Re: [swinog] UPC Mailservers problems with greylisting

[Benoit Panizzon]

Hi

Update on the Problem.

I got two replies, one yesterday stating, that the problem is about our
side, that the UPC servers rotate between 3 IP addresses and this
causes problems with greylisting.

=> Fact: Already last week I told them I see those 3 IP Addresses
from within the same /24 and that our greylisting implementation
considers IPv4 within /24 and IPv6 within /64 as 'same', but that the
problem was, that UPC does never retry to re-send the email after the
first attempt.

=> So the UPC Techs obviously stil didn't read my reply.

The reply also stated, that the UPC servers retry to send the email
every 4 hour.

=> Fact: I provided our logs of the case I did not see the servers
re-try. I asked them to check their logs.

=> Obviously the UCP Techs did not look at their logs.

Today I got the simple reply, that the problem was solved and that our
customers should re-try.

So I'm still waiting for a statement on what got wrong and why they
obviously neither ready my reply last week not looked at their logs
after I provided my logs clearly showing the problem.

Did someone else get a clear statement on the issue?

-Benoît Panizzon-
-- 
I m p r o W a r e   A G-Leiter Commerce Kunden
__

Zurlindenstrasse 29 Tel  +41 61 826 93 00
CH-4133 PrattelnFax  +41 61 826 93 01
Schweiz Web  http://www.imp.ch
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Re: [swinog] UPC Mailservers problems with greylisting

[Mike Kellenberger]

Hi all

Just received this update from UPC:

Many thanks for your e-mail. We reported this greylisting issue to our 
mailserver administrators.
They will take care of it and hopefully resolve this issue within the 
next week.


We added the 6 IP's of the outgoing mailservers to the DNSWL.org Whitelist.

84.116.36.91  vie01a-dmta-ch01-1.mx.upcmail.net
84.116.36.92  vie01a-dmta-ch01-2.mx.upcmail.net
84.116.36.93  vie01a-dmta-ch01-3.mx.upcmail.net
84.116.36.94  vie01a-dmta-ch02-1.mx.upcmail.net
84.116.36.95  vie01a-dmta-ch02-2.mx.upcmail.net
84.116.36.96  vie01a-dmta-ch02-3.mx.upcmail.net

Many thanks for your understanding.

Kind regards,

M.Giger

Abuse Desk

ab...@upc.ch

UPC Schweiz GmbH
Postfach
8021 Zürich
0800 66 88 66
upc.ch


Regards,

Mike

--
Mike Kellenberger | Escapenet GmbH
www.escapenet.ch
+41 52 235 0700/04
Skype mikek70atwork

On 05.01.2017 10:36, Benoit Panizzon wrote:

Quick update on that case.

UPC Switzerland is fully aware of the problem.

The Mail-Platform in the Netherlands is operated by UPC Austria
(probably chello.at). And they still deny that there is a problem
on their side and blame the ISPs that do greylisting.

UPC Switzerland is trying to escalate the problem.

Regards

-Benoît Panizzon-




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Re: [swinog] UPC Mailservers problems with greylisting

[Benoit Panizzon]

Quick update on that case.

UPC Switzerland is fully aware of the problem.

The Mail-Platform in the Netherlands is operated by UPC Austria
(probably chello.at). And they still deny that there is a problem
on their side and blame the ISPs that do greylisting.

UPC Switzerland is trying to escalate the problem.

Regards

-Benoît Panizzon-
-- 
I m p r o W a r e   A G-Leiter Commerce Kunden
__

Zurlindenstrasse 29 Tel  +41 61 826 93 00
CH-4133 PrattelnFax  +41 61 826 93 01
Schweiz Web  http://www.imp.ch
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Re: [swinog] UPC Mailservers problems with greylisting

[Benoit Panizzon]

Hi Per

> Is there any point in greylisting genuine mailservers?  We only
> greylist dodgy-looking setups. 

