date:20090803

On Sunday 02 August 2009 23:42:13 Shaun McDonald wrote:
 http://openstreetmap.co.uk redirects to the main site.
 (as does .com)
The goal is to create interlinks between country communities (like most of the 
actual websites do, but with a complete list). I'm not really interested by 
aliases of the main domain, even if it's better to see them redirect to the 
main website than being cybersquatted.
-- 
Vincent MEURISSE

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Re: [OSM-talk] Nationnal websites

On Monday 03 August 2009 06:50:36 Stefan Baebler wrote:
 openstreetmap.si is currently pointing to openstreetmap.org due to
 hosting problems.
I will be happy to add it to the list as soon as it come back.
-- 
Vincent MEURISSE

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Re: [OSM-talk] revert.pl

2009-08-03 Thread andrzej zaborowski

2009/8/3 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:
 andrzej zaborowski wrote:
 Similarly deletions can be reverted easily

 No, because the osc file does not contain all information about the previous
 state of the deleted object!

 (It only works for untagged nodes.)

Are you sure?  I deleted a pharmacy in this changeset:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/1990924

and it has all the tags in place.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] revert.pl

2009-08-03 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

andrzej zaborowski wrote:
 Are you sure?  I deleted a pharmacy in this changeset:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/1990924
 
 and it has all the tags in place.

Then I stand corrected - it seems to work for all nodes, whether tagged 
or not. But it doesn't work for ways or relations. Or at least it didn't 
when I last looked ;-)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [OSM-talk] residential and unclassified in Australia WAS definition of the main highway-tag

2009-08-03 Thread James Livingston

On 02/08/2009, at 9:56 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 yes. A residential road should be avoided if possible (slow, dangerous
 and noisy for residents / playing kids), while I don't see this in
 industrial or commercial context.

Not having been to Europe I can't say for sure, I wouldn't say that in  
Australia. I'd generally prefer residential over industrial roads,  
because the latter have more trucks, more variability in road  
condition (due to heavy vehicle damage), and the like.

In any case, if you have a router that does this kind of thing,  
wouldn't it be better to base it off landuse=residential/industrial?


On 03/08/2009, at 7:50 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 sorry, but I can't believe that. All roads in your country have the
 same width? The same minimum radius for curves?

They don't, but that's more to do with tertiary - residential/ 
unclassified than it's not really on an industrial/residential basis -  
what we tag as tertiary is different to what we tag as residential in  
both areas.


 (IMHO) residential:
 http://maps.google.it/maps?hl=deie=UTF8ll=-37.675859,145.165879spn=0.000252,0.000597t=hz=21
 (IMHO) unclassified (~25% wider in the aerial):
 http://maps.google.it/maps?hl=deie=UTF8ll=-37.769521,145.02807spn=0.000504,0.001195t=hz=21

Sure, and I can find a heap of examples where they're the same.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Nationnal websites

2009-08-03 Thread Shaun McDonald


On 3 Aug 2009, at 07:53, Vincent MEURISSE wrote:

 On Sunday 02 August 2009 23:42:13 Shaun McDonald wrote:
 http://openstreetmap.co.uk redirects to the main site.
 (as does .com)
 The goal is to create interlinks between country communities (like  
 most of the
 actual websites do, but with a complete list). I'm not really  
 interested by
 aliases of the main domain, even if it's better to see them redirect  
 to the
 main website than being cybersquatted.

Why not have a page on the wiki for these two lists? One list for  
national websites, and the other for those that redirect to the main  
website?

Shaun


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Re: [OSM-talk] Does this mean we could launch our own OSM satellite?

Marc Coevoet wrote:
 You can try the quadcopter too..

 http://www.quadcopter.org/index.php5?title=Quadcopter_Home

 Marc

quadcopters/hexacopters/octocopters/microcopters equipped with a camera
are much better than a satellite. Easier and cheaper to use, and most
important: satellites give only rather poor quality images, often with
lots of clouds... Digital orthophotos and the high resolution imagery of
google (and others) are made from planes, not from satellites.

regards


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Re: [OSM-talk] Does this mean we could launch our own OSM satellite?

2009-08-03 Thread Jack Stringer

Quadcopter!

I can imagine the stories in the press when this thing starts to fly.

Reports of a UFO has been reported over parts of Texas, there are
reports it maybe terrorists. etc.


Jack Stringer

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Re: [OSM-talk] Does this mean we could launch our own OSM satellite?


--- On Mon, 3/8/09, SLXViper slxvi...@gmx.net wrote:

 quadcopters/hexacopters/octocopters/microcopters equipped
 with a camera
 are much better than a satellite. Easier and cheaper to
 use, and most
 important: satellites give only rather poor quality images,
 often with
 lots of clouds... Digital orthophotos and the high
 resolution imagery of
 google (and others) are made from planes, not from
 satellites.

Some sort of decently sized blimp would probably be cheaper to run and don't 
need to constantly use energy to stay above the ground.

I wonder if you can get a cheap second hand blimp from somewhere...


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Does this mean we could launch our own OSM s atellite?

2009-08-03 Thread Aun Johnsen (via Webmail)

On Mon, 3 Aug 2009 09:24:55 + (GMT), John Smith
delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:
 --- On Mon, 3/8/09, SLXViper slxvi...@gmx.net wrote:
 
 quadcopters/hexacopters/octocopters/microcopters equipped
 with a camera
 are much better than a satellite. Easier and cheaper to
 use, and most
 important: satellites give only rather poor quality images,
 often with
 lots of clouds... Digital orthophotos and the high
 resolution imagery of
 google (and others) are made from planes, not from
 satellites.
 
 Some sort of decently sized blimp would probably be cheaper to run and
 don't need to constantly use energy to stay above the ground.
 
 I wonder if you can get a cheap second hand blimp from somewhere...
 
 
OSM Zeppelin finally moored up at Empire State Building?

-- 
Brgds
Aun Johnsen
via Webmail

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Re: [OSM-talk] Does this mean we could launch our own OSM satellite?


--- On Mon, 3/8/09, Aun Johnsen (via Webmail) skipp...@gimnechiske.org wrote:

 OSM Zeppelin finally moored up at Empire State Building?

What would the good of that be, it should be out mapping!


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] road width

now i get to own up to having a flickr account ;-(

these roads are all the same width legally, and the actual width depends on 
the grader driver.

also none of them are dry weather only roads - so when you see that marker 
here it means there is no place to drive when its wet.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/36563...@n07/sets/72157621806266261/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Does this mean we could launch our own OSM s atellite?

2009-08-03 Thread Aun Johnsen (via Webmail)

On Mon, 3 Aug 2009 09:36:47 + (GMT), John Smith
delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:
 --- On Mon, 3/8/09, Aun Johnsen (via Webmail) skipp...@gimnechiske.org
 wrote:
 
 OSM Zeppelin finally moored up at Empire State Building?
 
 What would the good of that be, it should be out mapping!

Stocking up on supplies and crew for a whole year of mapping of course :D
Need her operating non-stop 24/7


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Re: [OSM-talk] Does this mean we could launch our own OSM satellite?

2009-08-03 Thread hanoj

 Some sort of decently sized blimp would probably be cheaper to run and
 don't need to constantly use energy to stay above the ground.

 I wonder if you can get a cheap second hand blimp from somewhere...


 OSM Zeppelin finally moored up at Empire State Building?
maybe http://www.airshipclub.com/

hanoj

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Re: [OSM-talk] Does this mean we could launch our own OSM satellite?




--- On Mon, 3/8/09, hanoj eha...@gmail.com wrote:

 maybe http://www.airshipclub.com/

They seem to get about a bit, anyone contacted them about having a high-res 
photo/video pointing downwards?


  

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[OSM-talk] [voting] historic=paleontological_site

2009-08-03 Thread marcellobil...@gmail

Deal all,
voting is opened:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/paleontological_site

Best regards
Marcello B.



-
( proposed: Sun Jul 19 )
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-July/038714.html


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Re: [OSM-talk] Does this mean we could launch our own OSM satellite?

2009-08-03 Thread Michael Kugelmann

Ulf Lamping wrote:
 That's a small step for openstreetmap,
 one giant leap for quadcopters
   
;-)))


Best regards,
Michael.


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Re: [OSM-talk] definition of the main highway-tag

2009-08-03 Thread Christiaan Welvaart

On Sun, 2 Aug 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

 2009/8/1 Christiaan Welvaart c...@daneel.dyndns.org:
 On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 Well I disagree. IMHO we should tag what is 'on the ground', not invent
 things or try to tag what's in people's minds. If a government body gives a
 road it maintains some importance (or class/type) we should tag it
 accordingly.

 yes. We should tag the importance it receives. But that's what this is
 about. Class and type put equally aside are not helpful in this
 discussion. Classes there are also in law more than just
 administrative classes. Maybe you can read German, so have a look at
 this:

I don't see what you're saying here. Do you have a complete text to 
replace the intro text on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway ?

Maybe the following helps a bit (derived from the current text):

There are at least 4 attributes of a road that can be used to determine 
highway types:
1. the physical attributes:
   a. number and surface quality of the regular lanes
   b. signs for access, right of way (yield), road type, etc.
   c. whether there is a separate cycleway along the road
   d. presence (and programming) of traffic lights
   e. whether buildings are at the road (addresses)
   f. whether buildings are near the road (within X m)
   g. how access points/crossings/etc. are built
   etc.
2. intended use/function
   Roads usually must be built and maintained. The people who arrange
   this construction work need to have some idea of the function of each
   road.
3. actual use
   Must be measured, usually written as number of vehicles/day,
   differentiated by:
   a. vehicle type
   b. local/regional/other traffic
4. who funds road maintenance

IMHO we are already tagging intended use (2.) often by looking at the 
pysicial attributes (1.) so it would be nice to have this described on the 
wiki.


 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stra%C3%9Fenkategorie

This seems to be based on the same 3 categories as in The Netherlands, 
and then further subcategorized. The 'Verbindungsfunktionsstufen' might be 
useful for tagging.


 Christiaan

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging roads

2009/8/3 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com:
 On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Martin
 Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 Tag the width of the surface on which users of the way are expected to 
 travel.
 I agree and would like to add: and that is not constricted in the
 full usable height

 I think the maxheight tag should be used here.

no. I tried to explain, but I was aware that it might be not
understandable. I am not talking about height. It's about width. But
the width is only then available, if there are no obstacles above. In
your definition you were defining the width by the width of the
surface on which users of the way are expected to travel.. This
should include that above this surface (I would suggest up to 4,4
meters or up to maxheight where available) there are no obstacles,
because otherwise literally it is not complete. The technical correct
term in German is Lichtraumbreite (my dictionaries don't know it in
English, maybe someone else here can help us).

 There is no need to
 complicate the definition of width. If there is a large obstacle, then
 the width under that obstacle would not be included if and only if
 users of the way are NOT expected to travel under that obstacle.

it's IMHO not about complication but about completeness. And it
doesn't matter if the obstacle is large or small, it matters if is
removable or not.

 well, why not outside the lines? If you really have to know the width
 of the road (transport or similar, or you want to calculate the sealed
 area), you won't care about lines.

