Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC; C = Cool
At 00:06 08/07/2009, Russ Nelson wrote: On Jul 7, 2009, at 5:53 PM, SteveC wrote: On 7 Jul 2009, at 23:26, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: After the years of iterations don't you think it sucks that your simple easy REST-based model is now made so difficult in 0.6? Mozart had Salieri, I get you guys. Mozart got the better deal. Ah, I get it now. OSM has ... too many nodes. [1] Mike [1] Amadeus - the movie. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC; C = Cool
and it's far too noisy... On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 7:45 AM, Mike Collinson m...@ayeltd.biz wrote: At 00:06 08/07/2009, Russ Nelson wrote: On Jul 7, 2009, at 5:53 PM, SteveC wrote: On 7 Jul 2009, at 23:26, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: After the years of iterations don't you think it sucks that your simple easy REST-based model is now made so difficult in 0.6? Mozart had Salieri, I get you guys. Mozart got the better deal. Ah, I get it now. OSM has ... too many nodes. [1] Mike [1] Amadeus - the movie. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- http://short.ie/savenenaghhospital/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC; C = Cool
Ken Guest wrote: Sent: 08 July 2009 8:50 AM To: Mike Collinson Cc: Talk Openstreetmap Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC; C = Cool and it's far too noisy... Following a storm there is always too much flotsam. Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC; C = Cool
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Stefan de Koninkste...@konink.de wrote: SteveC wrote: inventing nodes, ways, segments (remember them?) You *did not* invent the spaghetti model, please give credit to the original inventor Stan Aronoff, in Geographic information systems: A management perspective (1989). actually, OSM doesn't use the spaghetti model. according to [1,2], Aronoff's spaghetti model treats points as coordinates and lines as lists of coordinates - basically what the OGC's simple features architecture [3] uses - and there's no explicit connectivity. OSM, on the other hand, uses a topological model which comes from a graph theory background, so really we should be crediting Leonhard Euler. cheers, matt 1: http://www.unescap.org/stat/pop-it/pop-guide/gis_ch04.pdf 2: http://eprints.utm.my/6685/1/78062.pdf 3: http://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/sfa ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC; C = Cool
On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, Matt Amos wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Stefan de Koninkste...@konink.de wrote: SteveC wrote: inventing nodes, ways, segments (remember them?) You *did not* invent the spaghetti model, please give credit to the original inventor Stan Aronoff, in Geographic information systems: A management perspective (1989). actually, OSM doesn't use the spaghetti model. according to [1,2], Aronoff's spaghetti model treats points as coordinates and lines as lists of coordinates Isn't this exactly how segments and ways are stored within OSM? An XML subtree referencing to points (thus lower diminensional objects)? While multipolygons are now stored as relation of two polygons? - basically what the OGC's simple features architecture [3] uses - and there's no explicit connectivity. OSM, on the other hand, uses a topological model which comes from a graph theory background, so really we should be crediting Leonhard Euler. Always good to credit him :) Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC; C = Cool
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Stefan de Koninkste...@konink.de wrote: On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, Matt Amos wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Stefan de Koninkste...@konink.de wrote: SteveC wrote: inventing nodes, ways, segments (remember them?) You *did not* invent the spaghetti model, please give credit to the original inventor Stan Aronoff, in Geographic information systems: A management perspective (1989). actually, OSM doesn't use the spaghetti model. according to [1,2], Aronoff's spaghetti model treats points as coordinates and lines as lists of coordinates Isn't this exactly how segments and ways are stored within OSM? An XML subtree referencing to points (thus lower diminensional objects)? from those references, it seems that the spaghetti model includes coordinates directly, rather than referencing a lower dimensional object by ID. apparently it's called the spaghetti model because each way is independent, like spaghetti strands (presumably as opposed to potato waffles or something joined). spaghetti model - coordinates are directly included, topology is implicit. node lat=y lon=x/ waynode lat=y1 lon=x1/node lat=y2 lon=x2/node lat=y3 lon=y3//way graph theory model - coordinates are logically referenced, topology is explicit. node id=1 lat=y lon=x/ way id=1node ref=1/node ref=2/node ref=3//way OSM uses the latter. - basically what the OGC's simple features architecture [3] uses - and there's no explicit connectivity. OSM, on the other hand, uses a topological model which comes from a graph theory background, so really we should be crediting Leonhard Euler. Always good to credit him :) yep. he was a total genius - invented a whole new branch of mathematics without which we wouldn't have amazon/netflix recommendations ;-) cheers, matt ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] SteveC; C = Cool
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 SteveC wrote: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-de/2009-July/049514.html I'm not going to apply on talk-de to tell you this: inventing nodes, ways, segments (remember them?) You *did not* invent the spaghetti model, please give credit to the original inventor Stan Aronoff, in Geographic information systems: A management perspective (1989). After the years of iterations don't you think it sucks that your simple easy REST-based model is now made so difficult in 0.6? Stefan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEAREKAAYFAkpTvZQACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn3CFACfdA210hgoYTcRNUWp+xEBGovp 76sAn1WDFEVDK4B7CvsZxNPvXVXz3j0s =liu2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC; C = Cool
On 7 Jul 2009, at 23:26, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 SteveC wrote: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-de/2009-July/ 049514.html I'm not going to apply on talk-de to tell you this: inventing nodes, ways, segments (remember them?) You *did not* invent the spaghetti model, please give credit to the original inventor Stan Aronoff, in Geographic information systems: A management perspective (1989). Well i never read it and they're kind of trivial. After the years of iterations don't you think it sucks that your simple easy REST-based model is now made so difficult in 0.6? Mozart had Salieri, I get you guys. Stefan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEAREKAAYFAkpTvZQACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn3CFACfdA210hgoYTcRNUWp+xEBGovp 76sAn1WDFEVDK4B7CvsZxNPvXVXz3j0s =liu2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC; C = Cool
On Jul 7, 2009, at 5:53 PM, SteveC wrote: On 7 Jul 2009, at 23:26, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: After the years of iterations don't you think it sucks that your simple easy REST-based model is now made so difficult in 0.6? Mozart had Salieri, I get you guys. Mozart got the better deal. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC; C = Cool
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 SteveC wrote: You *did not* invent the spaghetti model, please give credit to the original inventor Stan Aronoff, in Geographic information systems: A management perspective (1989). Well i never read it and they're kind of trivial. That was the point, at that time it was not trivial; it was an invention to describe m-dimensional objects such as line and polygon only with n-dimensional types such as point and line, where n m. I consider this in the same amount of triviality as REST. 'Why didn't I think of this before?' After the years of iterations don't you think it sucks that your simple easy REST-based model is now made so difficult in 0.6? Mozart had Salieri, I get you guys. Still you live [that was an observation I made without sleeping in front of your door yesterday], and you have influence on the process :) So don't you consider it a waste it got more difficult? Stefan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEAREKAAYFAkpTxusACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn1WjgCgj0iDfie4h+GR40+zV6EOM/ji xUgAn3Y38XsSmQ1cNkp70o5e/l2mK7ym =ifTZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC; C = Cool
On 8 Jul 2009, at 00:06, Stefan de Konink wrote: Still you live [that was an observation I made without sleeping in front of your door yesterday], and you have influence on the process :) So don't you consider it a waste it got more difficult? No Best Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
