Re: [talk-au] OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines has been changed by Aaronsta

[Phil Wyatt]

Mmm, given the amount of bike edits they may be another wandrer.Earth user 
trying to game the system

 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/116654835#map=12/-31.9131/115.8548

 

From: Phil Wyatt  
Sent: Thursday, 10 February 2022 6:23 PM
To: osm.talk...@thorsten.engler.id.au; 'OSM-Au' 
Subject: Re: [talk-au] OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines 
has been changed by Aaronsta

 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/aaronsta/history#map=3/-17.14/139.83 

 

… would be my best guess, Certainly a few strange changeset comments there.

 

Cheers - Phil

 

From: osm.talk...@thorsten.engler.id.au 
  mailto:osm.talk...@thorsten.engler.id.au> > 
Sent: Thursday, 10 February 2022 5:11 PM
To: 'OSM-Au' mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org> >
Subject: Re: [talk-au] OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines 
has been changed by Aaronsta

 

Seeing the large number of changes to the ATG being made in the last 2 days by 
Aaronsta  , I got some 
questions.

 

Who is Aaronsta? 

Is it anyone participating in this mailing list?

 

Have any of these changes been discussed somewhere?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Australian_Tagging_Guidelines 

 =revision=2262794=2250661 (ignore the street cabinet stuff at 
the bottom, that’s from someone else)

 

Cheers,

Thorsten

 

From: Graeme Fitzpatrick <  
graemefi...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Thursday, 10 February 2022 08:41
To: OSM-Au <  talk-au@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines 
has been changed by Aaronsta

 




 

 

 

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 at 22:35, OpenStreetMap Wiki mailto:w...@noreply.openstreetmap.org> > wrote:


The OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines has been
changed on 9 February 2022 by Aaronsta, see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines for
the current revision. 

Editor's summary: Fix undiscussed changes 

 

Sorry but that's a bit ironic, or did I miss the discussion about these changes?

 

One I noticed is that you've taken it upon yourself to include:

"Cycling is not permitted on footpaths in NSW, QLD, or Vic." 

 

Would you like to share this with Qld Transport?

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/wheeled-devices/bicycle


Riding on a footpath or shared path


On footpaths and shared paths, you share the space with pedestrians.

You must:

*   keep left and give way to all pedestrians
*   always ride to the left of bicycle riders coming toward you.

Looks like we may need a major reversion done here?

 

Thanks

 

Graeme

 

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Re: [talk-au] OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines has been changed by Aaronsta

[Michael Collinson]

Seems to have it in for Perth cyclists:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/116655265#map=12/-32.0362/115.8349

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117224600

Not from Perth so can't judge correctness but it doesn't look right.


On 2022-02-10 18:13, fors...@ozonline.com.au wrote:


Probably

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/aaronsta


 Who is Aaronsta?







Is it anyone participating in this mailing list?



Have any of these changes been discussed somewhere?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Australian_Tagging_Guidelines 
 
=revision=2262794=2250661 (ignore the street cabinet 
stuff at the bottom, that’s from someone else)




Cheers,

Thorsten



From: Graeme Fitzpatrick 
Sent: Thursday, 10 February 2022 08:41
To: OSM-Au 
Subject: Re: [talk-au] OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging  
Guidelines has been changed by Aaronsta













On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 at 22:35, OpenStreetMap Wiki 
 > wrote:



The OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines has been
changed on 9 February 2022 by Aaronsta, see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines for
the current revision.

Editor's summary: Fix undiscussed changes



Sorry but that's a bit ironic, or did I miss the discussion about  
these changes?




One I noticed is that you've taken it upon yourself to include:

"Cycling is not permitted on footpaths in NSW, QLD, or Vic."



Would you like to share this with Qld Transport?

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/wheeled-devices/bicycle


Riding on a footpath or shared path


On footpaths and shared paths, you share the space with pedestrians.

You must:

*    keep left and give way to all pedestrians
*    always ride to the left of bicycle riders coming toward you.

Looks like we may need a major reversion done here?



Thanks



Graeme










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Re: [talk-au] OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines has been changed by Aaronsta

[Phil Wyatt]

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/aaronsta/history#map=3/-17.14/139.83 

 

… would be my best guess, Certainly a few strange changeset comments there.