 Because users are not expected to travel outside the lines. It also
 removes the need to consider the quality of the road outside the
 lines, e.g. if there's gravel next to a paved road, does that count?

well, it might be interesting to know under certain conditions about
this as well, but I agree that this gravel should be put into other
tags (e.g. shoulder, shoulder:width, shoulder:surface). But why
not put the width from line to shoulder, still paved, into the
width-tag? You are not expected to use this, but you can do.

 What about a drop-off? etc., etc. The lines are there for a reason,
 and that is to mark the width of the road that is designated as
 suitable for driving on. I think that's the most suitable width to
 tag.

actually I would consider the lines part of the lanes, not of the
road. So I would see the width between the inner border of the lines
as lanes:width (gets more complicated with different widths of the
lanes, but this is a general problem in OSM: currently can't model
lanes as they are).

This results in a hierarchical model:
1. entire road-construction, consisting of
2. paved road, shoulders, beam barrier, separators, bed, 
3. the paved roads furthermore consistentent of
different lanes

where each level can have it's own tags for e.g. width, surface,
maxspeed, maxheight, maxweight, access restrictions, etc. which would
be inherited to the sublevels if there was not the same tag overriding
it.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging roads

2009/8/3 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:
The technical correct
 term in German is Lichtraumbreite (my dictionaries don't know it in
 English, maybe someone else here can help us).

now I found it, maybe it's clearance width

Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] definition of the main highway-tag

2009-08-03 Thread Elena of Valhalla

On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Christiaan
Welvaartc...@daneel.dyndns.org wrote:
 Why would who maintains a road directly determine its administrative
 classification?  If a municipality decides that some road is a motorway, we
 better tag it as such. In The Netherlands some provinces maintain short
 stretches of motorway, for example, while most motorways are maintained by
 the national government. The maintainer of a road can be tagged
 independently. So is it really a big change for Germany and Italy to define
 the highway tag as the administrative classification of the road?

As Martin already said, yes, it would be a big change, and it would
become quite meaningless (I speak about Italy, don't know about
Germany)

At least in Italy, the law states that the importance of a road
defines its administrative status, and this in turn decided who is
going to maintain it: if it was like this it would be great for OSM.

The problem is that a few years ago the central government road agency
started to try and get rid of some expenses, and lots of statali
(nationwide importance) got demoted to regionali and provinciali
(lower and more local importance) so that somebody else had to pay for
them, even when they still were the only road connecting two cities.
Conversely, since the national agency is quite slow and lots of old
statali pass through densely built areas, some local government
decided to build better variants; they have grown to be more important
than the old statali, but they're still categorized as provinciali
because of who has build them.

Motorways and half-motorways (extraurbane principali according to
the italian law, superstrade for anyone else) are categorized by the
italian law
according to physical features instead, regardless of importance and
maintainer, so the above does not apply.

-- 
Elena ``of Valhalla''

homepage: http://www.trueelena.org
email: elena.valha...@gmail.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] definition of the main highway-tag

2009/8/3 Christiaan Welvaart c...@daneel.dyndns.org:
 I don't see what you're saying here. Do you have a complete text to
 replace the intro text on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway ?

NO, of course not. All I wanted to do is change the first phrase:
The highway tag is the primary tag used for highways. It is often the
only tag. It is a very general and sometimes vague description of the
physical structure of the highway. 

into this one:
The highway tag is the primary tag used for highways. It is often the
only tag and describes the importance of the highway in the road
system.

This would also imply some further modifications in the general
definition of highway, where there was put emphasis in the physical
state, while all particular tags (motorway, primary, secondary, etc.)
could remain the same for one simple reason: they already define
themselves about importance and not physical state (have a look, they
speak about Important roads that aren't motorways, generally
linking larger towns, leading to/from a primary road from/to a
primary road , generally linking smaller towns and villages,
typically form the lowest form of the interconnecting grid network,
etc. more than about physical state (just tertiary and motorway, where
motorway is actually defined by legislation (motorway-sign) and not by
beeing something like 4 lanes and more).

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] residential and unclassified in Australia WAS definition of the main highway-tag

2009/8/3 James Livingston doc...@mac.com:
On 02/08/2009, at 9:56 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
yes. A residential road should be avoided if possible (slow, dangerous
and noisy for residents / playing kids), while I don't see this in
industrial or commercial context.

Not having been to Europe I can't say for sure, I wouldn't say that in
Australia. I'd generally prefer residential over industrial roads,
because the latter have more trucks, more variability in road
condition (due to heavy vehicle damage), and the like.

OK, so it remains the same: there is an interest to know whether it is
a residential street or a small one in a not-residential-area.

In any case, if you have a router that does this kind of thing,
wouldn't it be better to base it off landuse=residential/industrial?

the problem is, that it is far more timeconsuming to check this for
all roads instead of having the information already avaible as such.

On 03/08/2009, at 7:50 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
sorry, but I can't believe that. All roads in your country have the
same width? The same minimum radius for curves?

They don't, but that's more to do with tertiary - residential/
unclassified than it's not really on an industrial/residential basis -
what we tag as tertiary is different to what we tag as residential in
both areas.

well, tag whatever you like, I just can tell you, that the definiton
in the wiki says for residential, that there must be at least at one
side residences. If you don't care about this definition, do as you
like. You'll IMHO loose a datum and gain nothing.

(IMHO) residential:
http://maps.google.it/maps?hl=deie=UTF8ll=-37.675859,145.165879spn=0.000252,0.000597t=hz=21
(IMHO) unclassified (~25% wider in the aerial):
http://maps.google.it/maps?hl=deie=UTF8ll=-37.769521,145.02807spn=0.000504,0.001195t=hz=21

Sure, and I can find a heap of examples where they're the same.

but I guess you won't find an industrial zone with very narrow streets
(unclassified, probably you'll find footways and service), while of
course in residential areas there might be wider streets (and often
they won't be residential but tertiary then).

Just for my interest: is any of you familiar with the national/local
planning regulations for roads in your area? Maybe it would help to
have a look if you haven't already done so.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] road width

2009/8/3 Liz ed...@billiau.net:
 now i get to own up to having a flickr account ;-(

 these roads are all the same width legally, and the actual width depends on
 the grader driver.

 also none of them are dry weather only roads - so when you see that marker
 here it means there is no place to drive when its wet.


 http://www.flickr.com/photos/36563...@n07/sets/72157621806266261/

actually none of them I would consider a residential road. They could
be everything from primary (not probable) to track, dependant on the
surrounding and actual use (what they link).
usually we would think about something like this when talking about
residential roads:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Image:Residential.jpg
IMHO you can find them just inside inhabited areas, not in the county
side between fields.

cheers,
Martin

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[OSM-talk] -3 messages in the inbox

2009-08-03 Thread Raphael Studer

Hi,

I don't know how i did this, but I've got 3 new and -3 old messages in
my osm inbox..

Regards
Raphael
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Re: [OSM-talk] -3 messages in the inbox

2009-08-03 Thread Tom Hughes

On 03/08/09 15:10, Raphael Studer wrote:

 I don't know how i did this, but I've got 3 new and -3 old messages in
 my osm inbox..

I think you did it by deleting messages without reading them... So you 
have zero messages (because they have all been deleted) but three new 
messages (because three have not been read) and subtracting the number 
of new messages from the total gives you -3 old messages ;-)

I'll commit a fix to make it ignore deleted messages when working out 
the new messages.

Tom

-- 
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Nationnal websites

On Monday 03 August 2009 10:48:17 am Shaun McDonald wrote:
 Why not have a page on the wiki for these two lists? One list for  
 national websites, and the other for those that redirect to the main  
 website?
I was thinking about this. I just wanted to be sure to have a quite complete 
list before starting using it.

Looking at the few answer I got, it seems that my first list was quite good. 
(or that site owner don't read the list)
Can some Canadian tell me if there is a chance to see openstreetmap.ca back ?

I hope national sites will start using this list instead of their old ones. 
For now, moving between sites can be adventurous : 
- openstreetmap.de has the best list with only 3 missing sites
- openstreetmap.tw has a wrong link to their own site
- many sites don't have links at all
- openstreetmap.it is listed nowhere (I found it just by guessing the name)

-- 
Vincent MEURISSE

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging roads

2009-08-03 Thread Blaž Lorger

On Monday 03 August 2009 12:18:14 Emilie Laffray wrote:

  4. At the end it is always up to the individual mapper to decide what is
  narrow. While 1 meter is 1 meter.

 Yes, 1 meter is 1 meter. That's why using an approximation is actually
 worse than using a relative factor. Using a precise number is going to
 introduce errors that can be quite bad in the end. I strongly oppose any
 tags that is using a measurement that WILL NOT be accurate. Height is fine
 because it is defined. Relative parameters are more flexible.

We generally agree that there needs to be a way to assure quality of entered 
data. Using two distinct tags for measured and estimated values (width and 
est_width) is one possible approach. But in my opinion it is not the right 
approach:

a. You must be careful when entering the data to use appropriate tag. It is 
easier to use tag width in place of est_width. So most people will probably 
use width instead of est_width. In such dual tag approach using tag width for 
estimated width and measured_width for exact width is likely to give better 
results, since people that put more effort in gathering data are more likely to 
put more effort in entering such data in database.

b. But dual tag approach is also problematic for software that uses data. 
Either software has to use exact value with fallback to estimated value, or 
more likely, software will only use one value and ignore the other. This in 
turn will likely cause that mappers will use tag supported by software 
regardless if their data is accurate or not.

What I'm proposing is to add additional quality assurance tags. Absence of 
such tags would mean that there is no way to know how accurate data is. But 
presence of such tags would give reasonable assurance on data quality. I see 
need for two such tags: measurement method and date of data acquisition.
So, when road width is just roughly estimated mapper would add only tag width. 
When road width is actually measured, tagging would look like this:
   width=6.5
   width:method=tape
   width:date=2009-07-23
When width is measured on aerial photography method could be aerial and date 
would be date when photography was taken, ...

This approach can be used with all values that require measurement. It gives a 
way to quickly gather rough and inaccurate data with a way to identify 
inaccurate data, so it can be improved upon.



  5. Should definition of default road width ever change. All narrow=*
  tagging
  will be completely useless and will have to be reevaluated from scratch.
  Actually it will be useless before that due to subjective nature of value
  assigned to tag.

 Roads don't change width every day. Any change in the road will likely mean
 that it has been redone and therefore would probably need to be retagged if
 you want to be fully accurate in the first place.

  6. You will actually require large number of values for narrow to even
  approach granularity offered by one simple tag width. Either you will
  have to
  have narrow=no|foot|bicycle|motorcycle|car|suv|lgv|hgv|... Vale yes could
  not
  be used, since it does not specify how narrow the road is or it could be
  equivalent for narrow=car.

