Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
Doug Thanks, at least there are some options but correct me if i'm wrong, Dojo2D interpretes SVG into VML for IE and if its FF, Opera, Safari it would not need to use Dojo, or if it did it would be output as SVG. What would happen if IE get rid of VML? Im reading up on Dojo just to get an idea but would welcome your comments on the above as you have some experience in this area. Many thanks Richard From: Doug Schepers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 18:11:54 -0400 Hi, Richard- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug Yeh it would be good to perhaps have some idea of where we are going, our apps rely heavily on SVG (closed apps that have logins) but my head is spinning at the moment what to do. Maybe I should leave it for another 12 months and then start to worry 8 months or so before ASV gewts pulled, hopefully there will be good news around the corner, unfortunatley all our users use IE, we are rewriting a new version to include FF, Opera and Safari, but IE is still the main browser. I hear Ajax , Dojo2d, laszlo, emiasyswhich is the right path.oh dear. Well, I don't think it's all that confusing. The choices really break down to 3 options: 1) hope/work toward SVG support in IE, either native or via a plugin (EmiaSys and all others mentioned on this list fall into this category) 2) use an abstracted framework that delivers whatever graphics format is appropriate for the target platform (Ajax, Dojo2d, laszlo all fall into this category) 3) use some other technology (XAML and Flash [possibly laszlo?] fall into this category) I'm avoiding category 3 like the plague. The nice thing is that categories 1 and 2 are orthogonal... a business can use a framework, and when IE SVG support is stable, reexamine if they still need that framework. It can be a permanent commitment (dojo has a lot of advantages apart from SVG) or a stopgap. I can tell you what my company is considering doing, and maybe that might help inform your choices. We are already using dojo, so we will be investigating how well our content can be presented in dojo2D. I admit to some initial skepticism; VML is really limited, but I will follow up on it and see how much can be done. If it is designed correctly, it could deliver SVG to FF, Opera, Safari, etc., VML to base IE, and SVG to IE+SVG (either via plug-in or native, down the line). dojo2D pros: * abstracted development layer * browser independent * doesn't matter if IE has an SVG plug-in or not dojo2D cons: * dependence on dojo framework (not so bad for my company) * new abstracted layer to learn * may not be as full-featured as programming to native SVG implementations (lowest common denominator) But my real aim is finding a replacement for ASV. Having spent a few days taking stock of our options, I am pretty confident that with the will behind this group, the commercial opportunities and incentives for other companies, and the available resources (both open and closed source), we will be able to get at least fair SVG support for IE. Of course, Adobe could help this along by providing the code to help us do this, rather than aggressively attacking SVG. As has been said before, they have every right to stop supporting ASV, but their next move determines how they will be seen in doing so. Regards- -Doug _ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] It is irresponsible for Adobe to give such short notice.
It is not acceptable to discontinue the download of ASV and restricting others to provide the download to their existing customers. Adobe must reconsider this, because we cannot redesign our released old applications. If they cannot allow us to host the download, they must at least allow some trusted volunteer (e.g. www.svg.org) to host the ASV3.0. This allows our new customers to continue to download the ASV. It is irresponsible for Adobe to give such short notice. They can discontinue but cannot hurt other products that were developed. We cannot redesign our old software. --Akil - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
Hi, Richard- My experience with Dojo is not all that comprehensive, and like you, I'm just starting to look into Dojo2D (I'd exchanged emails with Gavin Doughtie, but only on a preliminary level). But I'll answer your questions as best I can. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, at least there are some options but correct me if i'm wrong, Dojo2D interpretes SVG into VML for IE That is the current plan, yes. and if its FF, Opera, Safari it would not need to use Dojo, or if it did it would be output as SVG. Well, the whole point of using Dojo is that you would be using Dojo's abstracted layer, so you wouldn't make 2 codebases, one with SVG and one with the Dojo2D framework... you would simply use Dojo, and it would deliver the content in a way that the browser understands. What would happen if IE get rid of VML? Theoretically, Dojo could then change its low-level code to target whatever vector-format *is* available in IE, and you wouldn't have to change your high-level code. Maybe it would render it as Flash, or XAML, or best case, SVG if IE substituted VML for SVG or if a common plug-in were available. Worst-case scenario, they could raterize it on the server, perhaps, and deliver static PNGs (or even animated MNGs, if they were supported). Some small level of interactivity could even be preserved by using on-the-fly imagemaps. Naturally, this would take time and a reworking of the open-source Dojo2D library, but I'm sure that MS will not abandon VML without fair warning (then again, I didn't think Adobe would give such short notice either). Im reading up on Dojo just to get an idea but would welcome your comments on the above as you have some experience in this area. But let me close by saying that while looking into other options is prudent (I'm doing it myself), there's actually a lot that can happen in 4 months, and even more in a year and 4 months. It's not like the SVG implementors would be starting from scratch. There are suitable SVG viewers out there that need only to be adapted as IE plug-ins. Regards- -Doug - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Browser-based SVG rendering proof-of-concept