 

Cheers - Phil

 

From: osm.talk...@thorsten.engler.id.au  
Sent: Thursday, 10 February 2022 5:11 PM
To: 'OSM-Au' 
Subject: Re: [talk-au] OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines 
has been changed by Aaronsta

 

Seeing the large number of changes to the ATG being made in the last 2 days by 
Aaronsta  , I got some 
questions.

 

Who is Aaronsta? 

Is it anyone participating in this mailing list?

 

Have any of these changes been discussed somewhere?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Australian_Tagging_Guidelines 

 =revision=2262794=2250661 (ignore the street cabinet stuff at 
the bottom, that’s from someone else)

 

Cheers,

Thorsten

 

From: Graeme Fitzpatrick <  
graemefi...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Thursday, 10 February 2022 08:41
To: OSM-Au <  talk-au@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines 
has been changed by Aaronsta

 




 

 

 

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 at 22:35, OpenStreetMap Wiki mailto:w...@noreply.openstreetmap.org> > wrote:


The OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines has been
changed on 9 February 2022 by Aaronsta, see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines for
the current revision. 

Editor's summary: Fix undiscussed changes 

 

Sorry but that's a bit ironic, or did I miss the discussion about these changes?

 

One I noticed is that you've taken it upon yourself to include:

"Cycling is not permitted on footpaths in NSW, QLD, or Vic." 

 

Would you like to share this with Qld Transport?

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/wheeled-devices/bicycle


Riding on a footpath or shared path


On footpaths and shared paths, you share the space with pedestrians.

You must:

*   keep left and give way to all pedestrians
*   always ride to the left of bicycle riders coming toward you.

Looks like we may need a major reversion done here?

 

Thanks

 

Graeme

 

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Re: [talk-au] OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines has been changed by Aaronsta

[forster]

Probably

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/aaronsta


 Who is Aaronsta?







Is it anyone participating in this mailing list?



Have any of these changes been discussed somewhere?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Australian_Tagging_Guidelines  =revision=2262794=2250661 (ignore the street cabinet stuff at the bottom, that’s from someone   
else)




Cheers,

Thorsten



From: Graeme Fitzpatrick 
Sent: Thursday, 10 February 2022 08:41
To: OSM-Au 
Subject: Re: [talk-au] OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging   
Guidelines has been changed by Aaronsta













On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 at 22:35, OpenStreetMap Wiki   
 > wrote:



The OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines has been
changed on 9 February 2022 by Aaronsta, see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines for
the current revision.

Editor's summary: Fix undiscussed changes



Sorry but that's a bit ironic, or did I miss the discussion about   
these changes?




One I noticed is that you've taken it upon yourself to include:

"Cycling is not permitted on footpaths in NSW, QLD, or Vic."



Would you like to share this with Qld Transport?

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/wheeled-devices/bicycle


Riding on a footpath or shared path


On footpaths and shared paths, you share the space with pedestrians.

You must:

*   keep left and give way to all pedestrians
*   always ride to the left of bicycle riders coming toward you.

Looks like we may need a major reversion done here?



Thanks



Graeme










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Re: [talk-au] OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines has been changed by Aaronsta

[osm.talk-au]

Seeing the large number of changes to the ATG being made in the last 2 days by 
Aaronsta  , I got some 
questions.

 

Who is Aaronsta? 

Is it anyone participating in this mailing list?

 

Have any of these changes been discussed somewhere?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Australian_Tagging_Guidelines 

 =revision=2262794=2250661 (ignore the street cabinet stuff at 
the bottom, that’s from someone else)

 

Cheers,

Thorsten

 

From: Graeme Fitzpatrick  
Sent: Thursday, 10 February 2022 08:41
To: OSM-Au 
Subject: Re: [talk-au] OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines 
has been changed by Aaronsta

 




 

 

 

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 at 22:35, OpenStreetMap Wiki mailto:w...@noreply.openstreetmap.org> > wrote:


The OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines has been
changed on 9 February 2022 by Aaronsta, see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines for
the current revision. 

Editor's summary: Fix undiscussed changes 

 

Sorry but that's a bit ironic, or did I miss the discussion about these changes?