 I disagree. It is a relative parameter not to the vehicles but to the roads
 tag used. But in all honesty, it will only be applied on the smaller subset
 of the roads to be properly meaningful.

  7. You must prepare clear enough instructions how to select value for
  narrow,
  to reduce subjective factor to minimum.

 I believe that the subjective factor is no worse and actually better than
 using approximate width. It is something that is relative.

  8. You must get renderers to support it.

 Like everything else, like width..

  On the other hand, if you use tag width, which is already established tag
  if I
  may add, you have to accomplish following:
  1. You must get renderers to support it.
  2. Prepare some guidelines how to estimate road width. Of course using
  measuring equipment is always preferred but less realistic.
  3. Deprecate tag est_width and always store width data in tag width. Add
  additional tag that would state accuracy of width data. This is really
  not necessary, but will be easier to use by the software and probably
  also easier
  to map.

 This is ridiculous. I don't see how you can give guidelines to estimate
 road width. One of the problem with that is that in some areas the roads
 width will be fluctuating. In residential areas, it is common for streets
 to be changing.
 Deprecating est_width is a bit ridiculous. You are just saying in the end
 that width is estimated and therefore cannot be relied upon. Numbers and
 units are not something to be toyed with. The estimated factor clearly says
 it all. It is estimated. If you change this, width will not have a proper
 meaning as you will be mixing two qualities (estimated very broadly, and
 estimated ok).
 The relative factor of narrow is avoiding most of those issues since it is

Re: [OSM-talk] Nationnal websites

Hi,

www.openstreetmap.is and osm.is weren't mentioned as far as I could see.
Both redirect to the normal openstreetmap.org domain.
Btw: why do all replies go by default to osm-t...@meurisse.org instead
of t...@openstreetmap.org?

regards

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Re: [OSM-talk] Multiple nodes for one country

2009-08-03 Thread Peter Körner

Peter Körner schrieb:
 andrzej zaborowski schrieb:
 Hi Peter,
 I don't think anybody has a reason to object to merging them.  At
 least me and User:Mala have been merging some of these nodes last week
 and we got no blackmail so far :)  I believe we went through all the
 country nodes which didn't have a name:pl= or name:it= assigned yet so
 out of your list at most 15 or so countries should still remain
 duplicated.

 Cheers
 
 The main problem is that I'm unable to produce an up-to-date list from 
 database since I don't have the resources to import an up-to-date dump.
 
 I'll try to process an up-to-date planet.osm tomorrow to generate an 
 up-to-date list from it. It's a pity that cassini is not updated via the 
 diffs right now.
 
 At the next step I'll generate a list for each wikimedia-language 
 containing all countries and their names in this language, so people can 
 correct the locale names more easy. It seems you've already done this 
 for pl and it -- I'm about to do it for de.
 
 Peter
 

I threw an nearly up-to-date planet.osm against a simple 
sax-parser-script in php and after it ran about 10 hours (such a 
planet.osm is a really big thing) it produced this table:

http://toolserver.org/~mazder/duplicate-countries/from-planet.osm/

Looks much better! Still 26 countries are duplicated, but this could be 
fixed manually, so I'll do that now.

On some time in the near future, when cassini holds an regularly updated 
gis-database we'll be able to track such duplications at 
http://toolserver.org/~mazder/duplicate-countries/

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Photos

2009-08-03 Thread John McKerrell


On 1 Aug 2009, at 01:04, Stefan de Konink wrote:

 On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, Tristan Thomas wrote:

 Is there any method of adding photos etc. to OSM like there is for
 Google Maps.  For instance, if you navigate to somewhere on Google  
 Maps,
 it comes up with user submitted geo-tagged photos.  Is there anything
 similar for OSM?  If not, should there be?

 http://www.openstreetphoto.org/map.html user submitted geotagged  
 photos
 are basically stored now in one by KML file.

I'm also working on something for openstreetview.org to allow users to  
upload their photos, Coming Soon once I get more time to work on it.  
In general though it you're just looking for nice photos to show up on  
openstreetmap.org, well that gets onto the question of what that page  
is about, is it a pretty map, a tool for mappers, etc...

John

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging roads

2009/8/3 Blaž Lorger blaz.lor...@triera.net:
 On Monday 03 August 2009 12:18:14 Emilie Laffray wrote:
 We generally agree that there needs to be a way to assure quality of entered
 data. Using two distinct tags for measured and estimated values (width and
 est_width) is one possible approach. But in my opinion it is not the right
 approach:

 a. You must be careful when entering the data to use appropriate tag. It is
 easier to use tag width in place of est_width. So most people will probably
 use width instead of est_width.

this might be true, but most probably people won't tag any width when
just mapping superficiously. I agree that it would have been better to
have width for the estimated width and something like precise_width
or measured_width for measured values.

 In such dual tag approach using tag width for
 estimated width and measured_width for exact width is likely to give better
 results, since people that put more effort in gathering data are more likely 
 to
 put more effort in entering such data in database.

+1

 b. But dual tag approach is also problematic for software that uses data.
 Either software has to use exact value with fallback to estimated value, or
 more likely, software will only use one value and ignore the other. This in
 turn will likely cause that mappers will use tag supported by software
 regardless if their data is accurate or not.

maybe you should be more confident in the others ;-). I don't think
that most of our width-tags is useless because unprecise or badly
estimated.

 What I'm proposing is to add additional quality assurance tags. Absence of
 such tags would mean that there is no way to know how accurate data is. But
 presence of such tags would give reasonable assurance on data quality. I see
 need for two such tags: measurement method and date of data acquisition.
 So, when road width is just roughly estimated mapper would add only tag width.
 When road width is actually measured, tagging would look like this:
   width=6.5
   width:method=tape
   width:date=2009-07-23
 When width is measured on aerial photography method could be aerial and date
 would be date when photography was taken, ...

actually there is already some people using tags like source and note
to add this kind of information. But they are few I guess.

 This approach can be used with all values that require measurement. It gives a
 way to quickly gather rough and inaccurate data with a way to identify
 inaccurate data, so it can be improved upon.

IMHO good idea. Did you check if there are already proposals to tag
this kind of datum? Of course also tags like can never make sure, that
they don't end up at some other way (someone copies the tags to
another way, some roads are combined, etc.), but they promise to have
information about the source.

  5. Should definition of default road width ever change. All narrow=*
  tagging
  will be completely useless and will have to be reevaluated from scratch.
  Actually it will be useless before that due to subjective nature of value
  assigned to tag.

yes I agree, narrow does not seem to be a appropriate tag to tag the width.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Nationnal websites

On Monday 03 August 2009 20:09:23 SLXViper wrote:
 www.openstreetmap.is and osm.is weren't mentioned as far as I could see.
 Both redirect to the normal openstreetmap.org domain.
I added them to the list

I also created a wiki page as mentioned before: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Domain_names

If there is some Filipino  on the list.
openstreetmap.org.ph seams to be your main domain name. 
www.openstreetmap.com.ph is a redirection to it, but openstreetmap.com.ph is a 
parking page.

To Belgian, Swiss, Spanish, and Japanese people : your websites are not 
reachable when tried without www.

Italian website don't work with www.

If there is some of the people concerned, please transmit to your mailing 
list.

 Btw: why do all replies go by default to osm-t...@meurisse.org instead
 of t...@openstreetmap.org?
Because your mailer don't understand what a mailing list is and the ML robot 
doesn't add a reply-to header (It does it for some other ML like legal, 
routing, merkaartor (added recently), talk-fr…)

-- 
Vincent MEURISSE

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Re: [OSM-talk] Nationnal websites

2009-08-03 Thread Simone Cortesi

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 23:11, Vincent MEURISSEosm-t...@meurisse.org wrote:
 Italian website don't work with www.

no, it does work both ways. with and without the www.

the site is just a blog right now, under the blog third level domain name.

-- 
-S

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Re: [OSM-talk] Multiple nodes for one country

2009-08-03 Thread Jon Burgess

On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 20:49 +0200, Peter Körner wrote:
 Peter Körner schrieb:
  andrzej zaborowski schrieb:
  Hi Peter,
  I don't think anybody has a reason to object to merging them.  At
  least me and User:Mala have been merging some of these nodes last
 week
  and we got no blackmail so far :)  I believe we went through all
 the
  country nodes which didn't have a name:pl= or name:it= assigned yet
 so
  out of your list at most 15 or so countries should still remain
  duplicated.
 
  Cheers
  
  The main problem is that I'm unable to produce an up-to-date list
 from 
  database since I don't have the resources to import an up-to-date
 dump.
  
  I'll try to process an up-to-date planet.osm tomorrow to generate
 an 
  up-to-date list from it. It's a pity that cassini is not updated via
 the 
  diffs right now.
  
  At the next step I'll generate a list for each wikimedia-language 
  containing all countries and their names in this language, so people
 can 
  correct the locale names more easy. It seems you've already done
 this 
  for pl and it -- I'm about to do it for de.
  
  Peter
  
 
 I threw an nearly up-to-date planet.osm against a simple 
 sax-parser-script in php and after it ran about 10 hours (such a 
 planet.osm is a really big thing) it produced this table:
 
 http://toolserver.org/~mazder/duplicate-countries/from-planet.osm/
 
 Looks much better! Still 26 countries are duplicated, but this could
 be 
 fixed manually, so I'll do that now.
 
 On some time in the near future, when cassini holds an regularly
 updated 
 gis-database we'll be able to track such duplications at 
 http://toolserver.org/~mazder/duplicate-countries/

I obtained a list of the duplicate country nodes IDs from the Mapnik
rendering DB[1] and have downloaded  fixed all the duplicates[2].


Jon


1: SQL: gis= select name,osm_id from planet_osm_point where
place='country' and name in (select name from planet_osm_point where
place='country' group by name having count(*)  1) order by name,osm_id;

2: Two changesets. The first removes those automatically fixed by the
JOSM validator. The second picks up the few remaining ones which needed
merging.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2028815
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2029180




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Re: [OSM-talk] Nationnal websites

On Monday 03 August 2009 23:33:04 Simone Cortesi wrote:
 no, it does work both ways. with and without the www.
Oups sorry for confusion. Typing domain names the whole day gave me some 
geographic troubles :) (it seems that the one not working was the Taiwanese 
one but it's working now)
-- 
Vincent MEURISSE

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Re: [OSM-talk] road width

2009-08-03 Thread Elizabeth Dodd

On Mon, 3 Aug 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 2009/8/3 Liz ed...@billiau.net:
  now i get to own up to having a flickr account ;-(
 
  these roads are all the same width legally, and the actual width depends
  on the grader driver.
 
  also none of them are dry weather only roads - so when you see that
  marker here it means there is no place to drive when its wet.
 
 
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/36563...@n07/sets/72157621806266261/

 actually none of them I would consider a residential road. They could
 be everything from primary (not probable) to track, dependant on the
 surrounding and actual use (what they link).
 usually we would think about something like this when talking about
 residential roads:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Image:Residential.jpg
 IMHO you can find them just inside inhabited areas, not in the county
 side between fields.

 cheers,
 Martin


I didn't claim they were residential roads.
These roads are the same width according to the road reserve.



