Re: [Talk-GB] "Inclusion Matters" UK research funding

2017-08-10 Thread Brian Prangle 
Hi Dan

The UK OSM chapter is keen to address the issue of diversity but we've got
a few building blocks to put in place in order to get the chapter
functioning at full speed.Once we have done this (no more than a few weeks)
then we'll start addressing one of our core objectives which is to increase
the number of active mappers in the UK. When we're planning our programme
of activities to  achieve this seems to be the appropriate time to address
diversity. As a small start we're going to do a quick analysis of our
members' data to see how many female members we have. Would your interest
in this matter be great enough to volunteer some time/thought?

Regards

Brian Prangle
OSMUK Director


On 10 August 2017 at 09:08, Dan S  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Thinking about the recent diversity discussions - this UK academic
> funding call just appeared, "Inclusion Matters":
> https://www.epsrc.ac.uk/newsevents/news/inclusionmatterscall/
> It's for university-based projects. If there are any GIS researchers
> reading this, maybe an opportunity for a project to build up the
> inclusiveness of VGI?
>
> Best
> Dan
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

2017-08-10 Thread Miguel Sevilla-Callejo 
On 10 August 2017 at 15:11, Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 10/08/17 14:32, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
> > Please, came to Wales and have a look of the bilingual situation within
> > your country.
> My origins are the Isle of Man and Manx is an even less used language
> than Welsh but is being added back to signs! I'm up in North Wales next
> week ... and make regular trips down the M50 and on into South Wales ...
>
>
Great, so you know...


> > You could have an idea of how it is going the language issue here
> > following the legal situation. Let's have a look of Welsh Language
> > (Wales) Measure 2011 (part 1):
> >
> > " [...] the treatment of the Welsh language no less favourably than the
> > English language;"
> >
> > I expect the same for my favourite spatial and free data base...
>
> The whole point is that political disputes arise world wise, so the
> simple rule is 'map what you see' ...


I'm agree with you. It's what I do.

Yes, fieldwork and local knowledge it is our best tool over other mapping
project.

with regards 'Queens Square' I see
> from Google that there MAY have been a bus terminus at some point in
> time, but that no longer exists? I would presume that the slip road in
> front of the town hall was the actual location, but that 'Queen's
> Square' consists off the green areas and possibly the forecourt of the
> town hall. THAT is not easy to decide by observation, but the Road tags
> do not need to be changed, just the footpaths and park area added and
> tagged ... local knowledge is required to interpret the signs ... at the
> very least the slip road needs adding on OSM.
>

I'll take more photos, will upload to Mapillary and I'll try to fix the
area.

By the way, do you know better imagery over this area? Satellite ones are
no so good.

I'm looking for more local collaborators in the time I'm visiting the
University... Let's see.

Bests

Miguel


>
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

2017-08-10 Thread Miguel Sevilla-Callejo 
On 10 August 2017 at 13:18, Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 10/08/17 11:15, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
> > Hi Lester,
>
> God I hate replying to top posters :(
>

[I do not really understand]

Hello to all of you (British OSM Community?)


> > Have you read the Wiki [1]? Have you see street sing pictures [2][3]?
> That wiki page does not ACTUALLY say 'only map what is visible'
> The tag covering the sign for Queen's Square should have ...
> name=MAES Y FRENHINES QUEEN'S SQ.
>

> > I'm improving the DATA adding a neutral and appropriate "name" tag as
> > well as the "name:en" and "name:cy" tags.
> And I would tag those as
> name:cy=Maes Y Frenhines
> name:en=Queen's Square
>
>
Great! I've just see there is a need to correct this place. No Square is
placed there... I will.

Let's see Stryd Portland / Portland Street
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/16281189
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/j1ngoo9wTxbfXfnMdcEGVA
What's wrong there? There is a name, name:en and name:cy tags in an
appropriate way. Two weeks ago it was no name:en or neutral name tags. It
is improving the DATA from my point of view.


> Other translations would probably be based off the English version as I
> don't think there are many other Welsh to xxx dictionaries? So expanding
> the 'SQ.' element is important.
>
>
No comments. I did... sure.


