Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 10/18/2016 07:53 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Unfortunately the import was larger than expected and the revert drags
> on. 

And it still does! I was going a bit slower today in order not to
overload the API.

Thank you everyone for letting the revert run its course without
intervening further. Due to the fact that I hadn't spotted the full
extent of the import initially and missed out some bits, I have to use a
slightly different procedure than usual which may in some areas lead to
- temporarily - orphaned nodes where a building way has been deleted and
the nodes still stand; but the nodes are going to go away eventually and
I'll take care not to leave anything behind.

A few smaller import changesets had a lot of "normal" edits mixed in
with the import, and I manually excluded these changesets from the
revert; this means that a few imported buildings will also remain
standing but I'd rather err on the side of caution.

I saw that there have been heated discussions in some changeset comments
about "deleting all our work" - rest assured I'm only reverting a bad
import that goes back about two weeks at most. Should I accidentally
delete something that was not part of the import, we'll get it back
after the dust has settled.

I have no grudge with the people who have imported the data; I revert
something because the process was wrong, not because I dislike the
contributor.

A large number of objects has been uploaded in these past two weeks. If
I can recommend something for future imports, try to do them in smaller
chunks and take your time. Don't pack 50k nodes in a changeset and
upload several of them per day. If you spread things out over a couple
weeks or months, you'll put less strain on the API and ensure that *if*
something turns out problematic (which can happen even if following the
import rules to the letter!) you're not suddenly looking at a revert
that goes full throttle for several days.

I'll post updates about the revert as necessary.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[James]

Are you done the revert yet? I got a message from:
lesc 

"Hi,

It looks like some changes in Kanata you did removed all the lines that
represent buildings and only the corners are left as points.

Thanks, Les"

Seems like your reverting is messing up data and others are noticing. It's
been 2 days now...should it not have completed by now?


I've told him to direct his inquiries to you as you are the one in charge
of the mass revert.

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:53 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 10/17/2016 11:59 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> > The person responsible for cleaning up a poor revert should be the
> > person who ran it ;) it's only 30% complete and will run far into the
> > night in my time zone and I'll have to check on it after getting up. I'm
> > confident all will be fixed when you get up tomorrow morning.
>
> Unfortunately the import was larger than expected and the revert drags
> on. Meanwhile, a couple of accounts have been newly created by parties
> unknown ("addxy_imports", "ottawa_import") and these have (accidentally
> or purposefully) interfered with the revert, meaning that it will take
> even longer for me do this right.
>
> I would like to appeal to all involved parties to show some maturity.
> The import was in clear violation of established processes; it must be
> reverted, and then the community can - calmly and without any time
> pressure - decide what they want to do with the data.
>
> I haven't analysed the import in depth but I have seen a couple of
> examples where a perfectly well mapped building was wiped clean and
> replaced with one that was not at all better - this is clearly something
> we don't want to see in an import, it is a technical (or procedural)
> shortcoming that would definitely have been pointed out had there been a
> proper discussion beforehand.
>
> The requirement to talk about imports before you act is not an
> unnecessary bueraucratic hurdle; it is intended to avoid disappointment
> on all sides. An import that fears the broad daylight is probably one
> that should not be attempted at all!
>
> I should maybe have made that clearer in my initial email but I'm acting
> here as a member of the OSMF's data working group in response to a
> legitimate complaint, not as a German mapper seeking trouble. I
> sincerely ask everyone involved to keep calm and let the revert complete
> cleanly.
>
> I see that user LogicalViolinist has already found fields of endeavour
> outside of Canada for the time being.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Stewart C. Russell]

On 2016-10-19 02:31 AM, Denis Carriere wrote:
> 
> *Quick survey: *Who is even opposed to a Building Import in Ottawa

I'm opposed to the word “opposed”, as good imports done properly do add
value to the map. But this import wasn't done right, so I can't support
the method.

