Re: [OSM-talk] Code of conduct for automated (mass-) edits
Ulf Lamping skrev: P.S: If you would only know how many of such obvious mistakes like aerialway=cinema I've seen while I was having a detailed look at the tagwatch output - and not even mentioning the common typos ... /reminder to self : Stop tagging inflight movies, while passing over inhabited areas... Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] German Supreme Court uses OpenStreetMap
Jochen Topf skrev: The German Supreme Court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) uses OpenStreetMap maps on its web site: http://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/organisation/anfahrt.html Jochen Nice... Maybe we can get one of their judges to look over the licenses pro bono, in gratitude for their use of OSM. Frederik, can't you give them a call ;) /Just for the record, the above was a joke - In case we have Germans and Swedes without humour reading the list :P Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] German Supreme Court uses OpenStreetMap
Richard Fairhurst skrev: J.D. Schmidt wrote: /Just for the record, the above was a joke - In case we have Germans and Swedes without humour reading the list :P It's been pointed out on IRC that the reason the German Supreme Court was looking into OSM in the first place is that, under pressure from talk-de, they actually want to enshrine BAN POTLATCH!!!??!!lolwtfbbq into German law. cheers Richard And rightly so ! First Germany, then the rest of EU. There can be only one ! JOSM forever!! :P Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] osm in flickr
Iván Sánchez Ortega skrev: El Miércoles, 13 de Agosto de 2008, SteveC escribió: Guys I've been in contact with them throughout to help this happen, I guess that wasn't clear. I had planned a blog post but have been on a plane from when they posted up until now. Steve, You have to switch to faster airlines. ;-) Warning : Tongue in cheek post in progress: After the A380 has entered regular service with SQuidAir (Singapore Airlines) Steve has planned to relocate his permanent residence to one of the flats on first class aboard their A380's - The funds that CloudMade has gotten must not go to waste you know. The problem is that Connexion By Boing has shut down, so no internet connection anymore while airborne. He is working on that though, using USB thumbdrives to store blogposts and other data to be dissiminated online - OUFDO AKA OpenUSBFlashdriveDropOff.org is coming online, as soon as he has gotten enough people interested in waiting at the airports served by Singapore Airlines. The link with OSM is appearent on the OUFDO signup page, since any USBCouriers must map the routes taken to and from the airports and upload the corresponding tracklogs to OSM. Amazing what a little ingeniuity and some seed funds from investors can lead to :P Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] osm in flickr
Iván Sánchez Ortega skrev: El Lunes, 11 de Agosto de 2008, SteveC escribió: http://www.flickr.com/map?fLat=39.912fLon=116.3783zl=4order_by=interest ingness A friend of mine (thanks, rinzewind!) points me to this entry in the flickr's developers blog: http://blog.flickr.net/en/2008/08/12/around-the-world-and-back-again/ Cheers, Good find ! Now someone just needs to get in touch with them, and suggest that they use OSM data for IoM and Cyprus among other places. And then get that pressrelease out about it, in cooperation with the Flickr dudes, to the oldstyle media. The more innovative ways OSM data is used, and the more that is is publized and evangilized through both oldstyle and newstyle (read Web based non-deadtree) media, the better. Just my 0.01 sqkm worth... Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] osm in flickr
D Tucny skrev: 2008/8/12 Tim Waters (chippy) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Very cool! Been panning around, is it just Beijing? No Isle of Man? ;) Looks like it's just Beijing... I'd guess due to the lack of Yahoo map coverage and the current large interest in Beijing... for some reason ;) d Someone from the OSMF presscontact division ( Hi SteveC :P) should really make a pressrelease about the symbiotic relationship between Yahoo and OSM coming full circle - OSM was allowed to use the sat imagery Yahoo maps displayed, and now Yahoo benefits from being able to display OSM maps on their Flickr photosite worldmap. This time, don't /. it, but send the pressrelease to CNN and similar Old Media companies. Remember to tell in the pressrelease, that Beijing isn't the only area where OSM has more and better data, than commercial geoproviders... Cyprus, IoM etc are good examples to mention. If others can capitalize on the Olympic Games mediainterest, why shouldn't we also ? Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker
Who are we, Apple or IBM ? (And if the former, are you contemplating a surname-change in the near future ? ;) Me personally, I'm just waiting for the iOSM device - With matching white gpsantenna and rechargeable batteries that can't be exchanged without voiding the warranty. Not that the warranty will be any use, since the battery will stop recharging the day after the warranty expired. But thats a completely different story. ;) Dutch SteveC skrev: Hum: http://blogs.s60.com/browser/images/seriouslyIBM_l.jpg On 24 Jun 2008, at 09:54, X wrote: http://www.google.com/mapmaker/mapfiles/s/support.html Ready ... Fight ! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk Best Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM in Europe Statistics
Frederik Ramm skrev: Hi, a very crude statistic: Country osm.bz2 sizepopulationratio (bytes per capita) UK73M60M1.2 Germany 110M82M1.3 Netherlands 51M16M3.2 France29M60M0.5 Finland 20M 5M4.0 Italy 14M58M0.2 Norway21M 5M4.2 Sweden24M 9M2.6 Spain 17M40M0.4 Could you do a stats on Denmark as well, since we still are considered part of Scandinavia ;) Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik does not render light_rail bridges
Stephan Schildberg skrev: Mapnik does not render light_rail bridges, or does it? Yes it does, although I prefer the Osmarender style of bridges. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=55.63272lon=12.64912zoom=16layers=B0FT It does't. I wish it would, your sample displays a subway, look at this, where I have a subway beside a light_rail. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.619335lon=10.031516zoom=18layers=B0FT regards, Stephan. Ahh I see what you mean - The Mapnik layer renders the subway bridge from zoomlevel 14 to 18, but the lightrail bridge is only rendered at zoomlevel 18. Must be an oversight on the part of the mapnik stylesheet maintainer. Artem ? Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Participating in TAH
