Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
On 2020-02-15 21:27, Richard wrote: On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 09:38:03AM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Am Do., 13. Feb. 2020 um 13:42 Uhr schrieb Maarten Deen : > From wikipedia (if that is an authority) > it isn't. getting better and better: we have now a discussion on the labeling of Antifa, definition of facism, authority of Wikipedia, what next? * less politics is better for OSM * I would not be happy if anyone could mashup his logo with that of OSM I was almost going to do a mashup for an Open Source Street Map project, with a nice SS logo inside to troll for reactions. But I think I'd better not. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 04:01:23PM -0500, Mario Frasca wrote: > On 15/02/2020 15:27, Richard wrote: > >getting better and better: we have now a discussion on the labeling > >of Antifa, definition of facism, authority of Wikipedia, what next? > > > >* less politics is better for OSM > >* I would not be happy if anyone could mashup his logo with that of OSM > > > >Richard >... In my opinion, participating to OSM is a political > statement. and still in my opinion, doing politics by participating to OSM > does not translate to any political affiliation. perfectly agree to that even if we don't know that politics is. > since this mashup does not suggest my own endorsement, I don't see the > problem. > > now I guess it's up to the OSMF to decide what they think. waiting to see the outcry when Trump, PiS, Salvini, Orban, the AfD or Bolsonaro create their mashup with the OSM logo. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
On 15/02/2020 15:27, Richard wrote: getting better and better: we have now a discussion on the labeling of Antifa, definition of facism, authority of Wikipedia, what next? * less politics is better for OSM * I would not be happy if anyone could mashup his logo with that of OSM Richard what's politics. In my opinion, participating to OSM is a political statement. and still in my opinion, doing politics by participating to OSM does not translate to any political affiliation. but I am aware that most people say "politics" to say "affiliation to a political party" or even "stealing by clientelism". anyhow. since this mashup does not suggest my own endorsement, I don't see the problem. now I guess it's up to the OSMF to decide what they think. MF ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 09:38:03AM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > Am Do., 13. Feb. 2020 um 13:42 Uhr schrieb Maarten Deen : > > > From wikipedia (if that is an authority) > > > it isn't. getting better and better: we have now a discussion on the labeling of Antifa, definition of facism, authority of Wikipedia, what next? * less politics is better for OSM * I would not be happy if anyone could mashup his logo with that of OSM Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
Hi, I do not know the situation in other countries, but in Germany trademarks are only protected for commercial usage. It is their purpose. Regards Sebastian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
Hi, Thank you for your comment, Rory. You seem like a reasonable person. Thank you for talking about the subject in a casual way and without the fanaticism that others often show when their ideas are criticized. I was censored on an informal communication channel of the OSM community in Spain. I can speak as a person affected by the decision of those who do not know how to disassociate their personal (or group) ideology from OSM affairs. I was accused of using their contact channel to share messages with "political and ideological" content. It is false, absolutely false, ridiculously false, an infamous lie. I have never had any discussion of political content on any OSM communication channel, formal or informal. I never talk about politics, not even with my friends. On the other hand, I am usually very respectful of the rules of the community, so I will hardly make improper use of OSM communication channels. I have my own opinions about anti-fascist symbols. I will not share my opinions with you because, as always, I never discuss politics in OSM communication channels. I don't think we should bring political discussions to these forums. They do not benefit us. Let's the OSM Foundation or their legal group decide on the appropriate use of their logos. The Foundation is the owner of the rights, so let's them decide. There are some points in your message that I don't agree with. Or at least, not how they're posed. But whatever, it's the same. I don't care what everyone individually thinks of the project or whatever everyone thinks is its inherent ideology. I am only interested in the fact that all these ideas, prejudices or beliefs do not interfere with our work and collaboration. The proper use of the OSM marks is best left to the Foundation to decide. Greetings from Spain. Regards, Daniel -- Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/General-Discussion-f5171242.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
Am Do., 13. Feb. 2020 um 13:42 Uhr schrieb Maarten Deen : > From wikipedia (if that is an authority) > it isn't. Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
Hello fellow OSMers! So this is from me. Last year I made some mashups of the OSM logo. There is often a lot of big business presence at tech/FLOSS conferences now, so I thought “What would be the opposite of that?” I am pretty lefty, and I do like OSM's anarchistic/do-ocracy/flat/non-hierarchical tradition anyway. So I ordered these stickers for a laugh, and they (& the LGBTQ designs) were quite popular. I don't believe it breeches the OSMF Trademark policy. §3.5 allows remixed logos for user group logos. §3.2 & §3.4 allow the use of stickers. (There is plenty of other examples of OSM trademark use BTW ) I thought it was clear that it didn't reflect OSMF policy, but I'm sure I can communicate that better, to avoid all doubt. Mea Culpa. §2.2 of the Trademark policy does require a more explicit notice, which I've now added to the wiki page. §2.3 says I shouldn't suggest OSMF endorsement, and I don't want to suggest, or imply, OSMF affiliation or endorsement! I've added a message the wiki page for that image. Do you think that suffices? Yes, by