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[OSM-talk] cycleroads and cyclestreets

I recently was looking at this proposal:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/cycleroad
and it seems quite reasonable to me. It is already well-hung (almost
1 year), so why don't we start voting? Who is in charge/able of
opening the voting-process? If you want to discuss about the proposal,
please use the discussion page (already some contributions):
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/cycleroad

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging roads

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 10:23 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
  Tag the width of the surface on which users of the way are expected to 
  travel.
  I agree and would like to add: and that is not constricted in the
  full usable height
 
  I think the maxheight tag should be used here.

 This should include that above this surface (I would suggest up to 4,4
 meters or up to maxheight where available) there are no obstacles,
 because otherwise literally it is not complete.

Introducing 4,4 meters is arbitrary - don't like this idea. Maxheight
is already established for this purpose. You are right, though, that
if width=y and maxheight=x, it means there is a width of y metres with
at least x metres of clearance above the surface of the way.

 it's IMHO not about complication but about completeness. And it
 doesn't matter if the obstacle is large or small, it matters if is
 removable or not.

Width tag and maxheight tag gives completeness. You don't need to mix
the meaning of the two tags together.

 But why not put the width from line to shoulder, still paved, into the
 width-tag? You are not expected to use this, but you can do.

So you think the width should be defined by what you can use? That
is not good, because it depends who you are (e.g. car, bike,
pedestrian, in a wheelchair). I believe it is against the law in
Australia, for example, to drive outside the line markings. So you
CAN'T do this.

 actually I would consider the lines part of the lanes, not of the
 road. So I would see the width between the inner border of the lines
 as lanes:width (gets more complicated with different widths of the
 lanes, but this is a general problem in OSM: currently can't model
 lanes as they are).

Well, lines are part of the lanes, and lanes form the road. So the sum
of the widths of the lanes should be about equal to the width of the
road.

 This results in a hierarchical model:
 1. entire road-construction, consisting of
 2. paved road, shoulders, beam barrier, separators, bed, 
 3. the paved roads furthermore consistentent of
 different lanes

 where each level can have it's own tags for e.g. width, surface,
 maxspeed, maxheight, maxweight, access restrictions, etc. which would
 be inherited to the sublevels if there was not the same tag overriding
 it.

Sounds good to me. But if you want to keep it simple (which is usually
the case), I still stand by my definition of width of a way: the
width of the surface on which users of the way are expected to
travel.

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Re: [OSM-talk] residential and unclassified in Australia WAS definition of the main highway-tag

On Mon, 3 Aug 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 Just for my interest: is any of you familiar with the national/local
 planning regulations for roads in your area? Maybe it would help to
 have a look if you haven't already done so.

Yes I am, you can't read them on line, and I wasn't going to pay, so I read 
them in the University library.


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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging roads

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 7:06 AM, Martin
Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 What I'm proposing is to add additional quality assurance tags. Absence of
 such tags would mean that there is no way to know how accurate data is. But
 presence of such tags would give reasonable assurance on data quality. I see
 need for two such tags: measurement method and date of data acquisition.
 So, when road width is just roughly estimated mapper would add only tag 
 width.
 When road width is actually measured, tagging would look like this:
   width=6.5
   width:method=tape
   width:date=2009-07-23
 When width is measured on aerial photography method could be aerial and date
 would be date when photography was taken, ...

 actually there is already some people using tags like source and note
 to add this kind of information. But they are few I guess.

+1 - use source:width, not width:method. It's established and
documented already. As for date, I would think the date of the
changeset, which is recorded automatically, should be sufficient.

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging roads

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 3:00 AM, Blaž Lorgerblaz.lor...@triera.net wrote:
 On Monday 03 August 2009 12:18:14 Emilie Laffray wrote:
 Yes, 1 meter is 1 meter. That's why using an approximation is actually
 worse than using a relative factor. Using a precise number is going to
 introduce errors that can be quite bad in the end. I strongly oppose any
 tags that is using a measurement that WILL NOT be accurate. Height is fine
 because it is defined. Relative parameters are more flexible.

This makes no sense. It's not good to be flexible in this situation.
Please read http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability -
particularly the example on height=*

Note that verifiability is not the same as precision.

Use source:width=approx, or something like that to indicate how
precise your measurement is.

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Re: [OSM-talk] definition of the main highway-tag

2009/8/4 Liz ed...@billiau.net:
 On Mon, 3 Aug 2009, Elena of Valhalla wrote:
   So is it really a big change for Germany and Italy to
  define the highway tag as the administrative classification of the road?
 As Martin already said, yes, it would be a big change, and it would
 become quite meaningless (I speak about Italy, don't know about
 Germany)

 At least in Italy, the law states that the importance of a road
 defines its administrative status, and this in turn decided who is
 going to maintain it: if it was like this it would be great for OSM.

 this makes a fascinating problem the organised germanic heirarchiacal system
 vs the romantic italianate system

no, there is no versus, it is exactly the same issue in Germany and
Italy, as Elena pointed out: we can't go by administrative classes,
for similar reasons. To give you an example, look at the comunal road
K 9652. User:Tirkon posted this illustrated example of how this
comunal road changes along it's way from unclassified to trunk - and
keeps it's administrative classification (Kreisstraße - traditionally
a tertiary road) all the way (it's all the same road):

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php?title=DE:Tag:highway%3Dtrunk#Beispiele

 i believe that i map what i see on the ground

that's what we all do - for certain things. Others, you can't see and
you must collect the information by different means. E.g. you don't
see administrative borders - but we agree that we want to have them in
OSM. Do you see importance on the ground? I'm not sure, but you see
it in the context.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging roads

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Martin
Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 yes, you're right, 4,40 m was indeed wrong. In the EU it is 4,50 m.
 That's the general maxheight (the clearance streets must have),
 resulting from 4,00 maxheight for the vehicle plus 50 cm clearance.
 This might differ on other continents. This could be the default, so
 we don't have to post a maxheight on all streets that don't have
 signs. Just in case the clearance is below 4,50 there will be a
 maxheight-sign.

In my opinion, this has nothing to do with width=*. But you're free to
disagree, of course.

 I want to make it clear in the width-definition which height must be
 available. Otherwise there will be confusion in some cases.

An example might help.

 In Germany it depends. If you are a car, you must not use [ the width from 
 line to shoulder],
 if you are a bike or pedestrian and outside town, you should use it if there
 is no cycleway (or footway for pedestrians). If you are planning a
 special transport, you will be interested in this data. If you drive a
 car, you won't need this data, because you can be sure that you will
 fit on a street.
...
 my proposal would result in width=lanes+marginal strip. Marginal strip
 is not where you are expected to travel but it is a elemental part of
 the road. For sidewalks I'm unsure. maybe it's better to have a
 width:total where they are included and in normal simple width they
 aren't.

In my opinion, marginal strip and elemental part of the road is a
little tricky to define for all kinds of ways. And width:total seems
strange to me at first glance. Why isn't width = width:total?

There we have it, my definition and your definition. The floor's open...

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging roads

2009/8/4 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com:
 In my opinion, marginal strip and elemental part of the road is a
 little tricky to define for all kinds of ways.

yes, that's surely for streets only, small ways won't have this to be tagged.

 And width:total seems
 strange to me at first glance. Why isn't width = width:total?

well, I'd separate width (for width of the drivable street) from a
total width that could include sidewalks/pavements, shoulders,
parkinglots, etc.
I wouldn't put pavements into the same width as the lanes for driving.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] road width


--- On Mon, 3/8/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

 actually none of them I would consider a residential road.
 They could
 be everything from primary (not probable) to track,
 dependant on the
 surrounding and actual use (what they link).
 usually we would think about something like this when
 talking about
 residential roads:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Image:Residential.jpg
 IMHO you can find them just inside inhabited areas, not in
 the county
 side between fields.

There is a national highway that circumnavigates Australia, changes names along 
the way and is something like 25,000km long, I believe it turns into a road 
something like that at some point in its journey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_1_(Australia)

THe pictures Liz took are common in rural areas where they can't afford to seal 
the road, some are tertiary in importance, others mostly get tagged 
unclassified.


  

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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering


--- On Mon, 3/8/09, James Livingston doc...@mac.com wrote:

 Ah, for some reason searching for bbq on the wiki doesn't
 find that. Weird.
 
 If we're going to use bbq, I'll change some of the ones
 that I have done over, and add fuel=

Wikimedia wiki search is a bit hit and miss, I just search on the map features 
page itself. 


  

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Re: [talk-au] newbie Potlatch question

2009-08-03 Thread jhen

Thanks Jeff and Ross.

I'm using Fedora 10 Linux on a 1000H EeePC, and I've already had a go at 
installing josm.  But It isn't clear to me yet just which Java package(s) I 
need to install first.  I'm working on that in slow-time.

I've got Merkaartor installed, but I'm far from confident with it.  So far, 
it's not clear to I'm doing when I try to use it.

I've also previously had a go at fudging waypoints into gpx files, but OSM 
didn't like them.

So I've spent quite a bit of time on this before I asked.

That trick with the L key will do nicely for the time being.  Much 
appreciated.

John

--- On Mon, 3/8/09, Jeff Price jeff.pr...@rocketmail.com wrote:Welcome 
aboard,  I tend to use josm but could suggest this for PotLatch,

Use the 'L' key to have PotLatch show the lat/long of the mouse position.

Export/import your waypoints into OSM like you do the track logs, then use the 
'L' key to cross match the PotLatch gpx dots to your waypoints.  (alternatively 
if OSM doesn't like the waypoint gpx format, you can manually enter them into 
an old gpx trace and retry the upload into OSM)

There's a heap of info here too
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Upload_Waypoints



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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering


--- On Mon, 3/8/09, Darrin Smith bel...@beldin.org wrote:

 That's a given for any 2 people.
 However how the same thing is store in OSM in 2 different
 areas is
 the same. And that is what we are talking about here.

Ok, to do this objectively we could either mark an area as a different 
admin_level based on population of each boundary, or store the actual 
population of a boundary as of the last census, either way we'd be able to 
differentiate the areas.

Alternatively who said we only have to have one set of map tiles, we can have 
10 different map styles for all it matters, I just need to tweak things on the 
server for different host names for different tile sets.

The javascript already has the ability to use different map styles as well so 
it should be pretty trivial to do both things we want :)


 By represented I meant in the OSM data. The underlying
 data should be 
 consistent.

To do this objectively we just need to stipulate the population then we can 
achieve the same result I'm after by suggesting subjective methods.

 These areas are of the same importance, they are the
 geographical name 
 divisions that lie within post codes.

The importance of various bits of map info is subjective and what's important 
to you isn't important to me, but that's irrelevant since we can do 2 sets of 
map tiles to please us both with different style sheets.