> The problem is that while I search for Queen's Sq Aberystwyth it is
> being found as Queens' Road
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=Queen%27s%20Sq%
> 20Aberystwyth#map=18/52.41657/-4.08115
> so local knowledge is needed to explain the signage ...
>

This place is still not edited... as I said. Someone mixed with Queen's
Road... I'll check later.


>
> > I guess that the wiki says is the way to do it, right?
> The wiki does not ACTUALLY say that is right - or wrong - which is the
> problem? Should the case used on the signs be followed, should shorthand
> be expanded to make searching easier.
>

As whatever OSMapper could expect I followed the wiki...


> > Here we are to argue if it is wrong of not but from my point of view
> > it's the right approach because it is the same as in other bilingual
> > places around the World: some places in Spain, Belgium, etc.
> Since it is widely accepted that the wiki is simply guidelines then as I
> said "This is still a bit of a woolly area".


"simply guidelines"? I understood it is our reference.


> What is still accepted is
> that the key structure is English and so the default when nothing is
> defined should be 'English' so putting the english element first can be
> argued as the 'correct' approach, and I would prefer that I can find
> 'Queen's Square' easily which is more difficult when 'name' element is
> randomly ordered.


I absolutely disagree with your English-centric point of view. There is a
huge World outside with people who speaks other languages witch must be
represented as such in the diversity/real OSM spatial database.

Are you pretending to promote English name over Welsh only because you
"prefer that"?


> Added to which other countries have their own wars on
> who's language is more important. So we ended up with all the extra keys
> under 'name' http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name with the
> comment against 'name' being what I would consider a rule and the one I
> described ... except it misses the problem of case.
>
>
Please, came to Wales and have a look of the bilingual situation within
your country.

You could have an idea of how it is going the language issue here following
the legal situation. Let's have a look of Welsh Language (Wales) Measure
2011 (part 1):

" [...] the treatment of the Welsh language no less favourably than the
English language;"

I expect the same for my favourite spatial and free data base...

Regards

Miguel


> < trim out of place stuff and sig should never be quoted! >
>
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

2017-08-10 Thread Lester Caine 
On 10/08/17 11:15, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
> Hi Lester,

God I hate replying to top posters :(

> Have you read the Wiki [1]? Have you see street sing pictures [2][3]?
That wiki page does not ACTUALLY say 'only map what is visible'
The tag covering the sign for Queen's Square should have ...
name=MAES Y FRENHINES QUEEN'S SQ.

> I'm improving the DATA adding a neutral and appropriate "name" tag as
> well as the "name:en" and "name:cy" tags.
And I would tag those as
name:cy=Maes Y Frenhines
name:en=Queen's Square

Other translations would probably be based off the English version as I
don't think there are many other Welsh to xxx dictionaries? So expanding
the 'SQ.' element is important.

The problem is that while I search for Queen's Sq Aberystwyth it is
being found as Queens' Road
http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=Queen%27s%20Sq%20Aberystwyth#map=18/52.41657/-4.08115
so local knowledge is needed to explain the signage ...

> I guess that the wiki says is the way to do it, right?
The wiki does not ACTUALLY say that is right - or wrong - which is the
problem? Should the case used on the signs be followed, should shorthand
be expanded to make searching easier.

> Here we are to argue if it is wrong of not but from my point of view
> it's the right approach because it is the same as in other bilingual
> places around the World: some places in Spain, Belgium, etc.
Since it is widely accepted that the wiki is simply guidelines then as I
said "This is still a bit of a woolly area". What is still accepted is
that the key structure is English and so the default when nothing is
defined should be 'English' so putting the english element first can be
argued as the 'correct' approach, and I would prefer that I can find
'Queen's Square' easily which is more difficult when 'name' element is
randomly ordered. Added to which other countries have their own wars on
who's language is more important. So we ended up with all the extra keys
under 'name' http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name with the
comment against 'name' being what I would consider a rule and the one I
described ... except it misses the problem of case.

< trim out of place stuff and sig should never be quoted! >

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

2017-08-10 Thread Miguel Sevilla-Callejo 
Hi Lester,

Have you read the Wiki [1]? Have you see street sing pictures [2][3]?

I'm improving the DATA adding a neutral and appropriate "name" tag as well
as the "name:en" and "name:cy" tags.

