Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: - Zitierten Text ausblenden - Greg Troxel wrote: I'd agree that service isn't quite right, if that's the front of th= e buildings. But similarly residential isn't right either (I guess we= all think of that as something with pavements/sidewalks). highway=3Dunclassified for now (and throw a fixme=3D tag explaining th= e situation on for good measure) =20 nah, unclassified seems less correct than residential, as this IS a residential street and just the width is less than what you would expect (but this applies equally to unclassified). My rationale for suggesting that being that there's clearly some confusion on what classification it should be. Well highway=unclassified is actually a specific classification, highway=road is for when we don't know the classification. Don't shoot the messenger. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
Greg Troxel wrote: I'd agree that service isn't quite right, if that's the front of the buildings. But similarly residential isn't right either (I guess we all think of that as something with pavements/sidewalks). highway=unclassified for now (and throw a fixme= tag explaining the situation on for good measure) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
2009/5/29 Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org: - Zitierten Text ausblenden - Greg Troxel wrote: I'd agree that service isn't quite right, if that's the front of the buildings. But similarly residential isn't right either (I guess we all think of that as something with pavements/sidewalks). highway=unclassified for now (and throw a fixme= tag explaining the situation on for good measure) nah, unclassified seems less correct than residential, as this IS a residential street and just the width is less than what you would expect (but this applies equally to unclassified). Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
2009/5/29 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com: I'd agree that service isn't quite right, if that's the front of the buildings. But similarly residential isn't right either (I guess we all think of that as something with pavements/sidewalks). residential doesn't imply sidewalks in my area So is there any objection to highway=pedestrian+bicycle=yes+motorcycle=yes? I think the real issue is that these ways are what one would call public rights of way in the UK, or public ways in the US, and one can legally walk on them for no apparent reason, but they don't allow cars. Isn't that highway=pedestrian exactly? As for cars I think it might be a physical impossibility rather than permitted / not permitted. (But for routing purposes it's just the same.) Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
Isn't that highway=pedestrian exactly? As for cars I think it might be a physical impossibility rather than permitted / not permitted. (But for routing purposes it's just the same.) I suppose it is, except that really it's highway=motorcycle. My real point was that the whole 'highway' concept has cars built into it very deeply, and this is part of the tradeoff between a CS-nerd-pleasing decomposition of the world and convenience for real humans for tagging. pgpTWRTqAXtCp.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
2009/5/29 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com: Isn't that highway=pedestrian exactly? As for cars I think it might be a physical impossibility rather than permitted / not permitted. (But for routing purposes it's just the same.) well, IMHO it's not, as pedestrian are streets not generally allowed to cars, where here it is not a street (according to it's width) and motorcycles are allowed (unlike in pedestrian areas). For the width it is more footway than pedestrian, but IMHO functionally rather highway=residential, width=1.8 Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
I'd have said a pedestrian street was one which (often through conversion) is now primarily for access on foot, and pretty much unsegregated (ie no kerbs, and not much paving differentiation). Access varies (can be bicycles, motorcycles or even some cars - eg Lucca in Italy). It doesn't only apply to the ghastly shopping precincts. You could also use a Living Street, but these usually feature quite a bit of residential car parking, and are fairly open access to car traffic, albeit at walking pace. Richard On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/5/29 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com: Isn't that highway=pedestrian exactly? As for cars I think it might be a physical impossibility rather than permitted / not permitted. (But for routing purposes it's just the same.) well, IMHO it's not, as pedestrian are streets not generally allowed to cars, where here it is not a street (according to it's width) and motorcycles are allowed (unlike in pedestrian areas). For the width it is more footway than pedestrian, but IMHO functionally rather highway=residential, width=1.8 Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
- Zitierten Text ausblenden - Greg Troxel wrote: I'd agree that service isn't quite right, if that's the front of th= e buildings. But similarly residential isn't right either (I guess we= all think of that as something with pavements/sidewalks). highway=3Dunclassified for now (and throw a fixme=3D tag explaining th= e situation on for good measure) =20 nah, unclassified seems less correct than residential, as this IS a residential street and just the width is less than what you would expect (but this applies equally to unclassified). My rationale for suggesting that being that there's clearly some confusion on what classification it should be. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
Am 26.05.2009 12:29, Ben Laenen: On Tuesday 26 May 2009, Jacek Konieczny wrote: On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 09:56:42AM +0200, Ivan Garcia wrote: Hi Peter, which your approach, I believe that the render by osm will be the same than a normal residential street No, I guess, it will have a red dashed transparent line drawn over it, meaning „restricted access”. No more details, though. And I guess it should be rather highway=service than highway=residental. That changes rendering a bit too (it is narrower in Mapnik IIRC). What was that again with the don't tag for the renderer meme? :-) It's clearly a public road so you shouldn't use highway=service here. Ben Make it a highway=residential and additionally tag width=3 Claudius ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
Ben Laenen wrote: It's clearly a public road so you shouldn't use highway=service here. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway says about highway=service: Generally for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite, industrial estate, business park, etc.. This is also commonly used for access to parking and trash collection. Sometimes called an alley, particularly in the US. so highway=service has no meaning about public accessability. this is done using the access tag. highway=service just means this is a road that is not as wide as a highway=residential. frank ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