The mapnik style sheets cascade, similar to css, so it will be trivial to do 2 
similar style sheets covering admin boundaries and a main style sheet with the 
same features we both want.

 They are not a point, they are a named area, documented in
 the states 
 naming registry and everyone who lives in those areas lives
 in that 
 named location.

Naming them as localities would then make them show the name, I hate how the 
boundaries name shows up on a map even if there is a place marker.

 Yes, that's been talked about before, they're the best
 we've got now, we 
 fix them up when we know more about them.

 Please read what I am saying. I did not say Not all the
 ABS data has 
 names I said the ABS data doesn't have all the names.
 There are even 
 more of these names in existance than the ABS data would
 lead you to 
 believe.

Sorry I meant for all the boundaries I've inspected they seem to be named, I 
didn't mean to imply they all have names, but just based on what I've seen 
they've been named.
 
 I you really want them accurate you still need to survey,

I wasn't suggesting otherwise, however in a lot of administrative boundaries 
unless you know where the boundary is due to living on them or being in council 
you won't know where they are to fix them.

 I've found 
 plenty of cases where ABS data doesn't match exactly what's
 on the 
 ground. But it's a darn sight better than what has existed
 before.

Ditto for various reasons.

PS the maccas at nambour now has free wifi, it wasn't last time I was here.


  

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Re: [talk-au] Bush walking tracks

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Ian Sergeantiserg...@hih.com.au wrote:
 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote on 03/08/2009 03:06:38 PM:

 Calling a bush walking track a designated footpath doesn't sound
 exactly right, nor does calling a bushwalker a pedestrian.

 Thoughts?

 We should focus on the properties of the track, rather than its use.
 Plenty of people use bush tracks for their morning commute, and the
 recreational nature of some of these tracks shouldn't make us tag them any
 differently.

 Tag what is on the ground, and pedestrians, bushwalkers, or anyone else can
 decide if they are suitable for their purpose.

Absolutely agree. I looked at the photos and descriptions on the wiki
pages, and highway=path seemed to match more closely the properties of
bush walking tracks, than highway=footway. What do you think the
guideline should be?

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Re: [talk-au] newbie Potlatch question


--- On Mon, 3/8/09, j...@talk21.com j...@talk21.com wrote:

 I'm using Fedora 10 Linux on a 1000H EeePC, and
 I've already had a go at installing josm.  But It
 isn't clear to me yet just which Java package(s) I need
 to install first.  I'm working on that in
 slow-time.

It's the normal sun-jre, josm doesn't work at all with open-jre, not sure if 
they fixed the code to be more compatible or not since I last tried it.

The benefit of JOSM etc is they are offline editors and you don't loose changes 
if you loose connectivity, JOSM also has a live GPS plugin to map your path 
directly on it, I use it on a 7 eeePC and works great, I'm slowly getting used 
to the smaller keyboard/touchpad.


  

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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering




--- On Mon, 3/8/09, Darrin Smith bel...@beldin.org wrote:

 You can do this I guess it's a matter of rendering. I think
 this
 discussion has highlighted an underlying issue that is
 beyond the
 rendering issue however. The underlying issue is that you
 don't consider
   administratively equal a suburb and a rural named
 area despite the
 fact that the various state governments and australia post
 do.

Australia post doesn't necessarily follow that, Gympie has a number of areas 
inside the town limits but all mail is addressed as Gympie, eg South Side, 
Corella, Araluen, Monkland, are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. 
Even Australia post has to bend to the perceptions of the locals regardless of 
what's gazetted, either that or Auspost has a later version of gazetted data 
than the ABS released.

 Yeah this is a bit of a pain when you get duplicates in
 particular.
 Really a renderer specific problem however. I liked the
 idea that
 surfaced a while back of optionally being able to specify a
 'centre' to
 a boundary relation which should be where the name is
 rendered and only
 rendering it centrally if that is absent. Don't think it's
 made it into
 the renders though.

If one of us can figure it out, we can render it. :)


  

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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering

John Smith wrote:
 You can do this I guess it's a matter of rendering. I think
 this
 discussion has highlighted an underlying issue that is
 beyond the
 rendering issue however. The underlying issue is that you
 don't consider
   administratively equal a suburb and a rural named
 area despite the
 fact that the various state governments and australia post
 do.
 
 Australia post doesn't necessarily follow that, Gympie has a number of areas 
 inside the town limits but all mail is addressed as Gympie, eg South Side, 
 Corella, Araluen, Monkland, are the ones I can think of off the top of my 
 head. Even Australia post has to bend to the perceptions of the locals 
 regardless of what's gazetted, either that or Auspost has a later version of 
 gazetted data than the ABS released.

All but 'South Side' are listed on the Australia post site as valid 
postal areas in postcode 4570 as an equal category to Gympie.

 Yeah this is a bit of a pain when you get duplicates in
 particular.
 Really a renderer specific problem however. I liked the
 idea that
 surfaced a while back of optionally being able to specify a
 'centre' to
 a boundary relation which should be where the name is
 rendered and only
 rendering it centrally if that is absent. Don't think it's
 made it into
 the renders though.
 
 If one of us can figure it out, we can render it. :)

Yeah well, that I'd be all in favour of seeing done :D

Darrin

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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering

On Mon, 3 Aug 2009, Darrin Smith wrote:
  What about the 90% of Australia that isn't metro areas and these
  boundaries are all over the place and don't line up with towns,

 They still provide general enough information to be useful.
 That same 90% also has a large number of source=landsat (or similar)
 roads on them, which aren't very accurate either, perhaps we could
 remove them also since they're just clogging things up? ;)

  they're usually smaller or larger depending if the town grew

 So they need 'fixing' this doesn't make them invalid.

they are not lined up with reality in our area
and I haven't actually got time to move Lake Wyangan ('locality', not the 
water) back where it belongs
but the ABS has let it and Bilbul take over Beelbangera
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-34.2533lon=146.0973zoom=14layers=B000FTF




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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering

On Mon, 3 Aug 2009 19:14:46 +1000
Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote:

 On Mon, 3 Aug 2009, Darrin Smith wrote:
   What about the 90% of Australia that isn't metro areas and these
   boundaries are all over the place and don't line up with towns,
 
  They still provide general enough information to be useful.
  That same 90% also has a large number of source=landsat (or similar)
  roads on them, which aren't very accurate either, perhaps we could
  remove them also since they're just clogging things up? ;)
 
   they're usually smaller or larger depending if the town grew
 
  So they need 'fixing' this doesn't make them invalid.
 
 they are not lined up with reality in our area
 and I haven't actually got time to move Lake Wyangan ('locality', not
 the water) back where it belongs
 but the ABS has let it and Bilbul take over Beelbangera
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-34.2533lon=146.0973zoom=14layers=B000FTF

Not sure what your point here is Liz apart from interesting information?

Although it does back up what I was saying about the ABS begin
incomplete not having every designated place - I assume Beelbangera
doesn't even exist in the ABS data?

Still it seems to have the 2 places you mention in vaguely the right
place (Not in Queensland for example ;) so as always it's better than a
void.

-- 

=b

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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering

On Mon, 3 Aug 2009, Darrin Smith wrote:
 Not sure what your point here is Liz apart from interesting information?

 Although it does back up what I was saying about the ABS begin
 incomplete not having every designated place - I assume Beelbangera
 doesn't even exist in the ABS data?

 Still it seems to have the 2 places you mention in vaguely the right
 place (Not in Queensland for example ;) so as always it's better than a
 void.
the information is useless here for suburb / village boundaries.



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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering

On Mon, 3 Aug 2009 19:59:48 +1000
Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote:

 On Mon, 3 Aug 2009, Darrin Smith wrote:
  Not sure what your point here is Liz apart from interesting
  information?
 
  Although it does back up what I was saying about the ABS begin
  incomplete not having every designated place - I assume Beelbangera
  doesn't even exist in the ABS data?
 
  Still it seems to have the 2 places you mention in vaguely the right
  place (Not in Queensland for example ;) so as always it's better
  than a void.
 the information is useless here for suburb / village boundaries.

But until someone has the time to fix it, it will provide someone who
doesn't know the area well enough information to be in approximately
the right place (same as most landsat traced roads are for example). I
can't actually find anywhere else to compare that boundary to so for
all I know it's accurate anyway :)

-- 

=b

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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering

On Mon, 3 Aug 2009 20:50:22 +1000
Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote:

 On Mon, 3 Aug 2009, Darrin Smith wrote:
  But until someone has the time to fix it, it will provide someone
  who doesn't know the area well enough information to be in
  approximately the right place (same as most landsat traced roads
  are for example). I can't actually find anywhere else to compare
  that boundary to so for all I know it's accurate anyway :)
 no, the place name information would be more accurate.
 that would at least get you to the post office for the area

Lucky someone put the time into that then isn't it.

Lucky that's the case for every other locality in Australia...
oh wait, it isn't!

-- 

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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering


Ok, with a pointer from the dev list I now have 2 tile style sheets set up, one 
shows admin_level=10 for darrin, and the other doesn't...

http://maps.bigtincan.com/?zoom=13lat=-28.31773lon=152.88587layers=0B

You can actually use these tiles in other apps if you can config the URL, 
http://tiles.bigtincan.com/darrin/ or http://tiles.bigtincan.com/john/

Just putting the URLs in a browser will show a 404 image, the app needs to 
convert lat/lon/zoom into z/x/y.png type URLs.


  

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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering


Apart from highway shields looking different, park benches, getting rid of 
boundary names from being rendered if a centre place exists, is there anything 
else needing to be done to make the map tiles look more aussie like?


  

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[talk-au] Cautionary tale for editing ABS ways

2009-08-03 Thread James Livingston

Hi all,

As I've just discovered, you need to have some care when editing  
anything that causes a change to a way with over 2000 nodes (e.g. a  
lot of the ABS boundaries).

NEVER under any circumstances let anything happen to you editor during  
the upload. You can't let JOSM crash, have network troubles while  
uploading from Potlatch or similar - pbviously you can't control that,  
but you're not allowed to let it happen anyway.


The problem stems from the fact that you can no longer add or modify  
ways to have 2k nodes, you need to split them in pieces. In my case I  
did something that would modify an ABS boundary so split it in half,  
but then something happened and my upload got stopped half way through  
splitting the way. The result is that the half staying in the existing  
way got kept, but the half being put into a new way didn't get added.

Unfortunately I can't just revert the way to get it back, because it's  
too large to re-save. You also can't revert the way and split it  
before saving because Potlatch doesn't support that, due to the  
process required being insanely complicated and it only being useful  
if you want to revert a 2k node way. As far as I can tell, JOSM  
doesn't support reverting ways and it wouldn't be likely to support  
this either.


So now I get to go and extract the old way from dumps and then re- 
upload it as a now way. You have been warned.

