Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
Hi, On 07/13/11 02:10, David Murn wrote: I have deleted all my accounts [...] Seriously Richard, I hope you burn in hell for the destruction youve caused and continue to cause to the OSM project. I must congratulate David on his decision. Let us all remember that this is a hobby project (for most of us at least), an interesting and usually productive pastime which should make the participating individual happy. If any of you, at any time, feel that they seriously wish someone else in the project to burn in hell; if you can't sleep because someone was wrong on the mailing list; if you're thinking of ways to take revenge on the guy who reverted your wiki edit - if any of that happens, then the project has clearly failed to deliver the fun it promised, and it is time to move on. Life is just too short! Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On Wed, 2011-07-13 at 08:33 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: Seriously Richard, I hope you burn in hell for the destruction youve caused and continue to cause to the OSM project. I must congratulate David on his decision. Let us all remember that this is a hobby project (for most of us at least), an interesting and usually productive pastime which should make the participating individual happy. If any of you, at any time, feel that they seriously wish someone else in the project to burn in hell; if you can't sleep because someone was wrong on the mailing list; if you're thinking of ways to take revenge on the guy who reverted your wiki edit - if any of that happens, then the project has clearly failed to deliver the fun it promised, and it is time to move on. Life is just too short! as always, very sensible. -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com Coimbatore LUG rox http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: I'm guessing it has to do with this? http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2011-July/008350.html Yeah, I suppose. Although I'm at a loss to understand how imposing moderation on a mailing list that clearly has a problem with uncivil behaviour and protracted rants could be the trigger for such extreme anger. Then again, I really don't get why Frederik would congratulate someone on burning all their work as they leave. David's traces were clearly valuable to our project, and it's sad that he's destroying them like this. Let's just call it like it is. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On 13/07/2011 02:10, David Murn wrote: On Tue, 2011-07-12 at 10:16 +0100, Dave F. wrote: On 11/07/2011 17:56, Mikel Maron wrote: Everyone This thread was on the topic of the atmosphere of the Australian community and talk-au, -Mikel on behalf of Talk Moderators Then, as a moderator, you should give Steve C. a warning for polluting this general talk forum with irrelevant waffling. Incase you havent learnt, the moderation is there to stop anyone else drowning out SteveC on the list. In one foul swoop, Richard has destroyed my interest in OSM.. 5 years of mapping contributions, code contributions, discussion contributions, and we get treated like this. I have deleted all my accounts, all my subscriptions, and am in the process of deleting 12 months of GPX traces and OSM files that Ive built up from my round-australia travels, mostly on highways which have never been mapped, and wont be mapped unless someone else takes the week-long roadtrip. Some non aussies came onto the aussie list and stirred up a few big arguments, so you ban the aussies, rather than the international pests. What you should have done, was blocked everyone non-aussie from the list, or at least bothered to look at the history (or ask ANYONE) who uses the list. Then, when a few people criticized him for his decision, he disappears. Seriously Richard, I hope you burn in hell for the destruction youve caused and continue to cause to the OSM project. David Wow David! From Toby's post, I assume this diatribe is in response to this: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2011-July/008350.html Richard is a calm, thoughtful, intelligent guy who listens to people and tries to create a fun, global, human environment for our project. Steve has made one post making a considered overview of an ugly situation and inviting discussion ... a proper course of action for the founder of our project to take. I personally hope you will also calm down, withdraw unwarranted personal insults and consider apologising. I don't like the idea of moderation much either, perhaps a reason why I have been asked to be one, but, paradoxically, this post rather comes across as a slam-dunk justification. Mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 9:46 AM, Michael Collinson m...@ayeltd.biz wrote: Richard is a calm, thoughtful, intelligent guy who listens to people and tries to create a fun, global, human environment for our project. +1 Steve has made one post making a considered overview of an ugly situation and inviting discussion ... a proper course of action for the founder of our project to take. Michael, If you carefully read Steve's post, you will see that some people may find it insulting. For example he is belittling Etienne's efforts. He expresses a dislike of pseudonyms which may bring into question his motivation(s) for resetting the list. I personally hope you (David) will also calm down, withdraw unwarranted personal insults and consider apologising. +1 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
