[OSM-talk-fr] Article OpenStreetMapsur Wikipédia en breton

[Christian Rogel]

J'ai le plaisir de vous signaler que j'ai mis en ligne un article de 13000 
signes consacré à OpenStreetMap sur le wikipédia en breton.
Il est loin d'être complet et n'est que la traduction partielle de l'article en 
français correspondant?

Il y a 76 versions en différentes langues sur Wikipédia. La version française 
est assez bien élaborée.
La version occitane est encore sommaire et la catalane un peu plus fournie.
Les versions basques et bretonnes ont un niveau de longueur honorable.

https://br.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap
OpenStreetMap
br.wikipedia.org
V


Christian  R .


PS : La version gallo finira par venir, mais déplacer les panneaux complique la 
mise à jour ;-)
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Re: [Talk-se] New MapRoulette Challenge: Sweden - Add Highways

[Anders Torger]

Jag tror de använder samma metoder vartän i världen de verkar, dvs de 
bryr sig inte kolla upp länders lokala förutsättningar att använda öppen 
data från lantmäterier för att göra effektivare kartläggning med högre 
kvalité. Det är lite synd, och Sverige är ju långt ifrån unikt om att ha 
öppen data från myndigheterna.


Rent principiellt är det emellertid inget fel på deras metod, 
maproulette är väletablerat, och man brukar inom OSM inte ha något emot 
att någon först gör enklare kartläggning som någon annan får senare 
uppdatera med bättre kvalitet. Det gör det förstås lite mer besvärligt 
för oss som jobbar med NVDB att gå in och uppdatera än om det inte 
funnits något där från början, men det är nog något man måste leva med 
och inte låta det gå en på nerverna. Det är inte första och knappast 
sista gången någon startar ett parallellt projekt som gör samma sak som 
ett existerande, fast med lägre kvalitet och effektivitet.


Utmaningen vi har med NVDB-projektet är att det är rätt hög tröskel att 
sätta sig in i det, det kräver att man är noggrann, jobbar med ett 
riktigt verktyg som JOSM (inte webb-editorn), och inte minst är beredd 
att lägga ner mycket tid så man faktiskt slutför det man börjar på så 
man faktiskt har dokumenterad koll på var det är genomgånget och inte. 
Det är rätt få OSM-kartläggare som klarar av det. Enkla 
maprouletteutmatningar är något alla lekmanna-kartläggare klarar.


Å andra sidan tycker jag det är bättre om maproulette-utmaningarna 
siktar in sig på saker som inte finns i NVDB, som byggnader och stigar, 
men folk tycker väl det är roligare att kartlägga vägar och kalkera 
NVDB-grafiken i webb-editorn (been there done that), och när jag 
använder OSM som slutanvändare som cyklist ute obygden är det ju så att 
hellre har man vägen inritad i kartan helt utan taggar, än ingen väg 
alls. Men allra helst vill jag förstås ha vetskapen och tryggheten om 
att hela kartan håller minst samma lägstanivå som 
lantmäteriets/vägverkets kartor, och det är det NVDB-projektet handlar 
om.


Att få orkar sätta sig in i det och hjälpa till måste vi nog tyvärr leva 
med. Det skadar dock inte att vid såna här tillfällen informera om att 
vi finns förstås, man vet ju aldrig, ibland är det kanske nån som hoppar 
på :-).


/Anders

On 2023-04-21 17:35, Markku Siipola via Talk-se wrote:

Jag och några andra håller på med uppdatering av vägnätet från 
NVDB-data 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/Sweden_highway_import/Import_guidelines). 
Arbetet tar mycket tid om man vill få kvalité. TomTom verkar tro att 
ett sådant omfattande arbetet kan lösas med Mapproulette. Men det 
räcker inte att bara rita in vägar från flyg- eller satellitfoto! Vägen 
måste få rätta taggar på rätta avsnitt. Och uppgifter på taggar måste 
hämtas från nvdb (om man inte har lokal kännedom).


Jag kanske har fel, men jag tycker det verkar som att Tomtom tror det 
finns en "quick-fix" på uppdatering av vägnätet i osm-Sverige.


/Markku

Den 2023-04-21 kl. 15:34, skrev John Bäckstrand:
Jag kollade lite snabbt, och nej det verkar inte handla om motorvägar 
utan snarare motsatsen: grusvägar / servicevägar!


Felöversatt kanske?

/John B

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 3:33 PM Snusmumriken 
 wrote: Jag ställer mig lite frågande 
till denhär utmaningen. För finns det

faktiskt motorvägar i Sverige som inte finns medtagna i OSM?

On Fri, 2023-04-21 at 13:13 +, Salim Baidoun wrote:

Hej Svenska OSM samfundet!
Det här är Salim från TomTom igen. Idag vill jag dela med er en
MapRoulette-utmaning, relevant för Sverige - Lägg till Motortrafikvej
:MapRoulette , och här hittar du användbara uppdaterade leads för att
förbättra och ansluta vägar.
Målet är att identifiera och lägga till en eller flera saknade vägar
vid behov. Vi har gjort en analys genom att jämföra TomToms egna data
med OSM-vägnätet. Du kan hitta mer information på vår SwedenGitHub-
sida och vår MapRoulette-utmaningsbeskrivning, som kan hjälpa dig att
lösa uppgifterna.
Om du har några frågor eller kommentarer, vänligen kontakta mig
och/eller lämna dina kommentarer om MapRoulette-uppgifterna om det
behövs. Jag önskar dig en underbar helg och trevlig redigering!
Hälsningar
Salim A. Baidoun /Community & Partnerships - Global / Community
Engagement


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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed automated edit of some barrier=kerb kerb=raised nodes (forum crosspost)

[osmuser63783 via talk]

Hi all

Apologies if this doesn't show correctly as a reply to the previous mail, I've 
only just signed up to the mailing list. Also for the silly pseudonym! I set up 
my OSM account two years ago to make one edit and never thought it would turn 
into a hobby!

