Re: [Talk-de] Update of german Aral petrol stations [2]
Looks like good work. Thank you. Are there any Marine or Aviation fuelling stations in this dataset? ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] German translation assist: wiki
Would someone be willing to update: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:amenity%3Dbicycle_repair_station With a good translation for: *A shop that offers bicycle repair should be tagged as a shop. This tag is intended for standalone repair stations which are typically located outside and open 24/7. Please see Tag:shop=bicycle. Please do not tag shops with this tag!* And perhaps also for: *The manufacturer of the station, if it is a standard design (e.g. Dero or Bike Fixstation, or RepairSTAN). For a list of vendors see this guide http://guides.obviously.com/Public-Bicycle-Work-and-Repair-Stands-2/1925.* -- Unfortunately this tag is getting used for things that are not unattended tool stands. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Brunnen : Check tagging near Hannover?
On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Rolf Eike Beer e...@sf-mail.de wrote: The proper tagging would probably be something like: man_made=water_well drinking_water=yes But, those would show up on the hiking map, which is equally wrong. Taginfo shows use of: pumping_station=water or man_made=pumping_station or waterway=pumping_station (some of which are sewage pumpouts for boats, e.g. waterway=sanitary_dump_station). ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Brunnen : Check tagging near Hannover?
waterway=water_point is defined as a place to fill fresh water holding tanks. There are several marked as Brunnen near Hannover. Could someone check that tagging? http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/9cX ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Updating motorhome dump station tagging (English)
On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: Apologies for using English on the German list. I would like to seek additional voices on moving German motorhome sewage tagging from: amenity=waste_disposal name=Aire de services camping-car waste_disposal:chemical_toilet=yes waste_disposal:grey_water=yes To: amenity=sanitary_dump_station name=Aire de services camping-car This tagging is now complete in Germany. No information was removed (*chemical_toilet* became *black_water*+ *tank_chemicals*). Other mappers are planning to add the type of connection. Another mapper with the Seamark project will be working on German marina nodes. No biological dump stations were found. 3) There is separate tagging for marine facilities for boats, as it is improper to direct a motorhome driver to use a marine-only facility. sounds reasonable I used waterway=sanitary_dump_station for these. waterway=pump-out and seamark:small_craft_facility:category=pump-out http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:seamark:small_craft_facility:category%3Dpump-out are also in use. Dieser Tag beschreibt einen Ort an dem Sanitärabfälle, die in Tanks gesammelt wurden, entsorgt werden können. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:amenity%3Dsanitary_dump_station ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Updating motorhome dump station tagging (English)
Gmbo; The people who map waterways disagree, and feel that a single tag for marine and land facilities is unwise. I agree: These features are different, and it is not possible to determine which is which by position alone. We do not want a person using OSMand to type in dump station and be directed to a Marine pumpout. Regardless, the land stations seem ready for tagging. The scheme is much more unified than before, even if it is not as unified as you hoped. --- There are people already complaining about how many tags the new scheme takes. Adding yet more will not help. Lets keep it simple. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Updating motorhome dump station tagging (English)
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 2:19 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-04-22 19:52 GMT+02:00 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: There are in fact grey water *only* stations. Separately, a common tent camping feature is a dish washing station designed to keep campers from dumping dishwater on the ground. That's essentially the same feature: a place to dispose relatively clean water (no chemicals, no sewage, no bilge residue). yes, but would you consider these sanitary_dump_stations? No, and the text of the proposal excluded them. amenity=waste_disposal/waste=grey_water would do fine. - The basic styles of sanitary station are: - elsan point (walk up dumping) - round drain (gravity drain hose) - pump-out (mechanical suction). Accepting - Gray water (usually) - Bilge water (rarely) - Black water (usually) - Black water but not gray water (occasionally Prohibiting - certain tank chemicals Access Rules - From water or land, or rarely both - Free, paid in advance, pay at the pump, or pay at the office. Part of a network or not. - Accessible to overnight guests only, or to everyone. - Located on a dock next to waterway=fuel (often) Marine be on the shore: a proximity search to water does distinguish the intended users. - Are there issues with the basic tagging preventing moving forward in Germany? ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Updating motorhome dump station tagging (English)