Frederik Ramm wrote: I must congratulate David on his decision. [...] If any of you, at any time, feel that they seriously wish someone else in the project to burn in hell; if you can't sleep because someone was wrong on the mailing list; if you're thinking of ways to take revenge on the guy who reverted your wiki edit - if any of that happens, then the project has clearly failed to deliver the fun it promised, and it is time to move on. Life is just too short! Agreed 100%. That's why I started the Going separate ways thread: there's no point in all this gut-wrenching when plenty of alternatives are now available. Just find the one that suits your beliefs and enjoy contributing to it, rather than being miserable within OSM. I hope David enjoys FOSM or CommonMap. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Hitting-reset-on-talk-au-tp6569961p6578539.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 12:53 AM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 11:07 PM, Shalabh shalab...@gmail.com wrote: And to echo Steve Bennet's comment, I am at a loss to find anything bad enough said by any Richard to justify this rant. I'm guessing it has to do with this? http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2011-July/008350.html Has there been any followup to that? I still can't figure out what was done. First we were on moderation, then off it, then on it again. And while we were on, I have no idea what went through, what didn't, and why. Anyone know what's going on? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On 7/13/2011 2:58 AM, Nic Roets wrote: Steve has made one post making a considered overview of an ugly situation and inviting discussion ... a proper course of action for the founder of our project to take. Michael, If you carefully read Steve's post, you will see that some people may find it insulting. For example he is belittling Etienne's efforts. Far from belittling, I've elevated his efforts to a direct threat to the project in my mind. He expresses a dislike of pseudonyms which may bring into question his motivation(s) for resetting the list. I hadn't really thought about the pseudonym thing until a while ago when someone sent around the 'poisonous people' talk video done I think at google. One of their very first points is to note that trolls usually use pseudonyms and if you can stop that then things can get a lot better. Personally I'm very libertarian and would otherwise support using pseudonyms. But sadly when it reaches the limit case where essentially every troll is a pseudonym it's hard to justify it anymore. I personally hope you (David) will also calm down, withdraw unwarranted personal insults and consider apologising. +1 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Check out frontdoor - http://frontdoor.cloudapp.net/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
Steve Coast wrote: Personally I'm very libertarian and would otherwise support using pseudonyms. But sadly when it reaches the limit case where essentially every troll is a pseudonym it's hard to justify it anymore. I'm confused. You say that things have gotten to where people are being harassed in real life. Won't forcing people to use their real names increase the possibility of this? -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Hitting-reset-on-talk-au-tp6569961p6580718.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: I hadn't really thought about the pseudonym thing until a while ago when someone sent around the 'poisonous people' talk video done I think at google. One of their very first points is to note that trolls usually use pseudonyms and if you can stop that then things can get a lot better. I just watched the video. It didn't say that at all. It said (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 around 27:20) that poisonous people tend to: *use silly nicknames (the example was crazyjoe53woo) *use multiple nicknames in different media *overuse capital letters *use excessive punctuation *OMG WTFBBG *generally have a lack of clue ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On 11/07/2011 17:56, Mikel Maron wrote: Everyone This thread was on the topic of the atmosphere of the Australian community and talk-au, -Mikel on behalf of Talk Moderators Then, as a moderator, you should give Steve C. a warning for polluting this general talk forum with irrelevant waffling. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On Tue, 2011-07-12 at 10:16 +0100, Dave F. wrote: On 11/07/2011 17:56, Mikel Maron wrote: Everyone This thread was on the topic of the atmosphere of the Australian community and talk-au, -Mikel on behalf of Talk Moderators Then, as a moderator, you should give Steve C. a warning for polluting this general talk forum with irrelevant waffling. Incase you havent learnt, the moderation is there to stop anyone else drowning out SteveC on the list. In one foul swoop, Richard has destroyed my interest in OSM.. 5 years of mapping contributions, code contributions, discussion contributions, and we get treated like this. I have deleted all my accounts, all my subscriptions, and am in the process of deleting 12 months of GPX traces and OSM files that Ive built up from my round-australia travels, mostly on highways which have never been mapped, and wont be mapped unless someone else takes the week-long roadtrip. Some non aussies came onto the aussie list and stirred up a few big arguments, so you ban the aussies, rather than the international pests. What you should have done, was blocked everyone non-aussie from the list, or at least bothered to look at the history (or ask ANYONE) who uses the list. Then, when a few people criticized him for his decision, he disappears. Seriously Richard, I hope you burn in hell for the destruction youve caused and continue to cause to the OSM project. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 10:10 AM, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote: In one foul swoop, Richard has destroyed my interest in OSM.. 5 years of mapping contributions, code contributions, discussion contributions, and we get treated like this. I have deleted all my accounts, all my subscriptions, and am in the process of deleting 12 months of GPX traces and OSM files that Ive built up from my round-australia travels, mostly on highways which have never been mapped, and wont be mapped unless someone else takes the week-long roadtrip. Which Richard? What did they do? I'm looking for a comment that could have provoked such outrage, and not seeing it? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 5:40 AM, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote: On Tue, 2011-07-12 at 10:16 +0100, Dave F. wrote: On 11/07/2011 17:56, Mikel Maron wrote: Everyone This thread was on the topic of the atmosphere of the Australian community and talk-au, -Mikel on behalf of Talk Moderators Then, as a moderator, you should give Steve C. a warning for polluting this general talk forum with irrelevant waffling. Incase you havent learnt, the moderation is there to stop anyone else drowning out SteveC on the list. In one foul swoop, Richard has destroyed my interest in OSM.. 5 years of mapping contributions, code contributions, discussion contributions, and we get treated like this. I have deleted all my accounts, all my subscriptions, and am in the process of deleting 12 months of GPX traces and OSM files that Ive built up from my round-australia travels, mostly on highways which have never been mapped, and wont be mapped unless someone else takes the week-long roadtrip. David, As a mostly silent observer of the foul stuff that goes on here, I have a question for you. Do you believe in OSM for what Richard thinks of you and your contributions or do you just believe in OSM because it is open and good? And to echo Steve Bennet's comment, I am at a loss to find anything bad enough said by any Richard to justify this rant. Regards, Shalabh Some non aussies came onto the aussie list and stirred up a few big arguments, so you ban the aussies, rather than the international pests. What you should have done, was blocked everyone non-aussie from the list, or at least bothered to look at the history (or ask ANYONE) who uses the list. Then, when a few people criticized him for his decision, he disappears. Seriously Richard, I hope you burn in hell for the destruction youve caused and continue to cause to the OSM project. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 11:07 PM, Shalabh shalab...@gmail.com wrote: And to echo Steve Bennet's comment, I am at a loss to find anything bad enough said by any Richard to justify this rant. I'm guessing it has to do with this? http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2011-July/008350.html Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
Sorry this was supposed to be copied to legal-talk, not the osm-fork list. Apologies. On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 4:35 PM, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Michael Collinson m...@ayeltd.bizwrote: ** If it is UK Ordnance Survey data that is the issue, we now have direct clarification from them that they have no objection to continued distribution of data derived from their OS OpenData under under the ODbL. At the moment, this excludes Code-Point Open, (postcode) data. Hope that helps. The statement from the OS did not specify what content license was to be used for their content. They did not explicitly mention that their content could be included using the DbCL. My understanding is that the OpenData license would be the one that was applicable unless a more permissive license was *explicitly* granted by them, which it was not. Is this a correct reading of how things stand at the moment or have OS subsequently clarified that they are happy for their content to be licensed using DbCL within a database that is protected by ODbL? ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
I'm speaking strictly personally here, posting to talk@ and opengeodata. OSM often crosses bridges in it's growth. Mostly they're technical, like introducing color maps, rendering new things or speeding up the system. We have a much more ugly bridge to cross in front of us. Would you want to be part of a community which includes people explicitly working to disrupt it, trolling it and breaking data? Would you want to be part of a community where people are literally scared for their jobs when thinking about helping run it? Over the last few days there has been a bunch of discussion on talk-au which you can read in the archives, though for your own sanity you might want to skip it. For the most part the posts revolve around the OSMF, the LWG and the license process. I considered my presence there over the last few days as both a last ditch attempt to salvage the data and more importantly the community that's there. As RichardF pointed out, their license acceptance rate is about half what most EU communities have achieved. I would say that the people on that list feel disaffected with the process and their representation in it. Despite multiple attempts at trying to have a reasonable dialog over both what happened and what we can do about it, mostly I've been met with extreme animosity. Most of that comes from people either banned from the main lists, been deleted/blocked from OSM or been moderated or who have publicly stated they're here to disrupt the project. I've tried to get many people involved posting there in what I thought was a worthwhile effort, in effect to save that list. Almost everybody declined to do so. Only RichardF braved it and was met with a predictable response. Frederik has given up and from my reading of his email considers talk-au dead (I think you should make that email public). I find that understandable. I've been trying to find someone to moderate the list along the Etiquette guidelines on the wiki. Mikel has given up, understandably, and he leads the main moderators. We found one native Australian to moderate but they backed out because they literally feared for their job safety, that the people who now inhabit the list would make life with their employer difficult. Thus, they declined to do so after initially accepting. I actually am convinced that was the right decision and the people on that list are capable of it. I don't think anyone I know in OSM would want to be part of a community like that. I think it's a sad low point in what otherwise is a wonderful project to be involved in. Let me be more clear, *I* don't want to be part of a community that accepts this. Who in their right mind would want to be a part of a community run by people explicitly out to disrupt, fork and troll? In the best traditions of open projects our ideas and code are Free. It's not clear that our time and server resources should be. Unlike our ideas and code, they're finite and open to abuse. Make no mistake that our time and resources are being used explicitly to destabilize the very project which provides them. Used by mostly anonymous or pseudonymous people who as I say have been kicked, banned or explicitly stated they want to destabilize OSM. This is not about censorship. If you