> on the shared node between the footway and a road ?

Yes, I'm proposing an automated edit that concerns the shared node between a 
footway and a road. Of course highway=crossing kerb=* is perfectly acceptable 
tagging, I am not proposing any changes related to that. The vast majority of 
nodes that I am proposing to remove barrier=kerb from do not have 
highway=crossing.

> I propose a simpler logic: highway=crossing + barrier=* is an error -> check 
> a series of cases to see if it is correct to mechanically remove barrier=* 
> (for me : ok)

I agree that removing barrier=* from highway=crossing is safe but that is a 
separate problem. There is not much overlap between that and the problem I am 
describing.

> I don't understand the mix
> kerb=* (raised or not) without a highway=crossing is a kerb at this location 
> and is thus a barrier=kerb or a missing highway=crossing

When a footway meets a road and the kerb is not lowered, StreetComplete adds 
kerb=raised, by itself, without highway=crossing, so that kerb=raised is the 
only tag on the node. The developer of StreetComplete did not want to add a 
highway=crossing tag, because there are people who say that highway=crossing 
should only be added when there is some infrastructure. It would equally be 
wrong to add crossing=no because that suggests that it is impossible or illegal 
to cross. Therefore, StreetComplete only adds kerb=raised.

Is this the best way to tag this? I don't know. The developer of StreetComplete 
is open to changing it, and this is being discussed here: 
https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/tagging-kerbs-on-crossings/9290/24

> you forget all values other than kerb=raised
> you forget the highway=service which have the same problem

I am proposing a mechanical edit only to nodes where I am 100% sure that the 
barrier=kerb is wrong.

I am deliberately excluding values other than kerb=raised because it has been 
pointed out to me that barrier=kerb kerb=lowered legitimately occurs on some 
residential roads (the cars have to drive over the kerb). So barrier=kerb on 
roads with any other values of kerb=* in my view need to be reviewed on a case 
by case basis.I also imagine that to reach some highway=service you have to 
drive over a kerb. So these would also need to be reviewed case by case.

The cases where I am sure the barrier=kerb is wrong are those where 
StreetComplete added kerb=raised and then later someone added barrier=kerb in 
iD, following the validator suggestion. kerb=raised is the only value of kerb= 
that StreetComplete adds without a crossing tag. It also doesn't ask this quest 
about service roads or motorways (I checked the code), so there is no reason to 
include this in my initial Overpass query that identifies candidate nodes.

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Andy Mabbett]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 at 13:06, Mateusz Konieczny via talk
 wrote:

> Apr 20, 2023, 21:54 by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:

> shop = vaping → shop = e-cigarette> shop = vape_store → shop = e-cigarette

> "vape" seems to be the more widely-used term, in the UK.
>
> but it is the same shop type, right?

There is clearly a high degree of overlap. I don't use either, so
cannot say whether there is synonymy, nor which, if any, might be a
subset of the other.

> Note that https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=e-cigarette is 
> established
> value - do you think it is bad/misleading/unclear enough that we should have 
> both
> shop = vape and shop = e-cigarette despite them being synonymous?

I don't believe that the wiki is regarded by the community as
authoritative. Do you have evidence that it is? Or that the particular
page which you cie is the result of a community consensus?

[other responses acknowledged]

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-se] New MapRoulette Challenge: Sweden - Add Highways

[Markku Siipola via Talk-se]

Jag och några andra håller på med uppdatering av vägnätet från NVDB-data 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/Sweden_highway_import/Import_guidelines). 
Arbetet tar mycket tid om man vill få kvalité. TomTom verkar tro att ett 
sådant omfattande arbetet kan lösas med Mapproulette. Men det räcker 
inte att bara rita in vägar från flyg- eller satellitfoto! Vägen måste 
få rätta taggar på rätta avsnitt. Och uppgifter på taggar måste hämtas 
från nvdb (om man inte har lokal kännedom).


Jag kanske har fel, men jag tycker det verkar som att Tomtom tror det 
finns en "quick-fix" på uppdatering av vägnätet i osm-Sverige.


/Markku

Den 2023-04-21 kl. 15:34, skrev John Bäckstrand:
Jag kollade lite snabbt, och nej det verkar inte handla om motorvägar 
utan snarare motsatsen: grusvägar / servicevägar!


Felöversatt kanske?

/John B

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 3:33 PM Snusmumriken 
 wrote:


Jag ställer mig lite frågande till denhär utmaningen. För finns det
faktiskt motorvägar i Sverige som inte finns medtagna i OSM?

