[talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap
My 8.5 cents. Ban me! Tim. Tim, I think that you may have overvalued yourself, But that is certainly no reasn to ban you. Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap
My understanding is that Nearmap wish all contributions to OSM, by any mapper who has agreed to the CT, derived from their imagery (before the 17th June 2011) to be able to be relicenced by OSMF under any licence it (OSMF) chooses at any time. However I also can't see exactly how the published statement meets this wish. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap
On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 09:12:24 +0800 James Andrewartha tr...@student.uwa.edu.au wrote: Sadly, that's not how I understand it - particularly the terms in place between OSM and the individual ... at the relevant time. bit says to me that retrospective signing of the CTs to cover old contributions isn't allowed. James Andrewartha the last time I read the CTs (which have several versions), there was a clear reference to me having the rights to the data and perpetually licensing those rights to another organisation That would stop me signing up whether I used Yahoo! or Bing or NearMap. Indeed it would put a query on a lot of stuff I obtained by sending out GPS devices with random others to collect tracks. Ben, thanks for the offer, but worded as it is I still don't find that compatible with OSMF's terms and conditions. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net wrote: the last time I read the CTs (which have several versions), there was a clear reference to me having the rights to the data and perpetually licensing those rights to another organisation That would stop me signing up whether I used Yahoo! or Bing or NearMap. It seems to be the view by a lot of OSMers that tracing Yahoo or Bing is making a new work and that new work is not a derived work in the copyright sense, but rather just a terms of service/contract issue. Hence whomever does the tracing is free to license the work as they please so long as in doing so they are in line with the terms of service of that provider. Both the statements I've seen which OSMers base tracing from these two, seem to make no mention of the copyright of the imagery, and the copyright of derived works. Nearmap took a different approach and made it a license thing rather than a terms and conditions thing. On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Francis Davey fjm...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/6/15 Ben Last ben.l...@nearmap.com All such additions or edits submitted to OSM prior to 17 June 2011 may be held and continue to be used by OSM under the terms in place between OSM and the individual which submitted the addition or edit at the relevant time. I absolutely do not want to be a fly in the ointment here, but what this paragraph literally means is that OSM can do with those edits just those things which it was permitted to do by the individual contributor (and therefore under the terms to which that contributor agreed) prior to 17 June 2011. If that individual's agreement was restricted to a CC-BY-SA licence then OSM is unlikely to be able to then use the nearmap contributions under ODbL. Maybe that is what is understood in this thread, or maybe the context somehow says that this paragraph doesn't mean what it appears to mean, but I thought it was worth saying. Yes. I think I follow-up to this point from nearmap is needed. I agree, reading it this way nearmap is saying that if you clicked yes to the CTs you can distribute your nearmap derived data under any license you want so long as its in line with the CTs, but if you didn't click the CTs you can only distribute as CC-BY-SA, this doesn't sound like what they intended... That it was drafted, carefully, by a lawyer I do not doubt. But lawyers draft things on instruction to achieve particular goals. My understanding from Ben's comment is that one of the goals of nearmap is that derived works are distributed only under CC-BY-SA. The second paragraph does that job well as far as I can see and prevents OSM from relicensing nearmap data under ODbL. All this is, of course, on the assumption that any intellectual property rights require licensing. Unless there is clear case law in this jurisdiction don't see how we can assume otherwise, we must play on the safe side and assume there is. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap
Yes Steve - you're right. The For Clarity paragraph basically says that contributions from a mapper who hadn't accepted the CT and were derived from Nearmap prior to June 17th 2011 can stay in the data base and do not have to be deleted. They give no time limit or OSM-licence limitations on this allowence to keep the current derived data, therefore I believe that all mappers (who wish their contributions to remain in the OSM project) can now accept the CT without having to worry whether one or more of their contributions was derived from Nearmap. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap
Ben said, I say again: that's exactly what it was intended to achive and it was written by our lawyers to do just that. :) Thanks Ben, That makes it crystal clear that nearmappers can accept the CT's. Now hopefully a certain OSMer will find it in their hearts to accept the CT and then I can name those new roads in Canberra quicker than you can say Hibberd Crescent. I also hope that the resident spewers of FUD will finally desist, but I expect this hope is in vain. Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap
On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 14:21 +1000, Nick Hocking wrote: Ben said, I say again: that's exactly what it was intended to achive and it was written by our lawyers to do just that. :) Thanks Ben, That makes it crystal clear that nearmappers can accept the CT's. Well, mappers who exclusively used nearmap anyway. Unfortunately, as Ben has pointed out many times, the problem isnt that NearMaps terms have created a problem, it is the fact that the new OSM terms are incompatible with the licence most commonly used for this information. While its great that NearMap sourced data can be used, this doesnt mean the incompatibility problems of other data sources are no longer relevant. CC-by-SA data continues to be incompatible with the new terms, and that is not the fault of people who have given their data to be used in the OSM project. David ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap
- Original Message - From: Ben Last ben.l...@nearmap.com To: OpenStreetMap Learned Discussions t...@openstreetmap.org; OSM Australian Talk List talk-au@openstreetmap.org; Licensing and other legal discussions. legal-t...@openstreetmap.org Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 2:30 AM Subject: [talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap Hi all As promised, with apologies for the delay, here is the statement from NearMap regarding submission of derived works of our PhotoMaps to OSM. * Nearmap.com wishes to clarify the extent to which OpenStreetMap (OSM) may use additions or edits to its street maps which are derived from nearmap.com’s PhotoMaps. All such additions or edits submitted to OSM prior to 17 June 2011 may be held and continue to be used by OSM under the terms in place between OSM and the individual which submitted the addition or edit at the relevant time. From 18 June 2011, OSM may not accept or use any additions or edits to its streetmaps or any other data which is derived from nearmap.com PhotoMaps. If any data derived from nearmap.com PhotoMaps is provided to OSM after that date, it must be deleted from OSM’s database immediately. * For clarity; the second paragraph allows edits submitted before the 17th of June 2011 under CC-BY-SA (i.e., by someone who hadn't accepted the new CTs at the time of submission) *or* ODbL/whatever (by someone who had accepted the CTs at the time of submission) to stay in the database. For the Australian mappers in particular, this means that there need be no mass deletion of existing data based on tracing from nearmap.com PhotoMaps. It also means that nearmap.com PhotoMaps can't be used after the 17th of June as a basis for tracing data to submit to OSM. Ben, sorry to be pedantic, but when you say the second paragraph allows edits submitted before the 17th of June 2011 under CC-BY-SA (i.e., by someone who hadn't accepted the new CTs at the time of submission) . to stay in the database, do you mean it is OK for someone who in the past has made edits based on Nearmap imagery, (and who has not yet agreed to the CT's because they had used Nearmap) , to now agree to the CT's without being in breach of Nearmaps T C's? I know this may seem like splitting hairs, but there is a difference between allowing edits to remain in the database which is something OSM sysadmins have control over, and allowing users to agree to the CT's which is something individual OSM users have control over, and I'm just trying to understand , as someone who has used Nearmap, but not agreed to the CT's, where I stand. Regards David Again, I'd like to clarify that nearmap.com *have not changed anything in our licensing terms*. This is not us withdrawing our support. The OSMF are making a change to the contributor terms which makes them incompatible with the requirement, under our community licence, that derived works be distributed only under CC-BY-SA. We are not able to change our licence to allow distribution of derived works under unspecified future licences. Regards Ben -- *Ben Last* *Development Manager, HyperWeb* [image: nearmap.com] http://www.nearmap.com *T:* +61 8 9321 9340 | *D:* +61 8 6140 7212 | *F:* +61 