More later.
 Stewart

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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Michael Reichert]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi Denis, hi Rps333, hi LogicalViolinist [3]

Am 19.10.2016 um 08:31 schrieb Denis Carriere:
> Ok this Ottawa reverting process is getting out of hand now!
> Frederik (woodpeck_repair) is reverting entire user history without
> looking at what his osm-revert-script is doing.
> 
> *Before & After of Revert - More info with photos* 
> https://gist.github.com/DenisCarriere/581b3dbc6adf36608f470702d0bcc38d
>
>  This all started because a "building:level" tag was removed by
> accident in Stittsville, it happens, don't cry over it.
> 
> As for "lack of discussion" we've been planning this for months and
> invited all the local mappers to events & we've also got the
> license agreement from the City of Ottawa.
> 
> So why are you reverting possibly hundreds of hours of work done by
> the local OSM Ottawa group?
> 
> If you're only concern is documentation and workflows, then we can
> easily provide it, no need for an emergency revert of entire users 
> histories (LogicalViolinist, Rps333, DenisCarriere) all of them are
> very active contributors.

I have the impression that we are talking to a brick wall. As people
have pointed out on this mailing list for the last days, your import
lacks nearly everything which is required by the guideline. Please
read the postings of the other people on this mailing list carefully.

Additionally, I hereby ask you, DenisCarriere, Rps333 and
LogicalViolinist not to upload any buildings or addresses, modifying
or deleting them before the full revert is completed. Don't try to
start or continue any edit wars [1,2]! Don't restart the import just
after the revert has been finished. Do everything which is required by
the guideline. [4] I hope we do not need a fifth user block within
three days to enforce these rules. :-(

Best regards

Michael



[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42988442
[2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1067
[3] email address unknown
[4] You have to wait about two to three weeks between asking on a
mailing list for approval and starting the import.


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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Denis Carriere]

Ok this Ottawa reverting process is getting out of hand now! Frederik
(woodpeck_repair) is reverting entire user history without looking at what
his osm-revert-script is doing.

*Before & After of Revert - More info with photos*
https://gist.github.com/DenisCarriere/581b3dbc6adf36608f470702d0bcc38d

This all started because a "building:level" tag was removed by accident in
Stittsville, it happens, don't cry over it.

As for "lack of discussion" we've been planning this for months and invited
all the local mappers to events & we've also got the license agreement from
the City of Ottawa.

So why are you reverting possibly hundreds of hours of work done by the
local OSM Ottawa group?

If you're only concern is documentation and workflows, then we can easily
provide it, no need for an emergency revert of entire users
histories (LogicalViolinist, Rps333, DenisCarriere) all of them are very
active contributors.

I understand the need of a revert if we are breaking a legal agreement for
data that isn't compatible with the OSM license, but this isn't the case.
We've sent dozens of emails to Talk-CA and the only people interested in
the project was our group, next time people should be more involved in
local Canadian open data effort from our government (StatsCan in
particular).

The data in Ottawa is pitiful compared to other parts of the world, I'm
frankly embarrassed when I look at our OSM maps. We finally have a project
that promotes the use of open data provided by the City of Ottawa and we
have a dedicated group that is willing to put all the hard work to improve
the map in Ottawa, and now weeks of hard work is being totally reverted by
a command line script from @woodpeck_repair.

*Quick survey: *Who is even opposed to a Building Import in Ottawa (rural
areas is a big concern)? If no one is, Frederick can you please stop your
revert process and we can continue working on adding the buildings to
Ottawa. We're all very talented mappers and we can fix our mistakes, we
don't need a full user history revert.

Don't hesitate to reply, we're welcoming comments and concerns.