Kyle Gordon skrev: I know this has already been answered, but it would be awesome if [EMAIL PROTECTED] could be accessed through the BOINC framework (especially as deployment to multiple computers would just involve an MSI and MST file). Anyone reckon if it's at all possible to get all the required magic working? :-p Since [EMAIL PROTECTED] involves using other software for the rendering, I think we have wait untill Frederik has implemented the equivalent Inkscape functionality in perl, and Artem then converts everything to a multiplatform binary that conforms to the BOINC specs for in and output. My guess is that it should be ready for rollout on 01April2008. ;) Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSMXapi error 501
Chris Hill skrev: I've been trying to extract data from OSMXapi. It seems to respond with ERROR 501 - Internal Server Error to each request. Is it broken? cheers, Chris Same server that runs [EMAIL PROTECTED] afair - and that server is down at the moment. Crschmidt posted the following on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list : The [EMAIL PROTECTED] server is currently down for processing new tilesets. The disk which hosts the MySQL database is currently unavailable. I've contacted the owner of the machine and let him know. I will update the list when the service is available again. I apologize for any inconvenience. Regards, Christopher Schmidt MetaCarta That might be the same reason osmxapi is u/s at the moment. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cycle lanes
Lars Aronsson skrev: Alex Mauer wrote: It also has the problem that ways can easily get reversed, and then the left/right meanings are backwards. A bus stop is an attribute on a node (highway=bus_stop) in the middle of a way. If I want to indicate that this bus stop is on one side of the street, left and right don't matter much, since there can be two ways both pointing towards the node. It would be better to use the words north, east, west or south. If the way goes from south-west to north-east, then north and west both mean the left side of that way. Shall we paint the outhouse red, green or blue ?? It doesn't matter if the busstop is on the right or left side of the road... Neither OSM wise, nor in the real world. In the real world you use your eyes and see the busstop. With regards to OSM, you apply a tag to the node indicating position of the busstop, relative to the road. I.E : k=placement v=left|right|middle It doesn't even need to be rendered on the left or right of the road on the map, but it could be. We are not trying to make a virtual copy of the world with the rendered maps, we are trying to make a fairly accurate visual representation of the world with the maps, that can be used to orientate and possibly even navigate around in the real world. Compromises are made everyday on the renderings of both our and any other maps. Thats one of the parts of cartography - Deciding what compromises to use in order to make a map for a specific purpose. So just tag it with common sense, instead of having 2 months of discussion on the mailing list - Next people will want to set down subcommittees that need to deliver reports on best practices for mapping the wastebaskets and their type at the busstops, which then has to go through a hearing in the OSMF, and put to a consensus vote twice in a year, before being vetoed by some goat-hearder mapping trails in outer mongolia, since he doesn't think a wastebasket position should be mapped at all, if goat-dung positions isn't mapped as well... We could call it Working the EU-OSM way... Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] OSM Bumper-Sticker
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Image:OSM-streamer.jpg Bumpersticker produced for fun, and now prominently featured on SteveC's Mac laptop, as well as on my 50 ccm scooter, which so far has been used while collecting appr. 30 % of my gps tracks used for the Copenhagen data (The remainder 70 % of my gps tracks has been collected on foot, in public transportation, or in car). If anybody needs something similar, or even wants a complete car encapsulated (like you see taxi's with commercials on), I got a good contact who can produce it at a fair price - Especially as he now is going to become OCOSMD inflicted himself, since we are going to map his hometown of Jyllinge ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=55.7528lon=12.1064zoom=13layers=0BFT ) together, when the winterweather clears. If anybody wants to get in touch with him, for OSM streamers, stickers, posters, for your next mapping party, etc, his company homepage is http://www.leoskilte.dk. Phone number at the bottom of the page - Country code for Denmark is +45. He is willing to ship worldwide, so give him a call if you want something similar done. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Survey: Bad Map Rendering
Frederik Ramm skrev: For super bonus points, do all this in XSLT. Or while undergoing dental surgery. Bye Frederik You surely misswrote that, Frederik ? You must have meant an instead of dent ? ;) Having tried both, I can assure you the former is more painfull - and for a longer duration... :O Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Free aerentical data
Rahkonen Jukka skrev: Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote: I'm pretty sure someone already imported all the basic data for airport locations around the world but there may be other info that's of interest from this data set providing the licence on that data is compatible with ours. Was the import done from this data? According to the web page users have done this data much better: Users: X-Plane users have added many other airports, nav-aids and all the taxiways. This data is imported into the same database as the DAFIF data, and in many cases enhances or corrects the DAFIF data. It is under GNU GPL Please refrain from importing any danish airports - they have been manually inserted long time ago in OSM from official and current airport charts supplied by the local civil aviation authority. An example - EKCH/CPH - Copenhagen airport/Kastrup can be seen here : http://informationfreeway.org/?lat=55.619414169994286lon=12.652493997348078zoom=14layers=B000F000F All runways, taxiways, and apronareas has been taken from the official EKCH ADC plate, similar data for airports in other countries should be available freely from the civil aviation authority governing the airspace in that country. IMHO the data gained this way is better, since it is current, official, and verifiable. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Free aerentical data
