Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Warin]

On 16-Aug-17 05:27 AM, Philip Barnes wrote:

  The wiki is after all intended to document how people map not dictate how 
they should map.


I would think that the wiki should guide to the best mapping method, not what 
people have done in the past (as found using taginfo for example!).



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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Philip Barnes]

On 15 August 2017 19:27:40 BST, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>On 15/08/2017 19:22, Brian Prangle wrote:
>> But even local authorities and the OS get into hot water  over names 
>>
>!(but
>
>> to be fair this is a placename rather than a street name with a 
>> verifiable sign)
>
>As a kid I always thought that was called "Traeth Beach" because that's
>
And you are never far from Gorsaf Station. 

A true story,  a grad from Wales was telling me that when he was at uni, some 
English friends were going to visit him. He got a phone call to say 'we have 
just passed Gwasanaethau Services. 

We do map what we see, but we also present it in a way that makes sense. The 
same name twice in different languages looks wrong and that we end up with the 
River Avon. 

The Araf/Slow rule, or the first language on the sign is a pretty good way of 
dealing with what name goes in the name tag and that seems to been the 
consensus over many years of different map is mapping in Wales. The wiki is 
after all intended to document how people map not dictate how they should map. 
The recent changes have not actually changed any method of mapping but nearly 
clarified what was already there in previous versions. 

Phil (trigpoint) 

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Andy Townsend]

On 15/08/2017 19:22, Brian Prangle wrote:
But even local authorities and the OS get into hot water  over names 
!(but 
to be fair this is a placename rather than a street name with a 
verifiable sign)


As a kid I always thought that was called "Traeth Beach" because that's 
what the sign said :)


Best Regards,

Andy

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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Brian Prangle]

But even local authorities and the OS get into hot water  over names
!(but
to be fair this is a placename rather than a street name with a verifiable
sign)

On 15 August 2017 at 18:58, Brian Prangle  wrote:

> I think fixing the wiki at this stage is a bit premature as I wasn't aware
> the discussion had finished with an agreed consensus. I admit it's
> difficult with so  few contributors in Wales and so we may end up with the
> revisionas it stands. I'm still perplexed as to how a mapper responds to a
> dual language street sign when we're always encouraged to map "what's on
> the ground"?  Does anyone know what the  policies of Welsh local
> authorities, the Welsh Language Commisioner and the Ordance Survey are with
> respect to mapping street names ?  I'm not even going near the discussion
> about placenames
>
> If it's any help I found these policies online:
>
> Denbighshire
>
> The policy in relation to new street names will therefore be to adopt
> either a Welsh language name or a bilingual name that is consistent with
> the local heritage and history of the area.
>
> Existing street names that are in only one language will not be
> translated except where a request is made to re-name the street as per the
> renaming process in Section B.paragraph 4.(below)
>
> Where a query arises over a place name, the council will consult the
> Welsh Language Commissioner’s place name advisory service.
>
> It is recognised that many databases can only hold one version of an
> address. With bilingual addresses it is Royal Mail’s policy to only publish
> the English version of addresses whilst holding the Welsh version in the
> background
>
>
> Merthyr Tydfil
>
>
> The Council has a Bilingual Policy. This means that where a street has an
> English name the street name plate is to have the English name at the top
> and the Welsh translation underneath.
>
> Where the street has a Welsh name or any other language other than
> English, there is no translation
>
>
> Newport Council
>
>
> Since the Council has the right to decide on the names of new streets, it
> recognisesthe importance of giving consideration to local opinion. The
> policy in relation to new street names will therefore be to adopt
> abilingual name that is consistent with thelocal heritage and history of
> the area.
>
> Following approval of the policy all new street names will be in English
> and Welsh with each having equal status and neither having preference over
> the other.
>
> There will be no change to existing street names and these will remain in
> the ‘known’ language to mitigate potential confusion.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
> Brian
>
>
>
> On 15 August 2017 at 10:19, Adam Snape  wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure of Wiki-editing etiquette but I support the views expressed
>> by Richard. The name tag should contain the primary name of an object, not
>> multiple names. Swansea-Abertawe is no more the name of a place than Duddon
>> Valley - Dunnerdale is. In the absence of knowledge of local usage, using
>> the primary name on signage does seem the best option and is entirely
>> consistent with how we map other names in the UK.
>>
>> I sense a desire to give Welsh names equal billing with English ones
>> wherever both exist. Others have mentioned how odd this would be in some
>> areas where the Welsh name is rarely used by anybody. There are other areas
>> where the Welsh name is the main name and the English (often merely
>> Anglicised) name is now archaic. For example, Conwy is infinitely more
>> common amongst English speakers than Conway. name=Conwy - Conway would be
>> ridiculous. Similarly, to appropriate Miguel's earlier example, Ceredigion
>> is preferred by speakers of both languages.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>> On 15 Aug 2017 12:27 a.m., "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 14-Aug-17 11:49 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/08/2017 14:47, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
>>>
 I do not agree your change of the Wiki. You should ask before to do it.