Thanks,

*~~*
*Denis Carriere*
*GIS Software & Systems Specialist*

*Twitter: @DenisCarriere *
*OSM: DenisCarriere *
GitHub: DenisCarriere 
Email: carriere.de...@gmail.com

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:53 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 10/17/2016 11:59 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> > The person responsible for cleaning up a poor revert should be the
> > person who ran it ;) it's only 30% complete and will run far into the
> > night in my time zone and I'll have to check on it after getting up. I'm
> > confident all will be fixed when you get up tomorrow morning.
>
> Unfortunately the import was larger than expected and the revert drags
> on. Meanwhile, a couple of accounts have been newly created by parties
> unknown ("addxy_imports", "ottawa_import") and these have (accidentally
> or purposefully) interfered with the revert, meaning that it will take
> even longer for me do this right.
>
> I would like to appeal to all involved parties to show some maturity.
> The import was in clear violation of established processes; it must be
> reverted, and then the community can - calmly and without any time
> pressure - decide what they want to do with the data.
>
> I haven't analysed the import in depth but I have seen a couple of
> examples where a perfectly well mapped building was wiped clean and
> replaced with one that was not at all better - this is clearly something
> we don't want to see in an import, it is a technical (or procedural)
> shortcoming that would definitely have been pointed out had there been a
> proper discussion beforehand.
>
> The requirement to talk about imports before you act is not an
> unnecessary bueraucratic hurdle; it is intended to avoid disappointment
> on all sides. An import that fears the broad daylight is probably one
> that should not be attempted at all!
>
> I should maybe have made that clearer in my initial email but I'm acting
> here as a member of the OSMF's data working group in response to a
> legitimate complaint, not as a German mapper seeking trouble. I
> sincerely ask everyone involved to keep calm and let the revert complete
> cleanly.
>
> I see that user LogicalViolinist has already found fields of endeavour
> outside of Canada for the time being.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[john whelan]

I think it has been mentioned that unfortunately a number of buildings in
Ottawa that were deleted already have some of the attributes that Stats
Canada are after.

I think step one is hands off any mapping of buildings for the moment in
Ottawa.  That unfortunately includes Stats crowd sourcing initiative until
the reverts are done.


*​Note to Bjenk ​can you put a sorry out of service notice up or something?*

​Note to Frederick can you let us know when they can continue?​

Step two will be restart the Stats Canada web site and data collection.

Step three will be for someone to communicate with the import forum
​etc ​
as per the wiki.  I think all our ducks and processes are lined up its just
a matter of explaining them.

Finally then I think restart the import process but very slowly and with
more care.

Stats Canada can work without the building import but there is
​adanger that new inexperienced mappers drawing building outlines in iD
will produce the sort of results both Pierre and I have seen in HOT and I
think that is to be avoided if at all possible.

Thanks for the update Frederick.

Cheerio John

On 18 Oct 2016 1:54 pm, "Frederik Ramm"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 10/17/2016 11:59 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> > The person responsible for cleaning up a poor revert should be the
> > person who ran it ;) it's only 30% complete and will run far into the
> > night in my time zone and I'll have to check on it after getting up. I'm
> > confident all will be fixed when you get up tomorrow morning.
>
> Unfortunately the import was larger than expected and the revert drags
> on. Meanwhile, a couple of accounts have been newly created by parties
> unknown ("addxy_imports", "ottawa_import") and these have (accidentally
> or purposefully) interfered with the revert, meaning that it will take
> even longer for me do this right.
>
> I would like to appeal to all involved parties to show some maturity.
> The import was in clear violation of established processes; it must be
> reverted, and then the community can - calmly and without any time
> pressure - decide what they want to do with the data.
>
> I haven't analysed the import in depth but I have seen a couple of
> examples where a perfectly well mapped building was wiped clean and
> replaced with one that was not at all better - this is clearly something
> we don't want to see in an import, it is a technical (or procedural)
> shortcoming that would definitely have been pointed out had there been a
> proper discussion beforehand.
>
> The requirement to talk about imports before you act is not an
> unnecessary bueraucratic hurdle; it is intended to avoid disappointment
> on all sides. An import that fears the broad daylight is probably one
> that should not be attempted at all!
>
> I should maybe have made that clearer in my initial email but I'm acting
> here as a member of the OSMF's data working group in response to a
> legitimate complaint, not as a German mapper seeking trouble. I
> sincerely ask everyone involved to keep calm and let the revert complete
> cleanly.
>
> I see that user LogicalViolinist has already found fields of endeavour
> outside of Canada for the time being.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Frederik Ramm]

Denis,

On 10/17/2016 11:43 PM, Denis Carriere wrote:
> At least this will be fixed... can you please make sure that this revert
> is at least finished properly without thousands of warnings. I don't
> want to be cleaning up a poor revert for days.