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Re: [talk-au] JOSM AU translation




--- On Mon, 3/8/09, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote:

 Ignoring malformed URL: {0}     wrong
 bloody address

Someone, somewhere other than an aussie, kiwi or pom will come across that and 
wonder where all the blood come from to be on the URL :)


  

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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering




--- On Mon, 3/8/09, b.schulz...@scu.edu.au b.schulz...@scu.edu.au wrote:

 surface=unpaved and 4WD only :).

The strange thing is, there was a bunch of highway=unsurfaced checks, I have no 
idea why they were never migrated across to surface=unpaved, updated.


  

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[talk-au] Trivia - Husband and Wife Team

2009-08-03 Thread Nick Hocking

Apart from Victoria and Albert does anyone know of an example where 

A Husband and Wife have both had roads named after them and that these roads
intersect.

PS - I know of one such example.


Nick
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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering


Every change I've made so far makes the roads go very whacky


  

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Re: [talk-au] Trivia - Husband and Wife Team




--- On Mon, 3/8/09, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com wrote:

 Apart from Victoria and Albert
 does anyone know of an example where 
  
 A Husband and Wife have both had roads named after
 them and that these roads intersect.

Ummm does George street in Sydney count? It intersects with a lot of other 
streets...


  

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Re: [talk-au] Cautionary tale for editing ABS ways

On Mon, 3 Aug 2009, James Livingston wrote:
 So now I get to go and extract the old way from dumps and then re-
 upload it as a now way. You have been warned.
I've left a broken one on western NSW
I know where it is, and I'll fix it one day
preferably when the server side of things is improved, as there are others 
having trouble too


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[talk-au] road widths in australia

just information gathering away from that going-nowhere conversation on main 
talk

(does not deal with any issue concerned with the value of mapping a road 
width, nor how)

After about 1870 roads surveyed to 1 chain width
earlier roads, travelling stock routes, main roads and roads forming shire 
boundaries, wider than one chain, no examples of specification found


2 chains width
(Bundaberg)
Bourbong Street was gazetted two chains wide allowing ample room for two way 
traffic and centre plantings on the road reserve.

(WA)
First constructed in 1927, the reserve for the two-chain-wide Great Northern 
Highway , road no. 8576, 

undated RTA (NSW) material describing a 30m road reserve width, 
www.rta.nsw.gov.au/.../xsections/md.typical_sections_100.pdf


but this document summarising some research gives more useful information
http://www.arrb.com.au/documents/RiskReporter/RiskReporterIssue4.pdf

• Crash rates have been found to decrease with increases
  in total seal width up to widths of 10 to 11 m. The effect
  of adding width to a sealed shoulder or to a lane is
  similar, although, crash risk is likely to increase on wide
  shoulders ( 2.5 m).
• On rural two-lane highways the crash risk reduces
  substantially with increasing lane width up to 3.6 m
  but is likely to increase on wider lanes.
• Lane width has only a small effect on crash rates for
  urban arterial roads within the range of normal lane
  widths (2.75 m to 3.75 m).
• On urban arterial roads the provision for right turning
  vehicles to stand clear of through traffic substantially
  reduces crash risk; the density of access and type of
  abutting development can substantially affect crash risk.
• Guidance typically identifies the benefits from the
  provision of roadside clear zones with a width of up to
  9 m. However, additional benefits can be gained with
  clear zones of up to 13 m and beyond, especially in high
  speed environments.


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Re: [talk-au] Bush walking tracks

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Stephen Hopeslh...@gmail.com wrote:
 Check the dates on the Wiki pages.  The whole highway=path thing is
 relatively recent - it may well be that the Australian Wiki advice was
 written before it existed.

Maybe. But the question remains.

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Re: [talk-au] Bush walking tracks

On Tue, 4 Aug 2009, Roy Wallace wrote:
 On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Stephen Hopeslh...@gmail.com wrote:
  Check the dates on the Wiki pages.  The whole highway=path thing is
  relatively recent - it may well be that the Australian Wiki advice was
  written before it existed.

 Maybe. But the question remains.
Absolutely
10 march 2008 the highway=path is invented on the wiki
8 Jan 2008 highway=footway is invented on the wiki
australian stuff is dated from 2007


according to the current usage, it looks like highway=path would be more 
appropriate


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Re: [talk-au] Bush walking tracks

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Lized...@billiau.net wrote:
 On Tue, 4 Aug 2009, Roy Wallace wrote:
 On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Stephen Hopeslh...@gmail.com wrote:
  Check the dates on the Wiki pages.  The whole highway=path thing is
  relatively recent - it may well be that the Australian Wiki advice was
  written before it existed.

 Maybe. But the question remains.
 Absolutely
 10 march 2008 the highway=path is invented on the wiki
 8 Jan 2008 highway=footway is invented on the wiki
 australian stuff is dated from 2007


 according to the current usage, it looks like highway=path would be more
 appropriate

Thank you. Unless there's any objections, I'll update the Australian wiki page.

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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering


I found a SVG version of a highway shield, at least national, on wikipedia, I 
should hunt through their image library some more and they might have other 
useful icons that we'd be able to use to improve map rendering...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Australian_National_Highway.svg


  

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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering


Are national highways marked differently than other highways at all?

The reason I ask is different highways get different shields, and the national 
highway network is the only one with a green shield with the word national at 
the top.

Someone has put a meticulous list together, half with pictures of what the 
shields look like on signs even, on what is what here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Australia


  

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Re: [talk-au] Trivia - Husband and Wife Team


--- On Mon, 3/8/09, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com wrote:

 On another topic - close to these two roads is Heanke
 Street which is named after Helen Haenke.
 I've tagged it Heanke Street since that is what is on
 all the street signs but it should be Haenke Street.
 I've included tag of alt_name = Haenke Street so
 that hopefully search code will find the match.

Did you file a bug report with the council? :)


  

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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Australia

Actually shields and so forth is a little bit all over the place, the shield 
shown depends not only on the highway type, or if it receives federal funding, 
but also proximity to a major metro area.

Can anyone suggest a good way to know what highway should be given what 
shield based on the current data OSM has?


  

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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering



 Can anyone suggest a good way to know what highway should
 be given what shield based on the current data OSM has?

I should have mentioned the wiki page on tips for aussies doesn't help...

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Route_Numbers

Maybe I'm misremembering/going crazy, I'm not sure, but I thought the Bruce 
highway north of Cooroy is A1, but is in a national highway shield. South of 
Cooroy it's M1 and also in a national highway shield.


  

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Re: [talk-au] newbie Potlatch question

2009-08-03 Thread jhen

Thanks.  I've now installed Sun JRE.

But JOSM doesn't work for me.  A JOSM screen comes up, sometimes with a menu 
bar at the top, and sometimes not.  Which ever it is, it doesn't respond to 
clicks or keystrokes and has to be aborted (not responding).

Luckily, JOSM-WebStart ( http://josm.openstreetmap.de/download/josm.jnlp ) does 
work.  So that's a giant leap forwards for today.

--- On Mon, 3/8/09, John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:
It's the normal sun-jre, josm doesn't work at all with open-jre, not sure if 
they fixed the code to be more compatible or not since I last tried it.

The benefit of JOSM etc is they are offline editors and you don't loose changes 
if you loose connectivity, JOSM also has a live GPS plugin to map your path 
directly on it, I use it on a 7 eeePC and works great, I'm slowly getting used 
to the smaller keyboard/touchpad.



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Re: [talk-au] Australian Rendering




--- On Tue, 4/8/09, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote:

 i agree
 i think that is a bad bit
 it comes from using one tag to do the work of two tags

In any case I've hacked together something, the shields seem a little on the 
large side of things so will probably make them smaller, but this is a first 
attempt kind of thing that actually works with the existing data.

http://maps.bigtincan.com/?zoom=11lat=-33.86391lon=151.09854layers=B0


  

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[talk-au] Hema Navigator, On Off Road GPS

http://hemanavigator.com.au/

I was looking at getting a wall map of Australia for work and look what I 
found.
Really interesting device.


-- 
You will outgrow your usefulness.


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Re: [Talk-de] Wie Stadtteilgrenzen taggen?

2009-08-03 Thread marcus.wolschon

On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 02:48:16 +0200, Matthias Versen s...@mversen.de
wrote:

 2. place=suburb als Fläche
 
 Normalerweise wird das place Tag nur für eine Nide genommen der die 
 jeweilige Mitte des Gebietes ist.

Dieses Aussage ist nicht korrekt.
Ein Polygon ist hier durchaus üblich und gerne gesehen.
Benutze ich z.B. gerne für die Adresssuche in meinem Navi.
Relationen werden dabei noch garnicht unterstützt.

 Gibt es weitere? Ich möchte natürlich, dass die Grenzen auch für die
 Standardkarte gerendert werden. Ist das für beide tags der Fall?
 
 Eine Boundary-Linie wird in mapnik gerendert, ein Place Tag als Node 
 auch (es erscheint der Name), ein place Tag für eine Fläche wird glaube

 ich nicht gerendert bzw. würde mich wundern.

Seid wann ist wird von XYZ gerendert ein Kriterium?


Marcus

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Re: [Talk-de] Wie Stadtteilgrenzen taggen?

Jens Herrmann o...@bikelab.org wrote:

wer kann mir sagen wie Stadtteilgrenzen getaggt werden?

Vorsicht, das könnte ein rechtliches Problem sein, aber dazu weiter
unten. Zunächst einmal müsste man erst einmal den Begriff Stadtteil
definieren. 

1) Da gibt es erstmal solche, die einen Ortsbürgerneister oder
Vorsteher haben. 
2) Es gibt eine offizielle Unterteilung der Stadt (oder Gemeinde), die
für die so festgelegten Stadtteile die Statistiken getrennt erfasst.
3) Es gibt solche Stadtteile, deren Namen sich in der Bevölkerung, in
der Presse und in Ämtern und Politik eingebürgert haben, für die aber
die oben erwähnte Statistik nicht geführt wird. 

Daher müsste man zunächst einmal definieren, wie diese
unterschiedlichen Unterteilungen in der Daternbank deutlich gemacht
werden können. 

Nun zur Ermittlung der Grenzen der Stadtteile/Ortsteile. Wie will man
diese erfassen? Es gibt schließlich keine Grenzmarkierungen.

Ohne die lizenzrechtliche Frage zu diskutieren, stellt sich bei der
Ermittlung der Grenzen der Stadtteile das Problem, dass selbst in
Städten (und erst recht in Gemeinden) eine genaue Grenzlinie der
Stadtteile niemals amtlich gezeichnet wurde. Wenn man Glück hat, gibt
es allerdings ein nach Stadtteilen getrenntes Straßenverzeichnis,
womit man eine ungefähre aber keinesfalls verbindliche Grenze
festlegen kann. Die IMHO einzig verbindliche Methode wäre es, beim
Katasteramt eine Karte mit den Gemarkungen anfertigen zu lassen. Das
kostet aber. 

Hat man so die Grenzen ermittelt, stellt sich aber die Frage, ob wir
die so ermittelten Daten überhaupt bei Openstreetmap nutzen können.
Das wage ich nämlich schwer zu bezweifeln.