 

One I noticed is that you've taken it upon yourself to include:

"Cycling is not permitted on footpaths in NSW, QLD, or Vic." 

 

Would you like to share this with Qld Transport?

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/wheeled-devices/bicycle


Riding on a footpath or shared path


On footpaths and shared paths, you share the space with pedestrians.

You must:

*   keep left and give way to all pedestrians
*   always ride to the left of bicycle riders coming toward you.

Looks like we may need a major reversion done here?

 

Thanks

 

Graeme

 

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Re: [talk-au] "Bad" directions on Outback roads

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

No argument at all from me!

Just thinking of possible options :-)

On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 at 11:55, Dian Ågesson  wrote:

> A further thought,
>
> Tagging permissions that open the road in certain times, rather than close
> them, could also lead to better outcomes with less sophisticated routing
> software/offline connections.
>
>
> access=no
>
> access:conditional=yes @ (May-Nov)
>
> access:conditional= discouraged @ (Dec-Apr and dry)
>
& that's an interesting idea!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] "Bad" directions on Outback roads

[Dian Ågesson]

A further thought,

Tagging permissions that open the road in certain times, rather than 
close them, could also lead to better outcomes with less sophisticated 
routing software/offline connections.


access=no

access:conditional=yes @ (May-Nov)

access:conditional= discouraged @ (Dec-Apr and dry)

Dian

On 2022-02-10 01:28, Dian Ågesson wrote:


Hey Brendan, Graeme

If we wanted to alleviate the explicitly conditional problem, you could 
combine the following:


vehicle:conditional=discouraged @ (Dec-Apr "Impassable during wet 
season")


vehicle:conditional=no @ (Dec-Apr and wet)

By leaving it discouraged without further info gives wiggle room for 
legal access when the road is passable.


Dian

On 2022-02-10 01:05, Brendan Barnes wrote:

Thanks Graeme, I'll just tweak your brackets a little to be a valid 
tag:


vehicle:conditional=no @ (Dec-Apr "Road is generally impassable during 
the wet season - seek local knowledge")


My only feedback would be an explicit conditional=no should only be 
used if there's signage or other evidence to support no general public 
access for those months each year.


If there's consensus seasonal roads should be tagged as such, I'm happy 
to write something up in the Australian tagging guidelines.


On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 at 09:52, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
 wrote:


On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 at 08:25,  wrote:

The challenge with specifying months is the "wet"/"dry" season is it is 
not always fixed.


True, but if we modify Brendan's suggestion a bit to:

vehicle:conditional=no @ Dec-Apr ("Road is generally impassable during 
the wet season - seek local knowledge")


that "should" (?) stop routers from going along it, but when you stop 
at the servo & ask if the road to Burketown is open, they'll be able to 
say yes / no.


Thanks

Graeme


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Re: [talk-au] "Bad" directions on Outback roads

[Dian Ågesson]

Hey Brendan, Graeme

If we wanted to alleviate the explicitly conditional problem, you could 
combine the following:


vehicle:conditional=discouraged @ (Dec-Apr "Impassable during wet 
season")


vehicle:conditional=no @ (Dec-Apr and wet)

By leaving it discouraged without further info gives wiggle room for 
legal access when the road is passable.


Dian

On 2022-02-10 01:05, Brendan Barnes wrote:

Thanks Graeme, I'll just tweak your brackets a little to be a valid 
tag:


vehicle:conditional=no @ (Dec-Apr "Road is generally impassable during 
the wet season - seek local knowledge")


My only feedback would be an explicit conditional=no should only be 
used if there's signage or other evidence to support no general public 
access for those months each year.


If there's consensus seasonal roads should be tagged as such, I'm happy 
to write something up in the Australian tagging guidelines.


On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 at 09:52, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
 wrote:


On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 at 08:25,  wrote:

The challenge with specifying months is the "wet"/"dry" season is it is 
not always fixed.


True, but if we modify Brendan's suggestion a bit to:

vehicle:conditional=no @ Dec-Apr ("Road is generally impassable during 
the wet season - seek local knowledge")


that "should" (?) stop routers from going along it, but when you stop 
at the servo & ask if the road to Burketown is open, they'll be able to 
say yes / no.