The person responsible for cleaning up a poor revert should be the
person who ran it ;) it's only 30% complete and will run far into the
night in my time zone and I'll have to check on it after getting up. I'm
confident all will be fixed when you get up tomorrow morning.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Pierre Béland]

James
Dans JOSM la fonction Remplacer la géométrie permet de retracer rapidement et 
de conserver l'historique
Installer UtilsPlugin2 d'abord je crois.

1. Raccourci B (building) je trace l'immeuble 2. Je clique sur ancienne 
version, ctrl+clic nouvelle version de l'immeuble
3. Raccourci Ctrl-Maj-G (ou Menu Plus d'outils / Remplacer la géométrie) pour 
Remplacer la géométrie.
  
Pierre 


  De : James <james2...@gmail.com>
 À : Stewart C. Russell <scr...@gmail.com> 
Cc : Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <talk-ca@openstreetmap.org>
 Envoyé le : lundi 17 octobre 2016 17h07
 Objet : Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses
   
>From Rps333 in changeset http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42876740:

This is part of the Stats Canada Open data project. And has been discussed on 
Talk:ca It has received OSM Ottawa community approval. OSM Ottawa has been 
planning on adding the build for 3 months now. We have a dedicated Task sever. 
FYI, every building I added, I have tried to confirm with Bing imagery if it 
makes sense. If there was a build there pick the best outline City of Ottawa or 
Bing/ NRCan data.

I have also tried to move the address points to inside the building.

Ref the missing building levels. I copied the new outline to the school 
multipolygon and must have missed coping the building level.

My mistake.

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Stewart C. Russell <scr...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 2016-10-17 03:33 PM, James wrote:
> Stewart, that's where you are wrong. Ottawa has supplied data(footprints
> and address) to Stats Can to import into OSM for their project under the
> Canada Open Gov License so there would be no issues with licensing.
>
> We are using that data.

You have not confirmed to this list here that the third-party clearance
requirement of the data has been met. This is required for any OGL data:
https://lists.openstreetmap. org/pipermail/talk-ca/2013- November/005906.html

You are not doing this as part of the Stats Canada import, as no go
ahead, discussion or agreement has been made here. Where is the Stats
Canada Ottawa data published, please?

You are doing these imports under your own user names. You *know* that
this is against the guidelines. You've received two blocks already.
Please stop.

 Stewart



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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Michael Reichert]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi Denis,

Am 17.10.2016 um 23:22 schrieb Denis Carriere:
> *(Frederik Ramm) *just did a mass revert [0] with his revert script
> [1] created in 2009 and now we have 20,000+ warnings of empty nodes
> within a small section of Ottawa [2].
> 
> Not only did *(Frederik Ramm) *undo James commits, but now you've 
> introduced over 100,000+ warnings scattered across Ottawa which is
> near impossible to fix unless we revert the revert.
> 
> If you're going to undo someone's commits, at least do it right and
> not corrupt the OSM data for the Ottawa community.
> 
> Please remove all of the empty nodes you've just created from your
> poor revert, have you even looked at what you reverted??

The revert has not been finished yet (the changeset is still open) and
its necessary first to delete all created relations, then all created
ways and, as a last step, all created nodes.

It is a usual effect that reverting huge bulk uploads takes hours.

Best regards

Michael



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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[James]

You'd think someone working on the DWG would know how to revert a changeset
properly. This is even worse than when there were a few duplicated
addresses.