On Thursday 28 May 2009, you wrote: Ben Laenen wrote: It's clearly a public road so you shouldn't use highway=service here. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway says about highway=service: Generally for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite, industrial estate, business park, etc.. This is also commonly used for access to parking and trash collection. Sometimes called an alley, particularly in the US. so highway=service has no meaning about public accessability. this is done using the access tag. highway=service just means this is a road that is not as wide as a highway=residential. So give me the reference to width in that description. All examples given there talk about a special road built to get you to some place or a building, and if you wouldn't need to go to that place or building you simply wouldn't go there (and most examples would be privately owned roads anyway). The street from the picture that started the discussion showed a road with probably quite a bit of through-traffic (motorcycles, mopeds, cyclists and pedestrians), and that's what I mean with the word public there. It handles traffic that doesn't have to be there. And that's the point where you can't use highway=service anymore. Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
I'd agree that service isn't quite right, if that's the front of the buildings. But similarly residential isn't right either (I guess we all think of that as something with pavements/sidewalks). So is there any objection to highway=pedestrian+bicycle=yes+motorcycle=yes? Richard On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday 28 May 2009, you wrote: Ben Laenen wrote: It's clearly a public road so you shouldn't use highway=service here. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway says about highway=service: Generally for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite, industrial estate, business park, etc.. This is also commonly used for access to parking and trash collection. Sometimes called an alley, particularly in the US. so highway=service has no meaning about public accessability. this is done using the access tag. highway=service just means this is a road that is not as wide as a highway=residential. So give me the reference to width in that description. All examples given there talk about a special road built to get you to some place or a building, and if you wouldn't need to go to that place or building you simply wouldn't go there (and most examples would be privately owned roads anyway). The street from the picture that started the discussion showed a road with probably quite a bit of through-traffic (motorcycles, mopeds, cyclists and pedestrians), and that's what I mean with the word public there. It handles traffic that doesn't have to be there. And that's the point where you can't use highway=service anymore. Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Frank Sautter openstreet...@sautter.com wrote: so highway=service has no meaning about public accessability. this is done using the access tag. highway=service just means this is a road that is not as wide as a highway=residential. No, the definition does not say anything about the width as well. It describes service roads, that's all. You could use width=x or narrow=yes combined with highway=pedestrian. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
I'd agree that service isn't quite right, if that's the front of the buildings. But similarly residential isn't right either (I guess we all think of that as something with pavements/sidewalks). residential doesn't imply sidewalks in my area So is there any objection to highway=pedestrian+bicycle=yes+motorcycle=yes? I think the real issue is that these ways are what one would call public rights of way in the UK, or public ways in the US, and one can legally walk on them for no apparent reason, but they don't allow cars. If that's true, then it probably should be highway=residential with car=no but I think what this is all pointing out is that our road tagging is very car centric. Perhaps we just need a motorized-4-wheels=no somehow. pgpftu3sb0zTT.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
2009/5/28 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com: I'd agree that service isn't quite right, if that's the front of the buildings. But similarly residential isn't right either (I guess we all think of that as something with pavements/sidewalks). residential don't have to have pavements, but the width should be at least for one car. So is there any objection to highway=pedestrian+bicycle=yes+motorcycle=yes? sounds good to me. Even if motorcycles are allowed there, they probably have to move slower than on broader roads. Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
On Tuesday 26 May 2009, Paul Johnson wrote: Ben Laenen wrote: It's clearly a public road so you shouldn't use highway=service here. Alleyways are clearly public roads, and those are highway=service service=alley... But I think there's a big difference in alleys that should be tagged with highway=service and between the alley on the picture: that alley is a small street, where everyone can walk if even you don't need to be there, and houses have their main entrance on that little street. I thought the kind of alleys for highway=service are used for the small alleys that go to back entrances, or where for example garbage is stored outside. The only time you would get there (even if it can be a public road) is when you need to be there. So they may both be called alley, but I think there's a big difference between the two. And the latter is much more in tune with the other usages of highway=service. And if I read the map features page, it seems to suggest alleys of the second kind as well. Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
andrzej zaborowski wrote: 2009/5/26 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com: On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Ivan Garcia capisc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Peter, which your approach, I believe that the render by osm will be the same than a normal residential street, what highway tag can I use to differentiate this allewys in the rendered map? This looks like a: highway=service service=alley access=no foot=yes bicycle=yes motorcycle=yes Which will incidentally make it look different to residential ways in mapnik osmarender. This *is* a residential way though. It's not a service way and it's not what most people would think of when you say alley I think (?). It's residential way with specific access restrictions (and it's a little very_horrible). OK, residential way, same restrictions. My understanding is that access=no can be overridden by specific vehicle types that are allowed. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