read the lists, you'll find we've made available repeatedly both the methods and the people to help resolve issues. These people are free to fork the project and the data, it's all available for download. They have their own mailing lists. Are there genuine questions about license, it's implementation and so on? Absolutely. But level-headed discussion is not welcome on talk-au for the most part. There are a few people who can discuss this stuff impersonally there but it's a small part of the list. Now - why are we at this point? The OSMF and the working groups, the apparatus of how a chunk of this project is set up, are unable to deal with direct threats like this, even if it's been going on for a year or more. One of the main forks of OSM (if you can call it main, it doesn't yet display a map) is run by an ex-board member. When you have someone like that working together with those who've explicitly declared they want to disrupt OSM, it's very hard for a young, open and democratic organization to deal with. For the most part we have no idea how many of these people are even real too, it's been suggested that a few of the pseudonyms are in fact just one person creating them on the fly. We simply don't have the tools for it. Until last week we had no moderation at all, and that took many, many months (perhaps years) to set up. The board meets too infrequently to be able to respond to people explicitly working for its downfall, which perhaps is a little ironic. The working groups likewise I don't think have the bandwidth as they currently operate. Generally in an otherwise do-ocracy there is a lack of people who feel they have the authority to take on
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
Steve Coast wrote: Would you want to be part of a community which includes people explicitly working to disrupt it, trolling it and breaking data? No, I don't like breaking data. That's why I oppose the license change. Steve Coast wrote: We can block the 'main' people. Then you have to draw the line somewhere between the good and the bad anonymous posters. I would suggest anyone who's posted that they want to disrupt the project and anyone operating under a pseudonym. Is this what we can expect for the project in the future? Anyone using a pseudonym is a second-class mapper? -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Hitting-reset-on-talk-au-tp6569961p6570147.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
OSM _is_ going to switch to a new license - it needs to, to allow people to make a living out of drawing maps (etc) based on the data. Data has to be open, shared, and attributed to stop it being gobbled by non-sharers. Exploitation of that data has to be saleable. That is what the new license does. It is time to accept that and move on. Just leave them to talk amongst themselves. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
My 2 cents (as an ex-pat Aussie I'm mildly interested in the state of the map down under): we can't fix anything that the Australian community doesn't want to fix. It's really up to -them- to remedy the mistakes -they- made (ABS2006 import and similar). I don't believe anybody in the project, the least the OSMF, has the resources available to do it for them. And the same goes for the mailing list. I for one, would support some pretty drastic measures by the Australian community (like deleting all data/reverting all changesets from JohnSmith et al. rather today than tomorrow). Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
- Original Message - From: Steve Coast st...@asklater.com To: talk@openstreetmap.org; talk...@openstreetmap.org Cc: p...@opengeodata.posterous.com Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 8:00 AM Subject: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au [snip] Maybe you have a better option? Yes. Do nothing. Invariably these things settle down after a few days, and any knee jerk reaction is likely to be overkill. If people don't want to subscribe to talk-au they don't have to, so its not something that's likely to me a main concern of the majority of people on the main talk list. Either way, this is an ugly bridge to cross. We need to do something to make it clear this is not how things work in OSM. I think you have just made it clear. We need to make the message heard that this is not normal, this is not the reputation we want to be known by and we won't let it be this way. I think you might be giving undue prominence to the postings on talk-au. At the end of the day our reputation will be based on the quality of our data, the ease of use of contributing, and the ease of use of using our data, rather than a few days worth of postings to a country specific email list. Regards David Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On 11/07/2011 8:08 PM, Simon Poole wrote: It's really up to -them- to remedy the mistakes -they- made (ABS2006 import and similar). I'm sad to think you characterise ABS2006 as a mistake. *** Warning - some licensing discussion follows *** ABS2006 is a CC BY dataset isn't it? While I haven't been following many of the latest arguments, for me it seems the irreconcilable differences stem from: * The Australian Government is in love with the CC By and related CC licences for any Australian publicly funded information, refer www.ausgoal.gov.au for the latest incarnation of this policy. * AusGov seem to have no problem with the use of CC By for databases. * Mappers are in love with the highest quality open representation of the map possible (I assume). * If ABS2006 is a mistake licensing-wise, then it would be a mistake to import any Australian Government geodata into OSM these days. * Some of these AusGov geodatasets are hard to simulate any other way (e.g. land parcels and suburb boundaries). * The move away from CC By-SA materially reduces the quality available to the OSM map in Australia - both from Government and Nearmap sources. * People get cranky if their perceived quality of life gets threatened - the quality of the OSM data in Australia being a proxy for this in the Australian OSMming community. This is the main reason why I created CommonMap. I am not interested in share-alike (geodata that is freely published cannot be taken) and I am interested in the highest quality open representation of the map possible. It seems, for better or for worse, that there is no longer a way to do this using OSM in the Australian context. Brendan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
