would mean the need to re-allocate at least several million people to different businesses as very much of oil and related industries would cease to exist. reallocation of workforce always creates tension, look at the industrial revolution times in the 19th century... further think about those military powerful nations that are very much dependent on oil, like OPEC countries, it is very likely that action politics would gain popularity. in one word i would expect war. I am interested in what the forum truly believes. Please share your vision with me. You can mail me off list if you wish. [EMAIL PROTECTED] My question is this If you devised a machine so simple it could be built in a village workshop and it would provide the energy needs of a home or business what would the existing power structure do. Let's further assume that like cold fusion the thing would run many years without a fuel bill. What would the oil companies do? What would the government do? What would you do? I am honestly interested in your perceptions Kirk Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