True, no point in greylisting a propper SMTP engine that does queueing
and would resend the email later in case of a 4XX error.

But how do you find out which ip's to greylist and which not to?

We use milter-greylist and this has nice features like being able to do
DNS whitelist lookups and query SPF records to decide whether to
greylist a specific trippled or not. And it can sync it's database
across multiple servers.

-Benoît Panizzon-
-- 
I m p r o W a r e   A G-Leiter Commerce Kunden
__

Zurlindenstrasse 29 Tel  +41 61 826 93 00
CH-4133 PrattelnFax  +41 61 826 93 01
Schweiz Web  http://www.imp.ch
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Re: [swinog] UPC Mailservers problems with greylisting

[Benoit Panizzon]

Hi

> I do not greylist servers with correct spf record. With UPC i think
> the main problem is the missing NDR.

We also do not greylist if the SPF record matches.
We do not greylist IP's listed in the DNSWL.org or SWINOG
Whitelist either.

But none of this was true for the new 'NL' ranges used by upcmail.net.
The ranges in AT were already whitelisted, thus not causing that
problem.

So far no progress with the ticket I opened @ UPC.

-Benoît Panizzon-
-- 
I m p r o W a r e   A G-Leiter Commerce Kunden
__

Zurlindenstrasse 29 Tel  +41 61 826 93 00
CH-4133 PrattelnFax  +41 61 826 93 01
Schweiz Web  http://www.imp.ch
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Re: [swinog] UPC Mailservers problems with greylisting

[Per Jessen]

Viktor Steinmann wrote:

> On 04.01.2017 08:54, Per Jessen wrote:
>>
>> Is there any point in greylisting genuine mailservers?  We only
>> greylist dodgy-looking setups.
>>
>>
>> /Per
>>
> I don't see how this approach would scale. 

To my knowledge, it scales quite well. We maintain a list of regex
server-name patterns that we consider 'dodgy' as well as a whitelist. 
If a reverse lookup matches one of these patterns, we greylist.  There
are some more checks, e.g. on the HELO, but the reverse mapping is the
main one.  We run this on a cluster of some 45-46 boxes.  The list of
patterns is fairly stable. 


-- 
Per Jessen, Zürich (1.9°C)
http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland.



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Re: [swinog] UPC Mailservers problems with greylisting

[Beat Siegenthaler]

On 03.01.17 16:27, Benoit Panizzon wrote:
> Same Problem here, since at least 24. December.
>
Same here since beginning of december. Whitelistied UPC  9.12. 21:37

I do not greylist servers with correct spf record. With UPC i think the
main problem is the missing NDR.

happy new year!!

Beat


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Re: [swinog] UPC Mailservers problems with greylisting

[Klaus Ethgen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hi,

Am Mi den  4. Jan 2017 um  8:54 schrieb Per Jessen:
> Is there any point in greylisting genuine mailservers?  We only greylist
> dodgy-looking setups. 

I had the same in mind but didn't post as I only run a small server
pressent days.

I utilize grossd and use several blacklists (also not that trusted ones)
to decide who to greylist and who not.

   dnsbl = blacklist.woody.ch;2
   dnsbl = bl.spamcop.net
   dnsbl = ix.dnsbl.manitu.net
   dnsbl = pbl.spamhaus.org
   dnsbl = sbl-xbl.spamhaus.org

That setup made it really good. "Normal" mailservers get their mails
delivered without any interuption and even if you end on a blacklist for
whatever reason, your mail can get delivered later.

Regards
   Klaus
- -- 
Klaus Ethgen   http://www.ethgen.ch/
pub  4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16Klaus Ethgen 
Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753  62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C
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Re: [swinog] UPC Mailservers problems with greylisting

[Viktor Steinmann]

On 04.01.2017 08:54, Per Jessen wrote:


Is there any point in greylisting genuine mailservers?  We only greylist
dodgy-looking setups.