Hey folks, A few months back, I was playing around with a kind of SAX-like SVG path parser I wrote years ago. The idea was to see if I could render SVG paths to various targets: div's (yes, that is crazy), flash, canvas, and VML. Given the recent discussion about ASV's demise (and from some prodding from Doug Schepers), I thought some folks might be interested to see a kind of proof of concept. http://www.kevlindev.com/projects/jsdrawing/index.htm Hopefully this can help folks see that there are options available to us until we get a replacement viewer in IE. Kevin Lindsey KevLinDev - http://www.kevlindev.com - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] It is irresponsible for Adobe to give such short notice.
On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:16:03 +0200, akil_agarwal47 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is not acceptable to discontinue the download of ASV and restricting others to provide the download to their existing customers. Adobe must reconsider this, because we cannot redesign our released old applications. If they cannot allow us to host the download, they must at least allow some trusted volunteer (e.g. www.svg.org) to host the ASV3.0. This allows our new customers to continue to download the ASV. It is irresponsible for Adobe to give such short notice. They can discontinue but cannot hurt other products that were developed. We cannot redesign our old software. Adobe is a company. It is irresponible for them to make bad commercial decisions. They have no moral obligation to be nice to the people who use their products (and in this case it is a product people just used and never paid for). In my opinion, they are setting a bad precedent by withdrawing their viewer completely so fast. They have a competing technology solution, where there is a much higher lock-in factor than SVG - but if this is the way they deal with customers, how attractive is it to give them even more power over you? There are alternatives. Adobe has said they will make the plugin available for another year and a half. And frankly, I expect that in total breach of copyright law the Adobe plugin will still be readily available on the web if Adobe removes it from their site. cheers Chaals -- Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group hablo español - je parle français - jeg lærer norsk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Try Opera 9 now! http://opera.com - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] It is irresponsible for Adobe to give such short notice.
Hi, Chaals- Charles McCathieNevile wrote: Adobe is a company. It is irresponible for them to make bad commercial decisions. In fact, it is not only irresponsible, under US corporate law, it is illegal for corporations to make decisions that harm their shareholder's stock (see the interesting documentary The Corporation). This raises the question, though... is this decision good or bad for Adobe's stockholders? That has yet to be seen. They have no moral obligation to be nice to the people who use their products (and in this case it is a product people just used and never paid for). In my opinion, they are setting a bad precedent by withdrawing their viewer completely so fast. They have a competing technology solution, where there is a much higher lock-in factor than SVG - but if this is the way they deal with customers, how attractive is it to give them even more power over you? As you imply, acting immorally is legal, but may have undesirable consequences. There are alternatives. I'd like to point out that one of the alternatives is the excellent Opera browser (Chaals' employer)... and Firefox, and Safari... I know that we often cannot control what browser our target audience uses, but we can influence it. By pointing out the advantages of modern browsers, policies can change at a corporate level. Let your clients know that these other browsers support not only SVG, but also have other benefits as well (security, cross-platform support, better standards compliance so more sites will appear as intended, desktop widgets, and other features). My company is considering distributing copies of an SVG-enabled browser as one of its options. Adobe has said they will make the plugin available for another year and a half. And frankly, I expect that in total breach of copyright law the Adobe plugin will still be readily available on the web if Adobe removes it from their site. I'm sure you're right. In addition, if you sign their distribution agreement (available on their site, though who knows for how long), you can distribute it on a CD bundle (though you must keep their installer). But I would only want to use it as a very last resort... it's been dead for a long time, and it's going to stay dead. I'll probably keep it around for testing, but I expect to dump it for even that as soon as possible. Regards- -Doug - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