On Fri, 2023-04-21 at 13:13 +, Salim Baidoun wrote:
> Hej Svenska OSM samfundet!
> Det här är Salim från TomTom igen. Idag vill jag dela med er en
> MapRoulette-utmaning, relevant för Sverige - Lägg till
Motortrafikvej
> :MapRoulette , och här hittar du användbara uppdaterade leads
för att
> förbättra och ansluta vägar.
> Målet är att identifiera och lägga till en eller flera saknade vägar
> vid behov. Vi har gjort en analys genom att jämföra TomToms egna
data
> med OSM-vägnätet. Du kan hitta mer information på vår SwedenGitHub-
> sida och vår MapRoulette-utmaningsbeskrivning, som kan hjälpa
dig att
> lösa uppgifterna.
> Om du har några frågor eller kommentarer, vänligen kontakta mig
> och/eller lämna dina kommentarer om MapRoulette-uppgifterna om det
> behövs. Jag önskar dig en underbar helg och trevlig redigering!
> Hälsningar
> Salim A. Baidoun /Community & Partnerships - Global / Community
> Engagement
>
>
> ___
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> Talk-se@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-se


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--
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Apr 21, 2023, 15:08 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

>
>
> Am Fr., 21. Apr. 2023 um 14:08 Uhr schrieb Andy Townsend <> 
> ajt1...@gmail.com> >:
>
>> On 21/04/2023 12:17, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
>>  We're actually talking about the "long tail" of shop values - genuine, 
>>  perfectly descriptive, perfectly valid values, like "shop=whisky" that 
>>  someone mentioned on IRC this morning. Changing that to something 
>>  generic without recording the extra detail somewhere (and communicating 
>>  to data consumers where that extra detail has moved to) is essentially 
>>  low-grade vandalism - removing detail from OSM.  It devalues the hard 
>>  work of the people who surveyed these things in the first place.
>>
>
>
> whole-heartedly agree, it also makes it hard to impossible to "organically" 
> introduce new classes/types via mapping, because as soon as you add it 
> someone monitoring some qa tool comes along and changes the specific value to 
> something established but not so specific or sometimes even not fitting. 
> These activities are sometimes called "gardening", but in OSM it isn't 
> completely clear what is weed and what is crop, so we better make it even 
> clearer that this kind of "gardening" should not be performed.
>
I agree!

shop=whisky (or shop=beer) should be either
- documented as valid and welcome
- handled by something like shop=alcohol alcohol=beer
- left alone

Retagging them to shop=alcohol and losing detail is not good way to spend time,
flattening to shop=yes would be obviously even worse

but we do not need (theorethical examples ahead this time)
both shop=beer and shop=beers
shop=piwo (shop=beer I guess)
shop=monopolowy (shop=alcohol)
shop=alkohol (shop=alcohol)
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Re: [Talk-se] New MapRoulette Challenge: Sweden - Add Highways

[John Bäckstrand]

Jag kollade lite snabbt, och nej det verkar inte handla om motorvägar utan
snarare motsatsen: grusvägar / servicevägar!

Felöversatt kanske?

/John B

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 3:33 PM Snusmumriken 
wrote:

> Jag ställer mig lite frågande till denhär utmaningen. För finns det
> faktiskt motorvägar i Sverige som inte finns medtagna i OSM?
>
> On Fri, 2023-04-21 at 13:13 +, Salim Baidoun wrote:
> > Hej Svenska OSM samfundet!
> > Det här är Salim från TomTom igen. Idag vill jag dela med er en
> > MapRoulette-utmaning, relevant för Sverige - Lägg till Motortrafikvej
> > :MapRoulette , och här hittar du användbara uppdaterade leads för att
> > förbättra och ansluta vägar.
> > Målet är att identifiera och lägga till en eller flera saknade vägar
> > vid behov. Vi har gjort en analys genom att jämföra TomToms egna data
> > med OSM-vägnätet. Du kan hitta mer information på vår SwedenGitHub-
> > sida och vår MapRoulette-utmaningsbeskrivning, som kan hjälpa dig att
> > lösa uppgifterna.
> > Om du har några frågor eller kommentarer, vänligen kontakta mig
> > och/eller lämna dina kommentarer om MapRoulette-uppgifterna om det
> > behövs. Jag önskar dig en underbar helg och trevlig redigering!
> > Hälsningar
> > Salim A. Baidoun /Community & Partnerships - Global / Community
> > Engagement
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-se mailing list
> > Talk-se@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-se
>
>
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>


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Re: [Talk-se] New MapRoulette Challenge: Sweden - Add Highways

[Snusmumriken]

Jag ställer mig lite frågande till denhär utmaningen. För finns det
faktiskt motorvägar i Sverige som inte finns medtagna i OSM?

On Fri, 2023-04-21 at 13:13 +, Salim Baidoun wrote:
> Hej Svenska OSM samfundet!
> Det här är Salim från TomTom igen. Idag vill jag dela med er en
> MapRoulette-utmaning, relevant för Sverige - Lägg till Motortrafikvej
> :MapRoulette , och här hittar du användbara uppdaterade leads för att
> förbättra och ansluta vägar.
> Målet är att identifiera och lägga till en eller flera saknade vägar
> vid behov. Vi har gjort en analys genom att jämföra TomToms egna data
> med OSM-vägnätet. Du kan hitta mer information på vår SwedenGitHub-
> sida och vår MapRoulette-utmaningsbeskrivning, som kan hjälpa dig att
> lösa uppgifterna.
> Om du har några frågor eller kommentarer, vänligen kontakta mig
> och/eller lämna dina kommentarer om MapRoulette-uppgifterna om det
> behövs. Jag önskar dig en underbar helg och trevlig redigering!
> Hälsningar
> Salim A. Baidoun /Community & Partnerships - Global / Community
> Engagement
>  
>  
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-se


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[Talk-se] New MapRoulette Challenge: Sweden - Add Highways

[Salim Baidoun]

Hej Svenska OSM samfundet!
Det här är Salim från TomTom igen. Idag vill jag dela med er en 
MapRoulette-utmaning, relevant för Sverige - Lägg till Motortrafikvej : 
MapRoulette , och här hittar 
du användbara uppdaterade leads för att förbättra och ansluta vägar.