>>>
>> Ask who?? Don't think there is a formal process to change the wiki, and I
>> have made a few changes without comment.
>>
>>
>>> I'm documenting the existing practice in Wales.
>>>
>>> If you want to change existing practice, the onus is on you to justify
>>> your changes and get agreement.
>>>
>>
>> Agreement with who?
>>
>> If I disagree with with wiki .. I make comment on the talk page .. and
>> then hope someone who disagrees, cares, notices and makes a reply.
>> Where the wiki page does not have much information .. I'll go ahead and
>> add to it.
>>
>>  If it is a tagging issue I'll raise it with the tagging group/list.
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> 

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Brian Prangle]

I think fixing the wiki at this stage is a bit premature as I wasn't aware
the discussion had finished with an agreed consensus. I admit it's
difficult with so  few contributors in Wales and so we may end up with the
revisionas it stands. I'm still perplexed as to how a mapper responds to a
dual language street sign when we're always encouraged to map "what's on
the ground"?  Does anyone know what the  policies of Welsh local
authorities, the Welsh Language Commisioner and the Ordance Survey are with
respect to mapping street names ?  I'm not even going near the discussion
about placenames

If it's any help I found these policies online:

Denbighshire

The policy in relation to new street names will therefore be to adopt
either a Welsh language name or a bilingual name that is consistent with
the local heritage and history of the area.

Existing street names that are in only one language will not be translated
except where a request is made to re-name the street as per the renaming
process in Section B.paragraph 4.(below)

Where a query arises over a place name, the council will consult the Welsh
Language Commissioner’s place name advisory service.

It is recognised that many databases can only hold one version of an
address. With bilingual addresses it is Royal Mail’s policy to only publish
the English version of addresses whilst holding the Welsh version in the
background


Merthyr Tydfil


The Council has a Bilingual Policy. This means that where a street has an
English name the street name plate is to have the English name at the top
and the Welsh translation underneath.

Where the street has a Welsh name or any other language other than English,
there is no translation


Newport Council


Since the Council has the right to decide on the names of new streets, it
recognisesthe importance of giving consideration to local opinion. The
policy in relation to new street names will therefore be to adopt
abilingual name that is consistent with thelocal heritage and history of
the area.

Following approval of the policy all new street names will be in English
and Welsh with each having equal status and neither having preference over
the other.

There will be no change to existing street names and these will remain in
the ‘known’ language to mitigate potential confusion.


