Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - 'living_street'
Paul, thank you for being the first to respond to my post with the new subject :) OSM wiki is a great resource and really does clarify a lot. Meanwhile it is work in progress like all wikis and still leaves some space for possible confusion here and there... The reason for my question and proposal is that there is a lot of confusion and discussions between Russian OSM members on what should be tagged as a 'living_street'. I am personally not a supporter of mapping all garbage collection ways :) But residential areas in Russian cities are full of public un-named ways that are an important means for getting to the destination, sometimes via a long and complicated path. And traffic rules applicable on these un-named streets are very much the same as for the named living streets. So it is really important for navigation software to know about them and treat/render them appropriately. Please have a look at this picture: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Image:Residential_area_way_1.jpg . Officially it's an un-named way in a residential area. Does it qualify as an alley? ;) What is the right word for it that you would pick as a native English-speaker? The most discussed questions are: - is having a name really important for an object to be a 'living_street' (say, http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dliving_street explicitly suggests no 'name' tag for a 'living_street' in Belarus) - is being marked with a residential area traffic sign really important for an object to be a 'living_street' (living street traffic rules may be implied on certain ways without any signs) - what may be other important characteristics of a 'living_street as compared to service Any feedback is most appreciated... Regards, Sergey - Original Message - From: Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org To: talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:25 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - 'living_street' USHAKOV, Sergey wrote: [...] I honestly don't see where the confusion is. Alleys occur in all kinds of districts throughout the world, the type of way doesn't change purely on inductive reasoning alone. If it's a back alleyway where you're not expected to do more than find hidden driveways, garbage and delivery access, and maybe off-street parking, it's not a living_street even if all the ways around it are. Wikipedia isn't the best example making a judgement call on this, either; our own wiki is much better in this regard. Our wiki has tagging examples and graphics that seem to make it pretty clear that the living_street tag applies only to ways that are actually living_streets, not all ways in an area. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dservice http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Living_street ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - 'living_street'
The Russian example looks like highway=service to me (ie basically a car-park). The main thing about a living-street is that it's been paved to be much more pedestrian-friendly, and you can't see very far (so everything goes slowly). Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - 'living_street' (USHAKOV, Sergey)
There is a certain degree of cultural bias in the classifications used in OSM - but the freedom to change things. Although 'living_street' has particular usage in western europe, are types of street found in other countries that hardly exist in western europe that I think living street is trying to reproduce. I think those in Russia can decide to use this tag if they have a common type of arrangement of streets that is not common elsewhere. but appears to fit the definition. They should also feel free to use a new name if there really is not a suitable name currently in use. I was surprised to see in china that most residential streets have gates on them to that only residents of the apartments blocks can enter. It could be tempting to classify them as alleys. but they could also fit living street, or just residential, if the user knows that the convention in China is for there to be a gate. In some countries roads in industrial estates are classes as residential, in others, service, and in other unclassified. - it might offend purists, but we do allow cultural flexibility in tagging as well as cultural and technical norms of road design and use. James Message: 8 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:49:26 +0400 From: USHAKOV, Sergey usha...@int.com.ru Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - 'living_street' To: talk@openstreetmap.org Cc: Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org Message-ID: 2f55ecac18e04817b14b237732dfe...@office.chemitech.ru Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8; reply-type=original Paul, thank you for being the first to respond to my post with the new subject :) OSM wiki is a great resource and really does clarify a lot. Meanwhile it is work in progress like all wikis and still leaves some space for possible confusion here and there... The reason for my question and proposal is that there is a lot of confusion and discussions between Russian OSM members on what should be tagged as a 'living_street'. I am personally not a supporter of mapping all garbage collection ways :) But residential areas in Russian cities are full of public un-named ways that are an important means for getting to the destination, sometimes via a long and complicated path. And traffic rules applicable on these un-named streets are very much the same as for the named living streets. So it is really important for navigation software to know about them and treat/render them appropriately. Please have a look at this picture: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Image:Residential_area_way_1.jpg . Officially it's an un-named way in a residential area. Does it qualify as an alley? ;) What is the right word for it that you would pick as a native English-speaker? The most discussed questions are: - is having a name really important for an object to be a 'living_street' (say, http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dliving_street explicitly suggests no 'name' tag for a 'living_street' in Belarus) - is being marked with a residential area traffic sign really important for an object to be a 'living_street' (living street traffic