Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
Stephen Gower wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 09:19:02PM +0200, Igor Brejc wrote: I've started playing around using DirectX in combination with SRTM data to draw 3D relief OSM maps. The plan is to add this feature to Kosmos. Please visit http://igorbrejc.net/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-in-3d if you want to see some initial results. Wow - that's amazing. One feature request from a hilly, but not mountainous part of the world - can you include an option to exaggerate the relief? On the wall at work is a physical relief map of Oxford in plastic made by the Ordnance Survey in the 1970s. I recall from the small print that the scale of the vertical axis is three times that of the horizontal plane - and that gives a map where the hills look like they feel as I cycle up them! s Yes, that's one of the "obligatory" features of 3D scenery renderers. What I will probably do is to first publish a prototype standalone application for 3D OSM maps and include some kind of XML configuration where you'll be able to specify relief exaggeration (among other things). Then I'll merge this into the main Kosmos.GUI and provide a GUI for setting these things. I'll also invest some time in trying out Axiom engine mentioned before (or some other library) to make 3D rendering more portable, but I cannot promise more than that. Igor -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
Very nice that looks really promissing. But a few days ago I hade an idea to give the user an even more realistic experience. I would say it is a 3D-OSM-renderer. My idea was that: Tags that are included should be interpreted as 3D objects. For example if you have a street with highway = 70 then the renderer puts a 70 km/h roadsign besides the street. Same can be used for trafficlights, bridges or tunnels. Railways with electricity should be rendered with with electric poles (but that would require a tag like this and I haven't found one) Information about buildings can be included. Woods can be rendered with trees. The options are endless. Even though this wouldn't look exactly like the real thing but it would give you a looks like real experience. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
SteveC wrote: On 18 Jul 2008, at 08:13, Igor Brejc wrote: elvin ibbotson wrote: Very nice but it needs DirectX. I cut my map programming teeth on a viewer for British OS maps which uses Java 3D (http://britain.poco.org.uk/desktop.html). I can’t share it because of copyright restrictions on the maps, but the principle would apply to any map source including OSM. Why not use Java instead of Microsoft stuff then it would run on anything. There’s an awful lot of us using Linux or Macs - anything but Windows!. I like the idea of Kosmos but - MS .net!! elvin Guys, I understand what you're saying and in general I agree, it's better to use an open and portable technology than a closed-source like MS. But I live in a real world, my programming skills are in C# and MS.NET (mostly because I also I too live in a real world, but don't go down to their level by patronising us with phrases like that. Just ignore them and keep hacking. Best Steve I meant no patronizing, I'm sorry if you felt that way... Igor -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
On Jul 18, 2008, at 09:27, elvin ibbotson wrote: Very nice but it needs DirectX. I cut my map programming teeth on a viewer for British OS maps which uses Java 3D (http://britain.poco.org.uk/desktop.html ). I can’t share it because of copyright restrictions on the maps, but the principle would apply to any map source including OSM. Why not use Java instead of Microsoft stuff then it would run on anything. There’s an awful lot of us using Linux or Macs - anything but Windows!. I like the idea of Kosmos but - MS .net!! If you had tried, you'd know that Kosmos does in fact run on Linux with Mono. This one doesn't since there's no DirectX support in Mono, but I'm sure it'd be possible to port it to something like http://axiomengine.sourceforge.net/ . In my opinion, a Windows only project with source available is worth a lot more than some closed Java thing. On that note, how can the license on the maps keep you from releasing the source code to your viewer? Cheers Robert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 08:27:56AM +0100, elvin ibbotson wrote: Why not use Java instead of Microsoft stuff then it would run on anything. Java doesn’t really run on anything, and we’re only just getting close to a full working free software implementation. For 3D, some framework that sits on OpenGL would be even better (or use OpenGL directly). Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