On Oct 17, 2016 5:23 PM, "Denis Carriere"  wrote:

> Ok now things are even worse!
>
> *(Frederik Ramm) *just did a mass revert [0] with his revert script [1]
> created in 2009 and now we have 20,000+ warnings of empty nodes within a
> small section of Ottawa [2].
>
> Not only did *(Frederik Ramm) *undo James commits, but now you've
> introduced over 100,000+ warnings scattered across Ottawa which is near
> impossible to fix unless we revert the revert.
>
> If you're going to undo someone's commits, at least do it right and not
> corrupt the OSM data for the Ottawa community.
>
> Please remove all of the empty nodes you've just created from your poor
> revert, have you even looked at what you reverted??
>
> [0]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42964959
> [1]: https://github.com/woodpeck/osm-revert-scripts
> [2]: http://127.0.0.1:8111/load_and_zoom?left=-75.67383=
> 45.36758=-75.65186=45.38302
>
> *~~*
> *Denis Carriere*
> *GIS Software & Systems Specialist*
>
> *Twitter: @DenisCarriere *
> *OSM: DenisCarriere *
> GitHub: DenisCarriere 
> Email: carriere.de...@gmail.com
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Frederik Ramm 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 10/17/2016 07:49 PM, AJ Ashton wrote:
>> > All of this sounds like they were planning one something like an online
>> > mapping party, not an import of government data. Certainly there is no
>> > mention that all existing buildings in Ottawa would be wiped out first.
>>
>> Which is why I'm reverting this import (and the deletions that went with
>> it) now. Not because we shouldn't ever import the data, but because I
>> don't want a fait accompli to stand in the way of a serious discussion
>> about the matter.
>>
>> Bye
>> Frederik
>>
>> --
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>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Denis Carriere]

Ok now things are even worse!

*(Frederik Ramm) *just did a mass revert [0] with his revert script [1]
created in 2009 and now we have 20,000+ warnings of empty nodes within a
small section of Ottawa [2].

Not only did *(Frederik Ramm) *undo James commits, but now you've
introduced over 100,000+ warnings scattered across Ottawa which is near
impossible to fix unless we revert the revert.

If you're going to undo someone's commits, at least do it right and not
corrupt the OSM data for the Ottawa community.

Please remove all of the empty nodes you've just created from your poor
revert, have you even looked at what you reverted??

[0]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42964959
[1]: https://github.com/woodpeck/osm-revert-scripts
[2]: http://127.0.0.1:8111/load_and_zoom?left=-75.67383;
bottom=45.36758=-75.65186=45.38302

*~~*
*Denis Carriere*
*GIS Software & Systems Specialist*

*Twitter: @DenisCarriere *
*OSM: DenisCarriere *
GitHub: DenisCarriere 
Email: carriere.de...@gmail.com

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 10/17/2016 07:49 PM, AJ Ashton wrote:
> > All of this sounds like they were planning one something like an online
> > mapping party, not an import of government data. Certainly there is no
> > mention that all existing buildings in Ottawa would be wiped out first.
>
> Which is why I'm reverting this import (and the deletions that went with
> it) now. Not because we shouldn't ever import the data, but because I
> don't want a fait accompli to stand in the way of a serious discussion
> about the matter.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[James]

>From Rps333 in changeset http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42876740:

This is part of the Stats Canada Open data project. And has been discussed
on Talk:ca It has received OSM Ottawa community approval. OSM Ottawa has
been planning on adding the build for 3 months now. We have a dedicated
Task sever. FYI, every building I added, I have tried to confirm with Bing
imagery if it makes sense. If there was a build there pick the best outline
City of Ottawa or Bing/ NRCan data.

I have also tried to move the address points to inside the building.

Ref the missing building levels. I copied the new outline to the school
multipolygon and must have missed coping the building level.

My mistake.

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Stewart C. Russell 
wrote:

> On 2016-10-17 03:33 PM, James wrote:
> > Stewart, that's where you are wrong. Ottawa has supplied data(footprints
> > and address) to Stats Can to import into OSM for their project under the
> > Canada Open Gov License so there would be no issues with licensing.
> >
> > We are using that data.
>
> You have not confirmed to this list here that the third-party clearance
> requirement of the data has been met. This is required for any OGL data:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2013-
> November/005906.html
>
> You are not doing this as part of the Stats Canada import, as no go
> ahead, discussion or agreement has been made here. Where is the Stats
> Canada Ottawa data published, please?
>
> You are doing these imports under your own user names. You *know* that
> this is against the guidelines. You've received two blocks already.
> Please stop.
>
>  Stewart
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Stewart C. Russell]

On 2016-10-17 03:33 PM, James wrote:
> Stewart, that's where you are wrong. Ottawa has supplied data(footprints
> and address) to Stats Can to import into OSM for their project under the
> Canada Open Gov License so there would be no issues with licensing.
> 
> We are using that data.