On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-04-21 21:20 GMT+02:00 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: amenity=waste_disposal name=Aire de services camping-car waste_disposal:chemical_toilet=yes waste_disposal:grey_water=yes To: amenity=sanitary_dump_station name=Aire de services camping-car Why would we remove the tags waste_disposal:chemical_toilet=yes waste_disposal:grey_water=yes It's not about removing tags, rather about simplifying the tagging scheme so that every tag has a clear meaning, and the greatest chance of getting tagged correctly around the world. It's also about reaching the type of numbers, with a top level tag, that will attract the interest of the osm-carto maintainers ( https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1466 ). I would certainly welcome and help promote some version of: *waste_allowed=black_water;tank_chemicals;grey_water;bilge_water;radiator_flushings* But waste_disposal:chemical_toilet=yes has already lead to significant confusion between cassette stations and walk up toilets, and between the type of connection point and the type of waste. A chemical_toilet has a specific connotation in the USA that's not this feature. And while we're at it excrement is impolite in USA English and not an alternative.All the UK tags are unclear because of this exact confusion: it's not possible to work out what's on the ground without visiting the site again. All 65 current continental European examples are the simple case and don't even need additional subtags. *Note: *To use a dump station I need several things: *my vehicle needs to fit, my vehicle needs to be of the allowed type, my connection needs to be compatible, the waste I have needs to be acceptable, I need to be allowed (e.g. be an overnight guest), and I might need to pay. * The tagging wants to get all that done in a manner that's clear over multiple languages. Keep in mind there are already French, German and Russian translations of the current scheme: this is a worldwide feature. Regarding grey water I am not sure if tagging makes sense. Does grey water really need dedicated stations for disposal? In doubt I'd keep the tag. There are in fact grey water *only* stations. Separately, a common tent camping feature is a dish washing station designed to keep campers from dumping dishwater on the ground. That's essentially the same feature: a place to dispose relatively clean water (no chemicals, no sewage, no bilge residue). -- Note that: 1) All presently mapped German stations are tagged as accepting both grey_water and sewage, and no site is mapped with chemical restrictions. but it was mentioned by Gmbo that not all sites that exist do accept chemical toilet waste. Yes, that's something I pointed out to Gmbo early on. The Gmbo scheme assumes the choice is binary: either chemical additives are allowed or not, and that the restriction may not even be visible at the site. The reality is more complex. Some sites operate off a septic field and allow some chemicals and not others. I see this as far beyond the scope of OSM to try and tag. Thus some form of: *sanitary_dump_station:chemical_restrictions=inquire_locally* Is proposed. To assume people will tag chemicals_allowed=yes on the tens of thousands of normal facilities is unrealistic, just like asking people to tag unremarkable trees with denotation=cluster was unrealistic. Tag the exception, not the rule. 2) German mapper Gmbo has designed a tagging scheme for describing stations in more detail: receptor type, height of the drain, chemical restrictions, grey water only facilities. Those tags can be added to the above, by a mapper who knows the local area and station types. No information will be lost. +1 3) There is separate tagging for marine facilities for boats, as it is improper to direct a motorhome driver to use a marine-only facility. sounds reasonable ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Updating motorhome dump station tagging (English)
On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Regarding grey water I am not sure if tagging makes sense. Does grey water really need dedicated stations for disposal? In doubt I'd keep the tag. Here's a case where grey water is prohibited: http://www.longbeach.gov/park/marine/alamitos_bay.asp ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Updating motorhome dump station tagging (English)
Apologies for using English on the German list. I would like to seek additional voices on moving German motorhome sewage tagging from: amenity=waste_disposal name=Aire de services camping-car waste_disposal:chemical_toilet=yes waste_disposal:grey_water=yes To: amenity=sanitary_dump_station name=Aire de services camping-car -- Note that: 1) All presently mapped German stations are tagged as accepting both grey_water and sewage, and no site is mapped with chemical restrictions. 2) German mapper Gmbo has designed a tagging scheme for describing stations in more detail: receptor type, height of the drain, chemical restrictions, grey water only facilities. Those tags can be added to the above, by a mapper who knows the local area and station types. No information will be lost. 3) There is separate tagging for marine facilities for boats, as it is improper to direct a motorhome driver to use a marine-only facility. 4) The waste_disposal:chemical_toilet tagging appears only in Europe: the USA/Mexico/Canada and Australia/New Zealand use the amenity=sanitary_dump_station style now. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] neuer Key für Entsorgungsstationen sanitary_dumping _station.