On 18 Jul 2008, at 09:35, Robert Vollmert wrote: On Jul 18, 2008, at 09:27, elvin ibbotson wrote: Very nice but it needs DirectX. I cut my map programming teeth on a viewer for British OS maps which uses Java 3D (http:// britain.poco.org.uk/desktop.html). I can’t share it because of copyright restrictions on the maps, but the principle would apply to any map source including OSM. Why not use Java instead of Microsoft stuff then it would run on anything. There’s an awful lot of us using Linux or Macs - anything but Windows!. I like the idea of Kosmos but - MS .net!! If you had tried, you'd know that Kosmos does in fact run on Linux with Mono. This one doesn't since there's no DirectX support in Mono, but I'm sure it'd be possible to port it to something like http://axiomengine.sourceforge.net/ . I'm not a Linux hacker. I use a Mac and much prefer the 'install it and it works' approach to either the arcane command-line stuff needed to make things like this work with Linux or the constant and annoying pop-ups in Windows. Java (especially on a Mac) just works. In my opinion, a Windows only project with source available is worth a lot more than some closed Java thing. Fair enough. That's your opinion. But why does 'some Java thing' have to be 'closed'. Java has been open and free since it's inception and there is nothing to stop me releasing the source of my Java apps. On that note, how can the license on the maps keep you from releasing the source code to your viewer? The problem is not with the code. It's the Ordnance Survey maps it views. This topic has, though made me think about revisiting my old 'Britain' app and adapting it to OSM. I wonder if there would be any interest in a Java OSM viewer with 3D, the ability to overlay user layers and create routes? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
On Jul 18, 2008, at 10:25 , Simon Ward wrote: On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 08:27:56AM +0100, elvin ibbotson wrote: Why not use Java instead of Microsoft stuff then it would run on anything. Java doesn’t really run on anything, Well, this is just nonsense :-) NASA World Wind for Java is made in Java, runs on everything (probably soon even on mobile phones), it's OpenGL based and fast, and takes advantage of hardware acceleration. I think that people should be able to defend their own legitimate technology choices without the need of saying nonsense about other technologies. :-) -- Fabrizio Giudici, Ph.D. - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/blog [EMAIL PROTECTED] - mobile: +39 348.150.6941 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
From: Simon Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 18 July 2008 09:25:55 BDT To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 08:27:56AM +0100, elvin ibbotson wrote: Why not use Java instead of Microsoft stuff then it would run on anything. Java doesn’t really run on anything, and we’re only just getting close to a full working free software implementation. Java runs on Windows, Mac, Linux and Solaris and has been full, free and working for years. For 3D, some framework that sits on OpenGL would be even better (or use OpenGL directly). Java 3D will use OpenGL or DirectX. That's one way it runs on anything ;-) Please note: I am an unpaid Java evangelist and have no connection with Sun. elvin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] elvin ibbotson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Simon Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 08:27:56AM +0100, elvin ibbotson wrote: Why not use Java instead of Microsoft stuff then it would run on anything. Java doesn’t really run on anything, and we’re only just getting close to a full working free software implementation. Java runs on Windows, Mac, Linux and Solaris and has been full, free and working for years. You're talking free as in beer. Simon was talking free as in freedom. Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
At least I'm interested in a Java framework to render maps respective layers from OSM data. Then I dream of an easy configuration of render rules. Better: The rules can be extracted out of the features pages of the wiki.openstreetmap.org! Then any feature change of the community would change the rendering.. On 18 Jul 2008, at 09:35, Robert Vollmert wrote: This topic has, though made me think about revisiting my old 'Britain' app and adapting it to OSM. I wonder if there would be any interest in a Java OSM viewer with 3D, the ability to overlay user layers and create routes? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
Hi, You're talking free as in beer. Simon was talking free as in freedom. I hope he'll at least be happy once he has a free as in freedom software implementation. If he chose to go on to say you cannot really use Java because there's no reasonably performing free as in freedom processor design to run it on then we'd really be in trouble. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:21:31AM +0100, Tom Hughes wrote: Java runs on Windows, Mac, Linux and Solaris and has been full, free and working for years. You're talking free as in beer. Simon was talking free as in freedom. Correct. If I hadn’t managed to get JOSM working on a free (as in freedom) implementation of Java, I probably wouldn’t have been contributing to OSM this year. Next up, Potlatch running in Gnash (getting closer all of the time). Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 11:57:29AM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: You're talking free as in beer. Simon was talking free as in freedom. I hope he'll at least be happy once he has a free as in freedom software implementation. Oh, I’ll never be happy :) Seriously, as much as I’d love everything to be free as in freedom, my aim is for free software. Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 11:29:40AM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're talking free as in beer. Simon was talking free as in freedom. I suppose that being Java open sourced under GPL is free in both meanings, right? There’s nothing in the GPL (or in the four freedoms that it’s based around) to say you can’t sell free software. However, without anything to add value, such as a support service, or printed manuals, the cost effectively tends towards zero as others can just release the same software for lower or zero cost. Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