8 9321 6876 | *M:*+61 423 475 673 *W:* www.nearmap.com | *A:* Ground Floor, 66 Kings Park Road, West Perth WA 6005 [image: leave us a message on facebook] http://www.facebook.com/nearmap [image: follow us on twitter] http://www.twitter.com/nearmap [image: nearmap youtube channel] http://www.youtube.com/nearmap [image: linkedin]http://www.linkedin.com/company/nearmap-pty-ltd [image: Get your Free nearmap.com newsletter now!]http://www.nearmap.com/nearmap/subscription (1) This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact us, then delete the email. (2) Before opening or using attachments, check them for viruses and defects. The contents of this email and its attachments may become scrambled, truncated or altered in transmission. Please notify us of any anomalies. (3) Our liability is limited to resupplying the email and attached files or the cost of having them resupplied. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap
On 15 June 2011 19:52, David Groom revi...@pacific-rim.net wrote: sorry to be pedantic, but when you say the second paragraph allows edits submitted before the 17th of June 2011 under CC-BY-SA (i.e., by someone who hadn't accepted the new CTs at the time of submission) . to stay in the database, do you mean it is OK for someone who in the past has made edits based on Nearmap imagery, (and who has not yet agreed to the CT's because they had used Nearmap) , to now agree to the CT's without being in breach of Nearmaps T C's? I know this may seem like splitting hairs, but there is a difference between allowing edits to remain in the database which is something OSM sysadmins have control over, and allowing users to agree to the CT's which is something individual OSM users have control over, and I'm just trying to understand , as someone who has used Nearmap, but not agreed to the CT's, where I stand. Pedantic is ok, this was written by lawyers! The second paragraph was drafted specifically to allow any NearMap-derived edits made up to the 17th of June to stay in the OSM database. As I understand it, this statement allows a user to sign up to the new CTs without violating our licence in respect of those edits. Regards Ben ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap
- Original Message - From: Ben Last ben.l...@nearmap.com To: David Groom revi...@pacific-rim.net; OSM Australian Talk List talk-au@openstreetmap.org; Licensing and other legal discussions. legal-t...@openstreetmap.org Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 12:48 AM Subject: Re: [talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap On 15 June 2011 19:52, David Groom revi...@pacific-rim.net wrote: sorry to be pedantic, but when you say the second paragraph allows edits submitted before the 17th of June 2011 under CC-BY-SA (i.e., by someone who hadn't accepted the new CTs at the time of submission) . to stay in the database, do you mean it is OK for someone who in the past has made edits based on Nearmap imagery, (and who has not yet agreed to the CT's because they had used Nearmap) , to now agree to the CT's without being in breach of Nearmaps T C's? I know this may seem like splitting hairs, but there is a difference between allowing edits to remain in the database which is something OSM sysadmins have control over, and allowing users to agree to the CT's which is something individual OSM users have control over, and I'm just trying to understand , as someone who has used Nearmap, but not agreed to the CT's, where I stand. Pedantic is ok, this was written by lawyers! The second paragraph was drafted specifically to allow any NearMap-derived edits made up to the 17th of June to stay in the OSM database. As I understand it, this statement allows a user to sign up to the new CTs without violating our licence in respect of those edits. Regards Ben Ben many thanks for the quick, and clear, response. Regards David ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap
On 16 June 2011 07:48, Ben Last ben.l...@nearmap.com wrote: On 15 June 2011 19:52, David Groom revi...@pacific-rim.net wrote: sorry to be pedantic, but when you say the second paragraph allows edits submitted before the 17th of June 2011 under CC-BY-SA (i.e., by someone who hadn't accepted the new CTs at the time of submission) . to stay in the database, do you mean it is OK for someone who in the past has made edits based on Nearmap imagery, (and who has not yet agreed to the CT's because they had used Nearmap) , to now agree to the CT's without being in breach of Nearmaps T C's? I know this may seem like splitting hairs, but there is a difference between allowing edits to remain in the database which is something OSM sysadmins have control over, and allowing users to agree to the CT's which is something individual OSM users have control over, and I'm just trying to understand , as someone who has used Nearmap, but not agreed to the CT's, where I stand. Pedantic is ok, this was written by lawyers! The second paragraph was drafted specifically to allow any NearMap-derived edits made up to the 17th of June to stay in the OSM database. As I understand it, this statement allows a user to sign up to the new CTs without violating our licence in respect of those edits. Sadly, that's not how I understand it - particularly the terms in place between OSM and the individual ... at the relevant time. bit says to me that retrospective signing of the CTs to cover old contributions isn't allowed. James Andrewartha ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap
James; all I can say is that the paragraph in question was written by our General Counsel specifically to allow existing contributions to stay in place. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't comment on interpretation! Regards Ben PS: TRS80? I'm old enough to have owned one when they were new :( On 16 June 2011 09:12, James Andrewartha *trs80*@student.uwa.edu.au wrote: Sadly, that's not how I understand it - particularly the terms in place between OSM and the individual ... at the relevant time. bit says to me that retrospective signing of the CTs to cover old contributions isn't allowed. James Andrewartha -- *Ben Last* *Development Manager, HyperWeb* [image: nearmap.com] http://www.nearmap.com *T:* +61 8 9321 9340 | *D:* +61 8 6140 7212 | *F:* +61 8 9321 6876 | *M:*+61 423 475 673 *W:* www.nearmap.com | *A:* Ground Floor, 66 Kings Park Road, West Perth WA 6005 [image: leave us a message on facebook] http://www.facebook.com/nearmap [image: follow us on twitter] http://www.twitter.com/nearmap [image: nearmap youtube channel] http://www.youtube.com/nearmap [image: linkedin]http://www.linkedin.com/company/nearmap-pty-ltd [image: Get your Free nearmap.com newsletter now!]http://www.nearmap.com/nearmap/subscription ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap
Hi all As promised, with apologies for the delay, here is the statement from NearMap regarding submission of derived works of our PhotoMaps to OSM. * Nearmap.com wishes to clarify the extent to which OpenStreetMap (OSM) may use additions or edits to its street maps which are derived from nearmap.com’s PhotoMaps. All such additions or edits submitted to OSM prior to 17 June 2011 may be held and continue to be used by OSM under the terms in place between OSM and the individual which submitted the addition or edit at the relevant time. From 18 June 2011, OSM may not accept or use any additions or edits to its streetmaps or any other data which is derived from nearmap.com PhotoMaps. If any data derived from nearmap.com PhotoMaps is provided to OSM after that date, it must be deleted from OSM’s database immediately. * For clarity; the second paragraph allows edits submitted before the 17th of June 2011 under CC-BY-SA (i.e., by someone who hadn't accepted the new CTs at the time of submission) *or* ODbL/whatever (by someone who had accepted the CTs at the time of submission) to stay in the database. For the Australian mappers in particular, this means that there need be no mass deletion of existing data based on tracing from nearmap.com PhotoMaps. It also means that nearmap.com PhotoMaps can't be used after the 17th of June as a basis for tracing data to submit to OSM. Again, I'd like to clarify that nearmap.com *have not changed anything in our licensing terms*. This is not us withdrawing our support. The OSMF are making a change to the contributor terms which makes them incompatible with the requirement, under our community licence, that derived works be distributed only under CC-BY-SA. We are not able to change our licence to allow distribution of derived works under unspecified future licences. Regards Ben -- *Ben Last* *Development Manager, HyperWeb* [image: nearmap.com] http://www.nearmap.com *T:* +61 8 9321 9340 | *D:* +61 8 6140 7212 | *F:* +61 8 9321 6876 | *M:*+61 423 475 673 *W:* www.nearmap.com | *A:* Ground Floor, 66 Kings Park Road, West Perth WA 6005 [image: leave us a message on facebook] http://www.facebook.com/nearmap [image: follow us on twitter] http://www.twitter.com/nearmap [image: nearmap youtube channel] http://www.youtube.com/nearmap [image: linkedin]http://www.linkedin.com/company/nearmap-pty-ltd [image: Get your Free nearmap.com newsletter now!]http://www.nearmap.com/nearmap/subscription (1) This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact us, then delete the email. (2) Before opening or using attachments, check them for viruses and defects. The contents of this email and its attachments may become scrambled, truncated or altered in transmission. Please notify us of any anomalies. (3) Our liability is limited to resupplying the email and attached files or the cost of having them resupplied. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