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Re: [Talk-de] All in one Germany - Straßennamen nicht mehr lesbar

2009-08-03 Thread Christoph Wagner

Sven Geggus schrieb:
 Christoph Wagner freemaps@googlemail.com wrote:
 
 Und vor allem warum es jetzt nicht mehr geht! Weiß da irgendjemand mehr?
 
 Ich hab mir mal svn log angesehen:
 
 
 r1071 | steve | 2009-07-02 00:00:02 +0200 (Do, 02. Jul 2009) | 6
 lines
 
 Don't upper case in the generic layer.
 
 The requirement for labels to be in upper case is a feature of the
 img format and so is done there (or not if you have the --lower-case
 flag set).
 
 The lower case flag will now have an effect.
 
 Welche Version war denn da vorher am laufen?
 

Das selbe hab ich auch gerade entdeckt gehabt. Vorher war die 1067 am
laufen, also so weit ist das dann klar.

Das heißt jetzt also im Klartext die lower-case Option funktioniert
nicht, da die meisten Geräte das nicht können.
Hmm

Na dann halt nicht.

Grüße
Christoph




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Re: [Talk-de] Wie Stadtteilgrenzen taggen?

Tirkon tirko...@yahoo.de wrote:

Jens Herrmann o...@bikelab.org wrote:

wer kann mir sagen wie Stadtteilgrenzen getaggt werden?

Vorsicht, das könnte ein rechtliches Problem sein, aber dazu weiter
unten. Zunächst einmal müsste man erst einmal den Begriff Stadtteil
definieren. 

1) Da gibt es erstmal solche, die einen Ortsbürgerneister oder
Vorsteher haben. 
2) Es gibt eine offizielle Unterteilung der Stadt (oder Gemeinde), die
für die so festgelegten Stadtteile die Statistiken getrennt erfasst.
3) Es gibt solche Stadtteile, deren Namen sich in der Bevölkerung, in
der Presse und in Ämtern und Politik eingebürgert haben, für die aber
die oben erwähnte Statistik nicht geführt wird. 
Nachtrag
4) Es gibt die Unterteilung, wie sie auf Ortseingangstafeln bzw
Unterrichtungstafeln zu lesen ist. Diese können eine gemischte Auswahl
aus den oben drei angegebenen Punkten darstellen.

Daher müsste man zunächst einmal definieren, wie diese
unterschiedlichen Unterteilungen in der Daternbank deutlich gemacht
werden können. 

Nun zur Ermittlung der Grenzen der Stadtteile/Ortsteile. Wie will man
diese erfassen? Es gibt schließlich keine Grenzmarkierungen.

Ohne die lizenzrechtliche Frage zu diskutieren, stellt sich bei der
Ermittlung der Grenzen der Stadtteile das Problem, dass selbst in
Städten (und erst recht in Gemeinden) eine genaue Grenzlinie der
Stadtteile niemals amtlich gezeichnet wurde. Wenn man Glück hat, gibt
es allerdings ein nach Stadtteilen getrenntes Straßenverzeichnis,
womit man eine ungefähre aber keinesfalls verbindliche Grenze
festlegen kann. Die IMHO einzig verbindliche Methode wäre es, beim
Katasteramt eine Karte mit den Gemarkungen anfertigen zu lassen. Das
kostet aber. 

Hat man so die Grenzen ermittelt, stellt sich aber die Frage, ob wir
die so ermittelten Daten überhaupt bei Openstreetmap nutzen können.
Das wage ich nämlich schwer zu bezweifeln.


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Re: [Talk-de] Wie Stadtteilgrenzen taggen?

2009-08-03 Thread Sven Anders


 Daher müsste man zunächst einmal definieren, wie diese
 unterschiedlichen Unterteilungen in der Daternbank deutlich gemacht
 werden können.

 Nun zur Ermittlung der Grenzen der Stadtteile/Ortsteile. Wie will man
 diese erfassen? Es gibt schließlich keine Grenzmarkierungen.

 Ohne die lizenzrechtliche Frage zu diskutieren, stellt sich bei der
 Ermittlung der Grenzen der Stadtteile das Problem, dass selbst in
 Städten (und erst recht in Gemeinden) eine genaue Grenzlinie der
 Stadtteile niemals amtlich gezeichnet wurde. Wenn man Glück hat, gibt
 es allerdings ein nach Stadtteilen getrenntes Straßenverzeichnis,
 womit man eine ungefähre aber keinesfalls verbindliche Grenze
 festlegen kann. Die IMHO einzig verbindliche Methode wäre es, beim
 Katasteramt eine Karte mit den Gemarkungen anfertigen zu lassen. Das
 kostet aber.

 Hat man so die Grenzen ermittelt, stellt sich aber die Frage, ob wir
 die so ermittelten Daten überhaupt bei Openstreetmap nutzen können.
 Das wage ich nämlich schwer zu bezweifeln.

Also in Hamburg gibt es Grenzbeschreibungen der Stadtteile. Diese werden im 
Amtlichen Anzeiger veröffentlicht und sind damit IMHO gemeinfrei.

Die Beschreibungen sind unterschiedlich gut zu gebrauchen. Im Bestenfall nach 
folgenden Strickmuster:  Die Grenze verläuft in der Mitte  der 
Straße Hauptstraße bis zur Straße An der Alster. Im ungümstigsten 
Fall:  Die Stadtteilgrenze zwischen Hausbruch und Moorburg entspricht der 
alten Gemeinde Grenze von Hausbruch und Moorburg.

Ich würde den Hund mal im Dorf lassen. 

Stadtteilgrenzen unter Uhrheberrechtsschutz zu stellen ist IMHO Unfug.  Stell 
dir mal vor was das für eine Presse gebe wenn die Stadt Hamburg einen OSM 
Mapper verglagt, weil er Stadtteilgrenzen abgemalt hat. Die Stadtteilgrenzen 
sind IMHO immer sowas wie eine Verordnung an ihr werden ja auch bestimmte 
Entscheidungen  festgemacht wie z.B. welcher Gerichtsvollzieher zuständig ist 
etc. Wenn es mir als Bürger nicht möglich ist den Grenzverlauf  anhand von 
kostenlosen Quellen nachzuvollziehen (und auch darüber zu diskutieren/ das 
wiederzugeben) verstößt das in meinen  Augen gegen den Grundsatz das es keine 
Entscheidungen ohne einsehbares Gesetz geben darf (den Grundsatz gibt es IMHO 
sogar schon seit den Römern).

Trotzdem gibt es natürlich ganz viel Angst bei den Katasterämtern das Ihnen 
eine Einahmequelle wegbricht, wenn sie solche Daten kostenlos rausrücken 
müssten.

BTW:  Ich denke immmer noch darüber nach mal die Grundsteuer nicht zu 
beazhelen. Ich behaupte mal mein Grundstück für das ich Grundsteuern zahlen 
soll liegt in Niedersachen. [Hintergrund: Ich hab bislang keine 
Grenzbeschreibung für die Grennze zwischen HH und NDS gefunden und denke auch 
nicht das mir jemand stichhaltig beweisen kann das mein Grundstück in Hamburg 
liegt ;-) ]

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Re: [Talk-de] Spuren anonymisieren?

2009-08-03 Thread geo.osm

Mirko Küster schrieb:
 Einfach irgendwas annhemen und lustig verschieben ist ehrlich gesagt für die 
 Tonne. Hat bei mir in der Ecke diese Woche auch einer gemeint. Nach dessen 
 toller Bearbeitung kratze die Uferstraße schon im Wasser und aus S Kurven 
 wurden auf einmal Z Kurven. Hätte nur fragen brauchen, hätte von mir Bilder 
 zur Bestätigung haben können. Aber warum anmailen, wenn man doch mit dem 
 Made in Taiwan GPS schöne Z Kurven aufgenommen hat und alles nochmal schön 
 verschieben kann. Glaube mir, das gibt nach Sichtung erstmal eine schöne 
 Krawatte am anderen Ende der Leitung. Denn sowas wieder zu berichtigen ist 
 überflüssige Mehrarbeit. Zeit in der man weiße Löcher vervollständigen 
 könnte.
   
wollte mich ja nicht mehr äußern. Finde aber den Vorschlag von Martin 
sehr sinnvoll. Das wenn man keine tracks hochladen möchte ein 
entsprechender tag gesetzt wird.

-- 
schönen Gruß
 Alex

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Re: [Talk-de] Wie Stadtteilgrenzen taggen?

Sven Anders s...@anders-hamburg.de wrote:

Stadtteilgrenzen unter Uhrheberrechtsschutz zu stellen ist IMHO Unfug.

Im Grunde gebe ich Dir Recht. Aber ich sehe das mal analog zu der
Erfassung der ÖPNV Routen und Haltestellen, wo es uns auch nicht
gestattet ist, diese auf Grundlage der Veröffentlichungen der
Verkehrsbetriebe zu erstellen.


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Re: [Talk-de] Wie Stadtteilgrenzen taggen?

2009-08-03 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hallo,

Sven Anders wrote:
 Stadtteilgrenzen unter Uhrheberrechtsschutz zu stellen ist IMHO Unfug.  Stell 
 dir mal vor was das für eine Presse gebe wenn die Stadt Hamburg einen OSM 
 Mapper verglagt, weil er Stadtteilgrenzen abgemalt hat. 

Denke ich auch.

Das Projekt verfolgt zwar generell die im Zweifel lieber bleiben 
lassen-Linie, aber ich finde, irgendwo hat der vorauseilende 
Copyright-Gehorsam auch seine Grenzen. So ein bisschen Limits austesten 
muessen wir schon. Wir machen hier etwas, was noch nie jemand zuvor 
gemacht hat, eine Rechtssicherheit gibt es nicht, und wenn wir allzu 
zaghaft sind, dann schaffen/zementieren wir damit eventuell einen 
Zustand, den wir selbst nicht wollen.

Im Zweifel wuerde ich es drauf ankommen lassen, dass die Stadt mir einen 
boesen Brief schreibt - dann kann ich die Grenze immer noch loeschen und 
den Brief auf meine Webseite tun.

 Die Stadtteilgrenzen 
 sind IMHO immer sowas wie eine Verordnung an ihr werden ja auch bestimmte 
 Entscheidungen  festgemacht wie z.B. welcher Gerichtsvollzieher zuständig ist 
 etc. Wenn es mir als Bürger nicht möglich ist den Grenzverlauf  anhand von 
 kostenlosen Quellen nachzuvollziehen (und auch darüber zu diskutieren/ das 
 wiederzugeben) verstößt das in meinen  Augen gegen den Grundsatz das es keine 
 Entscheidungen ohne einsehbares Gesetz geben darf (den Grundsatz gibt es IMHO 
 sogar schon seit den Römern).

Naja, es koennte ja die Regel geben, dass Du die Grenzen fuer den 
privaten Gebrauch bekommst, damit waere Deiner Forderung genuege getan, 
und fuer OSM waere das dann immer noch zu wenig.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [Talk-de] Spuren anonymisieren?