Hi, On 07/11/11 14:46, Brendan Morley wrote: * If ABS2006 is a mistake licensing-wise, then it would be a mistake to import any Australian Government geodata into OSM these days. I belive importing *any* data into OSM is a mistake most of the time. It doesn't help you at all in building a community. If the foundation of your project are imports then you'll utimately have a few bigwigs writing the scripts and deciding how things are done. That's a different kind of project - a collection of open government data maybe. I believe ESRI are doing something like that. But you'll not find a community caring for your imported gov't data. There's really no reason for official land parcel data in OSM. Importing official land parcel data will certainly deteriorate, and not improve, the quality of OSM. If someone in Australia was really planning to import that, and is now hindered by the license change, then I must say the license change came just at the right time. (Mind you, the new license doesn't seem to keep the Brits from drawing on attribution-only sources released by *their* government but maybe the law is stricter down under?) Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
OSM is two things one is a set of technical standards, that's the easy part, the other is a group of people which is much more difficult. People can feel frustrated because their concerns are not being addressed an a solution is being imposed. Personally my preference is for an accurate map with lots of detail. Unfortunately in some parts of the world OSM does not have enough mappers with enough technical equipment (accurate GPS devices) or skill to be able to do this. Cheerio John On 11 July 2011 03:00, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: I'm speaking strictly personally here, posting to talk@ and opengeodata. I don't think anyone I know in OSM would want to be part of a community like that. I think it's a sad low point in what otherwise is a wonderful project to be involved in. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On 11 July 2011 22:58, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: (Mind you, the new license doesn't seem to keep the Brits from drawing on attribution-only sources released by *their* government but maybe the law is stricter down under?) SteveC implied that the talks with OS were more fruitful than they were with NearMap, either that is allowed or it isn't and people should be told to stop if it's not. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
It's a very sad day when OSM boasts that it includes data that shouldn't be there because of licensing. I inadvertently included some grey material and requested it be deleted from OSM, that request was ignored. Doesn't say much about OSM's ethics does it? Cheerio John (Mind you, the new license doesn't seem to keep the Brits from drawing on attribution-only sources released by *their* government but maybe the law is stricter down under?) Bye Frederik __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
Hi, On 07/11/11 15:17, john whelan wrote: I inadvertently included some grey material and requested it be deleted from OSM, that request was ignored. Are you a different John Whelan from the John Whelan who deleted (not requested it to be deleted but deleted without prior discussion) lots of his imported data in Canada, tearing down with it contributions by many others, because of so-called license doubts when at the same time a member of the government agency that released the data went on record on talk-ca to say everything is all right? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
Hi Frederik, thanks for discussing. On 11/07/2011 10:58 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, On 07/11/11 14:46, Brendan Morley wrote: * If ABS2006 is a mistake licensing-wise, then it would be a mistake to import any Australian Government geodata into OSM these days. I belive importing *any* data into OSM is a mistake most of the time. It doesn't help you at all in building a community. If the foundation of your project are imports then you'll utimately have a few bigwigs writing the scripts and deciding how things are done. That's a different kind of project - a collection of open government data maybe. I believe ESRI are doing something like that. But you'll not find a community caring for your imported gov't data. Well as you may know I'm taking a different tack again to either of the above - essentially I want the highest quality open map. We have an opportunity (in Australia at least) to let the government inside the tent, and allow government and the community as equals in information sharing. If OSM is about building a community, over building the highest quality open map, then yes I agree we have very different visions. By the way, ESRI has its own peculiarities: refer http://commonmap.org/faq#10n127 and http://commonmap.org/faq#188n194 There's really no reason for official land parcel data in OSM. Importing official land parcel data will certainly deteriorate, and not improve, the quality of OSM. With respect I'm completely gobsmacked by this attitude. Accurate boundaries are a WIN, surely? The only trick is to preserve the foreign key, so that one can detect changes in the source dataset and synchronise changes over time. I take it personally to be honest. Often we get Public Notices in our local newspapers that refer only to Lot on Plan information. Up until now it's been very difficult to track down where in space those L/P's refer to. The whole, are they going to build a freeway next to by house kind of question. (Mind you, the new license doesn't seem to keep the Brits from drawing on attribution-only sources released by *their* government but maybe the law is stricter down under?) Indeed, I don't know why the ABS2006 data is an issue. However, I would guesstimate the Australian Government would be highly unlikely to take action, after all, AusGov wants to use the most permissive attribution licence available. However, if an OSM editor started shifting the boundaries around and still claimed it to be straight ABS data - that would be a moral rights issue. Thanks, Brendan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