Målet är att identifiera och lägga till en eller flera saknade vägar vid behov. 
Vi har gjort en analys genom att jämföra TomToms egna data med OSM-vägnätet. Du 
kan hitta mer information på vår Sweden 
GitHub-sida och 
vår MapRoulette-utmaningsbeskrivning, som kan hjälpa dig att lösa uppgifterna.

Om du har några frågor eller kommentarer, vänligen kontakta mig och/eller lämna 
dina kommentarer om MapRoulette-uppgifterna om det behövs. Jag önskar dig en 
underbar helg och trevlig redigering!

Hälsningar
Salim A. Baidoun / Community & Partnerships - Global / Community Engagement


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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 21. Apr. 2023 um 14:08 Uhr schrieb Andy Townsend :

> On 21/04/2023 12:17, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
> We're actually talking about the "long tail" of shop values - genuine,
> perfectly descriptive, perfectly valid values, like "shop=whisky" that
> someone mentioned on IRC this morning. Changing that to something
> generic without recording the extra detail somewhere (and communicating
> to data consumers where that extra detail has moved to) is essentially
> low-grade vandalism - removing detail from OSM.  It devalues the hard
> work of the people who surveyed these things in the first place.



whole-heartedly agree, it also makes it hard to impossible to "organically"
introduce new classes/types via mapping, because as soon as you add it
someone monitoring some qa tool comes along and changes the specific value
to something established but not so specific or sometimes even not fitting.
These activities are sometimes called "gardening", but in OSM it isn't
completely clear what is weed and what is crop, so we better make it even
clearer that this kind of "gardening" should not be performed.
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[OSM-talk-fr] State of the Map France 2023 : inscriptions ouvertes!

[Donat ROBAUX]

Bonjour,

Les inscriptions pour le State of the Map sont enfin ouvertes. Nous
serons très heureux de nous retrouver du 09 au 11 juin 2023 à Marseille.

https://sotm2023.openstreetmap.fr/inscription

Nous n'avons pas changé la formule des années précédentes:
- un coût symbolique d'inscription
- le repas du samedi proposé à prix coûtant
- la possibilité de mettre un peu plus si vous le souhaitez

Concernant l'hébergement, nous avons pu avoir 60 chambres CROUS à 100
€ les 3 nuits ou 5 studios à 50 €/nuit. Les disponibilités étant
restreintes, si vous désirez un hébergement à prix coûtant,
inscrivez-vous maintenant. Depuis le lancement de l'inscription, déjà
6 chambres ont été réservées.

Inscrivez-vous dès maintenant!

Donat pour l'équipe d'organisation
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Apr 21, 2023, 14:09 by ajt1...@gmail.com:

> On 21/04/2023 12:17, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
>
>> It helps because maintaining lists of many many many rarely used meaningless 
>> values
>> in every single QA tool and validator and tool doing this is annoying at 
>> best.
>>
>
>
> For the avoidance of doubt we are NOT talking about meaningless values here.
>
In this section it was about specifically values having no info, like 
shop=retail
or shop=local_shop or shop=??? (unless it actually has some value that would
be lost? like in shop=luxury case? but that is why I am asking here)

not that this note was NOT about long tail like shop=coffins or shop=oysters
or shop=nut_store that carry some value that would be lost
by flattening it to shop=yes

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Apr 20, 2023, 21:54 by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:

> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 at 19:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk
>  wrote:
>
>> shop = chandler → shop = ship_chandler
>>
>
> In the UK at least, chandlers are more likely to cater for boats than ships.
>
removing from list then

>> shop = vaping → shop = e-cigarette> shop = vape_store → shop = e-cigarette
>>
>
> "vape" seems to be the more widely-used term, in the UK.
>
but it is the same shop type, right?
Note that https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=e-cigarette is 
established
value - do you think it is bad/misleading/unclear enough that we should have 
both
shop = vape and shop = e-cigarette despite them being synonymous?

>> shop = collectibles → shop = collector
>>
>
> I have yet to see a shop that sells collectors; "collectibles" seems fine
>
the same: see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=collector
>> shop = unattended → shop = vacant
>>
>
> "Unattended" is not "vacant"; it can mean a place where one pays in an
> "honesty box", or uses vending machines.
>
good point that it should not be repeated without checking again
but currently every single use was added in meaning shop=vacant
(single mapper)

>> shop = for_rent → shop = vacant
>>
>
> Or is this a shop where one rents equipment? Or an apartment?
>
removed from list, back to asking mappers what they meant
(not sure when I will get to it, feel free to ask on changeset comments/via 
notes)

>> shop = beauty33 → shop = beauty
>>
>
> Is "Beauty33" a name or brand?
>
very unlikely, trailing 2 or 3 after actual value is a common typo for some 
reason
as one of very low use values with extra trailing debris I just fixed it
in https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/803800872/history
and removed from bot list


