Re: [Talk-hr] Party render
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:28:30 +0100, nixa wrote: probao s sudo Naravno da sam probao kao root takodjer. Plav sam ali ne toliko ;) -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic ___ Talk-hr mailing list Talk-hr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-hr
Re: [Talk-hr] samo dvojica rade?
Valent Turkovic wrote: Ako je vjerovati unisima u hrvatskom dnevniku samo dvojica mappera nesto rade: http://www.openstreetmap.org/diary/hr offtopic Valent vidim da si aktivan, ali neznam koliko često citas poruke na openstreetmapu, daj pogledaj imas jednu od mene vezano za zeljeznice /offtopic ___ Talk-hr mailing list Talk-hr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-hr
Re: [Talk-hr] Party render
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 11:30:41PM +, Valent Turkovic wrote: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:18:30 +, Valent Turkovic wrote: ImportError: /usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/pymedia/muxer.so: cannot restore segment prot after reloc: Permission denied Ugasi SElinux ? /usr/sbin/setenforce 0 ili alternativno: chcon -t texrel_shlib_t /usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/pymedia/muxer.so -- Opinions above are GNU-copylefted. ___ Talk-hr mailing list Talk-hr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-hr
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu
2009/12/17 Kenneth Gonsalves law...@au-kbc.org: On Thursday 17 Dec 2009 1:03:16 pm Andreas Labres wrote: Patrick from talk-at found this by chance: http://openmaps.eu/ They seem to be reinventing the wheel, somehow... license looks proprietary From their copyright page: As our name suggests, we are here to supply map material or mapping solutions for non-commercial use. If you are interested in using our material in your own non-commercial products or services please contact us for a personalised licence. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Contribution graph
I've added another OSM graph to the stats page. It shows the % contribution of ways (current table, no account for history) per editor. It reveals that 95% of the way data is contributed by just 10% of the contributor base. In fact 50% of way data has been contributed by just 31 user accounts although the first few of these are major imports, such as TIGER (32%), AND (2%) and Coastlines. Thanks to Matt Amos for pulling the figures out of the db. The graph is here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Contribution_percentage_by_user Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
The quality of OpenStreetMap's work speaks for itself, but it seems that we need to speak about it too - especially now that Google is attempting to to appear as holding the moral high ground by using terms such as citizen cartographer that they rob of its meaning by conveniently forgetting to mention the license under which the contributed data is held. But in the eye of the public, the $5 UNICEF donation to the home country of the winner of the Map Maker Global Challenge lets them appear as charitable citizens. We need to explain why it is a fraud, so that motivated aspiring cartographers are not tempted to give away their souls for free. I could understand that they sell it, but giving it to Google for free is a bit too much - we must tell them. I'm pretty sure that good geographic data available to anyone for free will do more for the least developed communities than a 50k USD grant. I answered this piece at ReadWriteWeb and I suggest that you keep an eye for opportunities to answer this sort of propaganda against libre mapping : http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_announces_map_contest_50k_for_adding_school.php#comment-175013 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
2009/12/17 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org The quality of OpenStreetMap's work speaks for itself, but it seems that we need to speak about it too - especially now that Google is attempting to to appear as holding the moral high ground by using terms such as citizen cartographer that they rob of its meaning by conveniently forgetting to mention the license under which the contributed data is held. But in the eye of the public, the $5 UNICEF donation to the home country of the winner of the Map Maker Global Challenge lets them appear as charitable citizens. We need to explain why it is a fraud, so that motivated aspiring cartographers are not tempted to give away their souls for free. I could understand that they sell it, but giving it to Google for free is a bit too much - we must tell them. I'm pretty sure that good geographic data available to anyone for free will do more for the least developed communities than a 50k USD grant. I answered this piece at ReadWriteWeb and I suggest that you keep an eye for opportunities to answer this sort of propaganda against libre mapping : http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_announces_map_contest_50k_for_adding_school.php#comment-175013 You can add this link in terms of moral high ground: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/climate-tools-for-copenhagen-and-beyond.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
2009/12/17 Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com: 2009/12/17 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org The quality of OpenStreetMap's work speaks for itself, but it seems that we need to speak about it too - especially now that Google is attempting to to appear as holding the moral high ground by using terms such as citizen cartographer that they rob of its meaning by conveniently forgetting to mention the license under which the contributed data is held. But in the eye of the public, the $5 UNICEF donation to the home country of the winner of the Map Maker Global Challenge lets them appear as charitable citizens. We need to explain why it is a fraud, so that motivated aspiring cartographers are not tempted to give away their souls for free. I could understand that they sell it, but giving it to Google for free is a bit too much - we must tell them. I'm pretty sure that good geographic data available to anyone for free will do more for the least developed communities than a 50k USD grant. I answered this piece at ReadWriteWeb and I suggest that you keep an eye for opportunities to answer this sort of propaganda against libre mapping : http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_announces_map_contest_50k_for_adding_school.php#comment-175013 You can add this link in terms of moral high ground: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/climate-tools-for-copenhagen-and-beyond.html What a pity the whole basis for Copenhagen is a complete and utter sham, it's true global warming is man made, the moment some men started fudging the figures and lying about anything that disagreed with political agendas. Sure the world is warming, but probably not much more than the sun is increasingly outputing (0.7C per century)... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
2009/12/17 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: What a pity the whole basis for Copenhagen is a complete and utter sham, it's true global warming is man made, the moment some men started fudging the figures and lying about anything that disagreed with political agendas. Sure the world is warming, but probably not much more than the sun is increasingly outputting (0.7C per century)... Sorry, I forgot to add the magic word for people to google to find out the truth of it all: climategate... Even the Russians are now coming out and complaining about data being cherry picked to support political agendas... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:24 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: What a pity the whole basis for Copenhagen is a complete and utter sham, it's true global warming is man made, the moment some men started fudging the figures and lying about anything that disagreed with political agendas. Hi, can you take this to OSM-rants or something? Thanks. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu
Hmm, no one thought of registering Open Maps as a trademark as well as OpenStreetMap? On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Andreas Labres l...@lab.at wrote: Patrick from talk-at found this by chance: http://openmaps.eu/ They seem to be reinventing the wheel, somehow... /al ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu
2009/12/17 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: Hmm, no one thought of registering Open Maps as a trademark as well as OpenStreetMap? Weren't you the one agreeing with me that the words open and free have been abused too much and are too ambigious the other day? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu
Hi, Steve Bennett wrote: Hmm, no one thought of registering Open Maps as a trademark as well as OpenStreetMap? What makes you think that if OpenStreetMap is a term deemed to general to work as a trademark, Open Maps would somehow work? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu
As much as it is disappointing to see others work on a similar/the same project, I don't think it makes sense for a group of people that have open in their title to block others from doing something through trademark law. On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 6:40 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm, no one thought of registering Open Maps as a trademark as well as OpenStreetMap? On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Andreas Labres l...@lab.at wrote: Patrick from talk-at found this by chance: http://openmaps.eu/ They seem to be reinventing the wheel, somehow... /al ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contribution graph
Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: I've added another OSM graph to the stats page. It shows the % contribution of ways (current table, no account for history) per editor. It reveals that 95% of the way data is contributed by just 10% of the contributor base. In fact 50% of way data has been contributed by just 31 user accounts although the first few of these are major imports, such as TIGER (32%), AND (2%) and Coastlines. [..] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Contribution_percentage_by_user Interesting. Is there a way to compute that for manual contributions and automated ones separately, or are they both using the same sort of accounts with no way to distinguish between them ? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
Hi all, As we all know, you don't tag for the renderer. However, you want your map data to render nicely now, and you want correct map data in the long term. Suggestion: introduce a fallback tag. For example, around my city there are little reserves - patches of grass reserved by the government for future development such as freeways or train lines. They often get tagged leisure=park, but say I want to start tagging them landuse=reserve instead. Suddenly, instead of being green on mapnik, it will be white again - unrecognised tag. Solution: tag it like this: landuse=reserve fallback:leisure=park That's pretty simple logic to explain to any renderer or editor, and it gives people a way to avoid the temptation of tagging for the renderer, and allows them to tag for the future instead. What do people think? (No comments on how to tag land reserves, it's just an example...) (This case is slightly complicated by the fact that the two tags - landuse and leisure - are different. Perhaps a more explicit fallback:landuse=leisure:park would be clearer.) Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
