Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Peter Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Major non-interstate highways that have traffic light free multi-level junctions etc should be tagged as 'trunk' and possibly also be rendered orange but with less grand route numbers to differentiate them from interstate routes. This statement really bothers me. First, we must make every effort to keep the data separate from the rendering. Consider a section of Interstate Highway that structurally resembles a UK motorway. This section of road may also be part of a state highway. It's not uncommon for a section of road to have both a state highway sign and an Interstate sign. In some very barren areas an Interstate may have standard intersections without ramps. As in your example above a road that is not an Interstate may have multiple levels and ramps. Whatever scheme we agree on must keep the road's structure separate from legal classifications. I checked and the wiki still says that the highway tag should be used to indicate what the road looks like. My reasoning can be found on the talk page. Whether a road is an Interstate, state highway, county road, etc. should be indicated in another data field. I haven't been following all the conversations lately, but I remember an Australian was tagging a gravel road as a motorway because it was the main road between two rural cities and he wanted it prominently rendered. Perhaps in this case some kind of importance tag should be used. I think free tagging is great, but we should not allow multiple definitions for each tag. A tag should not indicate both it's legal status and it's structure, although one might imply the other under certain circumstances. -- http://bowlad.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
Jeffrey Martin wrote: I think free tagging is great, but we should not allow multiple definitions for each tag. A tag should not indicate both it's legal status and it's structure, although one might imply the other under certain circumstances. Well, that's an unfortunate fact of the 'highway' tag. It was written to indicate both legal status and physical structure. -Alex Mauer hawke -- Bad - You get pulled over for doing 90 in a school zone and you're drunk off your ass again at three in the afternoon. Worse - The cop is drunk too, and he's a mean drunk. FUCK! - A mean drunk that's actually a swarm of semi-sentient flesh-eating beetles. OpenPGP key id: 51192FF2 @ subkeys.pgp.net signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
Thanks for that Jeffrey. I agree entirely that rendering should follow tagging and not lead tagging, my main concern at the moment is that UK rendering (blue for motorway and orange for secondary) is encouraging inappropriate tagging. I think we agree that one should clarify first how to tag what is on the ground and then decide on how to render the data. Based in the UK I am reliant on tiger and aerial photography to inform my choice of tagging Am I right in thinking that the synthesis of this discussion is being added to this wiki page? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Highway_tag_usage Fyi I have been doing a lot of work on the San Francisco bay area (Golden Gate down to Foster City) over the past week or so and I am having been working on the road classes tags today, hence my question. I have been: Lifting the road class of roads tagged as secondary but which have flyovers and divided carriageways etc and making them trunk (but motorway might be more appropriate) Lifting 'braded roads' with two carriageways in tiger data from residential to primary. Lifting some other roads from residential to secondary where they are clearly significant feeder roads for an area. Rationalising link roads to get them to match the class of road they are feeding (there were lots of motorway_link roads feeding secondary for example). My first pass looked pretty ugly. I am currently waiting for osmarender to render my latest adjustment to the primary network in the area and would then be grateful for feedback as to whether I am on the right lines (but do wait until tomorrow when the rendering should have finished). I have also being doing a lot of 'de-duplicating' of roads pre/post tiger. In general I have kept pre-tiger freeways and kept tiger for other roads. I have also given a pass over most of the freeway network in the bay area in the past week and have added the second carriageways where required and cleaned up the geometry and sorted out some of the junctions. Regards, Peter _ From: Jeffrey Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 20 April 2008 15:42 To: Peter Miller Cc: Talk Openstreetmap; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Peter Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Major non-interstate highways that have traffic light free multi-level junctions etc should be tagged as 'trunk' and possibly also be rendered orange but with less grand route numbers to differentiate them from interstate routes. This statement really bothers me. First, we must make every effort to keep the data separate from the rendering. Consider a section of Interstate Highway that structurally resembles a UK motorway. This section of road may also be part of a state highway. It's not uncommon for a section of road to have both a state highway sign and an Interstate sign. In some very barren areas an Interstate may have standard intersections without ramps. As in your example above a road that is not an Interstate may have multiple levels and ramps. Whatever scheme we agree on must keep the road's structure separate from legal classifications. I checked and the wiki still says that the highway tag should be used to indicate what the road looks like. My reasoning can be found on the talk page. Whether a road is an Interstate, state highway, county road, etc. should be indicated in another data field. I haven't been following all the conversations lately, but I remember an Australian was tagging a gravel road as a motorway because it was the main road between two rural cities and he wanted it prominently rendered. Perhaps in this case some kind of importance tag should be used. I think free tagging is great, but we should not allow multiple definitions for each tag. A tag should not indicate both it's legal status and it's structure, although one might imply the other under certain circumstances. -- http://bowlad.