Thanks

Graeme


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Re: [talk-au] "Bad" directions on Outback roads

[Brendan Barnes]

Thanks Graeme, I'll just tweak your brackets a little to be a valid tag:

vehicle:conditional=no @ (Dec-Apr "Road is generally impassable during the
wet season - seek local knowledge")

My only feedback would be an explicit conditional=*no* should only be used
if there's signage or other evidence to support no general public access
for those months each year.

If there's consensus seasonal roads should be tagged as such, I'm happy to
write something up in the Australian tagging guidelines.


On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 at 09:52, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
>
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 at 08:25,  wrote:
>
>>
>> The challenge with specifying months is the "wet"/"dry" season is it is
>> not always fixed.
>>
>
> True, but if we modify Brendan's suggestion a bit to:
>
> vehicle:conditional=no @ Dec-Apr ("Road is generally impassable during
> the wet season - seek local knowledge")
>
>  that "should" (?) stop routers from going along it, but when you stop at
> the servo & ask if the road to Burketown is open, they'll be able to say
> yes / no.
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] OSM Notes

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 at 13:48, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Changing subject from tracks for a minute :-), I was reading the weekly
> Newsletter yesterday & spotted this article
> https://www-openstreetmap-org.translate.goog/user/AngocA/diary/398423?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=EN&_x_tr_hl=en-GB,
> concerning clearing up all the outstanding OSM Notes in Colombia.
>
> According to Pascal, there are currently ~4500 open Notes across Australia
>

So, I posted that 2 weeks ago yesterday arvo, & there were ~4500 open OSM
Notes.

As I write this, there are now 3543!, which I think we'll all agree is a
pretty mighty effort in 2 weeks!!! :-)

Thanks everybody for your efforts! :-)

The oldest Notes have also jumped from 2013 to ~30 still outstanding from
2017, but most of them are awaiting further feedback (or going to be
deleted as unsolvable?).

So, if anybody else wants to join in, please have a look at
https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-notes-country-custom?c=Australia=open,
& start editing & resolving! :-)

Thanks

Graeme

>
> Looking at open notes only:
>
> https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-notes-country-custom?c=Australia=open
> they go all the way back to 2013! Just glancing at them though, most of
> them could probably just be closed, as the "problem" is already mapped,
> there's not enough detail / info to resolve it & so on?
>
> So, what do we all think?
>
> As I said, I've cleared almost all of the GC, except for a few that need
> further work / survey. How would we like to do things - work on our own
> local areas / go through the list from old > new or vice versa / pick
> random items?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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Re: [talk-au] Aust. Walking Track Grading System (AWTGS)

[Phil Wyatt]

Hi Folks,

 

Thanks for the great discussion on this issue. I have tried to summarise the 
discussion and it seems like there is some consensus around the following 
tagging

 

hiking_scale:awtgs= as the general tag for the grade of the WHOLE track as that 
is what is detailed in the AWTGS guidelines 

 

and

 

source:hiking_scale:awtgs= for the source of the data with values such as

 

*   source:hiking_scale:awtgs=user  - Where a user has defined the grading
*   source:hiking_scale:awtgs=operator  - Where the grading has been 
applied by the operator of the track (and the operator should also be applied 
to the track)
*   source:hiking_scale:awtgs=as_signed  - Where the data has come from a 
sign located at the start of the track

 

There has also been some discussion on sections of track being graded as well. 
I think this needs further work as it doesn’t seem to match the guidelines and 
may also depend on how operators have defined the tracks ie Is the Larapinta 
‘Track’ all graded the same or are ‘sections’ rated differently? I know in the 
case of Tasmania the Overland Track that PWS has a single grading for the whole 
track but some other websites have graded each ‘section/days travel’.

 

There also needs to some further clarification if this goes on the ways or 
relations in regards to longer defined tracks with relations.

 

If we are close then I reckon an updated wiki with these values on both

 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australia/Walking_Tracks and

 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Bush_Walking_and_Cycling_Tracks

 

 

Cheers - Phil

 

 

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Re: [talk-au] "Bad" directions on Outback roads

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 at 08:25,  wrote:

>
> The challenge with specifying months is the "wet"/"dry" season is it is
> not always fixed.
>

True, but if we modify Brendan's suggestion a bit to:

vehicle:conditional=no @ Dec-Apr ("Road is generally impassable during the
wet season - seek local knowledge")

 that "should" (?) stop routers from going along it, but when you stop at
the servo & ask if the road to Burketown is open, they'll be able to say
yes / no.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines has been changed by Aaronsta

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 at 22:35, OpenStreetMap Wiki <
w...@noreply.openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
> The OpenStreetMap Wiki page Australian Tagging Guidelines has been
> changed on 9 February 2022 by Aaronsta, see
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines for
> the current revision.
>
> Editor's summary: Fix undiscussed changes


Sorry but that's a bit ironic, or did I miss the discussion about these
changes?