2009/12/17 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: What do people think? (No comments on how to tag land reserves, it's just an example...) Nice idea, but you are painting yourself into a corner as you limit the fall back to a single option. It'd be better if you could go from most specific to least, for example, a massage shop is also a type of shop, which is also a retail space. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, As we all know, you don't tag for the renderer. However, you want your map data to render nicely now, and you want correct map data in the long term. Suggestion: introduce a fallback tag. For example, around my city there are little reserves - patches of grass reserved by the government for future development such as freeways or train lines. They often get tagged leisure=park, but say I want to start tagging them landuse=reserve instead. Suddenly, instead of being green on mapnik, it will be white again - unrecognised tag. Solution: tag it like this: landuse=reserve fallback:leisure=park That's pretty simple logic to explain to any renderer or editor, and it gives people a way to avoid the temptation of tagging for the renderer, and allows them to tag for the future instead. What do people think? (No comments on how to tag land reserves, it's just an example...) (This case is slightly complicated by the fact that the two tags - landuse and leisure - are different. Perhaps a more explicit fallback:landuse=leisure:park would be clearer.) Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk 1. And what if even the 'fallback tag' is not rendered by the renderer? 2. Some things may have just no fallback e.g. Mountain passes are not rendered by most renderers. What would be the fallback tag in such a case. In my opinion, this will only confuse the mappers more when they tag a POI. A few days down the line, we would have many more questions on what should be the fallback of what and why? I would think a better idea is to have atleast one renderer and the main OSM map to render a superset of all tags. Regards, Shalabh ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
2009/12/17 Shalabh shalab...@gmail.com: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, As we all know, you don't tag for the renderer. However, you want your map data to render nicely now, and you want correct map data in the long term. Suggestion: introduce a fallback tag. For example, around my city there are little reserves - patches of grass reserved by the government for future development such as freeways or train lines. They often get tagged leisure=park, but say I want to start tagging them landuse=reserve instead. Suddenly, instead of being green on mapnik, it will be white again - unrecognised tag. Solution: tag it like this: landuse=reserve fallback:leisure=park That's pretty simple logic to explain to any renderer or editor, and it gives people a way to avoid the temptation of tagging for the renderer, and allows them to tag for the future instead. What do people think? (No comments on how to tag land reserves, it's just an example...) (This case is slightly complicated by the fact that the two tags - landuse and leisure - are different. Perhaps a more explicit fallback:landuse=leisure:park would be clearer.) Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk 1. And what if even the 'fallback tag' is not rendered by the renderer? 2. Some things may have just no fallback e.g. Mountain passes are not rendered by most renderers. What would be the fallback tag in such a case. In my opinion, this will only confuse the mappers more when they tag a POI. A few days down the line, we would have many more questions on what should be the fallback of what and why? I would think a better idea is to have atleast one renderer and the main OSM map to render a superset of all tags. +1 This should be in the rendering logic, not the map data, otherwise it's no better than tagging things with the icons to use for POIs etc. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
What do people think? (No comments on how to tag land reserves, it's just an example...) Tagging for and only or the renderer is a bad idea. Better sind in a patch to the mapnik xml, to that (in your example) landuse=reserve is rendered accordingly, or tag as landuse=park, reserve=yes. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
Hi, Steve Bennett wrote: Solution: tag it like this: landuse=reserve fallback:leisure=park This makes only sense if there are certain landuse=reserve areas that you want to fall back to leisure=park and other landuse=reserve areas that are more like a natural=grass. And this would then mean that landuse=reserve is somehow underspecified. If you have a certain fallback hierarchy that says dear renderers of the world, if you encounter something tagged landuse=reserve and you don't know what to do, then treat it as leisure=park, then it makes more sense to create this hierarchy externally and feed it to the renderers, instead of putting bits and pieces of it all over the database! There are some technical problems, too. Mapnik, for example, renders by going through the rules one by one, fetching the matching objects, and rendering them. Your thinking is obviously the other way round: Take each object in turn and decide how to render it. With your approach it is quite easy to have an else case that renders things differently if none of the other rules apply. With Mapnik that is not so easy. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:55 PM, Shalabh shalab...@gmail.com wrote: 1. And what if even the 'fallback tag' is not rendered by the renderer? That's the current situation. So, the worst case scenario, with this tag, is...what we have now. Every other case is an improvement. 2. Some things may have just no fallback e.g. Mountain passes are not rendered by most renderers. What would be the fallback tag in such a case. Not sure which tag you're referring to. If the tag is just a bit of decoration, maybe you don't need a fallback. But in lots of other cases, it would be good to be able to fall back to at least a landuse=industrial, or building=yes or something. In my opinion, this will only confuse the mappers more when they tag a POI. Nah. Only the smart mappers would even think of using it. A few days down the line, we would have many more questions on what should be the fallback of what and why? Nah. It doesn't matter enough. I would see it mostly as a personal thing for the mapper, to know that at least *something* will render. I would think a better idea is to have atleast one renderer and the main OSM map to render a superset of all tags. There are hundreds of thousands of distinct key=value pairs. And even if that was one renderer could do it...how does that help? Say I want Mapnik to look nice, but you propose that I use Osmarender instead because it supports every single tag This isn't a solution at all. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:55 PM, Shalabh shalab...@gmail.com wrote: 1. And what if even the 'fallback tag' is not rendered by the renderer? That's the current situation. So, the worst case scenario, with this tag, is...what we have now. Every other case is an improvement. 2. Some things may have just no fallback e.g. Mountain passes are not rendered by most renderers. What would be the fallback tag in such a case. Not sure which tag you're referring to. If the tag is just a bit of decoration, maybe you don't need a fallback. But in lots of other cases, it would be good to be able to fall back to at least a landuse=industrial, or building=yes or something. Referring to 'Mountain pass' which is not a decoration by any means. In my opinion, this will only confuse the mappers more when they tag a POI. Nah. Only the smart mappers would even think of using it. And the 'not so smart ones' may sometimes end up putting in unwanted values or choosing the wrong option from a drop down. And then some smart ones will have to correct all that. A few days down the line, we would have many more questions on what should be the fallback of what and why? Nah. It doesn't matter enough. I would see it mostly as a personal thing for the mapper, to know that at least *something* will render. I would think a better idea is to have atleast one renderer and the main OSM map to render a superset of all tags. There are hundreds of thousands of distinct key=value pairs. And even if that was one renderer could do it...how does that help? Say I want Mapnik to look nice, but you propose that I use Osmarender instead because it supports every single tag This isn't a solution at all. Steve Better than having renderers rendering the same area with different colours and notations. Anyway, for this approach to even start making sense, there has to be TAG FAMILY TREE covering each known tag such that each has fallback options going up to a certain level. And then each renderer should follow the TAG TREE. Not sure how feasible would this be. Regards, Shalabh ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
to know that at least *something* will render. This seems like a confusing proposal to ensure that a tiny fraction of a percentage of the whitespace on OSM.org gets *something* rendered in it. -1 from me. 2009/12/17 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:55 PM, Shalabh shalab...@gmail.com wrote: 1. And what if even the 'fallback tag' is not rendered by the renderer? That's the current situation. So, the worst case scenario, with this tag, is...what we have now. Every other case is an improvement. 2. Some things may have just no fallback e.g. Mountain passes are not rendered by most renderers. What would be the fallback tag in such a case. Not sure which tag you're referring to. If the tag is just a bit of decoration, maybe you don't need a fallback. But in lots of other cases, it would be good to be able to fall back to at least a landuse=industrial, or building=yes or something. In my opinion, this will only confuse the mappers more when they tag a POI. Nah. Only the smart mappers would even think of using it. A few days down the line, we would have many more questions on what should be the fallback of what and why? Nah. It doesn't matter enough. I would see it mostly as a personal thing for the mapper, to know that at least *something* will render. I would think a better idea is to have atleast one renderer and the main OSM map to render a superset of all tags. There are hundreds of thousands of distinct key=value pairs. And even if that was one renderer could do it...how does that help? Say I want Mapnik to look nice, but you propose that I use Osmarender instead because it supports every single tag This isn't a solution at all. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.dewrote: Tagging for and only or the renderer is a bad idea. Better sind in a patch to the mapnik xml, With respect, fix the renderer is not a solution to how do I tag in such a way that current and future renderers will produce an acceptable result? to that (in your example) landuse=reserve is rendered accordingly, or tag as landuse=park, reserve=yes. Did you mean leisure=park? If so, this is the worst case of tagging for the renderer, because *it's not a park*. The whole point is to avoid using incorrect tags. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Shalabh shalab...@gmail.com wrote: Anyway, for this approach to even start making sense, there has to be TAG FAMILY TREE covering each known tag such that each has fallback options going up to a certain level. And then each renderer should follow the TAG TREE. Not sure how feasible would this be. *If* you wanted to centralise the fallback logic, then, yes, that would be nice to have. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