You have not confirmed to this list here that the third-party clearance
requirement of the data has been met. This is required for any OGL data:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2013-November/005906.html

You are not doing this as part of the Stats Canada import, as no go
ahead, discussion or agreement has been made here. Where is the Stats
Canada Ottawa data published, please?

You are doing these imports under your own user names. You *know* that
this is against the guidelines. You've received two blocks already.
Please stop.

 Stewart



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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[James]

Stewart, that's where you are wrong. Ottawa has supplied data(footprints
and address) to Stats Can to import into OSM for their project under the
Canada Open Gov License so there would be no issues with licensing.

We are using that data.

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Stewart C. Russell 
wrote:

> Hi Frederik,
>
> > Which is why I'm reverting this import (and the deletions that went with
> > it) now. Not because we shouldn't ever import the data, but because I
> > don't want a fait accompli to stand in the way of a serious discussion
> > about the matter.
>
> There are a *lot* more import changesets by Jamie, aka LogicalViolinist.
> All of them seem to be importing City of Ottawa open data. This is
> separate from any collaboration with Statistics Canada, as it does not
> include the fields that they require. We're still not clear that the
> city's building and address data meets the third party clearance
> requirement that OGL creates.
>
> There also a mismatch between Ottawa buildings and address points. If
> you look around here - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/446215268 -
> there are duplicated address nodes, and some outside building outlines.
>
> I also have my suspicions that changesets such as 42788839 -
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42788839 (not by
> LogicalViolinist, either) are imports. Identical changeset comments to
> LogicalViolinist's import ones, and address nodes with source=Bing? Hmm.
>
> Please, if folks are going to import stuff, play by the rules. Every bad
> import makes the possibility of good imports much harder.
>
> cheers,
>  Stewart
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Stewart C. Russell]

Hi Frederik,

> Which is why I'm reverting this import (and the deletions that went with
> it) now. Not because we shouldn't ever import the data, but because I
> don't want a fait accompli to stand in the way of a serious discussion
> about the matter.

There are a *lot* more import changesets by Jamie, aka LogicalViolinist.
All of them seem to be importing City of Ottawa open data. This is
separate from any collaboration with Statistics Canada, as it does not
include the fields that they require. We're still not clear that the
city's building and address data meets the third party clearance
requirement that OGL creates.

There also a mismatch between Ottawa buildings and address points. If
you look around here - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/446215268 -
there are duplicated address nodes, and some outside building outlines.

I also have my suspicions that changesets such as 42788839 -
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42788839 (not by
LogicalViolinist, either) are imports. Identical changeset comments to
LogicalViolinist's import ones, and address nodes with source=Bing? Hmm.

Please, if folks are going to import stuff, play by the rules. Every bad
import makes the possibility of good imports much harder.

cheers,
 Stewart



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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Michael Reichert]

Hi,

Am 17.10.2016 um 19:20 schrieb Michael Reichert:
> I have asked a DWG member to block him to stop the ongoing import and
> start a discussion.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1065

The second user block (now for three hours):
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1066

reason: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42965430 and similar
changesets

Best regards

Michael

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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 10/17/2016 07:49 PM, AJ Ashton wrote:
> All of this sounds like they were planning one something like an online
> mapping party, not an import of government data. Certainly there is no
> mention that all existing buildings in Ottawa would be wiped out first.