>> shop = herbs → shop = herbalist
>>
>
> Not necessarily the same; a herbalist does not sell cooking herbs.
>
removed from list, will ask mappers whether they meant
shop=herbalist or shop=spices (somewhere in year 2033 probably at 
current rate, so feel free to find who added it and ask them
before I will do this)
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[OSM-talk-fr] Fwd: Maintenance - 26 April 2023 00h-16h CEST 2x20min environ

[Marc_marc]

Bonjour,

pour les nocturnes, il y aura une maaintenance
affectant le site web osm.org, l'api et d'autres
services lié le 00h-16h 2x20min environ

Cordialement,
Marc
 Message transféré 
Sujet : [OSM-talk] Upcoming Maintenance - 26 April 2023
Date : Fri, 21 Apr 2023 10:55:20 +0100
De : Grant Slater 
Pour : Talk Openstreetmap , 
annou...@openstreetmap.org


Hi OpenStreetMap,

The OpenStreetMap.org website, API and some related services will be
unavailable for short periods between 00:00 CEST (GMT/UTC+2) and 06:00
CEST on Wednesday 26th April 2023 due to scheduled network
maintenance.

It is likely there may be 2 outages during the window which could last
up to 20mins.

Sorry for the short notice. Our ISP only recently notified us of the
upcoming maintenance.

Twitter announcement:
https://twitter.com/OSM_Tech/status/1649349339800633344
Follow us for updates.

Kind regards,

Grant
Part of OpenStreetMap Operations Team

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Andy Townsend]

On 21/04/2023 12:17, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
It helps because maintaining lists of many many many rarely used 
meaningless values
in every single QA tool and validator and tool doing this is annoying 
at best.



For the avoidance of doubt we are NOT talking about meaningless values 
here.  We're also not talking about obvious misspellings, like the 
previously mentioned "shop=Chandlery" (that entry has a website that 
confirms that the tag is just misspelt).  We're not talking about 
genuine duplicates ("shop=healthcare" vs "shop=health_care") where 
literally no-one is going to assume a different meaning.


We're actually talking about the "long tail" of shop values - genuine, 
perfectly descriptive, perfectly valid values, like "shop=whisky" that 
someone mentioned on IRC this morning. Changing that to something 
generic without recording the extra detail somewhere (and communicating 
to data consumers where that extra detail has moved to) is essentially 
low-grade vandalism - removing detail from OSM.  It devalues the hard 
work of the people who surveyed these things in the first place.


You previously changed "shop=luxury" to "shop=yes" and then changed it 
back when I complained (see e.g. 
https://osm.mapki.com/history/node/2642857189 and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/134837986 ).  As I said on that 
changeset, surely some of those values could be set to better actual 
values.  https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2642857046 is part of a 
chain https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1u3W with variable tagging; the most 
popular of those would be better than "luxury", but either would be 
better than "yes": https://osm.mapki.com/history/node/2642857046 .  Some 
of the others (the unnamed ones) may benefit from a resurvey since they 
were added in 2014.


The fact that you find it "annoying" to deal with this detail in OSM is 
extremely disappointing.  I would have expected better.  It really isn't 
rocket science to deal with the "shop" key - it's just one key with a 
set of values.  If you want a challenge, try "historic" (though that is 
also possible: 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#17/-25.00937/135.17762 ).


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Marc_marc]

Le 21.04.23 à 11:29, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
Am Fr., 21. Apr. 2023 um 11:19 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
>:



A rendering issue.

Why not have a generic symbol for 'shop' and use that for any value of
shop that you don't have a specific symbol for?



this is a deliberate decision, because it would provide positive 
feedback


I don't see how "hidde" is positive feedback

a lot of things are hidden on the standard render,
it has many different meanings
- shop=yes is not precise enough for the rendering team (but 
highway=road is precise enough)

- you made a typo shhop=* for example
- the tag is not present enough (craf=* or on the contrary there
is a fear of overload (emergency=defibrillator) or nobody has
yet written the necessary code




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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Apr 21, 2023, 10:17 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

>
>
> Am Fr., 21. Apr. 2023 um 09:47 Uhr schrieb Jochen Topf <> joc...@remote.org> 
> >:
>
>> On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 10:11:49PM +0100, Andy Townsend wrote:
>>  > To change "shop=veryrarevalue" where it was correct to
>>  > "shop=lessrarevalue"without preserving the detail somehow loses detail 
>> from
>>  > OSM and is therefore by definition a Bad Thing.  Some of the entries on 
>> your
>>  
>>  I disagree with that blanket "Bad Thing". It is much more likely that a
>>  general map will show shop=lessrarevalue with a specific icon than
>>  shop=veryrarevalue. So if you are using shop=veryrarevalue instead of
>>  shop=lessrarevalue you might lose detail in the database, but in
>>  practice you will gain detail in actual use.
>>
>
>
> what we actually want is both, a reasonably generic/specific value for a 
> "main" class, and potentially additional tag(s) for details.
> Rather than just replacing shop=veryrarevalue with shop=moregenericvalue, we 
> should probably also add moregenericvalue=veryrarevalue
>
I agree, for example 

shop=socks vs shop=clothes clothes=socks
shop=firewood vs shop=fuel fuel=wood
shop=dog_grooming vs shop=pet_grooming pet=dog
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Apr 21, 2023, 11:18 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:

>
> On 21/4/23 04:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
>
>> bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, 
>> three over 100 times, many used less)
>>
>> For quite long time I am trying to use OSM-based products as Google
>> Maps replacement. One of major issues are POIs (in many apects). Small
>> part of that are POIs marked but in way that makes them unusuable
>> anyway.
>>
>
>
> A rendering issue.
>
Not only a rendering issue, when you search for tea shop and it was marked as
shop=herbata ("herbata" is Polish for tea) then even a well written search tool
will fail to reliably find it.