2009/12/17 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: Nah. Only the smart mappers would even think of using it. And people that CP... Nah. It doesn't matter enough. I would see it mostly as a personal thing for the mapper, to know that at least *something* will render. Don't tag it until your feature request to update mapnik's style sheet is put into production... There are hundreds of thousands of distinct key=value pairs. And even if that was one renderer could do it...how does that help? Say I want Mapnik to look nice, but you propose that I use Osmarender instead because it supports every single tag This isn't a solution at all. So file a feature request against mapnik's style sheet... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Joseph Reeves iknowjos...@gmail.comwrote: This seems like a confusing proposal to ensure that a tiny fraction of a percentage of the whitespace on OSM.org gets *something* rendered in it. No, it's a proposal to encourage people to tag for the future and to smooth transitions to better tag schemes. IMHO one of the reasons we get stuck with bad schemes is that switching is so unattractive. If you go around changing existing tags to something marginally better, all renderers will instantly stop rendering anything. That's a huge disincentive. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:15 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: Don't tag it until your feature request to update mapnik's style sheet is put into production... That's completely at odds with standard OSM advice: tag however you want. So file a feature request against mapnik's style sheet... I never mentioned Mapnik. Let's be quite clear about the use cases here: Your strategy: 1) I want to tag Y instead of X. 2) I file a feature request with mapnik. 3) I file a feature request with kosmos 4) I file a feature request with osmarender 5) I file a few more feature requests 6) I turn old and grey. 7) My feature requests are all approved 8) I use my new tag. My strategy: 1) I want to tag Y instead of X. 2) I tag Y, fallback:X 3) I get on with my life. Renderers will catch up whenever. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
On Thursday 17 December 2009, John Smith wrote: What a pity the whole basis for Copenhagen is a complete and utter sham, it's true global warming is man made, the moment some men started fudging the figures and lying about anything that disagreed with political agendas. Sure the world is warming, but probably not much more than the sun is increasingly outputing (0.7C per century)... Oh look another non-scientist giving his authoritative opinions about climate science. THIS is what I want to hear on osm-talk. robert. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
Hi, Steve Bennett wrote: My strategy: 1) I want to tag Y instead of X. 2) I tag Y, fallback:X 3) I get on with my life. Renderers will catch up whenever. My strategy: 1) I want to tag Y 2) I tag Y 3) I get on with my life. Renderers will catch up whenever. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
Hi, Robert Scott wrote: Oh look another non-scientist giving his authoritative opinions about climate science. THIS is what I want to hear on osm-talk. I'd love to hear about the nationality of the US president, the veracity of the moon landing, and chemtrails as well. Oh, and someone in Ireland has just released a motor that produces more energy than it consumes. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, Steve Bennett wrote: My strategy: 1) I want to tag Y instead of X. 2) I tag Y, fallback:X 3) I get on with my life. Renderers will catch up whenever. My strategy: 1) I want to tag Y 2) I tag Y 3) I get on with my life. Renderers will catch up whenever. +1 Cheers, Chris ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu
Hmm, no one thought of registering Open Maps as a trademark as well as OpenStreetMap? What makes you think that if OpenStreetMap is a term deemed to general to work as a trademark, Open Maps would somehow work? In any case, we are supposed to be open. Trying to trademark names merely similar to our own is one of the most closed, monopolistic actions that it's possible to take. The idea of OSM is to collect and make available free data, not to act as a monopoly and go after similar projects. Nick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Steve Bennett wrote: My strategy: 1) I want to tag Y instead of X. 2) I tag Y, fallback:X 3) I get on with my life. Renderers will catch up whenever. My strategy: 1) I want to tag Y 2) I tag Y 3) I get on with my life. Renderers will catch up whenever. Bye Frederik +1 Shalabh ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
2009/12/17 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Hi, Robert Scott wrote: Oh look another non-scientist giving his authoritative opinions about climate science. THIS is what I want to hear on osm-talk. I'd love to hear about the nationality of the US president, the veracity of the moon landing, and chemtrails as well. Oh, and someone in Ireland has just released a motor that produces more energy than it consumes. You left out cold fusion, and nukes in the upper atmosphere... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
2009/12/17 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: That's completely at odds with standard OSM advice: tag however you want. You only want to tag stuff that renders, so update the render style sheet then tag it, if you don't care about it rendering first just tag it but your comments are specifically about wanting them to render first. I never mentioned Mapnik. Let's be quite clear about the use cases here: Umm yes you did... Say I want Mapnik to look nice, but you propose that I use Osmarender instead because it supports every single tag This isn't a solution at all. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
Tagging for and only or the renderer is a bad idea. Better sind in a patch to the mapnik xml, With respect, fix the renderer is not a solution to how do I tag in such a way that current and future renderers will produce an acceptable result? Why not? to that (in your example) landuse=reserve is rendered accordingly, or tag as landuse=park, reserve=yes. Did you mean leisure=park? If so, this is the worst case of tagging for the renderer, because *it's not a park*. The whole point is to avoid using incorrect tags. Sorry, was just a sample ;) Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
2009/12/17 Robert Scott li...@humanleg.org.uk: On Thursday 17 December 2009, John Smith wrote: What a pity the whole basis for Copenhagen is a complete and utter sham, it's true global warming is man made, the moment some men started fudging the figures and lying about anything that disagreed with political agendas. Sure the world is warming, but probably not much more than the sun is increasingly outputing (0.7C per century)... Oh look another non-scientist giving his authoritative opinions about climate science. Well highschool students couldn't do much worst than some of the code the scientists came up with, hell they should have been given a failing mark on statistics to boot. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
4) And maybe I do some rendering myself... Richard On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Steve Bennett wrote: My strategy: 1) I want to tag Y instead of X. 2) I tag Y, fallback:X 3) I get on with my life. Renderers will catch up whenever. My strategy: 1) I want to tag Y 2) I tag Y 3) I get on with my life. Renderers will catch up whenever. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
2009/12/17 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com: 4) And maybe I do some rendering myself... I actually offered him help/resources the other week on the talk-au list with regards to style sheets, perhaps I was a little too subtle :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote: The quality of OpenStreetMap's work speaks for itself, but it seems that we need to speak about it too - especially now that Google is attempting to to appear as holding the moral high ground by using terms such as citizen cartographer that they rob of its meaning by conveniently forgetting to mention the license under which the contributed data is held. By submitting User Submissions to the Service, you give Google a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, royalty-free, and non-exclusive license to reproduce, adapt, modify, translate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display, distribute, and create derivative works of the User Submission. Nuff said. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSMdoc: Questions for a new version [namespaced keys, multivalued values]
On 06/12/09 21:34, Lars Francke wrote: 1) What should I do with namespaced tags. I mean all tags with colons in them to separate parts of the key. Examples are the tiger tags (tiger:tlid, ...), the Karlsruhe schema for addresses (addr:), name tags (name:de) or the seamark tags used by OpenSeaMap. The only thing I'm doing at the moment is to point from one tag to all its 'child' or 'parent' tags. So addr has a link to addr:city, addr:street and so on and addr:city has a link to addr. Does anyone have more ideas about what to do with this information? Any kind of analysis or data you'd be interested in just let me know. That's a good idea. Can I just add about swapping the names around. Most 'namespaced tags' are standardized, but sometimes people put them in other orders. e.g. bicycle:oneway and oneway:bicycle. There should be a link from one to the other. Rory signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Keep up with the SOTM 2010 progress