Rahkonen Jukka skrev: J.D. Schmidt wrote: Users: X-Plane users have added many other airports, nav-aids and all the taxiways. This data is imported into the same database as the DAFIF data, and in many cases enhances or corrects the DAFIF data. It is under GNU GPL Please refrain from importing any danish airports - they have been manually inserted long time ago in OSM from official and current airport charts supplied by the local civil aviation authority. An example - EKCH/CPH - Copenhagen airport/Kastrup can be seen here : http://informationfreeway.org/?lat=55.619414169994286lon=12.6 52493997348078zoom=14layers=B000F000F All runways, taxiways, and apronareas has been taken from the official EKCH ADC plate, similar data for airports in other countries should be available freely from the civil aviation authority governing the airspace in that country. IMHO the data gained this way is better, since it is current, official, and verifiable. Naturally that data are preferred and it would be bad idea to automatically update anything that exists already. But maybe making the first insert for missing places. By the way, X-Plane web page informs that in the USA aerentical data are no more public for security reasons. -Jukka- AD plates are available for any licensed pilot via the FAA, otherwise it would be impossible to plan a flight between airports. You might not as the average Joe Public download the data anonymously anymore, but have to log in with verifiable credentials such as a PPL license number, in order to get the data from the FAA site. Same procedure for the CAA in the UK - pre 9/11 the data was browsable by anyone, today you must register in order to download the PDF version of the AD information or browse the online version. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Stares
Andy Robinson (blackadder) skrev: There is no need for OSM data gathering to be a subversive activity. Make a statement about it and tell people what you are doing. Aaaww shucks - There goes 250 € down the drain. Anybody interested in a full urban camouflage battledress, complete with matching ghillie-suit and a discreet handwoven OpenStreetMap Surveyor tag ? Mint condition, only used at night, in low-crime neighbourhoods of a major european town. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Free aerentical data
Martin Spott skrev: J.D. Schmidt wrote: AD plates are available for any licensed pilot via the FAA, otherwise it would be impossible to plan a flight between airports. For many countries the use of these 'official' aerodrome ground layouts is _explicitly_ restricted to performance of real-life flights, no matter if you get these charts for free or have to buy them from Jeppesen or your local authorities. Even the comparatively permissive Danish AIP (I've never flown outside Europe) has a copyright which reads: Copyright As certain information in this publication are the property of the Civil Aviation Administration and/ or third parties, no part may be reproduced except as authorized by written permission from the Civil Aviation Administration, Denmark. Take care Martin. And they have not been reproduced, as in copied, scanned, etc. What has been done, is taking the lat/lon for various points, such as start and end of runways, taxiways, designated apron areas, etc, and entered those points in a GPX waypoint file. This is akin to loading the waypoints into a GPS receiver, which is acceptable use, and no different from doing that as a private pilot prepping a flight, or a commercial pilot prepping the FMS system aboard the airliner. Then the gpx file has been loaded into JOSM, and lines drawn betweeen the corresponding waypoints, which then has been tagged according to the OSM tagging scheme for aeronautical content. At least for the danish data, it has been verified with SLV (Statens Luftfartsvæsen) that this procedure falls into the acceptable usage of the AIP AD charts, since widths, elevation, slope, placement of navaids, vasi, papi, tower frequencies and so on, are not entered into the DB. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to correct logical errors in some effective way?
Ulf Lamping skrev: Alex S. schrieb: Ulf Lamping wrote: place_of_warship, ... Shouldn't that be naval_yard? ;) Hmm, full tagging should be: amenity=place_of_warship religion=military denomination=U.S.Navy ;-))) And please add any nodes tagged like that, in Switzerland, to the Tagwatch list ;) Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] High Visibility Vests - Printed OSM
Richard Fairhurst skrev: Andy Robinson ((blackadder)) wrote: Now for Ireland we might want: The craic OpenStreetMap catchy, don't you think? I still want one that says I'M IN UR TOWN MAPPIN UR STREETZ I think they come complimentary with that text, when awarded a lolcat award, or when throwing away GPX logs... I'm not sure, but Tom should be able to answer that with certainty :P Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Continuous audio in JOSM on tracks without waypoints
80n skrev: On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 12:28 PM, graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 80n wrote: BTW I just had a very successful experiment this morning using a modified kitchen sponge http://img.alibaba.com/photo/50923335/Kitchen_Sponge_Scourers.jpg as a windshield for my bluetooth headset :) Ah, but we wanted the photo of you wearing it while explaining yourself to casual passers-by ;-) I only plan to use it after dark ;) LOL.. One of these days I'll get someone to take a snapshot of me in full OSM/Wigle mapping gear on the cityscooter, and post it on the Wiki. Magellan CrossoverGPS in automotive mode mounted with the windshieldsuctionmount on the handlebar instrumentpanel, videocam strapped on to the lefthand side of the black flip-up helmet, and wearing a backpack with WiFi antennas and bluelit Pharaos GPS mouse sticking out. No wonder cardrivers are slowing down and following the speedlimit when they observe me. The things you do when suffering from OCOSMD continues to amaze me... :P Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Parking symbols: YUCK!