Also, rendering cannot be expected to shop=florist shop=flower shop=flowers
shop=florist2 shop=floristt shop=floorist shop=kwiaty shop=blumen and all
other possible variants (even if we do not care about feedback to mappers)

>> shop = chandler → shop = ship_chandler
>> shop = chandlery → shop = ship_chandler
>> shop = chandlers → shop = ship_chandler
>>
>
>
> A 'chandler' is a person who posses a shop that is a 'chandlery'. Boats are 
> smaller than ships and more numerous.
>
> I would think 'shop=chandlery' is best as it applies to both boats and ships.
>
Either way I will leave it out of the list if that is not an obvious change.
(and I already removed this on)

>> shop = collectibles → shop = collector
>>
> No, shops these days do not sell people.
>
note https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcollector
and anyway risk of confusion here that shop=collector sells people seems not 
very likely
(and say https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dhairdresser )

I am not proposing here establishing shop=collector - for better or worse
it is established already

>> shop = unattended → shop = vacant
>> shop = for_rent → shop = vacant
>> shop = unused → shop = vacant
>> shop = vacancy → shop = vacant
>>
> These could be tagged disused:shop=* and retain the past use.
>
not really, as current tagging does not give info (and checking history does not
give info whether past equipment/sign/anything is still there, and it is not
important enough to open notes or bother people via changeset comments - 
and shop=vacant can be reliably handled as empty shop 
I could migrate to disused:shop=yes but in turn some people described 
disued:shop=
as not fitting for shop space that was never used
)

>> shop = bazaar → shop = yes
>>
>
>
> Humm bazaar = a market in a Middle Eastern or Asian country. These usually 
> consist of a number of shops .. May be better mapped as amenity=marketplace?
>
I though so - but all I checked were about individual shops. And shop=yes will 
be 
flagged for resurvey anyway

Can skip if it is in doubt

>> shop = sport → shop = sports
>>
>
> The secondary tag of 'sport=*' does  not have the 's' .. this may lead to 
> errors. I'd retain 'shop=sport'.
>
note https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dsports - again, I am not
proposing introducing new shop value

>> shop = foods → shop = food
>>
> Foods .. usually more than one.
>
we also have established shop=food tag

>> shop = paints → shop = paint
>>
> Paints .. usually more than one.
>
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dpaint is well established,
that is 14886 vs 10 uses right now

though if someone will convince OSM community to deprecate shop=paint and
switch to shop=paints then situation would be different

but until it happens having shop=paints is just confusing (such as questions
"this shop is tagged, why it is without icon?")

>> shop = door → shop = doors
>> shop = health_foods → shop = health_food
>> shop = locksmiths → shop = locksmith
>> shop = bathroom_furnishings → shop = bathroom_furnishing
>>
>> low use values based on review of other low use values with extra s,
>> this were not reviewed specifically
>>
>
>
> Most of thefollowing .. I'd reatin the 's' as they would sell more than one 
> kind.
>
also when we have established s-less value?

>> shop = farm_stand → shop = farm
>>
> A 'stand' is a particular structure .. different from a retail building, so 
> may require an additional tag 'building=stand' ???
>
I guess that someone can look anyway as shop=* not inside buildings...

> Hope that helps.
>
thanks for review!

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Apr 20, 2023, 23:18 by ajt1...@gmail.com:

> On 20/04/2023 19:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
>
>> For start I want to propose to people to review shop tags in their area
>> with undocumented shop values or ones documented as problematic.
>>
>> See http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1u2o
>>
>
> Reviewing "odd" tags before tagfiddling them away seems to me a very sensible 
> approach.  However, running that query locally finds, alongside a couple of 
> typos by me, lots that are very much correct, but just not on your list - 
> there are some very odd shops out there.
>

Note that I mentioned that many of them should be rather documented
(or new values covering them invented).

> To change "shop=veryrarevalue" where it was correct to 
> "shop=lessrarevalue"without preserving the detail somehow loses detail from 
> OSM and is therefore by definition a Bad Thing.  Some of the entries on your 
> list I'd definitely want to check onsite ("gun" and "firearms" is one obvious 
> one such, but there are others).
>
I agree in general, this batch is supposed to be listing 1:1 replacements
(I have similar list where I gather cases more suitable for shop=something + 
extra tag,
like shop=dog_groomer to shop=pet_groomer + pet=dog)

If you see any like this here, please let me know.

> Also, changing rare shop types into "yes" helps absolutely no-one.  If a data 
> consumer wants to handle a catch-all for "shop" they can; they don't need 
> them to be set to "yes" first.
>
It helps because maintaining lists of many many many rarely used meaningless 
values
in every single QA tool and validator and tool doing this is annoying at best.

For quite reasonable reasons JOSM developers do not want patches handling 
barely used
tags - if in 2025 someone uses say 50 instances of shop=needs_to_survey they do 
not
want to get a patch.

Also, there is no data loss whatsoever if confusing meaningless value (like 
shop=retail
or shop=??? gets changed into a standard meaningless value)

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[OSM-talk] Upcoming Maintenance - 26 April 2023

[Grant Slater]

Hi OpenStreetMap,

The OpenStreetMap.org website, API and some related services will be
unavailable for short periods between 00:00 CEST (GMT/UTC+2) and 06:00
CEST on Wednesday 26th April 2023 due to scheduled network
maintenance.