I guess that the wiki says is the way to do it, right?

Here we are to argue if it is wrong of not but from my point of view it's
the right approach because it is the same as in other bilingual places
around the World: some places in Spain, Belgium, etc.

Cheers

Miguel

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
[2] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/BVAjyV5Yt6hediIk7Lqv4w
[3] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/j1ngoo9wTxbfXfnMdcEGVA

--
*Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
Doctor en Geography / @msevilla00

On 10 August 2017 at 08:40, Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 09/08/17 23:40, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
> > So I would like to translate here why I'm using a neutral approach for
> > the bilingual tagging in Wales: mainly because I'm following the wiki.
>
> This is still a bit of a woolly area, but name= should only contain the
> information that is actually DISPLAYED locally. So if the street sign
> has only welsh or only english that is what appears in 'name'. This may
> also result in different tags on the same object where signage has
> different spellings or ordering, but someone looking for 'Fford-y-Mor
> Terrace Road' will have a good chance of seeing that on a sign. If the
> signs only have 'Fford-y-Mor' then one knows not to look for 'Terrace
> Road' ... In countries where different alphabets are used reading the
> signs can be challenging ;)
>
> This is then supported by name:en and name:cy along with additional
> name:* translations where people feel the need to generate them.
> Rendering a 'translated' map is then a matter of selecting the available
> name elements in the right order with 'name' being the final fallback,
> but 'Terrace Road' may be preferable for some translations even when the
> displayed name is only 'Fford-y-Mor' ... It depends just what the DATA
> is actually being used for?
>
> Making the DATA easy to use is the key element here not any particular
> rendering approach, but this has been messed up somewhat with there not
> being a consistent way to handle the evolution of the data. Many parts
> of Wales have been 'improving' the prominence of Welsh so what was only
> displayed in English now has the official Welsh signage as well. Using
> 'old_name' may be a way to record some of the changes, but we do need a
> much better defined way of handling the large amount of historic name
> changes that are currently 'lost' in the change logs! OHM needs to be
> feed automatically with data that the general consensus deems not
> appropriate to retain in OSM and the evolution of things like names are
> simply part of that.
>
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
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[Talk-GB] "Inclusion Matters" UK research funding

2017-08-10 Thread Dan S 
Hi

Thinking about the recent diversity discussions - this UK academic
funding call just appeared, "Inclusion Matters":
https://www.epsrc.ac.uk/newsevents/news/inclusionmatterscall/
It's for university-based projects. If there are any GIS researchers
reading this, maybe an opportunity for a project to build up the
inclusiveness of VGI?

Best
Dan

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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

2017-08-10 Thread Lester Caine 
On 09/08/17 23:40, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
> So I would like to translate here why I'm using a neutral approach for
> the bilingual tagging in Wales: mainly because I'm following the wiki.

This is still a bit of a woolly area, but name= should only contain the
information that is actually DISPLAYED locally. So if the street sign
has only welsh or only english that is what appears in 'name'. This may
also result in different tags on the same object where signage has
different spellings or ordering, but someone looking for 'Fford-y-Mor
Terrace Road' will have a good chance of seeing that on a sign. If the
signs only have 'Fford-y-Mor' then one knows not to look for 'Terrace
Road' ... In countries where different alphabets are used reading the
signs can be challenging ;)

This is then supported by name:en and name:cy along with additional
name:* translations where people feel the need to generate them.
Rendering a 'translated' map is then a matter of selecting the available
name elements in the right order with 'name' being the final fallback,
but 'Terrace Road' may be preferable for some translations even when the
displayed name is only 'Fford-y-Mor' ... It depends just what the DATA
is actually being used for?

Making the DATA easy to use is the key element here not any particular
rendering approach, but this has been messed up somewhat with there not
being a consistent way to handle the evolution of the data. Many parts
of Wales have been 'improving' the prominence of Welsh so what was only
displayed in English now has the official Welsh signage as well. Using
'old_name' may be a way to record some of the changes, but we do need a
much better defined way of handling the large amount of historic name
changes that are currently 'lost' in the change logs! OHM needs to be
feed automatically with data that the general consensus deems not
appropriate to retain in OSM and the evolution of things like names are
simply part of that.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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