You can also see how others are tagging Sanitary Dumps: http://www.sanidumps.com/maps/index.php?id=18 --- The top level tags sanitary_dump_station are enough for rendering. However someone with a given style of boat or motorhome can use use only some of the sites. They may have boat holding tank needing a pumpout, a boat or motorhome with a cassette, or a motorhome with a gravity fed hose. These are incompatible systems. A given site may accept one, two or three of the systems. A given site may restrict or even ban tank holding chemicals, but these rules are complex and hard to tag. I prefer just a warning that a given site may have a restriction that needs to be checked locally. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] neuer Key für Entsorgungsstationen sanitary_dumping _station.
Auf English: The language barrier has been high here: help from someone fluent in both German and English is needed Each new proposal page so far has brought more confusion. -- In the USA/Canada/Mexico there are three main connection types for dumping a toilet holding tank: - Suction pump-outs for boats - A 3 inch round drain hose for grey and blackwater from mobile home holding tanks - A flush basin for dumping portable wheeled cassette holding tanks. In the UK the last item is sometimes called an Elsan Point. Often, a washing hose is available. Rarely, a septic leach field is in use and there are various restrictions on the type of chemical used in the holding tank. Worldwide, tags used for this feature have included: amenity=dumpstation, amenity=sanitary_station, amenity=pumpout, amenity=pump-out and amenity=pump out along with amenity=dump station, amenity=dump, and amenity=RV dump, amenity=recycling,waste=excrement, and finally tourism=caravan_site,note=RV Dump. Current tags in Germany include waste=excrement, recycling:excrement=yes, and waterway=pump_out, along with seamark:small_craft_facility:category=pump-out;other For UK canals it is tagged as follows: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_Kingdom_Waterways#Further_tagging_information --- This feature is not rendered on any map I have found, at least in part because of the severe fragmentation of the tagging styles. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [Talk-us] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:50 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I don't see a problem with access=private as this could be handy for micromapping a property. access=public should probably be access=yes. The tagging proposal to date imagined only the shared dump stations of the type that would (in years past) have appeared on AAA maps. If it's to be used for backyard or per-site hookups, the proposal needs adjustment. --- Mapping a hookup in someone's backyard offers* the same pitfalls as mapping their home toilet and recycling bin.* The next level of private is guests only, which I called destination. *The cases seem to be:* per-site hookup, available only to registered guests at the particular site shared dump station, available only to guests of the destination shared dump station, available for drive up shared dump station, free *Tagged as:* Way/node or As a tagged property of a mapped place (e.g. campground, store, fuel station), without a specific position. As a tagged property of a numbered camp slot (e.g. sites 1-22 offer per-site hookups). A caravan site might have 200 private hookups. We don't want the hookups to be rendered at the same level as the central dump station. Backyard dump stations should render even less prominently, if they are even mapped at all. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [Talk-us] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:20 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: A caravan site might have 200 private hookups. We don't want the hookups to be rendered at the same level as the central dump station. Backyard dump stations should render even less prominently, if they are even mapped at all. Let's not forget that tagging isn't the renderer. If a renderer can't dim or hide access=private on such a POI when it's not desirable to display a private sanidump, it's the renderer, not the tagging, that's broken. Let's not forget that humans are mappers. The shared sanidump at the local caravan site might well get tagged access=private. Or maybe access=private will be used for the per site hookups. *The cases seem to be:* private backyard dump stations. per-site hookup, available only to registered residents (at a long term residential trailer park or dock). per-site hookup, available only to registered guests at a leisure destination shared dump station, available only to guests of the destination shared dump station, available for drive up/boat up use. shared dump station, free. *Tagged on:* Way/node As a tagged property of a mapped place (e.g. campground, store, fuel station), without a specific position. As a tagged property of a numbered slot (e.g. sites 1-22 offer per-site hookups). Each of those cases needs clear tags if we hope mappers to use them consistently. Your suggestions? ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Taginfo-Challenge