One I noticed is that you've taken it upon yourself to include:
"Cycling is not permitted on footpaths in NSW, QLD, or Vic."

Would you like to share this with Qld Transport?
https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/wheeled-devices/bicycle
Riding on a footpath or shared path

On footpaths and shared paths, you share the space with pedestrians.

You must:

   - keep left and give way to all pedestrians
   - always ride to the left of bicycle riders coming toward you.

Looks like we may need a major reversion done here?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] "Bad" directions on Outback roads

[stev391]

 

The challenge with specifying months is the "wet"/"dry" season is it is not always fixed.  i.e. Lakefield National Park is not expected to open to June this year, and other roads in the area further north are closed till July. (Some didn't even open at all last year, but that was more to do with damage from the wet season not being repaired and COVID-19 complicating things).

 

All that I can see we achieving, is tagging roads to "seasonal=dry_season" or "seasonal=yes" and leave the day to day status up to the router. (potentially including a reference to where the day to day status can be drawn from would be useful, if the licences allow us to refer to them).  We of course require a source to determine the seasonal status from, so would either need a survey or an appropriately licenced data set to draw from. (Can't get that from aerial images, and not many Mapillary images in the area to spot signs if they exist).


 

Stephen.

 

Thanks, fellas! It's not an utterly stupid idea then!



 



On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 at 14:46, Brendan Barnes  wrote:


 
If a road has definitive closure dates we might be able to utilise opening_hours. I tried to start something similar on Victorian Alps seasonal road closures, for example https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/105842220. However these closures are usually described something like "closed to vehicles from Queens Birthday weekend to Cup Weekend" and are proving difficult to describe in OSM tag format without having to upload new dates each year.



 

I've been mapping Surf Life Saving clubs with:


opening_hours=Sep-Apr Sa-Su 08:00-17:00, which seems to work?

Would just opening_hours=May-Nov work?

 


I know a lot of the roads in Cape York Peninsula are only open during the "dry" season, but not sue how they're tagged, if they are at all?

 

Thanks
 

Graeme




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Re: [talk-au] "Bad" directions on Outback roads

[Brendan Barnes]

Yep opening_hours was approved for ways, and an example given was for
summer-only roads
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:opening_hours#Voting_addon_.22way.22

Whilst opening_hours is popular on amenities, the tag really doesn't seem
to get much usage on highway tags. Perhaps wrapping it in an
access:conditional works better for highways? As a benefit, conditional
tags can provide a lot more states, eg:

vehicle:conditional=discouraged @ (Dec-Apr "Road is gnerally impassable
during the wet season")

On doing a little more research, opening_hours.js script used by popular
generators and validators throw an error on the opening_hours formatting
being months only eg May-Nov and it expects May-Nov 00:00-24:00 or a
comment
https://openingh.openstreetmap.de/evaluation_tool/?EXP=May-Nov%2000%3A00-24%3A00

Mapping complex tagging for routing engines to parse will always be a
chicken-and-egg situation. But I suppose build it and they will come (or
route around it in this case).


On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 at 16:28, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
> Thanks, fellas! It's not an utterly stupid idea then!
>
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 at 14:46, Brendan Barnes  wrote:
>
>>
>> If a road has definitive closure dates we might be able to utilise
>> opening_hours. I tried to start something similar on Victorian Alps
>> seasonal road closures, for example
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/105842220. However these closures are
>> usually described something like "closed to vehicles from Queens Birthday
>> weekend to Cup Weekend" and are proving difficult to describe in OSM tag
>> format without having to upload new dates each year.
>>
>
> I've been mapping Surf Life Saving clubs with:
>
> opening_hours=Sep-Apr Sa-Su 08:00-17:00, which seems to work?
>
> Would just opening_hours=May-Nov work?
>
> I know a lot of the roads in Cape York Peninsula are only open during the
> "dry" season, but not sue how they're tagged, if they are at all?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Betty's Burgers - fast food or restaurant?