Lester Caine skrev: Again - the fact that people are giving time to enter data is precisely why we need to be producing a guide to how to do things that is consistent. If people are going to tidy up these 'couple of problems' then we don't want one person deleting a node and another adding it back because they are looking at different views of the same data :( *ALSO* we also don't need people wasting time making the renderers play silly tricks to make things look right. Lets just be consistent in how things are handled. What ever the inconsistency! You need to look at it differently. From the view you are putting forth above, you seem to equalize the rendered output in the form of Mapnik and Osmarender maps to Openstreetmap. And I can see why, since those two items produce the currently most visible part of OSM. BUT remember, the DB is one thing, the rendering of data from the db is another thing altogether. Look at the db as a big sea of data, where it is your (the rendering engine) task to harvest the data that you want to render. Not to impose rules and limitations on what form the data in the DB is entered in. IMHO one of the reasons why OSM has gained such notoriety and following among neogeographers, established carthographers, and joe-public alike, is the fact that it is not a mapproducing framework bound by strict and defined ISO-like rules, but a framework that is more akin to social networking for the map-inflicted. If the two rendering engines used currently differ in the way they render said data, then its the rendering rules used in those engines that need to be put into sync. Its not done by imposing limitations or strict rules on what can/should be put into the DB. If one person observed a parking lot, but didn't have time to log the boundaries of the lot, and just placed a node with the corresponding tag, then later another person comes along and logs the boundary of the parking lot, and puts an area out of that data into the DB, he shouldn't delete the node another person made. Maybe that person is using the data from the DB to keep a POI record of parking lots. He might be the only one doing so, but thats still one of the forces of the OSM project - Log it, tag it, put it into the DB - even if you are the only person ever going to use that data. So IMHO it's up to the rendering engines to render the data smartly. It's not the rendering engines that decide what should be put into the DB. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Parking symbols: YUCK!
Lester Caine skrev: Do you have to re-write the renderer every time someone comes up with a new conflict? Short answer : Yes. Long answer : The renderer operates on a subset of the data contained in the DB. It is up to the operator of the renderer to extract and possibly massage that data into a format that the renderer can utilize. It is not the place of the renderer to impose limitiations or rules into what is in the DB, since the the DB is/might/will be used for other tasks than just rendering maps. This is similar to the previous discussion this month, where someone wanted to impose limitations on what charactersets could be used for tagnames. All together now, repeat this months mantra after me : Implementing non-DB technical limitations and rules for content in the DB is bad, recommendations and smarter algorithms in renderers are good. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Parking symbols: YUCK!
Lester Caine skrev: J.D. Schmidt wrote: Lester Caine skrev: Do you have to re-write the renderer every time someone comes up with a new conflict? Short answer : Yes. Long answer : The renderer operates on a subset of the data contained in the DB. It is up to the operator of the renderer to extract and possibly massage that data into a format that the renderer can utilize. It is not the place of the renderer to impose limitiations or rules into what is in the DB, since the the DB is/might/will be used for other tasks than just rendering maps. This is similar to the previous discussion this month, where someone wanted to impose limitations on what charactersets could be used for tagnames. Should never have been discussed - Unicode has to be used even if there is an arbitrary limit of English tag names - the content has to be unicode and mixing that with anything else is simply crass. All together now, repeat this months mantra after me : Implementing non-DB technical limitations and rules for content in the DB is bad, recommendations and smarter algorithms in renderers are good. Bullshit. TAGGING as laid out in the wiki are all rules for content but as yet they do not provide a consistent USABLE base once one moves away from the basic road stuff. And even the base road stuff people are trying to change the rules! Correction: Tagging as laid out in the wiki is NOT rules for content IN THE DB. Let me just repeat that: Tagging as laid out on the wiki in the Mapfeatures page is NOT rules governing the content in the DB. They are recommendations, to be used if you'd like to see your content rendered by the current default rendering engines used on the OSM site. Nothing more, nothing less. See my other message about the area/node conflict. This problem arises everywhere that node and area options exist for a tag and there needs to be AGREEMENT on how the conflict is handled. Some people using different methods of handling it for different tags is no use to anybody so lets decide ONE way of handling the conflict and stick to it. Personally I have no particular feeling anyway, but a logical means if identifying a SINGLE list of parking places ( for example - but any node/area rag! ) is just common sense. This is just a simple case of how do you identify a set of tags UNLESS there is agreement about how a tag is used. *IF* we are going to allow both node and area tags for the same item then we need to ensure that they ARE returning the same data but some logical method of ensuring that the node and area returns a CONSISTENT set of answers is essential otherwise we have anarchy. There is NO agreement on tags used, and should NOT be any such agreement on tags used, since the DB is more akin to a wiki - if you can describe it within the framework of k=name v=value/ then it can go into the DB for storage. There IS an agreement on RECOMMENDATIONS of tags to be used IN THE SCOPE of rendering maps with the default rendering engines currently used by OSM. Its then up to the rendering engines to visualize those tags according to whatever rules they use in their visualization attempts. LOGICALLY - there should never have been a problem created. A POI element should consist of a single entity which may have additional area information. Even those tags that are currently only defined as 'node' in many cases WILL be expanded to include area information at some point. So PLEASE can we have some sensible method of identifying PAIRS of tags so we can THEN decide what to do with them !!! It's still not a OSM DB problem. It's a problem to be solved by the rendering engines. Imposing non-DB technical limitations and rules to the data put into the DB, in order to please the rendering mechanism is fundamentally wrong. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Pint symbols: YUCK!