Stefan Zeller wrote: Hi Igor, that looks really nice :-). From what do you get the relief information? From contour lines? I just ask because on Image4 there is a closed contour line directly above the word Kamnica, which lays on a slope. greetings, Stefku Thanks. All the elevation data is from SRTM, but the 3D relief is a little bit offset to the south. My cannibalizing took only a few hours of work and I haven't had time to finish those details. It will be fixed in the official release though. Igor -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
elvin ibbotson wrote: Very nice but it needs DirectX. I cut my map programming teeth on a viewer for British OS maps which uses Java 3D (http://britain.poco.org.uk/desktop.html). I can’t share it because of copyright restrictions on the maps, but the principle would apply to any map source including OSM. Why not use Java instead of Microsoft stuff then it would run on anything. There’s an awful lot of us using Linux or Macs - anything but Windows!. I like the idea of Kosmos but - MS .net!! elvin Guys, I understand what you're saying and in general I agree, it's better to use an open and portable technology than a closed-source like MS. But I live in a real world, my programming skills are in C# and MS.NET (mostly because I also use it in professional life, for which I'm only partly to blame). If I had decided 10 months ago that I'll start implementing Kosmos in Java (not to mention migrating from Windows to Linux), then Kosmos would now still be just a simple command-line tool (or maybe I would have given up, who knows). It's the experience in a technology that allows me to concentrate on a concrete problem I'm solving and not on the nitty-gritties of a particular technology. While I believe in portable apps, I find portable GUI-s to be quite lacking regarding the user experience (at least on Windows, I don't know about other OS's). There are exceptions, of course. Anyway, Kosmos is open-source (I'll release the new source with the upcoming 2.1 release) and has quite a liberal license so if anyone's interested and has the time and will, he can "cannibalize" the code and make something new and portable. Igor -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
Ian Dees wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Igor Brejc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I've started playing around using DirectX in combination with SRTM data to draw 3D relief OSM maps. The plan is to add this feature to Kosmos. Please visit http://igorbrejc.net/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-in-3d if you want to see some initial results. It looks like you're rendering with Kosmos and then applying that image as a texture on the relief. Do you have plans to render the data as polygons and vertices in 3D space rather than as texture? Yes, this is the plan for the future. As I said in the blog, this is just a quick and dirty prototype. Igor -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
Igor Brejc schrieb: Hi, I've started playing around using DirectX in combination with SRTM data to draw 3D relief OSM maps. The plan is to add this feature to Kosmos. Please visit http://igorbrejc.net/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-in-3d if you want to see some initial results. Yap, this indeed looks nice. I did something similar very long time ago (was at API 0.4 times) and it really doesn't look that good, I just thought I share this with you: http://kripton.kripserver.net/software/v.in.osm/nviz_visual_osm_height.png The picture shows Aschaffenburg, Germany. Main Image is landsat, green lines are OSM-data (lines), blue lines are OSM-data (areas). Height data is taken from SRTM. The image is created using the nviz-module from GRASS GIS in linux. Jannis smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
Alex S. wrote: Igor Brejc wrote: I've started playing around using DirectX in combination with SRTM data to draw 3D relief OSM maps. The plan is to add this feature to Kosmos. I'd suggest writing it with OpenGL instead of DirectX, as it's cross-platform. If I find a decent .NET library for OpenGL, then maybe this will be done. But as I wrote in my previous mail, portability is not the most important concern for me - in the past I tried to make Kosmos 1.x run in Mono on Linux and it kind-of worked, but there were a lot of issues with this, so basically I gave up. Kosmos 2.x is even more difficult in this regard - it uses certain 3rd party libraries which are Mono-unfriendly. The additional problem is speed - I can make this thing run fast on Windows by optimizing the code. For an interactive mapping tool this is essential - slow map drawing just kills the purpose of the app. But if the portability is the main issue, then the speed looses out (unless large chunks of code are written separately for each OS). Igor -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