My suggestion is for some coordinated session between SOTM/Wikimania .. perhaps a live stream of a presentation on the OSM maps in Wikipedia from Wikimania to SOTM? == Mikel Maron == http://mapkibera.org/ +254 (0) 724899738 mi...@osmfoundation.org From: Henk Hoff toffeh...@gmail.com To: Kate maps2w...@gmail.com Cc: Hurricane hurric...@hurricanemcewen.com; openstreetmap talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 3:03:50 PM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Keep up with the SOTM 2010 progress Hello Kate, We've discussed the issue of the dates you've mentioned, but we have decided to stick with the date mentioned. Reasons: - It's the same weekend as this year (and last year) - The week before the weekend, the Girona University already had a series of summer-OS GIS-workshops planned. To give attendees the possibility to also go to these workshops, was a strong reason to stick with the dates. I can understand you would have to choose for Wikimania. Maybe next year we should compare dates with both conferences before we both decide on dates. Cheers, Henk Hoff 2009/12/8 Kate maps2w...@gmail.com On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Hurricane hurric...@hurricanemcewen.com wrote: First choice is Girona, runner-up is Vienna Three day conference, same as this year: business day and community-weekend Give the Spanish chapter a week time to confirm the venue and more detailed information about the costs. If that’s unsatisfactory, the runner-up will host SotM10 What are the proposed dates for the SOTM conference?I have seen July 9-11 proposed, though have seen other dates. Those are the same dates as the Wikimedia conference (Wikimania) 2010 in Poland, so people who have interest in both projects would have to chose between SOTM and Wikimania. I would have to choose Wikimania, because of my involvement there. :( http://wikimania2010.wikimedia.org/ I'm hoping the dates are not in conflict, though if they are close together (combine a trip to Europe), that could work. -Kate Hurricane ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Keep up with the SOTM 2010 progress
El Jueves, 17 de Diciembre de 2009, Mikel Maron escribió: My suggestion is for some coordinated session between SOTM/Wikimania .. perhaps a live stream of a presentation on the OSM maps in Wikipedia from Wikimania to SOTM? Let me check if the SotM venue has the appropiate facilities for this. -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es http://ivan.sanchezortega.es Proudly running Debian Linux with 2.6.31-1-amd64 kernel, KDE 3.5.10, and PHP 5.2.11-2 generating this signature. Uptime: 15:17:07 up 31 days, 12:10, 5 users, load average: 1.26, 0.87, 0.78 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Google Map Maker promotion
We could hire a Mapping Matatu :). A matatu is the main form of public transport in Kenya, described as a cross between a sports car, a minibus, and a night club http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Share_taxi#Matatu_.28Kenya.2FUganda.29 == Mikel Maron == http://mapkibera.org/ +254 (0) 724899738 mi...@osmfoundation.org From: Nick Black nickbla...@gmail.com To: Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com Cc: OSM talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 2:24:26 PM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Google Map Maker promotion This is an awesome idea. I'd like to see the OSM Foundation running something like this. Without a co-ordinated effort, Google have a great chance of winning the hearts and minds of mappers in developing countries. Its exactly the same tactic as Microsoft or Oracle flooding universities with free / cheap versions of their software. Alternatively the OSM-F could lend some marketing help to Mikel co whose Map Kibera initiative no doubt inspired Google's mapping bus. http://mapkibera.org/ -- Nick On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 5:33 AM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: Apparently, OSM is lacking a bus: http://google-latlong.blogspot.com/2009/12/mapping-india-on-googles-internet-bus.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- -- Nick Black twitter.com/nick_b ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:47 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: You only want to tag stuff that renders, so update the render style sheet then tag it, if you don't care about it rendering first just tag it but your comments are specifically about wanting them to render first. I actually offered him help/resources the other week on the talk-au list with regards to style sheets, perhaps I was a little too subtle :) Ok, we're obviously coming from very different mindsets here. I'm trying to find scalable solutions. When I say Say I have x problem, it doesn't render well, I'm not looking for someone to tell me how to edit a stylesheet and hack mapnik to produce a particular result on my machine. Instead, I'm presuming that the problem I'm describing is common to many people. And further, I'm presuming that because they have a problem (which there isn't a good solution for), *we* have a problem. In this case, I'm saying that if people have to choose between tagging correctly, or getting instant gratification in the online renderers. This is a problem. And these are not solutions: 1) Tag correctly anyway 2) Don't worry about how it looks 3) Hack the stylesheet and render it on your machine 4) File a feature request 5) Fix the renderer myself and post the diff 6) Use a clever combination of tags that solves this particular instance They're not solutions because they don't scale. They might solve my problem today, but they don't solve the general problem for people in general. Whereas having something like a fallback tag *does* scale: once implemented in a few renderers, it only takes that tiny piece of knowledge (the existence of the tag) for this problem to be solved again and again, every time it occurs. There may be arguments against my proposed solution. There may be better solutions. It may not be a big problem. But, please, these one-off workarounds and hacks are not solutions. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
Frederik Ramm wrote: Oh, and someone in Ireland has just released a motor that produces more energy than it consumes. Apart from the massive D cell powering it, you mean? http://blogs.zdnet.co.uk/news-blog/#10014630 -- Jonathan (Jonobennett) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: There may be arguments against my proposed solution. There may be better solutions. It may not be a big problem. But, please, these one-off workarounds and hacks are not solutions. Steve Actually Steve, I think your solution is as much a workaround as the other solutions. It just adds another level of complexity. If we dont centralize what I call 'TAG TREE', it anyway wont work and I am not even sure if you can identify a parent for each tag and then a parent of a parent and so on. So, lets map and wait for the renderers to catch up. Regards, Shalabh ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
2009/12/18 Shalabh shalab...@gmail.com: So, lets map and wait for the renderers to catch up. Or if he were really serious about this he'd come up with a suitable break down list of most specific to least specific way existing tags already in use could render and then provide suitable patches for renderers to hook into his results... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 1:47 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: Or if he were really serious about this he'd come up with a suitable Was this mailing list always like this? I don't get it. I make a sincere suggestion for a tag that I think would be useful, and just look at the response. Where does it all come from? Someone smacks down the OP and two others immediately chime in with +1. Am I out of line brainstorming here? Why the snide replies? Why so much negativity? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:35 AM, Nick Whitelegg nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk wrote: In any case, we are supposed to be open. Trying to trademark names merely similar to our own is one of the most closed, monopolistic actions that it's possible to take. The idea of OSM is to collect and make available free data, not to act as a monopoly and go after similar projects. You're right; I didn't really think before posting. It was a tongue-in-cheek remark about the similarity of the URLs that came out wrong. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 1:47 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: Or if he were really serious about this he'd come up with a suitable Was this mailing list always like this? I don't get it. I make a sincere suggestion for a tag that I think would be useful, and just look at the response. Where does it all come from? Someone smacks down the OP and two others immediately chime in with +1. Am I out of line brainstorming here? Why the snide replies? Why so much negativity? Steve Cool down Steve. The +1s were not to put you down, it was just agreement with something someone said. No one here is shooting down your proposal because they dont want change. Ask me, I am fed up of so many renderers, none of which renders everything that I want rendered. It is just that I dont see your solution as a scalable one and the same goes for many of the +1ers. The +1 is just a figure of speech. You are sort of advocating a top down approach while others think it has to be a bottom up approach. And all of us are entitled to our opinions. If you have a solution which can make the renderers render what they are supposed to render without adding layers of complicacy, it will be welcome. Cheers, Shalabh ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.orgwrote: If you have a certain fallback hierarchy that says dear renderers of the world, if you encounter something tagged landuse=reserve and you don't know what to do, then treat it as leisure=park, then it makes more sense to create this hierarchy externally and feed it to the renderers, instead of putting bits and pieces of it all over the database! Yes...but I think it's a fair statement that centralisation of tag semantics is not working very well, and many people bypass the process altogether. So, yes, in a perfect world, we would simply define these fallbacks centrally. But in the OSM world, it would be useful to do them case by case. One benefit is no one needs to argue over them. You want to tag your fallback as landuse=nature_reserve? Go ahead. Then just start using your fallback tag. There's no need to tell the list about it. On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 8:18 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: My strategy: 1) I want to tag Y instead of X. 2) I tag Y, fallback:X 3) I get on with my life. Renderers will catch up whenever. Great. Do it. No one's stopping you. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
Steve Bennett wrote: Hi all, As we all know, you don't tag for the renderer. However, you want your map data to render nicely now, and you want correct map data in the long term. Suggestion: introduce a fallback tag. For example, around my city there are little reserves - patches of grass reserved by the government for future development such as freeways or train lines. They often get tagged leisure=park, but say I want to start tagging them landuse=reserve instead. Suddenly, instead of being green on mapnik, it will be white again - unrecognised tag. Don't tag for the future. If it's use *now *is a park, tag it as a park. When if (and that's a *big *if when talking about civil engineering projects) it changes use re-tag it then not before. Also, I think this should be on the Tagging forum. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, Steve Bennett wrote: My strategy: 1) I want to tag Y instead of X. 2) I tag Y, fallback:X 3) I get on with my life. Renderers will catch up whenever. My strategy: 1) I want to tag Y 2) I tag Y 3) I get on with my life. Renderers will catch up whenever. Bye Frederik +1 Steve B - Your chasing your tail. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