Lauri Hahne skrev: The old pint symbols look amateurish, the new ones only hideous. Just take a look at http://informationfreeway.org/?lat=61.4978902211692lon=23.764454385823434zoom=16layers=F0B0F Thats how the pint glasses look, at the end of an evening drinking with brits.. Kinda' blurry and out of focus. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Parking symbols: YUCK!
Sven Grüner skrev: J.D. Schmidt schrieb: TAGGING as laid out in the wiki are all rules for content but as yet they do not provide a consistent USABLE base once one moves away from the basic road stuff. And even the base road stuff people are trying to change the rules! Correction: Tagging as laid out in the wiki is NOT rules for content IN THE DB. Let me just repeat that: Tagging as laid out on the wiki in the Mapfeatures page is NOT rules governing the content in the DB. They are recommendations, to be used if you'd like to see your content rendered by the current default rendering engines used on the OSM site. Nothing more, nothing less. True. I don't understand why it's so fashionable on this list to play down the importance of Map features. Without that page all those 80GB of cryptic XML would be pretty useless. Thats again because you look at the DB and the usage of the data contained therein as one entity that defines OSM. If you on the other hand look at the DB and the data contained therein as one entity and the USAGE of the data in the DB as a seperate entity, you get a more correct view of the state of our wonderfull hutsputz of geodata and geodata usage. But that's nothing bad or something we should encounter, that just the nature of any map, whether it's stored in a DB or printed on colorful paper. We (OSM) do not store a map in a DB. We store geodata. A map is an abstract description of the landscape, that's what makes it different from an aerial or plat. Someone making that description uses certain symbols or certain code for certain features. Someone who uses that description needs to know what every symbol/code resembles. On a paper map that's done by the map keys which tell you whether those blue lines are motorways, railways or maybe rivers, for OSM-data Map features tell you. Anybody can enter anything into the DB, we can't change that, we don't want to change that and we are all aware of that. But when I (and most other mappers as well) enter something in the DB I want other people to know what it stands for in reality. I could use some crude tags only I know, but what's then the point in making it accessible for the whole world. Again, look at the visualization of the data as a seperate entity - related to, and an important part of OSM, but not the defining measure of OSM. An example (graphic to fit my reputation ofcourse.. You have been duly warned ;) ) : If I decided to map all the trees I have taking a leak up at on the way home from drinking bouts the last couple of years, I can do so. I'll just tag it with k=urinated_tree_were_the_leaves_has_become_yellow_brownish_in_colour v=200 ml used and processed beer/. I could even tag the same tree multiple times, depending on whether I took the piss at the north, east, west, or south side of the tree. And I could even use a different tagname such as k=Urinerede_Træer_som_har_blade_med_gul_brunlig_kulør v=200 ml brugt øl without any problems. This points out the wiki-like outlook on our DB. The tag and data has only mildly interest for anybody else, but it might have real value for me. I could be the type that tends to loose my keys everytime I take a leak in toxicated condition, and now I have the possibilty to see where I have been, and go look for them. Or maybe I'm making a map showing which trees not to sit under during summer. Whatever the reason, it's geodata, and valid to go into the DB or the 80GB of cryptic XML as you called it. It might be useless for anybody else, but it wouldn't be to me. AND it could become usefull for someone else later on (urologists researching maximum distance intoxicated people can go between leaks, city planners looking for information on best placement of public restrooms, etc, etc). The other entity - visualization of the data in the OSM DB, takes a subset of the data in the DB, and masssages it into a format that the rendering mechanism can utilize. I.E. Mapnik imports the OSM data into a postgres DB according to the rules it needs, and then renders the imported data from that mapnik specific DB. Osmarender downloads the data and post-process it into SVG compliant XML according to the rules it needs, then renders it via Batik/Inkscape. Kosmos and all the other rendering mechanisms utilizing OSM data at the moment, does similar things with the extracted OSM data for the areas the user wants visualized - extract an area from the DB, massage it (postprocess, import to own formatted DB, etc, etc), then visualize it from the postprocessed data. So as I said before, its not the rendering mechanism that should define what goes into the OSM DB. At the most basic level, if it is geodata, and can be described within the scope of k=name v=value it IS valid for inclusion in the OSM database, no matter how useless it would appear to other users. And things like the cycle map would definitely not exist without some
Re: [OSM-talk] Continuous audio in JOSM on tracks without waypoints
David Earl skrev:
On 24/02/2008 22:16, 80n wrote:
David
I gave it a try today. The results were excellent.
Do you have any feeling for how accurate the timer on your audio was by
the end of the session?
I have some feedback:
1) I found synchronising to be a bit tricky the first time you do it.
This wasn't helped by the fact that I had 20 minutes of tracks before I
started the audio recorder. I've updated the wiki with what I hope are
clearer and better instructions.
That was only relevant to the non-waypoint version, so I just moved it
up a bit into that section. If you're using waypoints, you'd always sync
on a GPS-defined marker, and it is much easier.
Your instructions are spot on though for the non-waypoint case.
2) While audio is playing, when I clicked on an audio marker it caused
JOSM to hang.
OK. I'll see if I can reproduce it. Can you be more specific?
3) The Open dialog for audio files does not appear to remember the last
place that was used. Other open dialogs in JOSM do.
Curious. I'm not aware of doing anything different. Maybe there is an
extra step I missed.
4) It would be nice to have keyboard shortcuts for Forward and Backwards.