It is likely there may be 2 outages during the window which could last
up to 20mins.

Sorry for the short notice. Our ISP only recently notified us of the
upcoming maintenance.

Twitter announcement:
https://twitter.com/OSM_Tech/status/1649349339800633344
Follow us for updates.

Kind regards,

Grant
Part of OpenStreetMap Operations Team

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 21. Apr. 2023 um 11:19 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

>
> A rendering issue.
>
> Why not have a generic symbol for 'shop' and use that for any value of
> shop that you don't have a specific symbol for?
>


this is a deliberate decision, because it would provide positive feedback
also for shop values that are mistyped, at least this is the argument AFAIK.
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Le forum et la liste

[Christian Quest]

J'ai hésité à répondre à ce message à cause de la mauvaise foi et de 
l'agressivité dont il fait preuve.


osmf a une liste de diffusion: talk-fr ?
osm-fr a(vait) une liste pour ce qui touchait l'asso seule, elle n'est 
quasiment plus active (comme les ML en général... même "talk")


osmf a décidé de migrer son forum sur Discourse
osm-fr l'a fait environ un an avant... et l'a connecté à 
matrix/irc/telegram pour éviter l'isolement.


osmf sur irc bridgé Matrix
osm-fr aussi... le doublon vient de l'ouverture (par on ne sait qui) 
d'un canal telegram... qui a eu bien plus de succès que irc/matrix


Et oui, on ne peut pas forcer les contributeurs à utiliser tel ou tel 
canal. Quand la communauté grossit au delà du périmètre historique, 
c'est son centre de gravité qui se déplace. On suit ou pas, en fixant 
des limites comme la ligne rouge facebook ou des trucs propriétaires 
(discord) qui là créent vraiment une fragmentation toxique.


Il ne faut pas confondre fragmentation et évolution.

Les techno évoluent et la communauté aussi. En restant sur IRC et les 
ML, on s'isole de la communauté qui bouge au fur et à mesure du turnover 
de ses membres. Le fait est qu'il y a 10 fois plus d'activité sur le 
forum qu'ici, pareil pour le canal telegram/matrix vs irc/matrix.


OSM-FR a très souvent mis en place des outils bien plus tôt que la 
fondation.

On cherche l'instance peertube de l'OSMF.
Peut être méconnais-tu cet historique.


Ton message est inutilement agressif et ne me donne qu'une envie: ne 
plus lire talk-fr où tes posts représentent pas loin de 50% de l'inactivité.
Cette agressivité pourrit aussi notre fonctionnement dans la gestion de 
l'infra et oui, cela a des conséquences.


Si Discourse te "spamme" : 
https://forum.openstreetmap.fr/u/[tonPseudo]/preferences/emails



--
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Warin]

On 21/4/23 04:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 
times, three over 100 times, many used less)


For quite long time I am trying to use OSM-based products as Google
Maps replacement. One of major issues are POIs (in many apects). Small
part of that are POIs marked but in way that makes them unusuable
anyway.



A rendering issue.

Why not have a generic symbol for 'shop' and use that for any value of 
shop that you don't have a specific symbol for?




This is also problems for mappers, especially newbies, confused
for example why nice icon is not appearing on some (and problem is for
example shop=hair_dresser vs shop=hairdresser).


For start I want to propose to people to review shop tags in their area
with undocumented shop values or ones documented as problematic.

See http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1u2o

For each case either shop should be either


(1) retagged and shop=* changed
(2) such shop value should have its value documented at OSM Wiki (I
documented some, see for example
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcatalogue ) (3)
sometimes new value should be invented, documented and shop=* retagged
to it


https://community.openstreetmap.org/c/general/tagging/70 may be useful
for discussing new shop=* values (local discussion channel may be also
useful, but I strongly recommend asking wider community about new
values to avoid avoidable confusion). Some people go through
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process - but
discussion/review step is the most useful one and you can use just this.


Tagging mailing list also exists and can be used for discussing new
tags.


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Creating_a_page_describing_key_or_value
may be also useful.


But some of shop values can be safely automatically replaced by another
shop value. For example shop=shoe can be safely migrated to shop=shoes
without human review.


-


Getting to the bot edit itself (and I want to note that I am more
excited about finding missing shop values and documenting them and
adding them to presets/documentation than I am about retagging):


So I am proposing to extend
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/fixing_malformed_shop_tags
by adding more tag replacements.


Please let me know if any of replacements here are dubious and values
require human review/survey to be replaced or are actualy valid. I know
that list is long, so if someone wants to review but needs more than 2
weeks - please write and I can wait for longer.


Also, let me know if anyone would want to get list of affected objects
for review or manual retagging or listing of edits that added this tags
and so on.


tags with highest use, among ones that will be retagged
shop = chandler with 113 uses
shop = stationary with 116 uses
shop = hardware_store with 60 uses
shop = lamps with 250 uses
shop = knife with 60 uses
shop = unattended with 87 uses (see
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/130756523 - this mapper added
all* of them and is fine with such change
*including one as a typo, that is why another mapper may
be credited with it)
shop = local_shop with 53 uses
shop = retail with 145 uses

shop = chandler → shop = ship_chandler
shop = chandlery → shop = ship_chandler
shop = chandlers → shop = ship_chandler



A 'chandler' is a person who posses a shop that is a 'chandlery'. Boats 
are smaller than ships and more numerous.