Steve Bennett wrote: I'm not looking for someone to tell me how to edit a stylesheet and hack mapnik to produce a particular result on my machine. But, Steve, that's precisely what you should be doing. And these are not solutions: 4) File a feature request 5) Fix the renderer myself and post the diff Yes, they are. If the render of your choice doesn't render a key/tag, fix it yourself so that it does. John S. looked willing to help you. ...But, please, these one-off workarounds and hacks are not solutions. It sounds like you're the one that's 'hacking' things. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contribution graph
Intriguing, Andy. Thanks for adding this. Would be nice to be able to filter out the import-users when producing these stats, however. Is that feasible? Martijn On Dec 17, 2009, at 10:18 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: I've added another OSM graph to the stats page. It shows the % contribution of ways (current table, no account for history) per editor. It reveals that 95% of the way data is contributed by just 10% of the contributor base. In fact 50% of way data has been contributed by just 31 user accounts although the first few of these are major imports, such as TIGER (32%), AND (2%) and Coastlines. Thanks to Matt Amos for pulling the figures out of the db. The graph is here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Contribution_percentage_by_user Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
Steve Bennett wrote: On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 1:47 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com mailto:deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: Or if he were really serious about this he'd come up with a suitable Was this mailing list always like this? I don't get it. I make a sincere suggestion for a tag that I think would be useful, and just look at the response. Where does it all come from? Someone smacks down the OP and two others immediately chime in with +1. Am I out of line brainstorming here? Why the snide replies? Why so much negativity? *You *asked for opinions!?! - What do people think? Replies are in the negative because they think your idea is poor for the reasons stated. It's as simple as that. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
First, thanks for the thoughtful replies, everyone. I'll reply to all in one email. It is just that I dont see your solution as a scalable one What's not scalable about it - presumably that you have to tag a fall back every time you use the tag? What's an alternative that's more scalable, for someone who doesn't have the ability/time/whatever to setup a rendering system and produce their own custom maps? You are sort of advocating a top down approach while others think it has to be a bottom up approach. IMHO what I am (was?) advocating is somewhere in the middle, but closer to bottom up. True top down would be standardising all tags and forcing renderers to be compliant. Somewhat less so is a central list that renderers can optionally implement. I was only advocating a single tag that renderers should know how to deal with, leaving all the rest of the decisions to individuals. Pretty bottom up, if you ask me. And all of us are entitled to our opinions. If you have a solution which can make the renderers render what they are supposed to render without adding layers of complicacy, it will be welcome. I don't think anyone spontaneously generates perfect solutions out of nowhere. I had an idea, I wanted to see whether it could go anywhere with some workshopping. Sure, maybe it was a dumb idea. But I don't think we can shoot down every idea on the basis that it's not comprehensive. Then just start using your fallback tag. There's no need to tell the list about it. IMVHO, that approach is harmful in general (have you *seen* how many different tags are out there?), and ironic in this instance. More precisely, the fallback that you are proposing would be relatively heavy both on code and people. It may be heavy on code – I hadn't thought about the way Mapnik renders, for instance – but by definition it's light on people: it's a completely optional tag, there for those that want to use it. If you use it, you get some additional benefit, if you don't, you lose nothing. If I was proposing that everyone tag everything with multiple fallback tags, *that* would be heavy on people. If it's use *now *is a park, tag it as a park. When if (and that's a *big *if when talking about civil engineering projects) it changes use re-tag it then not before. Did everyone misunderstand my example this way? The thing is a reserve, not a park. It has grass, but no amenities. It only exists to protect the land for future development. People tag them as parks because that's the closest tag...but it's not ideal. My tagging for the future remark had nothing to do with future development, only future support of a reserve tag. Also, I think this should be on the Tagging forum. Yeah, maybe. I thought it was slightly out of scope for that. In the end, OSM is a database, and how you are rendering a map is something accessory, as everyone can set up the rendering the way they want. It is the greatest strength of OSM that you can choose what kind of rendering you can do. I think the map should deemphasized at some point from the main site as more and more people want custom rendering. I guess I will have to investigate this further, but that's really not at all how I see OSM, and not how I think the public perceives it. The diehards on this list may all have their own renderers set up at home, but that's rare. For most people, the mapnik view *is* OSM, and switching it off would be dumping OSM's biggest selling point. The world has very much moved to a cloud model, whereas what you're proposing (download the data, render it using an offline client) is exactly the opposite of that. I just don't see that approach gaining traction any more. If anything, I would have thought you'd put more effort into custom rendering on the server, like cloudmade does. Of course, I could be completely wrong. That would at least explain why I find the response of make your own stylesheet so jarring to my original problem statement. Yes, they are. If the render of your choice doesn't render a key/tag,fix it yourself so that it does. Hmm, and I put so much effort into explaining the difference between a one-off solution and a scalable solution. I thought I'd get more than yes it is. *You *asked for opinions!?! - What do people think? Replies are in the negative because they think your idea is poor for the reasons stated. It's as simple as that. Constructive critism is great, and there were some good points raised. But by and large the response was not constructive. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contribution graph
Martijn van Exel [mailto:mve...@gmail.com] wrote: Sent: 17 December 2009 4:04 PM To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Contribution graph Intriguing, Andy. Thanks for adding this. Would be nice to be able to filter out the import-users when producing these stats, however. Is that feasible? The graph looks the same if I remove the top 5 user accounts (all greater than 1% of the data and between them totalling 39% of all way data) however the amount contributed by the top 10% of users (ignoring the top 5) reduces to 91.5%. So basically the 90/10 rule appears to apply for normal contributions made by the humble mapper. This is in line with what I see locally in my own patch. Cheers Andy Martijn On Dec 17, 2009, at 10:18 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: I've added another OSM graph to the stats page. It shows the % contribution of ways (current table, no account for history) per editor. It reveals that 95% of the way data is contributed by just 10% of the contributor base. In fact 50% of way data has been contributed by just 31 user accounts although the first few of these are major imports, such as TIGER (32%), AND (2%) and Coastlines. Thanks to Matt Amos for pulling the figures out of the db. The graph is here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Contribution_percentage_by_user Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
Steve Bennett wrote: For example, around my city there are little reserves - patches of grass reserved by the government for future development such as freeways or train lines. They often get tagged leisure=park, but say I want to start tagging them landuse=reserve instead. Suddenly, instead of being green on mapnik, it will be white again - unrecognised tag. Solution: tag it like this: landuse=reserve fallback:leisure=park No. This is way beyond wrong in several ways. Core principle: you should map what's on the ground. If it's a reserve, call it a reserve. It's not a park, so don't call it a park. The OSM database exists _only_ to record reality. Secondly: as far as I can tell, you're proposing inserting fallback:leisure=park into the database at every occurrence of landuse=reserve. You might also have, I dunno, fallback:highway=bridleway for every occurrence of highway=byway. And so on across loads of tags. This is just redundancy on a massive, massive scale. You're inserting the same hint millions of times when you should be inserting it once. If landuse=park always approximates to leisure=park, then that either needs to be in the renderer stylesheets themselves (and it'd be one line in the Mapnik stylesheet or osm2pgsql setup), or in a general equivalence document that all the renderers can use (Shalabh's tree thingy). Rendering information, of any stripe, does not go in the database. That is absolute. You want instant gratification - that's fair enough. But the authors of the stylesheets don't have the time to pander to every possible tag combination - which is also fair enough, they're volunteers too and they have to prioritise. And I hate to say it, but trac shows that people _do_ sometimes invent obscure tags, which is ok, and demand support for them incessantly, which isn't. So the right way to solve it is to lower the barrier to getting Your Favourite Feature rendered. Fortunately this is happening. Cartagen is an instant-gratification JavaScript renderer. It's awesome. Halcyon is the Flash one I'm working on and if you'll permit the immodesty, I'd say it's ok, too. Kosmos is Igor Brejc's long-standing project which gets better by the month and can produce lovely results. Tiledrawer is Mike Migurski's superb Mapnik for the rest of us installation which is still a bit more involved, but worth it as the best way to harness Mapnik MONSTER POWER without a nervous breakdown. Cloudmade's Style Editor has some limitations but you can't beat it in UI terms and I'm sure it'll get more flexible in the future, so one to watch. Of course, Osmarender has been around since about 38BC and is reasonably accessible. And there are others. This leads to a virtuous circle: one renderer supports the tag - tag more widely used - more renderer support - and so on. Andy first started rendering ncn_ref on OpenCycleMap several years ago, when OCM was just a little local project rather than the world-conquering behemoth it is today. Now there are cycle renderers for local areas, for Garmins, for routing, and so on. It really works. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Suggestion%3A-fallback-tag-tp26827544p26830932.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Keep up with the SOTM 2010 progress