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jo wrote: | Robert (Jamie) Munro schreef: | | When I look at the USA, I want interstates to be blue. When an American | looks at the UK, they want to see motorways to be a colour other than | blue, because then they will understand instinctively what kind of road | it is. This should be one of the major benefits of OSM over other maps. | | When someone from a USA IP address opens the map, they should see the | USA style tiles by default, but have the UK tiles on the layer switcher. | | That would indeed make a lot of sense. Otherwise you will get odd | results of roads changing style near the borders. So a separate tile | server for the US is called for. Probably one for France as well with | styles that look like Michelin's maps and maybe one for Germany (Are | Germans used to Kummerley und Frey?) Hopefully we won't need a separate tileserver for each rendering style - 1 server should be able to render more than one style at a time at different URLs. I am led to believe that mod_tile cannot currently render more than one style of tiles on a single apache installation - I don't know what tilecache is capable of. It would be more efficient to spread the load across multiple servers by odd/even tile numbers, or possibly by odd/even zoom levels. It is likely that a USA tileserver will be busy at different times from a UK or Japan tile server, and it would be useful if they could share the rendering loads between each at their own peak times. Robert (Jamie) Munro -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFICejwz+aYVHdncI0RAvVeAKC1NMcAwG4DMJdvqL9LBs6VY73WNQCg5lmp WdydYFJvvcW6wdCwMUY2+r0= =NUEB -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
On 18/04/2008, Jon Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From a purely functional perspective this approach seems to work. The screenshot below shows what happens if you ask for the motorways in Ireland to be rendered in purple: http://tile.openstreetmap.org/direct/country-mways-example.png The motorways in England and Northern Ireland still render in the default blue. So does the most northerly section of the M1 motorway in the Republic of Ireland, a good 20km away from where that road actually crosses the border. So while that's a nifty illustration, it shows that the boundary information will need to get a lot better before we can rely on it in all cases. Dermot ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
On Sat, 2008-04-19 at 19:57 +0100, Dermot McNally wrote: On 18/04/2008, Jon Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From a purely functional perspective this approach seems to work. The screenshot below shows what happens if you ask for the motorways in Ireland to be rendered in purple: http://tile.openstreetmap.org/direct/country-mways-example.png The motorways in England and Northern Ireland still render in the default blue. So does the most northerly section of the M1 motorway in the Republic of Ireland, a good 20km away from where that road actually crosses the border. So while that's a nifty illustration, it shows that the boundary information will need to get a lot better before we can rely on it in all cases. Dermot That could have been due to a couple of things:- - not using the correct projection on the boundary polygons I imported - not trying to do anything to account for ways which crossed over a border. PostGIS can generate clipped geometries while doing the processing but I did not try this [1]. - or errors in the the boundary (from vmap0). Thanks for pointing it out anyway. Jon [1] http://postgis.refractions.net/docs/ch04.html#id2677901 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
On 19/04/2008, Jon Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - not trying to do anything to account for ways which crossed over a border. PostGIS can generate clipped geometries while doing the processing but I did not try this [1]. That's not the cause anyway - the motorway ends, with a break in ways, about 10km before the crossing. - or errors in the the boundary (from vmap0). I'd bet good money on this one. I'm still trying to find a good source for the border data. Dermot ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Peter Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The state roads are currently tagged on OSM variously with trunk (green) primary (red) and secondary (orange). Some pretty major roads a tagged with secondary (actually a very lowly road class in the UK below motorway, trunk and primary) and I suspect that this is because it renders with the correct colour. There is no 'secondary_link' tag for exit and entrance ramps because secondary roads are too minor to have such things so highways rendered as secondary are using 'secondary' tags for exist and entrance ramps as well. There is no such thing as a tag that does not exist in OSM as we have freeform tagging. In addition to which mapnik at least does render things marked as secondary_link, so it seems to do a pretty good impression of something that exists to me. If we can agree on the rendering rules and get both Mapnik and osmarender sorted out for the USA then people will be incentivised to tag appropriately. The moto 'render and they will come' probably applies here as elsewhere. Agreeing on the rules or colour schemes is not the problem. The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an efficient way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look like should somebody want to write it. See the ongoing discussion about the difficulty of the problem of determining efficiently what country something lies in for what I'm talking about. Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