OK, can be arranged I'm sure. How about '[' and ']' with '{' and '}' for
next and last marker? Assuming the system will let me do that - it
wouldn't let me have the spacebar for the play /pause for reasons I
don't understand.
5) It would be nice to hide the audio markers without also hiding the
orange cursor. I don't use waypoints and found that using the orange
cursor and the forward and backward buttons was all that I needed most
of the time.
I'm surprised your audio was dense enough that you didn't have to jump
to new locations using the markers - I get minutes of silence when I'm
audio mapping. My two hour expedition on Saturday generated 140-odd
waypoints, roughly one a minute.
But again, I imagine that wouldn't be too hard. I hadn't actually
realised the play head vanished with the markers. I guess the graphics
context I'm given to paint with is that for the layer.
6) Lastly, it would be really nice if it was possible to play the audio
at varying speeds. For long roads if I've made occasionals marks I don't
really want to listen to the whole recording in real time, but there's
not really any way of knowing where the next one will be without
listening to the whole recording.
That's why creating waypoints help, but I know from experience with my
Garmin, the combination of key presses makes in unfeasible while moving
on a bike. The single tap on my adapted version of MaemoMapper on the
Nokia is much, much better in this respect.
If you're on a bike though you could mimic waypoints though - if you
adopt a procedure where you always either speak just after you turn into
a junction or when you do a loop loop in the road, then you can use the
artificial markers to speed up jumping through the sound track.
Variable play speed would help with this.
I imagine I could fake the sample rate, or something like that. I'll
investigate. This is probably a bit more complicated than the rest.
Overall I really like it :)
Thanks. My feeling is that it makes me safer when I'm out mapping,
because I don't have trailing wires and don't have to keep pressing the
pause on my recorder.
David
Could this work with video media files ? I've invested in an Oregon
Scientific ACT2000 solid state helmet cam ( http://tinyurl.com/22zaep )
for use when driving my cityscooter. It has audio input too, but the
audio tends to be drowned out by the motor and wind sounds. I'm planning
on using it when mapping, logging data for Wigle and OSM on the laptop
and the Magellan CrossoverGPS, and filming the route as well as
roadsigns with the helmet cam (sample movie in DivX format on
http://www.stage6.com/user/DutchDK ).
Loading up the stream and seeing it in a seperate window in sync with
the gpx log in JOSM could be great ;)
Dutch
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Re: [OSM-talk] Continuous audio in JOSM on tracks without waypoints
Robin Paulson skrev: On 25/02/2008, J.D. Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could this work with video media files ? I've invested in an Oregon Scientific ACT2000 solid state helmet cam ( http://tinyurl.com/22zaep ) for use when driving my cityscooter. It has audio input too, but the cool, will you be contributing the videos to openstreetview.org ? If you set up that site, you can just link to the files on stage6 - saves me from uploading the multiple MB video files to two places... ;) Seriously though, driving the scooter or the MC, while attempting to take snapshots of roadsigns is detrimenttal to your health, and that is what prompted me to purchase the helmetcam. If the resulting video stream could be utilized in conjunction with a GPX tracklog in JOSM, in the same way as an audio stream, it would be another great way of documenting the names of roads. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Parking symbols: YUCK!
Tom Hughes skrev: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately removing the related node isn't going to work, because Mapnik won't then render parking symbols. And it is a lot of work to do that. I believe it will - as far as I know mapnik has rendered those symbols for parking areas for some time. Since we have contradictory behaviour in the two renderers we can't resolve this automatically unless osmarender can look and see on the fly if there is a P node inside the area it is trying to do one for automatically. I believe it is fundamentally wrong to add nodes which duplicate areas, although I know it is quite common. Tom Let me just remind you all, that there are no rules. There are only recommendations. When you all come to realize that, you will find that it is not a question of whether someone has put a node within an area in the database, but a question of whether the rendering engine in question can figure out not to render the node if it has the same icon as an renderengine-placed icon for the area containing that node. (If this sounded like the baldheaded there is no spoon kid in The Matrix, SteveC will probably save Zion next year... ;)) Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Raw GPS layer
80n skrev: At the moment we are not signalling clearly enough that *every* track log is valuable to the project, even for places that have already been mapped. Does anyone have any stats on number of edits vs. number of tracklogs by user? It might be quite revealing about who does and who doesn't upload their tracklogs (coastline uploaders and serial Yahoo! tracers excepted, of course). I can only speak for myself, but 98% of the edits I've made in JOSM, has been made from my gps logs. The remainder 2 % has been from yahoo imagery, mostly while fixing the danish coastline. My workflow generally is like this : 1) Open tracklog in JOSM. 2) Get OSM data for the area covered by the tracklog. 3) Make, tag and name new ways, correct possible bad ways along the tracklog. 5) Upload edits. 4) Gzip tracklog, and upload it via the website, tagging it with area, and give fairly detailed description of roads covered by the tracklog. 5) Drive out and cover a new area. 6) Repeat, rinse and lather... and lately 7) Hope TomH doesn't throw my logs away... Again... :P I used to have around 500 gpspoints in 512+ files in the stats, but since the last GPX Trace displacement, I'm down to 2763239. I haven't bothered with reviving my 300 part of the 55949581 orphaned gpspoints, since the perlscript supplied for that operation indicates I have to re-enter the detailed descriptions again, and that would probably mean re-entering descriptions for 200+ files. It was enough of an ordeal the first time around. But I concurr, the importance of GPS tracklogs tends to be forgotten, after we got the possibility to trace over the Yahoo imagery. I still feel that gettin' out there with the GPS is necessary. Both for my own enjoyment (and health), as well as for observing changes and getting street and POI names. So a GPS trace layer gets my vote, although technically we should look into some way of merging multiple tracks into a single line. I know that a lot of my tracks runs along the same roads a fsckin' great many times, with the inherent jitter of GPS tracks being different by a few meters due to sat constellation, H/VDOP, Receiver sensitivity and what not. I.E. a map layer plotting all the traces in for instance central Copenhagen, would end up being one black box in layers below 15. I've just for kicks plotted 12 months worth of gps traces using a trackwidth of 1 pixel with Kismet's gpsmap utility, and Copenhagen definitely is just a blur at what is equivalent to our Layer 10. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] pint symbol