Hi, Correct. If I hadn’t managed to get JOSM working on a free (as in freedom) implementation of Java, I probably wouldn’t have been contributing to OSM this year. Well even then JOSM is still GPL, which has so many strings attached that nobody outside the world of software development would call that free ;-) Anyone sharing Simon's disposition though is encouraged to use Merkaartor which, as far as I know, just needs a C compiler and an open source Qt library. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
Jannis, I think the "nicety" of screenshots I published are more the result of a better graphics card than my programming skills :). I'm sure you can come up with even better stuff using DirectX 10 or something similar :) Anyway, I too worked on a similar thing 2-3 years ago but then I gave up because I didn't have anything more than the relief and a bitmap to show - this was before I got involved with the OSM project. Having a freely available vector map data changes everything... Igor Jannis Achstetter wrote: Igor Brejc schrieb: Hi, I've started playing around using DirectX in combination with SRTM data to draw 3D relief OSM maps. The plan is to add this feature to Kosmos. Please visit http://igorbrejc.net/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-in-3d if you want to see some initial results. Yap, this indeed looks nice. I did something similar very long time ago (was at API 0.4 times) and it really doesn't look that good, I just thought I share this with you: http://kripton.kripserver.net/software/v.in.osm/nviz_visual_osm_height.png The picture shows Aschaffenburg, Germany. Main Image is landsat, green lines are OSM-data (lines), blue lines are OSM-data (areas). Height data is taken from SRTM. The image is created using the nviz-module from GRASS GIS in linux. Jannis ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
Jannis, I think the "nicety" of screenshots I published are more the result of a better graphics card than my programming skills :). I'm sure you can come up with even better stuff using DirectX 10 or something similar Anyway, I too worked on a similar thing 2-3 years ago but then I gave up because I didn't have anything more than the relief and a bitmap to show - this was before I got involved with the OSM project. Having a freely available vector map data changes everything... Igor Jannis Achstetter wrote: Igor Brejc schrieb: Hi, I've started playing around using DirectX in combination with SRTM data to draw 3D relief OSM maps. The plan is to add this feature to Kosmos. Please visit http://igorbrejc.net/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-in-3d if you want to see some initial results. Yap, this indeed looks nice. I did something similar very long time ago (was at API 0.4 times) and it really doesn't look that good, I just thought I share this with you: http://kripton.kripserver.net/software/v.in.osm/nviz_visual_osm_height.png The picture shows Aschaffenburg, Germany. Main Image is landsat, green lines are OSM-data (lines), blue lines are OSM-data (areas). Height data is taken from SRTM. The image is created using the nviz-module from GRASS GIS in linux. Jannis ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 09:19:02PM +0200, Igor Brejc wrote: I've started playing around using DirectX in combination with SRTM data to draw 3D relief OSM maps. The plan is to add this feature to Kosmos. Please visit http://igorbrejc.net/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-in-3d if you want to see some initial results. Wow - that's amazing. One feature request from a hilly, but not mountainous part of the world - can you include an option to exaggerate the relief? On the wall at work is a physical relief map of Oxford in plastic made by the Ordnance Survey in the 1970s. I recall from the small print that the scale of the vertical axis is three times that of the horizontal plane - and that gives a map where the hills look like they feel as I cycle up them! s ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
On 18 Jul 2008, at 08:13, Igor Brejc wrote: elvin ibbotson wrote: Very nice but it needs DirectX. I cut my map programming teeth on a viewer for British OS maps which uses Java 3D (http://britain.poco.org.uk/desktop.html ). I can’t share it because of copyright restrictions on the maps, but the principle would apply to any map source including OSM. Why not use Java instead of Microsoft stuff then it would run on anything. There’s an awful lot of us using Linux or Macs - anything but Windows!. I like the idea of Kosmos but - MS .net!! elvin Guys, I understand what you're saying and in general I agree, it's better to use an open and portable technology than a closed-source like MS. But I live in a real world, my programming skills are in C# and MS.NET (mostly because I also I too live in a real world, but don't go down to their level by patronising us with phrases like that. Just ignore them and keep hacking. Best Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps in 3D
2008/7/18 Igor Brejc [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, I've started playing around using DirectX in combination with SRTM data to draw 3D relief OSM maps. The plan is to add this feature to Kosmos. Please visit http://igorbrejc.net/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-in-3d if you want to see some initial results. That looks awesome :) d ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