If we can agree on the rendering rules and get both Mapnik and osmarender sorted out for the USA sorted out - they both work fine. Even if we had a production-ready mechanism for country-specific rendering, it would still be a matter of opinion, or more accurately, a matter of cartographic style, as to whether we want to render the freeways in orange. After all, it's just a map, and conventions are only conventions, not hard and fast rules. Not saying that we shouldn't, just that your phrasing is quite aggressive for what is a matter of taste. I wouldn't want someone to say that my choice of colours for the cycle map contours needs sorting out (even if that might well be true!). Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
On Friday 18 April 2008, Tom Hughes wrote: If we can agree on the rendering rules and get both Mapnik and osmarender sorted out for the USA then people will be incentivised to tag appropriately. The moto 'render and they will come' probably applies here as elsewhere. Agreeing on the rules or colour schemes is not the problem. Who decides what colours are used on the main maps? I.e. who actually decided that motorways should be blue, and trunks should be green, how railways are rendered etc.? Say I'd like to see railways rendered differently in the [EMAIL PROTECTED] maps, where should I ask? Is there some formal process like for accepting new tags where general agreement is formed? Greetings Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Tom Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an efficient way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look like should somebody want to write it. Shouldn't this be as easy as adding a tag indicating country and altering the stylesheet to say highway=motorway country=us = color=yellow, highway=motorway country=uk = color=blue? Cheers, Adam ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
Hi, Shouldn't this be as easy as adding a tag indicating country and altering the stylesheet to say highway=motorway country=us = color=yellow, highway=motorway country=uk = color=blue? Complete with the ability to have US motorways in the UK, yay! Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
Hi, Who decides what colours are used on the main maps? I.e. who actually decided that motorways should be blue, and trunks should be green, how railways are rendered etc.? Say I'd like to see railways rendered differently in the [EMAIL PROTECTED] maps, where should I ask? Is there some formal process like for accepting new tags where general agreement is formed? The [EMAIL PROTECTED] maps are computed based on stylesheets that are in SVN, so anybody can change them. It usually takes a while until a change is visible everywhere because (1) not all tiles are rendered anew after a style change, and (2) not all renderers update their styles every day. We don't have a formal process to decide nor are there written rules. The unwritten rules are probably roughly: 1. Don't break the styles 2. If you add something that affects only a small number of tiles, say because you started to tag historic battle sites and want a little marker there at the highest zoom level, just do it - if people are unhappy, they can still change it and re-render 3. If you want to change something big, then discuss it on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list. It's no use pushing through a change that would lead to half of the renderers simply refusing to update ;-) 4. Big changes like a different colour for highways are a bit difficult since very many tiles have to be rendered, and the map will be a patchwork of old and new tiles for quite a while. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Shouldn't this be as easy as adding a tag indicating country and altering the stylesheet to say highway=motorway country=us = color=yellow, highway=motorway country=uk = color=blue? Complete with the ability to have US motorways in the UK, yay! Authentication of the data is a different problem than rendering it. Note that this is different than tagging for a renderer since the data country=foo is real and not a hint. It was also just an example, not necessarily an actual tagging suggestion. The example was presented because there was an assertion that it was a technological problem. Adam ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Adam Schreiber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Tom Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an efficient way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look like should somebody want to write it. Shouldn't this be as easy as adding a tag indicating country and altering the stylesheet to say highway=motorway country=us = color=yellow, highway=motorway country=uk = color=blue? Yes, obviously we could make everybody go round and tag the umpty million objects in the database with a country code. That is a pretty daft solution though when it should be possible to automate it. Of course as soon as we'd done that people would start asking for the shield shapes to change by state so we'd have to go round and add state tags and so on... Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ben Laenen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 18 April 2008, Tom Hughes wrote: If we can agree on the rendering rules and get both Mapnik and osmarender sorted out for the USA then people will be incentivised to tag appropriately. The moto 'render and they will come' probably applies here as elsewhere. Agreeing on the rules or colour schemes is not the problem. Who decides what colours are used on the main maps? I.e. who actually decided that motorways should be blue, and trunks should be green, how railways are rendered etc.? The people who are sufficiently interested to get involved with making changes to the stylesheets. Say I'd like to see railways rendered differently in the [EMAIL PROTECTED] maps, where should I ask? Is there some formal process like for accepting new tags where general agreement is formed? The question of what tags are used is orthogonal to how things are rendered - not every rendering will show every object to start with. Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
I hope I didn't come across as aggressive, but I did want to point out some really weird inconsistencies that do need to be resolved and wanted to encourage debate. In the UK a secondary roads is a minor road, in San Francisco this http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=slat=37.668663lon=-122.485307zoom=18 junction (a multilevel road with multiple flyovers) is classed as secondary whereas this http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=slat=37.428439lon=-121.909597zoom=19 one (an urban road with traffic signal controlled junctions) is classed as primary. I suspect that fact reason that the first is classed as secondary is because the mapper wanted an orange road and that it should really be a 'trunk' road. I really don't mind what the rendered colours are, that is for local discussion and there may even be multiple versions with different styles as far as I am concernedm, but currently the rendering is uk-centric and that seems inappropriate for the USA and seems to be causing distortions with tagging. I do think that the hierarchy of road classes needs to be respected across OSM (where a trunk road is more important than primary road than secondary road etc) allowing a routing engine to direct drivers worldwide onto the main routes (and also possibly keep pedestrians and cyclists off them). I do think that the '_link' element needs to be used to help sat-nav systems give meaningful instructions and not give out information about turning onto link roads when it should say 'turn onto Highway 101'. I do think the description of the highway road classes in Map Features needs to be internationalised to allow people in new countries to chose the right mapping to their own infrastructure and naming and colour conventions. Personally I hope that San Francisco will prove a useful test case where many of the outstanding internationalisation issues can be bottomed out before there before large scale tagging across many other parts of the country. Currently everything except interstate is tagged as 'residential'. If it was agreed that state highways should be 'trunk' roads then would it be sensible to design a 'bot' to scan un-touched tiger data for road names including the word 'state' but not the word 'interstate' and automatically update the tags from 'highway=residential' to 'highway=trunk' (or whatever is agreed). Regards, Peter -Original Message- From: Andy Allan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 April 2008 17:38 To: Peter Miller Cc: Talk Openstreetmap Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere If we can agree on the rendering rules and get both Mapnik and osmarender sorted out for the USA sorted out - they both work fine. Even if we had a production-ready mechanism for country-specific rendering, it would still be a matter of opinion, or more accurately, a matter of cartographic style, as to whether we want to render the freeways in orange. After all, it's just a map, and conventions are only conventions, not hard and fast rules. Not saying that we shouldn't, just that your phrasing is quite aggressive for what is a matter of taste. I wouldn't want someone to say that my choice of colours for the cycle map contours needs sorting out (even if that might well be true!). Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
On Friday 18 April 2008 19:14:22 Tom Hughes wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Adam Schreiber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Tom Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an efficient way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look like should somebody want to write it. Shouldn't this be as easy as adding a tag indicating country and altering the stylesheet to say highway=motorway country=us = color=yellow, highway=motorway country=uk = color=blue? Yes, obviously we could make everybody go round and tag the umpty million objects in the database with a country code. That is a pretty daft solution though when it should be possible to automate it. Of course as soon as we'd done that people would start asking for the shield shapes to change by state so we'd have to go round and add state tags and so on... Well in that case it wouldn't be unfeasible to add is_in=Texas to the highways and in fact, is_in= is clearly better than country= anyway. But you're right, for country-wide location ionformation, it _should_ be possible to automate. Regards, Mat Williams signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 19:14 +0100, Tom Hughes wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Adam Schreiber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Tom Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an efficient way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look like should somebody want to write it. Shouldn't this be as easy as adding a tag indicating country and altering the stylesheet to say highway=motorway country=us = color=yellow, highway=motorway country=uk = color=blue? Yes, obviously we could make everybody go round and tag the umpty million objects in the database with a country code. That is a pretty daft solution though when it should be possible to automate it. Of course as soon as we'd done that people would start asking for the shield shapes to change by state so we'd have to go round and add state tags and so on... Tom Provided we have the polygons describing the boundaries of countries, states etc then we could tag the data during the osm2pgsql processing. Alternatively it might be possible for Mapnik to query them at run time (with the right join to a table containing boundary polygons in the data source SELECT line it might even be possible today). Generating the appropriate polygons from OSM data would be another challenge for the reader. Using an external tool like the one used for coastline shapefile generator is probably the answer. My main concern would be the maintainability of the osm.xml style file. It is already nearing 200kB and adding country (or state) specific rendering would make it even more complex. Jon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
On Friday 18 April 2008 19:25:37 Peter Miller wrote: I hope I didn't come across as aggressive, but I did want to point out some really weird inconsistencies that do need to be resolved and wanted to encourage debate. In the UK a secondary roads is a minor road, in San Francisco this http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=slat=37.668663lon=-122.485307zoom=18 junction (a multilevel road with multiple flyovers) is classed as secondary whereas this http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=slat=37.428439lon=-121.909597zoom=19 one (an urban road with traffic signal controlled junctions) is classed as primary. I suspect that fact reason that the first is classed as secondary is because the mapper wanted an orange road and that it should really be a 'trunk' road. I really don't mind what the rendered colours are, that is for local discussion and there may even be multiple versions with different styles as far as I am concernedm, but currently the rendering is uk-centric and that seems inappropriate for the USA and seems to be causing distortions with tagging. I think most people agree with that, but as said, there's a technological barrier to overcome. I do think that the hierarchy of road classes needs to be respected across OSM (where a trunk road is more important than primary road than secondary road etc) allowing a routing engine to direct drivers worldwide onto the main routes (and also possibly keep pedestrians and cyclists off them). I do think that the '_link' element needs to be used to help sat-nav systems give meaningful instructions and not give out information about turning onto link roads when it should say 'turn onto Highway 101'. I do think the description of the highway road classes in Map Features needs to be internationalised to allow people in new countries to chose the right mapping to their own infrastructure and naming and colour conventions. It already is. See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Key:highway#International_equivalence for the current definitions. Regards, Matt Williams Personally I hope that San Francisco will prove a useful test case where many of the outstanding internationalisation issues can be bottomed out before there before large scale tagging across many other parts of the country. Currently everything except interstate is tagged as 'residential'. If it was agreed that state highways should be 'trunk' roads then would it be sensible to design a 'bot' to scan un-touched tiger data for road names including the word 'state' but not the word 'interstate' and automatically update the tags from 'highway=residential' to 'highway=trunk' (or whatever is agreed). signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jon Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Provided we have the polygons describing the boundaries of countries, states etc then we could tag the data during the osm2pgsql processing. Alternatively it might be possible for Mapnik to query them at run time (with the right join to a table containing boundary polygons in the data source SELECT line it might even be possible today). I was thinking about that while I was walking home earlier. The main question I guess is how efficient PostGIS is at answering the question which of these N hundred polygons is this data in, or how efficiently we can code the equivalent in osm2pgsql. My main concern would be the maintainability of the osm.xml style file. It is already nearing 200kB and adding country (or state) specific rendering would make it even more complex. Indeed. I was thinking about that too, and I think it needs an extrat level of indirection, so the existing stylesheet stays largely as it is but instead of saying that a secondary road is rendered as #213455 or whatever some sort of code name is given and then that is mapped to the real colour based on the country. Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