/Per

I don't see how this approach would scale. We greylist everything. If 
some mail servers appear to have a problem with that and are legit, they 
are whitelisted. That approach scales for us.


Kind regards,

Viktor


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Re: [swinog] UPC Mailservers problems with greylisting

[Per Jessen]

Mike Kellenberger wrote:

> Hi
> 
> We are seeing problems with greylisting in mails coming from UPC
> mailservers. After receiving our "451 Greylisting" response, we never
> see a retry of the mail again. The sender does not receive an NDR. We
> have seen this behaviour from the servers at 84.116.36.xxx. Other
> servers for example the ones in the range 62.179.121.xxx are retrying
> correctly.
> 
> Anybody from UPC here to help sort this out or is anyone else seeing
> the same problem or is no one using greylisting anymore these days?

Is there any point in greylisting genuine mailservers?  We only greylist
dodgy-looking setups. 


/Per

-- 
Per Jessen, Zürich (1.2°C)
http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland.



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Re: [swinog] UPC Mailservers problems with greylisting

[Benoit Panizzon]

Same Problem here, since at least 24. December.

Opened a case today @ UPC. I keep you updated.

-- 
-Benoît Panizzon-
-- 
I m p r o W a r e   A G-Leiter Commerce Kunden
__

Zurlindenstrasse 29 Tel  +41 61 826 93 00
CH-4133 PrattelnFax  +41 61 826 93 01
Schweiz Web  http://www.imp.ch
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Re: [swinog] UPC Mailservers problems with greylisting

[Matthias Egger]

On 01/03/2017 03:09 PM, Mike Kellenberger wrote:
> We are seeing problems with greylisting in mails coming from UPC
> mailservers. After receiving our "451 Greylisting" response, we never
> see a retry of the mail again. The sender does not receive an NDR. We
> have seen this behaviour from the servers at 84.116.36.xxx. Other
> servers for example the ones in the range 62.179.121.xxx are retrying
> correctly.
Now that you mention that...

I have seen the same behaviour since January 1.:

reject: RCPT from vie01a-dmta-ch02-1.mx.upcmail.net[84.116.36.94]: 450 4.=
2.0

and then was never seen again (at least with that mail) and alos  never
sent a NDR at all.

-- 
Matthias Egger
ETH Zurich
Department of Information Technology  maeg...@ee.ethz.ch
and Electrical Engineering
IT Support Group (ISG.EE), ETF/D/102  Phone +41 (0)44 632 03 90
Sternwartstrasse 7, CH-8092 ZurichFax   +41 (0)44 632 11 95



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Re: [swinog] UPC Mailservers problems with greylisting

[Marc Balmer]

> We are seeing problems with greylisting in mails coming from UPC
> mailservers. After receiving our "451 Greylisting" response, we never
> see a retry of the mail again. The sender does not receive an NDR. We
> have seen this behaviour from the servers at 84.116.36.xxx. Other
> servers for example the ones in the range 62.179.121.xxx are retrying
> correctly.
> 
> Anybody from UPC here to help sort this out or is anyone else seeing the
> same problem or is no one using greylisting anymore these days?

We have seen the very same problem with the very same ISP...

We turned off greylisting for now.


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[swinog] UPC Mailservers problems with greylisting

[Mike Kellenberger]

Hi

We are seeing problems with greylisting in mails coming from UPC 
mailservers. After receiving our "451 Greylisting" response, we never 
see a retry of the mail again. The sender does not receive an NDR. We 
have seen this behaviour from the servers at 84.116.36.xxx. Other 
servers for example the ones in the range 62.179.121.xxx are retrying 
correctly.


Anybody from UPC here to help sort this out or is anyone else seeing the 
same problem or is no one using greylisting anymore these days?


Regards,

Mike

--
Mike Kellenberger | Escapenet GmbH
www.escapenet.ch
+41 52 235 0700/04
Skype mikek70atwork


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