As I mentioned people can get frustrated. I made three requests apparently to the incorrect people to have data deleted prior to deleting some but since have made a formal request which was ignored. The CANVEC data wasn't a major issue and could easily have been reimported, it was some of the other data that was mixed in with it that is the problem and its not so easily identifiable. I think it was Ordnance Survey identified derived data as being a problem. I would be more than happy if any data that is not labelled CANVEC import under my user id could be removed, to me CANVEC was not the major issue and that would get rid of the major source of the problem data. I can then drop back in the clean manually mapped bits. I think others interpreted CANVEC is being the problem area, I certainly didn't identify it as being the only problem. By the way under the new CT OSM can change the license on the data. CANVEC have agreed that .ODBL or SA are acceptable and I'm happy with that. However CANVEC does not have the authority to release the data when the subsequent license can be changed. As you yourself have stated the new CT is not import friendly and the uncertainty that introduced by the oh and we can change the license to whatever we like part of the new CT effectively means it is impossible to accept any imported data licensing. I think OSM's current niche is the community side and to accept individual's data to build the map and basically get out of imports. Let others build the maps that combine imports with user data. Cheerio John On 11 July 2011 09:23, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 07/11/11 15:17, john whelan wrote: I inadvertently included some grey material and requested it be deleted from OSM, that request was ignored. Are you a different John Whelan from the John Whelan who deleted (not requested it to be deleted but deleted without prior discussion) lots of his imported data in Canada, tearing down with it contributions by many others, because of so-called license doubts when at the same time a member of the government agency that released the data went on record on talk-ca to say everything is all right? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
An example of the problem data involved was using a GTFS feed that was expected to be made available under CC-By-SA, as a source. I had a verbal OK to use the data but the license has yet to be formalized and currently it looks like the legal department has come up with a license such that the data should not be included in OSM. Cheerio John On 11 July 2011 09:23, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 07/11/11 15:17, john whelan wrote: I inadvertently included some grey material and requested it be deleted from OSM, that request was ignored. Are you a different John Whelan from the John Whelan who deleted (not requested it to be deleted but deleted without prior discussion) lots of his imported data in Canada, tearing down with it contributions by many others, because of so-called license doubts when at the same time a member of the government agency that released the data went on record on talk-ca to say everything is all right? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Michael Collinson m...@ayeltd.biz wrote: ** If it is UK Ordnance Survey data that is the issue, we now have direct clarification from them that they have no objection to continued distribution of data derived from their OS OpenData under under the ODbL. At the moment, this excludes Code-Point Open, (postcode) data. Hope that helps. The statement from the OS did not specify what content license was to be used for their content. They did not explicitly mention that their content could be included using the DbCL. My understanding is that the OpenData license would be the one that was applicable unless a more permissive license was *explicitly* granted by them, which it was not. Is this a correct reading of how things stand at the moment or have OS subsequently clarified that they are happy for their content to be licensed using DbCL within a database that is protected by ODbL? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
Sorry this was supposed to be copied to legal-talk, not the osm-fork list. Apologies. On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 4:35 PM, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Michael Collinson m...@ayeltd.bizwrote: ** If it is UK Ordnance Survey data that is the issue, we now have direct clarification from them that they have no objection to continued distribution of data derived from their OS OpenData under under the ODbL. At the moment, this excludes Code-Point Open, (postcode) data. Hope that helps. The statement from the OS did not specify what content license was to be used for their content. They did not explicitly mention that their content could be included using the DbCL. My understanding is that the OpenData license would be the one that was applicable unless a more permissive license was *explicitly* granted by them, which it was not. Is this a correct reading of how things stand at the moment or have OS subsequently clarified that they are happy for their content to be licensed using DbCL within a database that is protected by ODbL? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
Am 11.07.2011 14:46, schrieb Brendan Morley: On 11/07/2011 8:08 PM, Simon Poole wrote: It's really up to -them- to remedy the mistakes -they- made (ABS2006 import and similar). I'm sad to think you characterise ABS2006 as a mistake. The import was made at a point in time when it was clear that the license change process was going to start in earnest. At least a couple of warning bells should have gone off and red lights start flashing. But I'm not complaining about that, mistakes happen and it is done deed now. BUT as you point out the Australian government has become more flexible about licensing and there is a fair chance that either the data could be relicensed under CC-by (which might be compatible with the ODbL) or that special permission could be obtained to keep the material in the database. But instead of trying to help the Australian community resolve this issue, you and others, keep on peddling their respective forks-of-the-day, which flatly is simply SPAM (in your case well disguised). Simon PS: and no I don't think that OSM should aspire to be the largest data rubbish dump in history ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