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 14:13, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: My suggestion is for some coordinated session between SOTM/Wikimania .. perhaps a live stream of a presentation on the OSM maps in Wikipedia from Wikimania to SOTM? I don't know about 2010 but as far as I know Wikimania has never been held in a venue where the provided Internet connection supported something like this. This year the connection however between non-existent and 5kB/s. We can talk with Marcin (saper) who is organizing things in Poland for Wikimania. Also, we (OSMers in the US) are working on organizing a US SOTM conference, to take place sometime before the big, international SOTM. That could be an opportunity for people to present, who otherwise can't go to SOTM in Spain. -Katie ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote: The quality of OpenStreetMap's work speaks for itself, but it seems that we need to speak about it too - especially now that Google is attempting to to appear as holding the moral high ground by using terms such as citizen cartographer that they rob of its meaning by conveniently forgetting to mention the license under which the contributed data is held. By submitting User Submissions to the Service, you give Google a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, royalty-free, and non-exclusive license to reproduce, adapt, modify, translate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display, distribute, and create derivative works of the User Submission. Compared to: You hereby grant to OSMF and any party that receives Your Contents a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable license to do any act that is restricted by copyright over anything within the Contents, whether in the original medium or any other. Most potential contributors will not read much beyond that and will likely conclude that there's not much to choose between Google and OSM anyway. And at least they've heard of Google... 80n ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
2009/12/17 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com In the end, OSM is a database, and how you are rendering a map is something accessory, as everyone can set up the rendering the way they want. It is the greatest strength of OSM that you can choose what kind of rendering you can do. I think the map should deemphasized at some point from the main site as more and more people want custom rendering. I guess I will have to investigate this further, but that's really not at all how I see OSM, and not how I think the public perceives it. The diehards on this list may all have their own renderers set up at home, but that's rare. For most people, the mapnik view *is* OSM, and switching it off would be dumping OSM's biggest selling point. The world has very much moved to a cloud model, whereas what you're proposing (download the data, render it using an offline client) is exactly the opposite of that. I just don't see that approach gaining traction any more. If anything, I would have thought you'd put more effort into custom rendering on the server, like cloudmade does. Of course, I could be completely wrong. That would at least explain why I find the response of make your own stylesheet so jarring to my original problem statement. I understand your point. But I disagree about the directions where things are going. Some things are going for the cloud, some will stay on your desktop. Don't necessarily believe the hype and take it with a pinch of salt. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point, people are coming up with custom cloud renderers. But for the time being, if you want a custom rendering you will be using your own pc or server. If you are interested in a relatively simple renderer, you could look at http://igorbrejc.net/kosmoshome . This should help you and should not be too difficult to use. I look forward to some offline rendering using Halcyon personally. Being able to tweak a map just by playing with some css sounds very appealing to me. I agree that for many people the map is the focal point of OSM but again, we have already two major renderers on the main site. I think it sends a clear signal that we are not just about one map but several. In the end, the power of OSM is what you do with it. The map part is not a major interest to me, but I might be one of the exception. Emilie Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
2009/12/18 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: As others have stated this should have gone to the tagging mailing list. What's not scalable about it - presumably that you have to tag a fall back Your suggestion as is only copes with 1 alternative, rather than gracefully falling back to less specific alternatives. every time you use the tag? What's an alternative that's more scalable, for someone who doesn't have the ability/time/whatever to setup a rendering system and produce their own custom maps? To come up with a list of options that things fall back to, this may not need to be in mapnik etc, but could be handled by a pre-processor. IMHO what I am (was?) advocating is somewhere in the middle, but closer to bottom up. True top down would be standardising all tags and forcing renderers to be compliant. Somewhat less so is a central list that renderers can optionally implement. I was only advocating a single tag that renderers should know how to deal with, leaving all the rest of the decisions to individuals. Pretty bottom up, if you ask me. And here you were complaining about me suggesting redundency on layer tags was a bad thing and you've basically done the same thing, except worst since you are making suggestions about dictating how renderers handle tags, rather than letting them make their own minds up about falling back to less specific tagging schemes. As I said before, this would be no better than adding an URI for the icon that should be displayed for POIs just because one or more rendered may not render all POI icons. some workshopping. Sure, maybe it was a dumb idea. But I don't think we can shoot down every idea on the basis that it's not comprehensive. Isn't that the point of this exercise, to fall back to something else if a more specific tag isn't currently handled, what if the fall back tag isn't handled. That's just an exercise in 2 unrendered tags instead of one. IMVHO, that approach is harmful in general (have you *seen* how many different tags are out there?), and ironic in this instance. They differ because of perceived need, renderers on the other hand have perceived needs in what they think should be rendered rather than users forcing things one way or the other. It may be heavy on code – I hadn't thought about the way Mapnik renders, for Mapnik, or more to the point osm2pgsql does a bunch of pre-processing on OSM data, you could easily supply code or psuedo code to make a lookup table in osm2pgsql handle fall back rather than tryng to do it in extra tags that just have to be processed regardless of if the server should render them or not. instance – but by definition it's light on people: it's a completely optional tag, there for those that want to use it. If you use it, you get some additional benefit, if you don't, you lose nothing. If I was proposing that everyone tag everything with multiple fallback tags, *that* would be heavy on people. No, that would be heavy on a person making a lookup table, but certainly not to the scale you are suggesting labour should be applied. Did everyone misunderstand my example this way? The thing is a reserve, not a park. It has grass, but no amenities. It only exists to protect the land for future development. People tag them as parks because that's the closest tag...but it's not ideal. My tagging for the future remark had nothing to do with future development, only future support of a reserve tag. Why is park not ideal if the current usage is a park? There is a lot of land that is reserved for roads in future if needed that has been taken over by land holders and they graze stock or cultivate it, the only difference is if the road is ever built the government doesn't need to aquire the land it just needs to evict the squatters. Should they render the same as a park because it's a reserve, but the land use is completely different. I guess I will have to investigate this further, but that's really not at all how I see OSM, and not how I think the public perceives it. The diehards on this list may all have their own renderers set up at home, but that's rare. For most people, the mapnik view *is* OSM, and switching it off would be dumping OSM's biggest selling point. The world has very much moved to a cloud model, whereas what you're proposing (download the data, render it using an offline client) is exactly the opposite of that. I just don't see that approach gaining traction any more. If anything, I would have thought you'd put more effort into custom rendering on the server, like cloudmade does. There is already attempts to shift rendering to the client side, there is a javascript site that does this, and now potlatch 2.0 is heading in the same direction. Just because mapnik is the way things are handled at present doesn't mean it will be 5 years from now. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
2009/12/18 Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com: But for the time being, if you want a custom rendering you will be using your own pc or server. If you are interested in a relatively simple If he wants to play about I have an instance of mapnik he can play with setup already. He could also play with cloudmade's style sheet editor... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