2009-08-03 Thread Sven Sommerkamp

Am Sonntag, 2. August 2009 21:44:20 schrieb Stefan Schwan:
 Hi!

 Am 2. August 2009 16:18 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer 
dieterdre...@gmail.com:
  Am 1. August 2009 18:29 schrieb TeamAdiac teamad...@gmx.de:
  Am Samstag, den 01.08.2009, 16:44 +0200 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
  Am 1. August 2009 15:59 schrieb TeamAdiac teamad...@gmx.de:
   Am Samstag, den 01.08.2009, 15:13 +0200 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
   Unsere Tracks sind keinerlei
   Beweismittel (in mehrfacher Hinsicht nicht gerichtsfest).
  
   Du kannst eine Kündigung bekommen in der man einen Verdacht äußert Du
   hättest etwas gestohlen. Ja richtig: Verdacht. (geht das nicht sogar
   fristlos?)
 
  sicher nicht bei einem bloßen Verdacht.
 
  Bei dringendem Tatverdacht sehr wohl:
  http://www.focus.de/karriere/arbeitsrecht/kuendigung/verdachtskuendigung
 -der-job-am-seidenen-faden_aid_374508.html
 
  Wenn Du den Artikel aufmerksam gelesen hättest, würdest Du das hier
  nicht als Beispiel zitieren, da steht nämlich: Anders als im
  Strafrecht genügt im Arbeitsrecht der Verdacht auf eine Straftat, um
  einen Arbeitnehmer fristlos zu kündigen. „Voraussetzung ist
  allerdings, dass ein ‚dringender’ – im Gegensatz zu einem ´bloßen´ –
  Verdacht vorliegt“
 
  ANDERS ALS IM STRAFRECHT...

 Es müssen ja nicht immer die bösen Behörden sein...
 Nicht das meine Freundin mal auf die Idee kommt, sich diese
 Openstreetmap Sache mal genauer anzusehen - wenn sie dann mitbekommt
 das mein Tracker gestern Abend statt den Weg zur zur Mukkibude eine
 schöne Wolke über dem Puff aufgezeichnet hat, dann ist was los - erst
 recht wenn sie meiner Frau davon erzählt ;)
Deine Freundin deiner Frau erzählt?
Vom Puff.. ;-)
Da tuen sich ja Abgründe auf..
Wie heißt denn deine Frau ;-)

Im Ernst, mit den Spuren die wir jeden Tag 
hinterlassen, kann man ja ne Menge machen, wenn man genug Phantasie und 
Energie hat. Z.B. Geld verdienen

Man müßte ja naiv sein zu glauben das dies niemand nutzt,
nur wird man das sehr häufig sehr schwer herausbekommen.

In der Regel nur durch einen dummen Zufall, wie vor einiger Zeit beim abhören
einer unbescholtenen Frau in Hamburg.

Da tauchten in ihrem Verbindungsnachweis plötzlich Verbindungen auf, 
die sie nicht getätigt hat.

Und dann wurde es spannend..

Interessant auch das diese Meldung die im Radio kam sehr schnell nicht mehr 
gesendet wurde, hmm wieso eigentlich nicht..

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[Talk-de] Jakobsweg in Hamburg

2009-08-03 Thread Jan Tappenbeck

Moin Moin !

der Zieltermin für das Jakobsweg-Projekt [1] kommt immer näher und in 
Hamburg ist noch ein Stück von ca. 2 km Länge [2] nicht geschlossen.

Leider ist es mir aus beruflichen Gründen nicht möglich diese Strecke 
noch abzuradeln.

Würde sich einer von Euch bereiterklären dieses Teilstück noch zu 
übernehmen - dann wäre nämlich Lübeck - Hamburg Elbe fertig 

Gruß Jan :-)

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Projekt_Jakobsweg

[2] 
http://www.tappenbeck.net/osm/maps/deu/maps4osm.php?id=22zoom=14lat=53.53739lon=9.9485layers=B00T

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Re: [Talk-de] Klassifikation der Straßen - Highway

Garry garr...@gmx.de wrote:

Dann sollte man auf der englischen Seite deutlich darauf hinweisen dass 
es landesspezifische
Unterschiede geben kann (z.B. weil es die englische trunk gar nicht in 
Deutschland gibt, dafür aber die gelben Autobahnen)
und die jeweilige landeseigene Seite berücksichtigt werden sollte..

Diese gelben Autobahnen waren hier schon des Öfteren ein Thema. Das
Problem ist, dass Hintergrund Informationen hierzu kaum verfügbar
sind. Um diesen Umstand zu ändern, habe ich dies zum Anlass genommen,
um die Leiter dreier Landesstraßenbauämter an die Strippe zu bekommen
und bin dann teilweise zu den verantwortlichen Spezialisten
durchgereicht worden. Ferner habe ich mich auf eine intensive Internet
Recherche begeben. Mittels der Ergebnisse habe ich versucht, den
offiziellen Begriff für die gelben Autobahnen, nämlich
Autobahnähnliche Straße im Wiki zu präzisieren und mit hilfreichen
Links (Videos, Fotos, Erläuterungen) zu versehen. Im Artikel bin ich
auch auf die unterschiedliche Situation in anderen Ländern
eingegangen. Das Ergebnis findet sich unter
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dtrunk

Schließlich hat Heiko Mueck Jacobs anhand von konkreten Beispielen
noch eine gelungene, bebilderte Anleitung dazu verfasst, wie man
Trunks differenzieren kann.

Weitere Hintergrundinfos und gute Links sind sehr willkommen.

Gruß
Tirkon


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Re: [Talk-de] F: Mapnik - Renderer

Andreas Neumann schrieb:
 Hi,
 k.A. ob ich hier richtig bin... Aber weiß jemand, warum in letzter Zeit
 der Renderer von Mapnik mal Multipolygone von Gebäude richtig darstellt
 und mal nicht?

 Genauer: Ich hab ein Haus mit Loch drin mit ner multipolygon-Relation.
 Läuft der Renderer drüber stellt er es richtig dar. ich bin glücklich
 und wende mich anderen Stadtteilen zu. Per Zufall schau ich später
 nochmal vorbei und plötzlich werden die Löcher nicht mehr angezeigt.
 Scheinbar tritt der Fehler auf, wenn im selben Quadrat etwas geändert
 wurde, was nicht zum Haus gehört... Aber das ist nur eine Vermutung!
   
Ein ähnliches Problem hatte ich auch schon. Bei mir war es ein
Häuserblock als Multipolygon, den ich später noch etwas verschoben habe.
Zuerst war alles sauber, jetzt sind die Löcher zugelaufen und außerdem
wird gleichzeitig der alte und der neue Stand gerendert. Schön in der
Daten-Ansicht zu sehen:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.499389lon=13.438849zoom=18layers=B000FTT
Eigentlich wollte sich nach meinem Hinweis im IRC Jon Burgess da
(später) mal drum kümmern...

Allgemein: wenn du ein Problem findest, versuche, es einzugrenzen bzw.
zu reproduzieren (natürlich nur soweit, dass keine größeren Schäden
entstehen...) oder andere Stellen mit den gleichen Symptomen zu finden.
Bei Mapnik-Problemen sollte man im Zweifelsfall auch mal eine Woche
warten, bis wieder ein komplettes planetfile in der mapnik-DB ist, da
manche Probleme auch durch die diffs entstehen können, gerade bei großen
Multipolygonen immer wieder beliebt. Man kann sich auch über den
Export-Tab einen hochaktuellen Ausschnitt neu rendern lassen, manchmal
sind die Tiles einfach veraltet. Wenn der Fehler deiner Meinung nach
bestätigt wird, zögere nicht, ein Ticket (trac.openstreetmap.org)
aufzumachen. Da solltest du allerdings so viel Infos mitgeben, wie du
hast (was hast du gemacht? wie kann man es reproduzieren? wo ist der
betroffene Ausschnitt? ...).

Grüße

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Re: [Talk-de] Jakobsweg in Hamburg

Jan Tappenbeck schrieb:
 [2] 
 http://www.tappenbeck.net/osm/maps/deu/maps4osm.php?id=22zoom=14lat=53.53739lon=9.9485layers=B00T
   
OT: was ist das denn für ein riesiger Overlay-Haufen? :o
Gibt's da keine elegantere Möglichkeit dafür?

Grüße

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[Talk-de] Bericht Mapping-Party GIS-Camp

2009-08-03 Thread Kai Behncke

Liebe Leute,



Die letzten beiden Tage waren eine schöne Sache.
Über 40 Personen mappten in 2er Teams (per Auto, Fahrrad und zu Fuß) jeweils im 
Landkreis Tirschenreuth 
(Oberpfalz) in 26 unterschiedlichen Gemeinden, auch die Presse war vor Ort.

Nachdem am Samstag vorrangig das Gebiet rund um Flossenbürg (das 
Hauptquartier des GIS-Camps (http://www.gis-camp.de)) gemappt wurde, wurde 
das Gebiet am Sonntag deutlich umfangreicher.


Geschätzt wurden Tracks von etwa 250 Kilometer sowie eine ganze Masse an pois 
gemappt.
Die Daten werden im Laufe des GIS-Camps (in den nächsten 2 Wochen) 
nun nach und nach eingepflegt.

Auch der Bürgermeister einer Gemeinde war vor Ort und betonte explizit, dass 
bisherige Umsetzungsversuche Kartenmaterial auf der Gemeindeseite einzubinden 
bislang an den Kosten proprietärer Geodaten scheiterten.

Der Party-Teil der Mapping-Party kam am Abend bei bayerischem Weissbier nicht 
zu kurz.

Der FOSSGIS e.V. untersützte die Mapping-Party finanziell, personell und 
logistisch.

Ein umfangreicher Projektbericht einer studentischen Abeitsgruppe, welche mit 
einem Teil der Daten arbeiten wird,
folgt nach Abschluss des Camps.

Beste Grüße, Kai
-- 
Neu: GMX Doppel-FLAT mit Internet-Flatrate + Telefon-Flatrate
für nur 19,99 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02

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Re: [Talk-de] Jakobsweg in Hamburg

2009-08-03 Thread Jan Tappenbeck

moin !

OT: was ist das denn für ein riesiger Overlay-Haufen

das ganze soll doch eine übersicht der mir bekannten Jakobswege sein - 
über den Schalter Relationen kömmst Du auf eine Übersicht.

Gruß Jan :-)

SLXViper schrieb:
 Jan Tappenbeck schrieb:
 [2] 
 http://www.tappenbeck.net/osm/maps/deu/maps4osm.php?id=22zoom=14lat=53.53739lon=9.9485layers=B00T
   
 OT: was ist das denn für ein riesiger Overlay-Haufen? :o

 Gibt's da keine elegantere Möglichkeit dafür?
 
 Grüße


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Re: [Talk-de] Wie Stadtteilgrenzen taggen?