SimonPoole wrote: there is a fair chance that either the data could be relicensed under CC-by (which might be compatible with the ODbL) Absolutely. The Australian government data is CC-BY already (I'm not sure where this idea it's CC-BY-SA comes from). Negotiating compatibility with ODbL need not be difficult. I'm interested that they have a clear statement (on the ausgoal website Brendan cited) that Generally, copyright does not protect mere facts. ;) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Hitting-reset-on-talk-au-tp6569961p6571572.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On 12 July 2011 02:30, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: SimonPoole wrote: there is a fair chance that either the data could be relicensed under CC-by (which might be compatible with the ODbL) Absolutely. The Australian government data is CC-BY already (I'm not sure where this idea it's CC-BY-SA comes from). Negotiating compatibility with ODbL need not be difficult. Unless you plan to enforce attribution as a minimum for produced works, how would ODBL be compatible? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
John Smith wrote: Unless you plan to enforce attribution as a minimum for produced works I'm not quite sure what I've done to deserve this Groundhog Day treatment and be condemned to relive the same mailing list postings again and again. 4.3 You must include a notice associated with the Produced Work reasonably calculated to make any Person that uses, views, accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware that Content was obtained from the Database, Derivative Database, or the Database as part of a Collective Database, and that it is available under this License Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On 12 July 2011 02:47, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: John Smith wrote: Unless you plan to enforce attribution as a minimum for produced works I'm not quite sure what I've done to deserve this Groundhog Day treatment and be condemned to relive the same mailing list postings again and again. 4.3 You must include a notice associated with the Produced Work reasonably calculated to make any Person that uses, views, accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware that Content was obtained from the Database, Derivative Database, or the Database as part of a Collective Database, and that it is available under this License So why are people still claiming tiles could be made available under PD/CC0 then? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
Everyone Please move any relevant legal discussions to legal-talk@. This thread was on the topic of the atmosphere of the Australian community and talk-au, and while the legal issues have contributed to that, the discussion in detail of licensing issues has gotten off topic. -Mikel on behalf of Talk Moderators ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On 11/07/11 08:00, Steve Coast wrote: I'm speaking strictly personally here, posting to talk@ and opengeodata. OSM often crosses bridges in it's growth. Mostly they're technical, like introducing color maps, rendering new things or speeding up the system. We have a much more ugly bridge to cross in front of us. Would you want to be part of a community which includes people explicitly working to disrupt it, trolling it and breaking data? Would you want to be part of a community where people are literally scared for their jobs when thinking about helping run it? Over the last few days there has been a bunch of discussion on talk-au which you can read in the archives, though for your own sanity you might want to skip it. For the most part the posts revolve around the OSMF, the LWG and the license process. I considered my presence there over the last few days as both a last ditch attempt to salvage the data and more importantly the community that's there. As RichardF pointed out, their license acceptance rate is about half what most EU communities have achieved. I would say that the people on that list feel disaffected with the process and their representation in it. Despite multiple attempts at trying to have a reasonable dialog over both what happened and what we can do about it, mostly I've been met with extreme animosity. Most of that comes from people either banned from the main lists, been deleted/blocked from OSM or been moderated or who have publicly stated they're here to disrupt the project. I've tried to get many people involved posting there in what I thought was a worthwhile effort, in effect to save that list. Almost everybody declined to do so. Only RichardF braved it and was met with a predictable response. Frederik has given up and from my reading of his email considers talk-au dead (I think you should make that email public). I find that understandable. I've been trying to find someone to moderate the list along the Etiquette guidelines on the wiki. Mikel has given up, understandably, and he leads the main moderators. We found one native Australian to moderate but they backed out because they literally feared for their job safety, that the people who now inhabit the list would make life with their employer difficult. Thus, they declined to do so after initially accepting. I actually am convinced that was the right decision and the people on that list are capable of it. I don't think anyone I know in OSM would want to be part of a community like that. I think it's a sad low point in what otherwise is a wonderful project to be involved in. Let me be more clear, *I* don't want to be part of a community that accepts this. Who in their right mind would want to be a part of a community run by people explicitly out to disrupt, fork and troll? In the best traditions of open projects