Which is why I'm reverting this import (and the deletions that went with
it) now. Not because we shouldn't ever import the data, but because I
don't want a fait accompli to stand in the way of a serious discussion
about the matter.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Michael Reichert]

Hi James,

Am 17.10.2016 um 19:37 schrieb James:
> Like this one Kevin?
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-July/007034.html
> 
> or this one?
> https://www.mail-archive.com/talk-ca@openstreetmap.org/msg07024.html
> 
> or this one?
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-August/007151.html
> 
> or this one?
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-August/007068.html
> 
> Tired of googling, but it's the ones I found in a couple of seconds

I have been subscribed to this mailing list for about two months and saw
that there was a discussion on this mailing list but I cannot find a
discussion on *Imports* mailing list.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines#Discuss_your_proposed_import
says
> Discuss your import on the impo...@openstreetmap.org mailing list and
> with appropriate local communities.

That's not the only reason why this import is bad. See my other posting
for all the other reasons.

Best regards

Michael


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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Kevin Farrugia]

Yup, those ones James. Sorry, I'm in something right now so I can't Google.
:P

On Oct 17, 2016 1:37 PM, "James"  wrote:

> Like this one Kevin?
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-July/007034.html
>
> or this one?
> https://www.mail-archive.com/talk-ca@openstreetmap.org/msg07024.html
>
> or this one?
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-August/007151.html
>
> or this one?
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-August/007068.html
>
> Tired of googling, but it's the ones I found in a couple of seconds
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Kevin Farrugia 
> wrote:
>
>> Afternoon,
>>
>> I'm not part of the import, but it's been discussed over the past several
>> months as a project by Statistics Canada. You'll be able to see the
>> discussions start in the summer. I'm on my phone right now so I haven't
>> pulled up the archive to look for links (sorry).
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2016 1:22 PM, "Michael Reichert"  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi AJ,
>>>
>>> Am 17.10.2016 um 18:59 schrieb AJ Ashton:
>>> > I haven't seen any substantial discussion about the Ottawa buildings &
>>> > addresses import anywhere. I did see the thread a number of weeks back,
>>> > "Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada," but I didn't see
>>> > anything discussed that sounds like the planning of a mass import. The
>>> > wiki page linked from the discussion [0] is completely empty. From a
>>> > changeset discussion I was pointed to another section of the wiki [2]
>>> > which again has few details and does not sound like an import
>>> > ("...inviting contributors to crowdsource information on buildings").
>>> >
>>> > [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ottawa_Gatineau_Buildings
>>> > [2]:
>>> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada#Crowds
>>> ourcing_buildings_with_Statistics_Canada
>>>
>>> Thank you for highlighting it.
>>>
>>> In addition to the lacking documentation, LogicalViolinist neither uses
>>> a dedicated account nor the import has been discussed at the Imports
>>> mailing list (I had a look at the subjects of the last six months). He
>>> has been informed about the Import Guideline on August 29, 2016.
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41776742
>>>
>>> I have asked a DWG member to block him to stop the ongoing import and
>>> start a discussion.
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1065
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[James]

Like this one Kevin?
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-July/007034.html

or this one?
https://www.mail-archive.com/talk-ca@openstreetmap.org/msg07024.html

or this one?
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-August/007151.html

or this one?
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-August/007068.html

Tired of googling, but it's the ones I found in a couple of seconds

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Kevin Farrugia 
wrote:

> Afternoon,
>
> I'm not part of the import, but it's been discussed over the past several
> months as a project by Statistics Canada. You'll be able to see the
> discussions start in the summer. I'm on my phone right now so I haven't
> pulled up the archive to look for links (sorry).
>
> On Oct 17, 2016 1:22 PM, "Michael Reichert"  wrote:
>
>> Hi AJ,
>>
>> Am 17.10.2016 um 18:59 schrieb AJ Ashton:
>> > I haven't seen any substantial discussion about the Ottawa buildings &
>> > addresses import anywhere. I did see the thread a number of weeks back,
>> > "Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada," but I didn't see
>> > anything discussed that sounds like the planning of a mass import. The
>> > wiki page linked from the discussion [0] is completely empty. From a
>> > changeset discussion I was pointed to another section of the wiki [2]
>> > which again has few details and does not sound like an import
>> > ("...inviting contributors to crowdsource information on buildings").
>> >
>> > [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ottawa_Gatineau_Buildings
>> > [2]:
>> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada#Crowds
>> ourcing_buildings_with_Statistics_Canada
>>
>> Thank you for highlighting it.
>>
>> In addition to the lacking documentation, LogicalViolinist neither uses
>> a dedicated account nor the import has been discussed at the Imports
>> mailing list (I had a look at the subjects of the last six months). He
>> has been informed about the Import Guideline on August 29, 2016.
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41776742
>>
>> I have asked a DWG member to block him to stop the ongoing import and
>> start a discussion.
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1065
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> ausgenommen)
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>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Michael Reichert]