Steve Bennett wrote: IMVHO, that approach is harmful in general (have you *seen* how many different tags are out there?), and ironic in this instance. Yes, unless I'm missing something your proposal just adds the long list. If it's use *now *is a park, tag it as a park. When if (and that's a *big *if when talking about civil engineering projects) it changes use re-tag it then not before. Did everyone misunderstand my example this way? The thing is a reserve, not a park. It has grass, but no amenities. It only exists to protect the land for future development. People tag them as parks because that's the closest tag...but it's not ideal. My tagging for the future remark had nothing to do with future development, only future support of a reserve tag. Very unclear in your OP. Anyway... Tag for how you see it is now. If it's not a park, change it! If it doesn't render, put a request in. Your claimed solution: landuse=reserve fallback:leisure=park still won't render still needs to be requested it adds an extra tag. Like I said, I think you're chasing your tail. Also, I think this should be on the Tagging forum. Yeah, maybe. I thought it was slightly out of scope for that. In the end, OSM is a database, and how you are rendering a map is something accessory, as everyone can set up the rendering the way they want. It is the greatest strength of OSM that you can choose what kind of rendering you can do. I think the map should deemphasized at some point from the main site as more and more people want custom rendering. I guess I will have to investigate this further, but that's really not at all how I see OSM, and not how I think the public perceives it. The diehards on this list may all have their own renderers set up at home, but that's rare. For most people, the mapnik view *is* OSM, and switching it off would be dumping OSM's biggest selling point. The world has very much moved to a cloud model, whereas what you're proposing (download the data, render it using an offline client) is exactly the opposite of that. I just don't see that approach gaining traction any more. If anything, I would have thought you'd put more effort into custom rendering on the server, like cloudmade does. Of course, I could be completely wrong. That would at least explain why I find the response of make your own stylesheet so jarring to my original problem statement. Yes, they are. If the render of your choice doesn't render a key/tag,fix it yourself so that it does. Hmm, and I put so much effort into explaining the difference between a one-off solution and a scalable solution. I thought I'd get more than yes it is. You suggestion is as much a one-off solution. It's not a one fix, fixes all, because you'll have another tag in a different situation it won't render either, so you'll have to put in a request for it. And so on so forth... What is your understanding of a 'scalable' solution? *You *asked for opinions!?! - What do people think? Replies are in the negative because they think your idea is poor for the reasons stated. It's as simple as that. Constructive critism is great, and there were some good points raised. But by and large the response was not constructive. But only from your point of view. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
Then just start using your fallback tag. There's no need to tell the list about it. IMVHO, that approach is harmful in general (have you *seen* how many different tags are out there?), and ironic in this instance. Honestly, I don't see the harm in having lots of tags that everyone else can happily ignore. At least, not when they're added by hand. The only real harm is a small fraction of space in the database. When it comes to massive imports (tiger:*=*) or editor generated tags (created_by), yeah, it wastes enough space (and therefore processing time) to cause some harm. But the 1000 or so fallback tags you add to the database isn't going to really harm anyone. Yes, it's ironic in this instance. But that's because the idea of a fallback tag is ironic. In any case, your best bet would be to take this proposal directly to the developers of one or more renderers. It's not even a tagging issue. It's a renderer issue. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wiki Search does not work
On 12/16/2009 11:22 PM, Tirkon wrote: MediaWiki search is pretty weak in general. No problem at Wikipedia The problem might be that OpenStreetMap wiki is running an old version (1.13 vs 1.16 at wikipedia) of wikimedia. IIRC, search has been improved a lot. Who could update mediawiki? Thanks, N. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
2009/12/18 Anthony o...@inbox.org: Honestly, I don't see the harm in having lots of tags that everyone else can happily ignore. At least, not when they're added by hand. The only real harm is a small fraction of space in the database. When it comes to massive imports (tiger:*=*) or editor generated tags (created_by), yeah, it wastes enough space (and therefore processing time) to cause some harm. But the 1000 or so fallback tags you add to the database isn't going to really harm anyone. Except those tags are being removed as much as possible to reduce over heads... :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:41 AM, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.orgwrote: The quality of OpenStreetMap's work speaks for itself, but it seems that we need to speak about it too - especially now that Google is attempting to to appear as holding the moral high ground by using terms such as citizen cartographer that they rob of its meaning by conveniently forgetting to mention the license under which the contributed data is held. By submitting User Submissions to the Service, you give Google a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, royalty-free, and non-exclusive license to reproduce, adapt, modify, translate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display, distribute, and create derivative works of the User Submission. Compared to: You hereby grant to OSMF and any party that receives Your Contents a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable license to do any act that is restricted by copyright over anything within the Contents, whether in the original medium or any other. There's a big difference between giving rights only to Google and giving them to everyone. And the text you quote is only Draft 0.9. Considering that it's tantamount to requiring everyone to declare their contributions as public domain, I find it hard to imagine it'll be adopted. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
Instead of trying to counter the googlespeak wouldn't it be better to think about why they feel the need to do this kind of thing in the first place rather than sponsoring an OSM based venture. Similarly, why are companies like waze trying to start from scratch rather than using our data for realtime mashups? If it is because of the license then we should take the opportunity to make sure our new license is friendly to these kind of applications and uses as what is the point of creating a free map if only a minority of people are ever going to see it. Kevin 2009/12/17 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org The quality of OpenStreetMap's work speaks for itself, but it seems that we need to speak about it too snip ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
2009/12/18 Kevin Peat ke...@kevinpeat.com: If it is because of the license then we should take the opportunity to make sure our new license is friendly to these kind of applications and uses as what is the point of creating a free map if only a minority of people are ever going to see it. They want to be able to sell map data without giving anything away of real worth to anyone else, which if we wanted to support this kind of activity we would just spend out time giving data to Google for free. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] diff between planet daily and history files
Hi, Jaak Laineste wrote: I discovered that the files in http://planet.openstreetmap.org/daily/ and http://planet.openstreetmap.org/history/ are slightly different, If there are two changes to the same object in the scope of one day, then the normal diff will only contain the newset version, and the history diff will contain both. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Fri, 18 Dec 2009, Dave F. wrote: Replies are in the negative because they think your idea is poor for the reasons stated. It's as simple as that. unfortunately the contents of this list are dominated by people who are negative writing negative comments I note overall a lack of creative thinking on this list and a concentration of arguments which don't progress but become more entrenched as they continue ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
Steve Bennett wrote: Solution: tag it like this: landuse=reserve fallback:leisure=park Lets assume that your fallback tag isn't just a less specific type of object than the real tag (in that case, a tag hierarchy - as it is used with amenity=parking + parking=*, for example - would solve the problem). In this situation, a fallback is based on certain assumptions how renderers display a tag. It only works in your example because you make the assumption that parks are rendered as a green area or something like that, and that would be appropriate for reserves, too. But some other renderer might write park all over the area or do something else that makes the rendering completely inappropriate for the feature. What if I use beach as the fallback for my golf bunkers and get ice cone and beach ball icons, rather than the yellow area I had expected? Another problem with your approach is that it only works in renderers designed with the intention to display /everything/. I'd expect good rendering styles to be limited to a selected subset of the available information. Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] revert changesets??
Found by slashme today in the Nevada saltpans, but apparently been there over one year http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/slashme/diary/8968 all of these changesets 367363 266357 272488 293410 302378 621338 187907 324014 365985 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
It's the Burning Man Festival and it was recently a Featured Image on the wiki. (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Featured_Images/Jul-Sep_2009#Week_36) Kevin On 12/17/2009 2:30 PM, Liz wrote: Found by slashme today in the Nevada saltpans, but apparently been there over one year http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/slashme/diary/8968 all of these changesets 367363 266357 272488 293410 302378 621338 187907 324014 365985 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] set-mapnik-env stage of rendering tiles
set-mapnik-env customize-mapnik-map osm.xml I try it in cygwin bash on win and get: bash: set-mapnik-env: command not found You'll have to call ./set-mapnik-env ... But you don't need this anymore. just copy the inc/*.template to remove the .template suffix and customize the settings there. Then just point mapnik to the osm.xml, it will load the files from inc/. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] set-mapnik-env stage of rendering tiles
Peter Körner wrote: But you don't need this anymore. just copy the inc/*.template to remove the .template suffix and customize the settings there. Then just point mapnik to the osm.xml, it will load the files from inc/. Or, run the generate-xml.py script. PS: It's getting slightly annoying that this thread is on 3 mailing lists, with 3 sets of answers, and an OP that doesn't appear to read the answers. -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu
Andreas Labres wrote: Patrick from talk-at found this by chance: http://openmaps.eu/ They seem to be reinventing the wheel, somehow... I sent their proeminent members (papa71, kepenu, KiVi, peter68, Trackman and BigMick) a gentle enquiry through their forum's internal mail system; that's the best I could do for lack of any other contact option. We'll see if they reply. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging Greenways (was: Re: Good routing vs legal routing (was: Path vsfootwayvs cycleway vs...))