our ideas and code are Free. It's not clear that our time and server resources should be. Unlike our ideas and code, they're finite and open to abuse. Make no mistake that our time and resources are being used explicitly to destabilize the very project which provides them. Used by mostly anonymous or pseudonymous people who as I say have been kicked, banned or explicitly stated they want to destabilize OSM. This is not about censorship. If you read the lists, you'll find we've made available repeatedly both the methods and the people to help resolve issues. These people are free to fork the project and the data, it's all available for download. They have their own mailing lists. Are there genuine questions about license, it's implementation and so on? Absolutely. But level-headed discussion is not welcome on talk-au for the most part. There are a few people who can discuss this stuff impersonally there but it's a small part of the list. Now - why are we at this point? The OSMF and the working groups, the apparatus of how a chunk of this project is set up, are unable to deal with direct threats like this, even if it's been going on for a year or more. One of the main forks of OSM (if you can call it main, it doesn't yet display a map) is run by an ex-board member. When you have someone like that working together with those who've explicitly declared they want to disrupt OSM, it's very hard for a young, open and democratic organization to deal with. For the most part we have no idea how many of these people are even real too, it's been suggested that a few of the pseudonyms are in fact just one person creating them on the fly. We simply don't have the tools for it. Until last week we had no moderation at all, and that took many, many months (perhaps years) to set up. The board meets too infrequently to be able to respond to people explicitly working for its downfall, which perhaps is a little ironic. The working groups likewise I don't think have the bandwidth as they currently operate. Generally in an otherwise do-ocracy there is a lack of people who
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
On 12/07/2011 1:53 AM, Simon Poole wrote: Am 11.07.2011 14:46, schrieb Brendan Morley: On 11/07/2011 8:08 PM, Simon Poole wrote: It's really up to -them- to remedy the mistakes -they- made (ABS2006 import and similar). I'm sad to think you characterise ABS2006 as a mistake. The import was made at a point in time when it was clear that the license change process was going to start in earnest. At least a couple of warning bells should have gone off and red lights start flashing. I'll have to get back in my time machine to be sure, but I don't think that was clear to me at the time. I think there was plenty of enthusiasm for the fact that AusGov had finally opened something up of use to the OSM community. If the change process was in the consciousness, I think there may have still have been hope that people could vote no. But I'm not complaining about that, mistakes happen and it is done deed now. BUT as you point out the Australian government has become more flexible about licensing and there is a fair chance that either the data could be relicensed under CC-by (which might be compatible with the ODbL) or that special permission could be obtained to keep the material in the database. I think re-importing might be a better outcome. For example, Queensland now has official suburb boundaries up under CC By - better resolution than the ABS version anyway. But instead of trying to help the Australian community resolve this issue, you and others, keep on peddling their respective forks-of-the-day, The situation is irreconcilable. In my case, if I realised then what I know now, OSM was the wrong project for me to choose in the first place. That's because I believe Share Alike doesn't actually add anything in a practical sense, it actually gets in the way of better community mapping. Then again I also believe that innovation should happen at the speed of capital entrepreneurship, not just the developers' own itches. In the Australian market, OSM is caught between a rock and a hard place: * Whenever the share-alike aspect is not guaranteed forever, NearMap will refuse to be a derivation/adaptation source. (SA is an essential part of their business model - believe me, I tried to change their mind on that.) * Whenever the share-alike aspect is declared, no government will participate in the crowd-to-agency part of geodata roundtripping. Contracts are now being let that explicitly require the captured geodata to be releasable under CC By. OSM contributions by definition are simply not in the running. which flatly is simply SPAM (in your case well disguised). Fair call. Though I'm only doing this in response to Steve Coast's recent blog post http://opengeodata.org/hitting-reset-on-talk-au Brendan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [talk-au] [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
- Original Message - From: Steve Coast st...@asklater.com To: t...@openstreetmap.org; talk-au@openstreetmap.org Cc: p...@opengeodata.posterous.com Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 8:00 AM Subject: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au [snip] Maybe you have a better option? Yes. Do nothing. Invariably these things settle down after a few days, and any knee jerk reaction is likely to be overkill. If people don't want to subscribe to talk-au they don't have to, so its not something that's likely to me a main concern of the majority of people on the main talk list. Either way, this is an ugly bridge to cross. We need to do something to make it clear this is not how things work in OSM. I think you have just made it clear. We need to make the message heard that this is not normal, this is not the reputation we want to be known by and we won't let it be this way. I think you might be giving undue prominence to the postings on talk-au. At the end of the day our reputation will be based on the quality of our data, the ease of use of contributing, and the ease of use of using our data, rather than a few days worth of postings to a country specific email list. Regards David Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