Es gibt zwei Probleme: Der Import ohne Konsultation das impo...@openstreetmap.org. Fehler / typos in das Tags. Haben Sie der/die Mapper ein e-mail geschickt? ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station
To be clear, I encourage people to get involved in all open proposals, not just the one: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Proposed_features_%22Voting%22 The voting process helps to refine tagging proposals: they often get better during the process. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station
Please consider participating in the wiki voting for: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Sanitary_Dump_Station These sites have various names including dump station, dump point, caravan dump station, sanitary station, Elsan disposal point (UK), pumpout, and chemical dump point (CDP). ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Talk-de Nachrichtensammlung, Band 104, Eintrag 4
and since nobody is maintaining the denotation tag. I do use the denotation tag for trees which I add manually. The cluster value is not in the set of values I typically use, I meant nobody is bulk maintaining the denotation=cluster tag: that bot has not run in nearly four years. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Formal proposal: mechanically reverting fixme=set␣better␣denotation / denotation=cluster
This is now a formal proposal to mechanically remove: denotation=cluster fixme=set␣better␣denotation From 200,000+ nodes. See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Bryce_C_Nesbitt The original mapper has commented on this proposal: *The fixmes are useless and can be deleted.* *The denotation flags still have their value. But I won't reopen the old discussion. It has been done to death back then. If people prefer to destroy other mapper's work by forcing a new meaning on existing objects with mass imports then that's the way it is.* And I disagree, since the tags can mechanically be derived from the data, and since nobody is maintaining the denotation tag. The original mapper's statement was: *NopMap: **Thu Sep 9 07:44:05 BST 2010* *From the topology analysis, I have marked every tree without further* *information that has another tree within 50m with denotation=cluster so* *you can tell it is not a single tree. That should be sufficient for* *distinguishing mass trees and solve the ambiguity. And it's not a* *probably, but a simple fact.* *For a first step, this was limited to all trees in Germany, I will extend it* *in a few days when I have more time.* On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 3:23 AM, SomeoneElse li...@atownsend.org.uk wrote: Just for a bit of background on this specific issue, for the lucky people who missed out on it last time around, the mechanical edit that added those values was discussed here: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2010-September/thread.html#4297 and there's some discussion (a couple of years after the event) on the German forum here: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=309562 The discussion on the GB list lead to a revert there: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-November/010492.html More comment from the Netherlands: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=121302#p121302 Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Import of bicycle repair stations / Import Fahrrad Reparatur-Stationen
This is a request for comments on a proposed import of bicycle repair stations: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Dero_Bike_Repair These locations are open 24/7. The locations came from press releases. The locations need local mapping to get the location perfect. -- Dies ist eine RFC zu einem Vorschlag Import von Fahrrad Reparatur-Stationen: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Dero_Bike_Repair Die Standorte kamen von Pressemitteilungen. Die Standorte müssen lokale Zuordnung, die Lage ist perfekt erhalten. Die Standorte sind 24/7 goffnet. See also imports@ and the similar USA import. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