Sam Vekemans wrote: Where the only way i know to map it is to use a relation and call it route=greenway and dont have it render on the cyclemap. Just map the sections as appropriate. Greenway is the US/Canadianism for cycleway. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 6:16 AM, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: that, and that would be appropriate for reserves, too. But some other renderer might write park all over the area or do something else that makes the rendering completely inappropriate for the feature. What if I use beach as the fallback for my golf bunkers and get ice cone and beach ball icons, rather than the yellow area I had expected? Another problem with your approach is that it only works in renderers designed with the intention to display /everything/. I'd expect good rendering styles to be limited to a selected subset of the available information. Two good arguments against my proposal. Richard Fairhurst wrote: This is just redundancy on a massive, massive scale. You're inserting the same hint millions of times when you should be inserting it once. If landuse=park always approximates to leisure=park, then that either needs to be in the renderer stylesheets themselves (and it'd be one line in the Mapnik stylesheet or osm2pgsql setup), or in a general equivalence document that all the renderers can use (Shalabh's tree thingy). Rendering information, of any stripe, does not go in the database. That is absolute. More good points. So the right way to solve it is to lower the barrier to getting Your Favourite Feature rendered. Fortunately this is happening. Yes. Rather than the right way to solve it being, say, do what the rest of us do, install mapnik and start hacking on stylesheets. Cartagen is an instant-gratification JavaScript renderer. It's awesome. Halcyon is the Flash one I'm working on and if you'll permit the immodesty, I'd say it's ok, too. I wouldn't say it's ok, I'd say it's great - even at this early stage. Very, very cool indeed. And it totally works for reducing the barrier to entry for tweaking rendering: I already used it to demonstrate a proposal for divided ways. However, by instant gratification, I don't just mean I get to see, on my desktop, the map rendered how I want. I mean, I get to know that *everyone* will see the map rendered nicely. I was thinking last night that there are four different goals/approaches that one could be heading for in helping OSM: 1) Doing stuff that helps you directly. For example, tweaking a stylesheet to render a map for yourself, adding tags that are only meaningful to you. 2) Doing stuff that helps others directly. For example, mapping a new area in a standard way, adding styles to a standard stylesheet. 3) Doing stuff that helps others to help themselves. For example, documenting ways to install the software, adding renderer support for obscure tags. 4) Doing stuff that helps others to do things of benefit to others. For example, working on improving processes, documenting tags, trying to increase compatibility between renderers etc. Some of the solutions proposed in this thread were essentially 1. Whereas I'm mostly interested in 4 - it's just what motivates me. Getting a nicely rendered map is nice. But multiplying that up, so that everyone is helping everyone get nicely rendered maps - that's what motivates me. This leads to a virtuous circle: one renderer supports the tag - tag more widely used - more renderer support - and so on. Yeah, I'm still exploring this circle and looking at ways it can be improved. Maybe it can be made more efficient, maybe it can happen with less mistakes, maybe it can happen faster...etc. Better feedback in both directions will help. Andy first started rendering ncn_ref on OpenCycleMap several years ago, when OCM was just a little local project rather than the world-conquering behemoth it is today. Now there are cycle renderers for local areas, for Garmins, for routing, and so on. It really works. Yeah, cloudmade routing is awesome. So, thanks Tobias and Richard for very constructive responses which convince me that my proposed fallback:* tag is too much of a hack to be worth pursuing. I'll keep investigating the idea of a centralised rules table though. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
should be deleted then. Burning man follows a no trace policy. as alternative it must be at least tagged different to disappear from maps. On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Kevin Samples ksamp...@uga.edu wrote: It's the Burning Man Festival and it was recently a Featured Image on the wiki. (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Featured_Images/Jul-Sep_2009#Week_36) Kevin On 12/17/2009 2:30 PM, Liz wrote: Found by slashme today in the Nevada saltpans, but apparently been there over one year http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/slashme/diary/8968 all of these changesets 367363 266357 272488 293410 302378 621338 187907 324014 365985 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Projection for processed_p.shp?
Hi, Alexrk wrote: The projection is spherical mercator (900913), you can download a .PRJ file from the menu on http://spatialreference.org/ref/sr-org/6627/ I've tried it in ArcMap - doesn't fit with a regular Mercator .prj file. Yes; regular Mercator is something other than spherical Mercator. I don't know, what projection this file actually is :( processed_p.shp is spherical mercator (properly EPSG:3857, formerly EPSG:900913, and erroneously EPSG:3857). If you don't like it, you can use ogr2ogr to reproject the shape to something else. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Projection for processed_p.shp?
Hi, Frederik Ramm wrote: processed_p.shp is spherical mercator (properly EPSG:3857, formerly EPSG:900913, and erroneously EPSG:3857). The last bit should've been 3785. It was bound to happen. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Mapnik-users] Projection for processed_p.shp?
EPSG, too, seems to have problems with tagging. My understanding is that that officially it is nowadays EPSG:3785, see http://spatialreference.org/ref/epsg/3785/ However, that code is not widely supported yet. I believe EPSG:900913 is still the most common in use. Best to keep the spatialrefererence page open and learn to give thy cryptic WKT or Proj4 strings if nothing else helps. -Jukka Rahkonen- -Alkuperäinen viesti- Lähettäjä: mapnik-users-boun...@lists.berlios.de puolesta: Frederik Ramm Lähetetty: pe 18.12.2009 0:43 Vastaanottaja: Alexrk Kopio: talk@openstreetmap.org; mapnik-us...@lists.berlios.de Aihe: Re: [Mapnik-users] [OSM-talk] Projection for processed_p.shp? Hi, Frederik Ramm wrote: processed_p.shp is spherical mercator (properly EPSG:3857, formerly EPSG:900913, and erroneously EPSG:3857). The last bit should've been 3785. It was bound to happen. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Mapnik-users mailing list mapnik-us...@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/mapnik-users ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 7:46 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: I'll keep investigating the idea of a centralised rules table though. Cool - if so, it might be interesting to see how this could relate to the wiki also, not just renderers. Good luck :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contribution graph
There was a similar study that has been done in Wikipedia - and it got similar results. Then somebody else did some closer studies, and found that the last edit may have been done by one of the 10%, but they were often cosmetic cleanups. The bulk of creation was done by other users. I wonder how much this applies to mapping. 2009/12/18 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com: The graph looks the same if I remove the top 5 user accounts (all greater than 1% of the data and between them totalling 39% of all way data) however the amount contributed by the top 10% of users (ignoring the top 5) reduces to 91.5%. So basically the 90/10 rule appears to apply for normal contributions made by the humble mapper. This is in line with what I see locally in my own patch. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] tagging Greenways (was: Re: Good routing vs legal routing (was: Path vsfootwayvs cycleway vs...))
Thanks Paul, I did answer, but am saving it in my drafts folder sent it to others for peer review 1st. Cheers, Sam Vekemans Across Canada Trails On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Sam Vekemans wrote: Where the only way i know to map it is to use a relation and call it route=greenway and dont have it render on the cyclemap. Just map the sections as appropriate. Greenway is the US/Canadianism for cycleway. ___ Tagging mailing list tagg...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Archos 5
Hello, I see that the newest Archos has a built-in GPS. Does anyone know if it is possible to record traces with it? Is it possible to use other maps besides the Tele-Atlas one that they sell? Thanks in adavance, N. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion: fallback tag
2009/12/18 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com: On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 7:46 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: I'll keep investigating the idea of a centralised rules table though. Cool - if so, it might be interesting to see how this could relate to the wiki also, not just renderers. Good luck :) +1, I thought people were already working on some kind of documentation consolidation based on tags not just what's in the wiki? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
2009/12/18 Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com: should be deleted then. Burning man follows a no trace policy. as alternative it must be at least tagged different to disappear from maps. This was discussed a while back, OSM isn't about the here and now there is some historical information and a start/stop time or just a stop time in terms of rendering would be useful for not just burning man but things like past sporting events if infrastructure is torn down but want to see what the map looked like in the past for things like geotagged imagery. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
2009/12/18 Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com: As I was considering doing a similar thing for Glastonbury, I was wondering what the consensus on mapping temporary (but regular) structures? Most people seem to tag it as if it exists all the time, I think in the case of burning man, it tends to shift to a different location each year, although there is a music festival I've been told about is on the same location but the vendors are different each year or the layout might alter slightly. This goes back to discussions on how to tag the 4th dimension that was brought up some time ago. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/4th_Dimension ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Archos 5
2009/12/18 Nakor nakor...@gmail.com: Hello, I see that the newest Archos has a built-in GPS. Does anyone know if it is possible to record traces with it? Is it possible to use other maps besides the Tele-Atlas one that they sell? Is that the one that uses android as the OS? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contribution graph
2009/12/18 Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com: often cosmetic cleanups. The bulk of creation was done by other users. I wonder how much this applies to mapping. I've pondered about this before but I came to the conclusion that mapping is a little different than adding knowledge to a wiki. You can always add map details by travelling about, or based on new sets of data imported, or new aerial imagery available. However once your knowledge on a topic has been written it's unlikely you will learn much more on that topic and the number of topics you know about will possibly also be limited. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu
Yeah! Maybe we have to increase our efforts to announce that we exist? I joined OSM in May 2008, but would have done it earlier if I had found out about it before. /Erik Andreas Labres skrev: They seem to be reinventing the wheel, somehow... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu
I just found their links page (http://openmaps.eu/links) where they link to OpenStreetMap, so they are at least aware of our project. /Erik Erik Lundin skrev: Yeah! Maybe we have to increase our efforts to announce that we exist? I joined OSM in May 2008, but would have done it earlier if I had found out about it before. /Erik Andreas Labres skrev: They seem to be reinventing the wheel, somehow... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Archos 5
On 12/17/2009 08:53 PM, John Smith wrote: 2009/12/18 Nakor nakor...@gmail.com: Hello, I see that the newest Archos has a built-in GPS. Does anyone know if it is possible to record traces with it? Is it possible to use other maps besides the Tele-Atlas one that they sell? Is that the one that uses android as the OS? Yes it is. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