I would think 'shop=chandlery' is best as it applies to both boats and 
ships.



shop = stationary → shop = stationery
shop = hardware_store → shop = hardware (Note: there are weird clusters of
shop=hardware in some places, but that is a bit different story -
I suspect some systematic mistake or bad mapping, unless there are African
towns where 1/4 of all shops are really shop=hardware - though either way
local on the ground survey seems needed)
shop = vaping → shop = e-cigarette
shop = vape_store → shop = e-cigarette
shop = vape → shop = e-cigarette
shop = Vape_Store → shop = e-cigarette
shop = lamps → shop = lighting
shop = lamp → shop = lighting
shop = Lighting_Shop → shop = lighting
shop = knife → shop = knives
shop = collectibles → shop = collector

No, shops these days do not sell people.

shop = unattended → shop = vacant
shop = for_rent → shop = vacant
shop = unused → shop = vacant
shop = vacancy → shop = vacant

These could be tagged disused:shop=* and retain the past use.

shop = local_shop → shop = yes (though looking at
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6771559662/history and other - maybe
this import should be reverted due to dubious quality?)
shop = retail → shop = yes
shop = Retail → shop = yes
shop = Retails → shop = yes
shop = generic → shop = yes
shop = ??? → shop = yes
shop = retailer → shop = yes
shop = retails → shop = yes (again
"SUZA Indusrtial training Resillence Academy" but this suspect data
will be more detectable as shop=yes - see say

Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 21. Apr. 2023 um 09:47 Uhr schrieb Jochen Topf :

> On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 10:11:49PM +0100, Andy Townsend wrote:
> > To change "shop=veryrarevalue" where it was correct to
> > "shop=lessrarevalue"without preserving the detail somehow loses detail
> from
> > OSM and is therefore by definition a Bad Thing.  Some of the entries on
> your
>
> I disagree with that blanket "Bad Thing". It is much more likely that a
> general map will show shop=lessrarevalue with a specific icon than
> shop=veryrarevalue. So if you are using shop=veryrarevalue instead of
> shop=lessrarevalue you might lose detail in the database, but in
> practice you will gain detail in actual use.
>


what we actually want is both, a reasonably generic/specific value for a
"main" class, and potentially additional tag(s) for details.
Rather than just replacing shop=veryrarevalue with shop=moregenericvalue,
we should probably also add moregenericvalue=veryrarevalue

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Jochen Topf]

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 10:11:49PM +0100, Andy Townsend wrote:
> To change "shop=veryrarevalue" where it was correct to
> "shop=lessrarevalue"without preserving the detail somehow loses detail from
> OSM and is therefore by definition a Bad Thing.  Some of the entries on your

I disagree with that blanket "Bad Thing". It is much more likely that a
general map will show shop=lessrarevalue with a specific icon than
shop=veryrarevalue. So if you are using shop=veryrarevalue instead of
shop=lessrarevalue you might lose detail in the database, but in
practice you will gain detail in actual use. There is probably a sweet
spot somewhere in the middle, enough detail to allow to differentiate
"important" differences while not adding too much detail overwhelming
anybody who wants to use the data.

Jochen
-- 
Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  https://www.jochentopf.com/  +49-351-31778688

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Le forum et la liste

[Cyrille37 OSM]

Bonjour,

Merci pour ces comptages qui nous éclairent.

Et une belle journée à toutes et tous.

Cyrille37.

On 20/04/2023 17:03, Vincent de Château-Thierry wrote:

Bonjour,

- Mail transféré -

De: "Marc_marc"
À: "Discussions sur OSM en français"
Envoyé: Lundi 17 Avril 2023 12:54:43
Objet: Re: [OSM-talk-fr]  traduction de "tag" en français dans JOSM
Marc qui a voté sur le forumhttps://localhost, ben quoi
faut fragmenter...

Je rebondis sur cette remarque (pique ?) de Marc au sujet du forum et de la 
fragmentation, pour donner quelques éléments factuels sur le 
forumhttps://forum.openstreetmap.fr/

En 1 année glissante (20 avril 2022 -> 20 avril 2023) le forum a vu :
- la création de 4400 sujets, soit environ 12/jour
- l'arrivée de 600 nouveaux inscrits (pour un total de 3000, soit 4x plus que 
la liste talk-fr)
- la publication de 11000 posts soit environ 30/jour

Sur la même période on compte 1062 messages sur cette liste, à peine 3/jour.

Évidemment chacune, chacun a ses habitudes de lecture, ses préférences en 
termes d'ergonomie, et je ne suis pas là pour en juger. Mais poster sur le 
forum, en 2023, n'est pas fragmenter, au contraire : c'est aller à la rencontre 
du plus grand nombre, se donner le plus de chances de recevoir avis, arguments, 
conseils.

Voilà, sans polémique, mais pour mettre un peu à jour le paysage de nos canaux 
de communication, notamment pour celles et ceux qui ne consultent que la liste.

merci
vincent

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mark Wagner]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 20:47:34 +0100
Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 at 19:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk
>  wrote:

> > shop = unattended → shop = vacant  
> 
> "Unattended" is not "vacant"; it can mean a place where one pays in an
> "honesty box", or uses vending machines.

These were all added by a single user, who confirmed that "unattended"
meant "vacant".  I don't see it as being a controversial change.

-- 
Mark

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