Hi Peter, which your approach, I believe that the render by osm will be the same than a normal residential street, what highway tag can I use to differentiate this allewys in the rendered map? Best Regards. On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 4:34 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Ivan Garcia wrote: Hi, could you tell me by looking at this picture [1] how to tag this in OSM ? http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8Y0T3EnBVPw/SJcJ13KnOII/BCg/ot4X2My6CvA/s400/vietnam%2Balley.jpg It's an alley where only people/motorbikes can go. access=no foot=yes bicycle=yes (I assume bicycles are allowed) motorcycle=yes ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
On Tuesday 26 May 2009, Jacek Konieczny wrote: On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 09:56:42AM +0200, Ivan Garcia wrote: Hi Peter, which your approach, I believe that the render by osm will be the same than a normal residential street No, I guess, it will have a red dashed transparent line drawn over it, meaning „restricted access”. No more details, though. And I guess it should be rather highway=service than highway=residental. That changes rendering a bit too (it is narrower in Mapnik IIRC). What was that again with the don't tag for the renderer meme? :-) It's clearly a public road so you shouldn't use highway=service here. Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
And I guess it should be rather highway=service than highway=residental. That changes rendering a bit too (it is narrower in Mapnik IIRC). What was that again with the don't tag for the renderer meme? :-) It's clearly a public road so you shouldn't use highway=service here. The description page for highway=service [1] states: This is also commonly used for access to parking, driveways, and alleys. So this is within the intended use of highway=service, especially in combination with service=alley [2]. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=service [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:service -- Neu: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate + Telefonanschluss für nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
2009/5/26 Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org: Ivan Garcia wrote: Hi, could you tell me by looking at this picture [1] how to tag this in OSM ? http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8Y0T3EnBVPw/SJcJ13KnOII/BCg/ot4X2My6CvA/s400/vietnam%2Balley.jpg It's an alley where only people/motorbikes can go. access=no foot=yes bicycle=yes (I assume bicycles are allowed) motorcycle=yes I normally use highway=pedestrian for this kind of streets in city centres (especially mediterranean), here I'd add motorcycle=yes but definitely wouldn't use access=no. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
2009/5/26 andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com: I normally use highway=pedestrian for this kind of streets in city centres (especially mediterranean), here I'd add motorcycle=yes but definitely wouldn't use access=no. I would use highway=footway, as pedestrian I see for ways that are broad like streets. It depends also on the context how to tag this, as this not clear from just seeing the picture (is there a bollard at the beginning, is it possible to use it to shortcut or does it serve just to access the adjacent houses. Are the motorbikes legally there or are they abusive, is the alley private or public, etc.) Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Ivan Garcia capisc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Peter, which your approach, I believe that the render by osm will be the same than a normal residential street, what highway tag can I use to differentiate this allewys in the rendered map? This looks like a: highway=service service=alley access=no foot=yes bicycle=yes motorcycle=yes Which will incidentally make it look different to residential ways in mapnik osmarender. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
Ben Laenen wrote: On Tuesday 26 May 2009, Jacek Konieczny wrote: On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 09:56:42AM +0200, Ivan Garcia wrote: Hi Peter, which your approach, I believe that the render by osm will be the same than a normal residential street No, I guess, it will have a red dashed transparent line drawn over it, meaning „restricted access”. No more details, though. And I guess it should be rather highway=service than highway=residental. That changes rendering a bit too (it is narrower in Mapnik IIRC). What was that again with the don't tag for the renderer meme? :-) It's clearly a public road so you shouldn't use highway=service here. Alleyways are clearly public roads, and those are highway=service service=alley... signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: It's clearly a public road so you shouldn't use highway=service here. Alleyways are clearly public roads, and those are highway=service service=alley... Why you don't create a highway=alley and just keep highway=service for service roads ? Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
2009/5/26 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com: On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Ivan Garcia capisc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Peter, which your approach, I believe that the render by osm will be the same than a normal residential street, what highway tag can I use to differentiate this allewys in the rendered map? This looks like a: highway=service service=alley access=no foot=yes bicycle=yes motorcycle=yes Which will incidentally make it look different to residential ways in mapnik osmarender. This *is* a residential way though. It's not a service way and it's not what most people would think of when you say alley I think (?). It's residential way with specific access restrictions (and it's a little very_horrible). Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
andrzej zaborowski wrote: 2009/5/26 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com: On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Ivan Garcia capisc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Peter, which your approach, I believe that the render by osm will be the same than a normal residential street, what highway tag can I use to differentiate this allewys in the rendered map? This looks like a: highway=service service=alley access=no foot=yes bicycle=yes motorcycle=yes Which will incidentally make it look different to residential ways in mapnik osmarender. This *is* a residential way though. It's not a service way and it's not what most people would think of when you say alley I think (?). It's residential way with specific access restrictions (and it's a little very_horrible). There's several streets in Salem that are clearly alleyways, yet have residental frontages on them. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
Ivan Garcia wrote: Hi, could you tell me by looking at this picture [1] how to tag this in OSM ? http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8Y0T3EnBVPw/SJcJ13KnOII/BCg/ot4X2My6CvA/s400/vietnam%2Balley.jpg It's an alley where only people/motorbikes can go. access=no foot=yes bicycle=yes (I assume bicycles are allowed) motorcycle=yes signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