On Friday 18 April 2008 21:23:47 Peter Miller wrote: The answer is that OSM's currently colour scheme seems to be that it is UK imperialism! For interest, here are some colours using by Google maps around the world snip I would suggest we have a default of orange for top-level roads everywhere with a local override which is blue for the UK and other countries can debate what they want would be idea. I would suggest we don't change the colours on the default OSM map at all. And especially not to some US / Google imperialist global uniform style. If I buy a paper map from Michelin, another one from Kümmerly+Frey and a third from Falkplan, then I don't expect them to all have the same style. Why would all electronic maps need to look the same? There is a really simple technical solution to have a national render style for OSM maps. Setup your own national tile server. Like the Dutch tile server and IIRC there is one for Japan too. This has the additional benefit it spreads the load over more servers. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 21:57 +0100, Jon Burgess wrote: It should then be possible to include fips_cntry as a filter in the osm.xml. From a purely functional perspective this approach seems to work. The screenshot below shows what happens if you ask for the motorways in Ireland to be rendered in purple: http://tile.openstreetmap.org/direct/country-mways-example.png The motorways in England and Northern Ireland still render in the default blue. Jon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Tom Hughes wrote: | In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Peter Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | If we can agree on the rendering rules and get both Mapnik and osmarender | sorted out for the USA then people will be incentivised to tag | appropriately. The moto 'render and they will come' probably applies here as | elsewhere. | | Agreeing on the rules or colour schemes is not the problem. | | The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different | countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an efficient | way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look like | should somebody want to write it. I don't think this is a problem we shuold be trying to solve. We should be solving the problem of the tile server only producing 1 rendering. When I look at the USA, I want interstates to be blue. When an American looks at the UK, they want to see motorways to be a colour other than blue, because then they will understand instinctively what kind of road it is. This should be one of the major benefits of OSM over other maps. When someone from a USA IP address opens the map, they should see the USA style tiles by default, but have the UK tiles on the layer switcher. Robert (Jamie) Munro -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFICSf/z+aYVHdncI0RAsnVAKDQMXTqQ1140PMQj7tqae25Ua3HywCgh9Hu vgv5+TiMqgD0aaAGyN5T5rg= =mERT -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Tom Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Adam Schreiber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Tom Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an efficient way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look like should somebody want to write it. Shouldn't this be as easy as adding a tag indicating country and altering the stylesheet to say highway=motorway country=us = color=yellow, highway=motorway country=uk = color=blue? Yes, obviously we could make everybody go round and tag the umpty million objects in the database with a country code. That is a pretty daft solution though when it should be possible to automate it. Of course as soon as we'd done that people would start asking for the shield shapes to change by state so we'd have to go round and add state tags and so on... Tom Well, the ref tag should already have that information for the US anyway, so custom shields (and colors) could be done for interstates (I 5), US highways (US 101), state highways (US:CA 12) but probably not county highways (CTH 22). Karl ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere
Robert (Jamie) Munro schreef: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Tom Hughes wrote: | In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Peter Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | If we can agree on the rendering rules and get both Mapnik and osmarender | sorted out for the USA then people will be incentivised to tag | appropriately. The moto 'render and they will come' probably applies here as | elsewhere. | | Agreeing on the rules or colour schemes is not the problem. | | The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different | countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an efficient | way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look like | should somebody want to write it. I don't think this is a problem we shuold be trying to solve. We should be solving the problem of the tile server only producing 1 rendering. When I look at the USA, I want interstates to be blue. When an American looks at the UK, they want to see motorways to be a colour other than blue, because then they will understand instinctively what kind of road it is. This should be one of the major benefits of OSM over other maps. When someone from a USA IP address opens the map, they should see the USA style tiles by default, but have the UK tiles on the layer switcher. That would indeed make a lot of sense. Otherwise you will get odd results of roads changing style near the borders. So a separate tile server for the US is called for. Probably one for France as well with styles that look like Michelin's maps and maybe one for Germany (Are Germans used to Kummerley und Frey?) Polyglot ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