Artem Pavlenko skrev: Too bad it's not full ;) Well, I thought half-full would be a good compromise. But you're right, we can have three versions : full,half-full and empty. Igor Artem Full to be used for Danish, German, Belgian, Dutch, Irish, British and Czech pubs, half-full for all other countries, EXCEPT the U.S. of A, where the empty version should be used - Voila, OpenStreetMap.org's own Instant Taste-o-Meter for beerquality. ;) Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] pint symbol
Frederik Ramm skrev: Could we introduce a beer can in paper bag symbol for off-licenses in the US? Frederik, I am shocked, almost downright appalled.. You really want to buy beer in the US ?? EVERYBODY knows that american beer is akin to having sex in a canoe... I mean, take something like Budweiser - It is so f*cking close to water. ;) Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Label inconsistency: right-to-left label is printed backward
Moshe Sayag skrev: When a place is labeled in Hebrew (which is written right-to-left) it appears correctly in the [EMAIL PROTECTED] browser, but backward in OSM slippy map. For example, see how the label of the city of Ashkelon is printed in each map: Correct: http://tah.openstreetmap.org/Browse/?x=4882y=3335z=13layer=tile Incorrect: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.634lon=35.2967zoom=12 How can this be fixed? Is this is a problem with the SVG renderer? Not unless you want the [EMAIL PROTECTED] tiles to be written backwards too. [EMAIL PROTECTED] uses the svg rendering via Osmarender. The OSM slippy map default layer uses Mapnik. I'm sure Artem will be along shortly, with an explanation and a fix. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Coastline in Mapnik
Artem Pavlenko skrev: New coastline in Mapnik : Copenhagen - :http://www.openstreetmap.org/? lat=55.6829lon=12.5817zoom=12layers=B0FT A big thank you to Kleptog!!! Actually the Copenhagen coastline has been fixed about a year and a half ago, and was one of the first areas in Europe to have the coastline data imported. The rest of the Danish coastline were fixed about 8-10 months ago, long before Kleptog's great coastline checker was made. The coastlines were fixed manually, downloading segments for all the islands and the peninsular part of Denmark into JOSM, checking them for breaks between segments, fixing it, and uploading. It was only the Mapnik layer that lagged behind in displaying it, the [EMAIL PROTECTED] Osmarender layer has been able to display it, since almost when almien began the work in importing PGS coastline data. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Coastline in Mapnik
Artem Pavlenko skrev: I didn't mean this was something new for the world, but that these coastlines are new in the Mapnik layer. Sorry to have lagged behind so shamefully :) A. You're forgiven - IF you promise to go out and log the location of not less than 20 pubs in your area, submit the data, and get them rendered on both the Mapnik and Osmarender layer, before the end of February. Extra points for sampling a beer at each pub. Extra-extra points for doing it all in one day.. ;) If you need to justify this task to a significant other, just tell the S.O. that it is physical liver-training in preparation for SOTM08 (held in the Land of Guinness, and with lots of Brits attending - Prior liver-training strongly recommended). Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Crudely-drawn pint glasses
Tom Hughes skrev: So it is reasonable or optimal for us to maintain an infinite number of custom maps for third parties that want custom maps but don't want the hassle of rendering them? And especially maps without an indication of where to bring a brit, yourself, and your extra liver to sample the local flavours of beer. Completely useless map IMHO. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Crudely-drawn pint glasses
Nick Whitelegg skrev: Anther solution would be on-demand mapping: the renderers, in whatever falvour, are online somewhere and you go through a dialogue to decide on an area, choose your features and then get a custom map back a short while later - either on screen or as a PDF or whatever. Sounds a good idea. An OSMcustommaps.org or similar could be created, a user could sign up and specify their preferences, write a Mapnik XML file specific to that user and issue them with an ID, then a user could have their custom rendered style simply by requesting tiles off that server. Since most people probably want the standard OSM maps, it would have relatively low levels of use, so I can't see bandwidth being a major issue - particularly if caching occurs. Nick And how and from where will they be invoiced, and in what way will the income be put to use in OSM ? Or do you suggest that it should be a freebie service, provided to Joe Public Esq. and Jim Company Ltd in the manner of free as in both speech AND beer ? I mean, if they need a leaflet with a costumized map showing all their store location, then ofcourse they should be able to use any and all of OSM-ressources(*) free of charge to make that map for their leaflet, right ? Dutch (*) OSM-ressources in this regard means : CPU-time, making specific mapnik XML stylesheets for people, getting pestered with requests for changes in the XML stylesheet when they find out that their company logo really looks bad, on the colourschema they specified for the map, and that their customers normally navigate through town by directions to the various pubs anyway, so could they have the pint-glasses brought back as well... Because if they are too lazy to read the instructions on getting Mapnik or one of the other rendering engines up and running to generate tiles and maps locally, you can bet they are also too lazy to write their stylesheets on their own, or even read the instructions on a potential OSMcustommaps.org site. I might be a cynical S.O.B, but based on multiple years dealing with people wanting some task done, but to lazy to do it themselves, I'm pretty sure that the above scenario is what will happen... ;) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Underground lines on the london map
OJW skrev: It's a bit distracting seeing underground train lines overlaid on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] map of London (especially when taking screenshots to use as the base for other maps) -- anyone think they could be removed, and have a separate layer for train/metro connections? (like steve's map of london underground) Why remove them ? Just adjust the stylesheet, so they aren't rendered as prominently, I.E. lighter gray than today for the underground segments of the line. Or in the case of specialtymaps, not rendered at all for the underground segments of the line. Personally I find it beneficiary to have them on the default [EMAIL PROTECTED] map layer. They ensure that the map is more complete and usable for everyday navigation IMHO. At least here in Copenhagen. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] For sale: GPS Navigation device for car/mc/scooter/bicycle - 30 € inc. shipping.