[Peter Hardy]

Betty's Burgers & Concrete Co? I've eaten at the one on Clarence St and the one 
in Darling Harbour in Sydney (admittedly before *waves arms around* all of 
this, so a couple years ago). They're fast food with dine-in tables - order at 
the register.

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022, at 10:06 PM, Mat Attlee wrote:
> I am currently on holiday and stumbled upon the chain that is Betty's 
> Burgers. I didn't go inside so could anyone tell me if these are restaurants 
> or fast food outlets where you order at the counter? I've had a look at ones 
> already mapped and they aren't tagged consistently.
> 
> Happy to create an entry in the name suggestion index as I see there is 
> already a Wikidata entry.
> ___
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Re: [talk-au] Betty's Burgers - fast food or restaurant?

[Alex Sims]

I’ve never been to one, but have been to something that looks similar according 
to the images I found. It appears that you order and pay for your food and then 
are given a buzzer and then fetch your food. Reading 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Drestaurant , the absence of 
waiting staff means it isn’t amenity=restaurant but amenity=fast_food.

Alex

From: Mat Attlee 
Date: Wednesday, 9 February 2022 at 9:40 pm
To: OSM Australian Talk List 
Subject: [talk-au] Betty's Burgers - fast food or restaurant?

I am currently on holiday and stumbled upon the chain that is Betty's Burgers. 
I didn't go inside so could anyone tell me if these are restaurants or fast 
food outlets where you order at the counter? I've had a look at ones already 
mapped and they aren't tagged consistently.

Happy to create an entry in the name suggestion index as I see there is already 
a Wikidata entry.
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Re: [talk-au] Betty's Burgers - fast food or restaurant?

[Evan Athea]

You order and pickup at the counter

On 9/2/22 22:06, Mat Attlee wrote:
I am currently on holiday and stumbled upon the chain that is Betty's 
Burgers. I didn't go inside so could anyone tell me if these are 
restaurants or fast food outlets where you order at the counter? I've 
had a look at ones already mapped and they aren't tagged consistently.


Happy to create an entry in the name suggestion index as I see there 
is already a Wikidata entry.


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[talk-au] Betty's Burgers - fast food or restaurant?

[Mat Attlee]

I am currently on holiday and stumbled upon the chain that is Betty's
Burgers. I didn't go inside so could anyone tell me if these are
restaurants or fast food outlets where you order at the counter? I've had a
look at ones already mapped and they aren't tagged consistently.

Happy to create an entry in the name suggestion index as I see there is
already a Wikidata entry.
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Re: [talk-au] Aust. Walking Track Grading System (AWTGS)

[Warin]

On 9/2/22 16:19, Ian Steer wrote:


>> I prefer hiking_scale:awtgs= as you know that it is a hiking scale ..

>> even if you don't know what awtgs is.

>>

>Fair comment.

>

>> Routes are a different problem  while the worst one could be

>> included .. what happens if/when things change? Possibly better to 
leave it off?


>> Consider that some routes have alternatives, excursions...

>>

>One grade for the entire route, which counts the worst bits of the 
whole distance, plus separate grades for individual sections?


>

>& can we just write this up for Oz use, or do we have to go down the 
full path of RFC / Proposal / Voting? (Which will >undoubtedly be a 
Grade 5 trek!


>:-))

I’m thinking “hiking_scale:awtgs=”.  This would have solved the 
problem of my well-meaning German friend deleting my tags.


Since it is an Australian tag, I would have thought adding it to the 
Australian Wiki would be sufficient.




No. Germans, French, English don't go looking for tags on every 
countries wiki. The documentation should go on the main OSM wiki so it 
can be found easily by anyone looking for it.


With regard to users applying a grade using this system, how about we 
use a “source:grade=” tag?  Maybe if the AWTGS grade  has been 
sign-posted by the trail manager (whoever that might be), it could be 
“source:grade=as_signed”??  If a grade has been assigned by a user, 
“source:grade=user” ??




If sources are state/suggested on the OSM wiki that would also assist 
mappers trying to enter the data.___
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