rules may be implied on certain ways without any signs) - what may be other important characteristics of a 'living_street as compared to service Any feedback is most appreciated... Regards, Sergey - Original Message - From: Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org To: talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:25 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - 'living_street' USHAKOV, Sergey wrote: [...] I honestly don't see where the confusion is. Alleys occur in all kinds of districts throughout the world, the type of way doesn't change purely on inductive reasoning alone. If it's a back alleyway where you're not expected to do more than find hidden driveways, garbage and delivery access, and maybe off-street parking, it's not a living_street even if all the ways around it are. Wikipedia isn't the best example making a judgement call on this, either; our own wiki is much better in this regard. Our wiki has tagging examples and graphics that seem to make it pretty clear that the living_street tag applies only to ways that are actually living_streets, not all ways in an area. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dservice http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Living_street ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - 'living_street'
USHAKOV, Sergey schrieb: .. Please have a look at this picture: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Image:Residential_area_way_1.jpg . Officially it's an un-named way in a residential area. Does it qualify as an alley? ;) What is the right word for it that you would pick as a native English-speaker? IMO it's should be tagged as highay=servive Regards Mario ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - 'living_street'
USHAKOV, Sergey wrote: Wikipedia isn't the best example making a judgement call on this, either; our own wiki is much better in this regard. Our wiki has tagging examples and graphics that seem to make it pretty clear that the living_street tag applies only to ways that are actually living_streets, not all ways in an area. I'm not sure whether that would be highway=residential, noname=yes or highway=service, service=parking_aisle. Either one of those would fit more closely than a living_street. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - 'living_street'
USHAKOV, Sergey wrote: Hi again, looks like I have brought a lot of confusion in my previous posts by misuse of the word 'alley'. The latter seems to have too broad range of meanings, and many of them are not what I meant. Just compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alley (not good as a 'living_street') and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alley.JpG (might probably be). Please consider the following proposed definition for a 'living_street': 'living_street' is a: - pubic street or way - in a residential area - intended for mixed vehicle/pedestrian traffic - where vehicles have extra limitations and pedestrians have extra rights as compared to normal streets/ways (details depending on local legislation) - may optionally have a name as a street - may be optionally marked with Residential Area traffic sign where appropriate. Please kindly comment/criticize. I honestly don't see where the confusion is. Alleys occur in all kinds of districts throughout the world, the type of way doesn't change purely on inductive reasoning alone. If it's a back alleyway where you're not expected to do more than find hidden driveways, garbage and delivery access, and maybe off-street parking, it's not a living_street even if all the ways around it are. Wikipedia isn't the best example making a judgement call on this, either; our own wiki is much better in this regard. Our wiki has tagging examples and graphics that seem to make it pretty clear that the living_street tag applies only to ways that are actually living_streets, not all ways in an area. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dservice http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Living_street signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] RFC - 'living_street'
Hi again, looks like I have brought a lot of confusion in my previous posts by misuse of the word 'alley'. The latter seems to have too broad range of meanings, and many of them are not what I meant. Just compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alley (not good as a 'living_street') and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alley.JpG (might probably be). Please consider the following proposed definition for a 'living_street': 'living_street' is a: - pubic street or way - in a residential area - intended for mixed vehicle/pedestrian traffic - where vehicles have extra limitations and pedestrians have extra rights as compared to normal streets/ways (details depending on local legislation) - may optionally have a name as a street - may be optionally marked with Residential Area traffic sign where appropriate. Please kindly comment/criticize. Regards. Sergey - Original Message - From: USHAKOV, Sergey usha...@int.com.ru To: talk@openstreetmap.org Cc: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 4:24 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Is 'name' tag mandatory for a 'living_street'? Hi again and thanks to everyone who responded. Meanwhile I've got a feeling that I was maybe not clear enough in formulating my problem, and Ævar seems to get most close to my idea. Please let me formulate the problem in other words. In Russia traffic regulations make no difference (besides naming terms) betwen named streets marked with Residential Area sign and un-named alleys in residential areas that are not required to be marked with that sign. I guess that at least some of other countries may have similar regulations. With this in mind I would propose to tag as 'living_street any street/alley that allows hybrid (pedestrian/vehicle) traffic with pedestrian priority, and the 'name' tag being optional for these objects. Does this make sense? To Ævar: creation of 'talk-ru' mailing list seems desirable as was already mentioned on the Russian forum as a limitation. BTW, wiki RU namespace is also still pending ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki#multilingual_name_spaces ) despite of significant activity. Can you help in getting it created? Regards, Sergey [...] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