Hi AJ,

Am 17.10.2016 um 18:59 schrieb AJ Ashton:
> I haven't seen any substantial discussion about the Ottawa buildings &
> addresses import anywhere. I did see the thread a number of weeks back,
> "Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada," but I didn't see
> anything discussed that sounds like the planning of a mass import. The
> wiki page linked from the discussion [0] is completely empty. From a
> changeset discussion I was pointed to another section of the wiki [2]
> which again has few details and does not sound like an import
> ("...inviting contributors to crowdsource information on buildings").
> 
> [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ottawa_Gatineau_Buildings
> [2]:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada#Crowdsourcing_buildings_with_Statistics_Canada

Thank you for highlighting it.

In addition to the lacking documentation, LogicalViolinist neither uses
a dedicated account nor the import has been discussed at the Imports
mailing list (I had a look at the subjects of the last six months). He
has been informed about the Import Guideline on August 29, 2016.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41776742

I have asked a DWG member to block him to stop the ongoing import and
start a discussion.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1065

Best regards

Michael





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[Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[AJ Ashton]

I haven't seen any substantial discussion about the Ottawa buildings &
addresses import anywhere. I did see the thread a number of weeks back,
"Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada," but I didn't see
anything discussed that sounds like the planning of a mass import. The
wiki page linked from the discussion [0] is completely empty. From a
changeset discussion I was pointed to another section of the wiki [2]
which again has few details and does not sound like an import
("...inviting contributors to crowdsource information on buildings").

[1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ottawa_Gatineau_Buildings
[2]:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada#Crowdsourcing_buildings_with_Statistics_Canada

What has actually happened is most (or all?) of the existing buildings
in Ottawa were deleted, and then replaced by imported data. For example
changeset 42699159 [3] deleted hundreds of buildings and addresses I had
mapped in my former home of Stittsville. Changeset 42699460 [4] replaced
everything with City of Ottawa data.

[3]: https://osmcha.mapbox.com/42699159/
[4]: https://osmcha.mapbox.com/42699460/

The quality of the imported shapes seems fine and I have nothing against
building imports in principle. I just wish existing data could have been
updated or left alone - I don't see a substantial difference between
what I had traced from Bing and the import except for an offset of
perhaps a few meters. Although I saw someone noted on IRC that in
several cases existing properties such as building:levels tags were
lost; this is more concerning.

In addition to building footprints, addresses are also being imported.
This data is a little more problematic and the importers seem to be
taking a "import now, fix later" approach. Example: changeset 42633517
[5] added over 20 thousand address nodes that were clearly not
quality-checked. Addresses are being imported as points when they could
be attached to buildings, and sometimes address points are doubled,
tripled, or even quadrupled [6].

[5]: https://osmcha.mapbox.com/42633517/
[6]: Eg this area:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.26652/-75.93753

Could the organizers of this import point me to any further mailing list
discussions or wiki pages I might have missed? Can we talk about why the
clearcut approach to existing data was taken, and why the address data
was not cleaned up *before* import?

(The changesets I linked to may make it look like I am specifically
calling out user LogicalViolinist, but the import was a group effort by
a number of users. LogicalViolinist just happens to have covered the
part of Ottawa I am most familiar with.)

-- 
  AJ Ashton
  a...@ajashton.ca

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