definition all democratic societies are "anti-fascist", but even I know the logo is more than just "anti-fascist", and... controversial. _However_ I need to think on this. We have a lot of work to do. We have a whole world to map. I don't want everyone to fight, or external people to get mistaken ideas about OSM. Someone might have a false idea of one thing, and (falsely) think all of OSM is like that. That can go both ways: Right wing, bigoted, politicians sometimes claim "antifa are violent terrorists" (cf. Trump after the Charlottesville rally). “OSM doesn't have a Code of Conduct, and they just banned the antifa logo saying it's a horrible violent organization!” could make some marginalized groups (falsely) think OSM is full of a certain type of hostile person! As well as OSM being inherently political, "No politics" can (in practice) translate to "Don't act gay, and people are allowed be homophobic to you and you can't complain" (etc). If you think it's OK for people to act gay/etc in an OSM event, then a "no politics" rule communicates quite the opposite (alas). IMO you should rephrase. Yes, the OSM community/OSMF should think about what kinds of (political) issues we should (& shouldn't) get involved with, and what should be in our spaces. (hey... maybe there should be some sort of code of how you can conduct yourself in OSM spaces 樂) So I need to think. My email inbox is open if anyone wants to give suggestions/(confidential?) advice/tell me to knock it off/tell me to keep going. Just cause something is legal, or within the trademark policy, doesn't mean it's always a good idea. Yours, in mapping, Rory P.S.: For the avoidance of doubt: I paid for all these myself. This email (& the logo) represent my personal opinions, not those of the OSMF board, the OSMF, the OSM project, etc. I paid for these myself. These stickers are not part of the newly founded CWG's promotional material programme. I designed & got them well before I thought about running for the board. On 10.02.20 16:57, Midgard wrote: Hi, Someone created a mashup[1] between the logos of OpenStreetMap and Antifa, a collective of militant groups which are known to use violence. This graphic is distributed on stickers.[2] I'm asking to cease use of this logo. I think it's a bad idea to create material that associates OpenStreetMap with political groups. I suspect there are also trademark issues with the mashup. [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:2019_OSM_Anarchist_Antifa_logo.svg [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Promotional_Material_Programme#Swag_from_Individual_OSMers Kind regards, Midgard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
Quoting Christoph Hormann (2020-02-13 15:06:21) > On Monday 10 February 2020, Midgard wrote: > > > > I think it's a bad idea to create material that associates > > OpenStreetMap with political groups. I suspect there are also > > trademark issues with the mashup. > > No, the trademark policy is pretty clear on that: > > https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Trademark_Policy > > in section 3.5. There's also section 2.1 that forbids using a mark that "confuses users by suggesting endorsement by, or affiliation with, the OSMF". I think that is violated here. Kind regards, Midgard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
On Monday 10 February 2020, Midgard wrote: > > I think it's a bad idea to create material that associates > OpenStreetMap with political groups. I suspect there are also > trademark issues with the mashup. No, the trademark policy is pretty clear on that: https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Trademark_Policy in section 3.5. If the Mafia (in Germany a criminal organization under §129 StGB - something the Antifa does not qualify as) would create a remix of the OSM logo with their logo (if they had one) to promote the use of OSM in organized crime or promote the contribution of their members to OSM that would be perfectly fine as far as the OSMF trademark policy is concerned. One possible constraint for having a logo on the OSM wiki or having stickers with a certain logo handed out at SotM would be if that logo contains symbols that are forbidden under British law or under the local jurisdiction at the conference. I don't think this applies here regarding British law or any local law at any place where SotM has taken place in the past. For last year's SotM in Heidelberg that would for example have been cases under §86 StGB: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__86.html which does not apply to the logo in question. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
Hi, Quoting Florian Lohoff (2020-02-13 12:59:23) > Just nitpicking but "militant groups" is a little far fetched. Antifa is > the abbreviation for "Anti fascist" and by no means has anything to do > with militant activities. > > Putting the Antifa into the militant left wing edge is polemic of a lot > of right wing, facist or nationalist partys in the rise in a lot of > European countries. I have contacted the creator of the logo via PM with the same request, they did not react to my description of antifa as violent, instead asking me to make a comparison to militaries. The different language editions of Wikipedia use varying terminology to describe Antifa. The English one describes it as militant anti-fascist groups that engage in property damage, physical violence, and harassment.[1] The German one says that the violent antifa movements self-describe as "militant antifascists". It does acknowledge that antifa is left to far-left.[2] I conclude that it's possible to have differing impressions of antifa. (Think of the blind men and the elephant.[3]) My impression is that there are violent antifa groups. Your antifa groups may be more peaceful, but the logo is the same, and the overall impression will be "endorses violent groups" for people who have that impression of antifa. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(Germany) [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant > I agree that OSM should not by itself get into the trouble of > sympathising with any political views. OTOH the idea of Anti Facism should > be within OSMs interest as we want to be a welcoming, divers and > globally collaborating group of individuals. > > Facism OTOH is the exact opposite of what the OSM Community wants to be > so i sympathise with the idea of parts or the whole of the community > opposing facism. > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Community_Code_of_Conduct_(Draft) I'm definitely not fascist either. But in my experience, antifa stands for more than just being opposed to fascism. It also includes hints of anarchy and use of violence. > As already the URLs mention this is not an official OSM position but > individuals making mashups. These stickers were handed out at SotM 2019. If you see a sticker, you don't see that it's not official. > From my POV the mashup is to far from > the original to be a serious and clear trademark issue. But - IANAL. It is an adaptation from https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Logo_simple.svg IANAL either, but in my interpretation of the trademark policy it's a violation of section 2.3 (Use of remixed logos) https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Trademark_Policy#2.3._No_confusion.2C_endorsement.2C_or_affiliation and section 3.5 (Use of remixed logos) https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Trademark_Policy#3.5._Use_of_remixed_logos Kind regards, Midgard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
On 13.02.20 13:38, Maarten Deen wrote: > With the risk of starting a political discussion, but you are grossly > understating the actions of the various antifa groups. > They are generally seen as militant left wing groups. I know of at least three groups having "Antifa" in ther name in my town here in Germany, only on of them has been known to be on the militant side every once in a while, and even then that mostly meant "try to prevent right wing demonstration marches from succeeding, even when they are protected by the police". So while not strictly legal, most of their actions can still be put into "civil inobedience" category, and not really the "extremist action" one IMHO There is no formal "THE Antifa" in Germany. There's for sure the "Autonome Antifa" and the so called "black block", that would qualify as unacceptable militant / extremist IMHO, but as far as I can tell they are actually a very vocal, but nonetheless rather small fraction of all the different groups collecting themselves under the "Antifa" label. -- hartmut ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
On 2020-02-13 12:59, Florian Lohoff wrote: On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 04:57:40PM +0100, Midgard wrote: Hi, Someone created a mashup[1] between the logos of OpenStreetMap and Antifa, a collective of militant groups which are known to use violence. This graphic is distributed on stickers.[2] Just nitpicking but "militant groups" is a little far fetched. Antifa is the abbreviation for "Anti fascist" and by no means has anything to do with militant activities. Putting the Antifa into the militant left wing edge is polemic of a lot of right wing, facist or nationalist partys in the rise in a lot of European countries. With the risk of starting a political discussion, but you are grossly understating the actions of the various antifa groups. They are generally seen as militant left wing groups. From wikipedia (if that is an authority) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_%28Germany%29#Government_and_police_monitoring_of_Antifa The Federal Agency for Civic Education notes that Antifa groups sometimes call for violence not only against police or skinheads but also against bishops and judges. There are slogans like "antifascism means attack", not only against the far right but also against the political system of the Federal Republic of Germany Especially the last portion makes me shun away from antifa as much as I do from fascism. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
Hi, On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 04:57:40PM +0100, Midgard wrote: > Hi, > > Someone created a mashup[1] between the logos of OpenStreetMap and Antifa, a > collective of militant > groups which are known to use violence. This graphic is distributed on > stickers.[2] Just nitpicking but "militant groups" is a little far fetched. Antifa is the abbreviation for "Anti fascist" and by no means has anything to do with militant activities. Putting the Antifa into the militant left wing edge is polemic of a lot of right wing, facist or nationalist partys in the rise in a lot of European countries. > I'm asking to cease use of this logo. > > I think it's a bad idea to create material that associates OpenStreetMap with > political groups. > I suspect there are also trademark issues with the mashup. I agree that OSM should not by itself get into the trouble of sympathising with any political views. OTOH the idea of Anti Facism should be within OSMs interest as we want to be a welcoming, divers and globally collaborating group of individuals. Facism OTOH is the exact opposite of what the OSM Community wants to be so i sympathise with the idea of parts or the whole of the community opposing facism. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Community_Code_of_Conduct_(Draft) > [1] > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:2019_OSM_Anarchist_Antifa_logo.svg > [2] > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Promotional_Material_Programme#Swag_from_Individual_OSMers As already the URLs mention this is not an official OSM position but individuals making mashups. From my POV the mashup is to far from the original to be a serious and clear trademark issue. But - IANAL. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de UTF-8 Test: The ran after a , but the ran away signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
Hi, Someone created a mashup[1] between the logos of OpenStreetMap and Antifa, a collective of militant groups which are known to use violence. This graphic is distributed on stickers.[2] I'm asking to cease use of this logo. I think it's a bad idea to create material that associates OpenStreetMap with political groups. I suspect there are also trademark issues with the mashup. [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:2019_OSM_Anarchist_Antifa_logo.svg [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Promotional_Material_Programme#Swag_from_Individual_OSMers Kind regards, Midgard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