As I have purchased a new Magellan CrossOver GPS device for use on my city-scooter, I am selling my old navigation solution cheaply on a first come, first serve basis, for only 30 € including shipping. The device stands almost as new, with just a tiny bump on one side, caused by going sideways on a slippery road. Some facts: - complete worldwide mappack included. - largest display on the market, 360 degree view - mount fits for both car and motorcycle, and can be adapted for bicycle. - very userfriendly and simple to use - point interface. - colour: blue - comes with World Wide compatible recharging interface. - waterproof exceeding IPX7 standards. As said, it's sold on a first come, first served basis, for only 30 € including shipping. Picture of the device can be found here : http://www.billig-scooter.dk/galleri/1702.jpg ;) Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TIGER has only a week to go
Andy Allan skrev: On Jan 15, 2008 6:01 PM, Robert (Jamie) Munro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to: http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~daveh/tiger/stats.html TIGER imports will be finished in a weeks time! Should we celebrate somehow? Perhaps a press release? (Maybe give it another week so that Mapnik has all the new data) You obviously don't watch enough action movies. It'll get to 1 second remaining, and SteveC will cut the blue wire... Cheers, Andy As usual when watching action movies, I fell asleep midway. Could you please tell me, now that I am awake, is SteveC the Good Guy or the Bad Guy in this movie ?? ;) Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk
Nick Black skrev: We should catalogue the errors and send them back into the OS so they can do better next time. Just send them a dump of the DB, and then look for a CC-by-SA OSM copyright notice on the OS Mastermap, sometime within the next 6 month. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Adding vmap0 road data to OSM
Will Harrison skrev: Hello All, I'm involved with the FlightGear Flight Simulator (http://www.flightgear.org) and I've volunteered to help the custom scenery project (http://www.custom-scenery.org/Home.223.0.html) by adding vmap0 road data to OSM. I originally tried to start this task on my own, but I quickly realized that I probably won't be able to do this on my own. Basically, I'm wondering if anyone is interested in helping. Vmap0 contains road data for the entire world. The road data is available here: ftp://ftp.ihg.uni-duisburg.de/FlightGear/TGShapes/ The file that contain the road data are called roads_freeway.tar.bz2 and roads_road.tar.bz2. Once extracted, the data can be loaded into an editor like QGIS. Then it's possible to view the roads and add them to OSM. This would benefit the custom scenery project, since once all the vmap0 road data have been added to OSM the intent is to use OSM data for the scenery. But I think this could also be very helpful to the OSM project, as vmap0 contains data for the entire world and it would give OSM at least rough coverage of the entire globe. Is anyone interested in helping? vmap0, at least for Denmark (and probably a lot of other countries in Europe) is hopelessly outdated, and hopelessly imprecise. I've seen discrepancies of between 400 to 1800 meters error for the location of danish roads in vmap0 (and no, it was not due to different datums used). So IMNSHO, thanks, but no thanks for any country where there already are data. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] My Openstreetmap talk at 24C3
Frederik Ramm skrev: It i s going to be a real book, German Language, about 300 pages, and aims to have everything the would-be mapper needs to get going, as well as an overview about the technical background of the project (i.e. data model, XML, and stuff). We assume it is going to hit the market some time in February. Try to get your publisher to sign a deal with a GPSdevice supplier, such as Magellan, Garmin, or similar. Such a book just begs to have a GPS device bundled with it. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] proposed feature, opinions requested
Frederik Ramm skrev: Hi, Including landuse=ToiletAndBathAreaAtRoskildeFestival_Bring_NoseClamp_On_Day_Two_and_Later. I'm suggesting a shitty-brownish-yellow color for that one, right away. Is it really necessary to go that finegrained down, in the definition of the landuse tag ? No, I think that landusue=ToiletAndBathArea would suffice, maybe amended by surface=swamp and hazard=odour. Bye Frederik Let me guess - You've also been to one of the wet Roskilde Festivals, 'cause that certainly describes it very well according to my memories.. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Render icons for parking areas
Karl Eichwalder skrev: ... more interesting features such as pubs, historical buildings,footways, etc. Rendering the yellow areas is fine, thou. I just love the priority you used in that list! ;) Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