Regards


Brian



On 15 August 2017 at 10:19, Adam Snape  wrote:

> I'm not sure of Wiki-editing etiquette but I support the views expressed
> by Richard. The name tag should contain the primary name of an object, not
> multiple names. Swansea-Abertawe is no more the name of a place than Duddon
> Valley - Dunnerdale is. In the absence of knowledge of local usage, using
> the primary name on signage does seem the best option and is entirely
> consistent with how we map other names in the UK.
>
> I sense a desire to give Welsh names equal billing with English ones
> wherever both exist. Others have mentioned how odd this would be in some
> areas where the Welsh name is rarely used by anybody. There are other areas
> where the Welsh name is the main name and the English (often merely
> Anglicised) name is now archaic. For example, Conwy is infinitely more
> common amongst English speakers than Conway. name=Conwy - Conway would be
> ridiculous. Similarly, to appropriate Miguel's earlier example, Ceredigion
> is preferred by speakers of both languages.
>
> Regards,
>
> Adam
>
>
> On 15 Aug 2017 12:27 a.m., "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 14-Aug-17 11:49 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>
>> On 14/08/2017 14:47, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
>>
>>> I do not agree your change of the Wiki. You should ask before to do it.
>>>
>>
> Ask who?? Don't think there is a formal process to change the wiki, and I
> have made a few changes without comment.
>
>
>> I'm documenting the existing practice in Wales.
>>
>> If you want to change existing practice, the onus is on you to justify
>> your changes and get agreement.
>>
>
> Agreement with who?
>
> If I disagree with with wiki .. I make comment on the talk page .. and
> then hope someone who disagrees, cares, notices and makes a reply.
> Where the wiki page does not have much information .. I'll go ahead and
> add to it.
>
>  If it is a tagging issue I'll raise it with the tagging group/list.
>
>
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>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[paul.bivand]

Just seen. And may be relevant 
http://discoversociety.org/2017/08/02/policy-and-politics-revitalising-minority-languages-in-a-period-of-social-transformation/?utm_content=buffer386e1_medium=social_source=twitter.com_campaign=buffer.
 
Hides
Paul
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
 Original message From: Adam Snape  
Date: 15/08/2017  10:19  (GMT+00:00) To: Talk GB  
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales 
I'm not sure of Wiki-editing etiquette but I support the views expressed by 
Richard. The name tag should contain the primary name of an object, not 
multiple names. Swansea-Abertawe is no more the name of a place than Duddon 
Valley - Dunnerdale is. In the absence of knowledge of local usage, using the 
primary name on signage does seem the best option and is entirely consistent 
with how we map other names in the UK.
I sense a desire to give Welsh names equal billing with English ones wherever 
both exist. Others have mentioned how odd this would be in some areas where the 
Welsh name is rarely used by anybody. There are other areas where the Welsh 
name is the main name and the English (often merely Anglicised) name is now 
archaic. For example, Conwy is infinitely more common amongst English speakers 
than Conway. name=Conwy - Conway would be ridiculous. Similarly, to appropriate 
Miguel's earlier example, Ceredigion is preferred by speakers of both languages.
Regards,
Adam

On 15 Aug 2017 12:27 a.m., "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14-Aug-17 11:49 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:


On 14/08/2017 14:47, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:


I do not agree your change of the Wiki. You should ask before to do it.




Ask who?? Don't think there is a formal process to change the wiki, and I have 
made a few changes without comment.




I'm documenting the existing practice in Wales.



If you want to change existing practice, the onus is on you to justify your 
changes and get agreement.




Agreement with who?



If I disagree with with wiki .. I make comment on the talk page .. and then 
hope someone who disagrees, cares, notices and makes a reply.

Where the wiki page does not have much information .. I'll go ahead and add to 
it.



 If it is a tagging issue I'll raise it with the tagging group/list.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Adam Snape]

I'm not sure of Wiki-editing etiquette but I support the views expressed by
Richard. The name tag should contain the primary name of an object, not
multiple names. Swansea-Abertawe is no more the name of a place than Duddon
Valley - Dunnerdale is. In the absence of knowledge of local usage, using
the primary name on signage does seem the best option and is entirely
consistent with how we map other names in the UK.

I sense a desire to give Welsh names equal billing with English ones
wherever both exist. Others have mentioned how odd this would be in some
areas where the Welsh name is rarely used by anybody. There are other areas
where the Welsh name is the main name and the English (often merely
Anglicised) name is now archaic. For example, Conwy is infinitely more
common amongst English speakers than Conway. name=Conwy - Conway would be
ridiculous. Similarly, to appropriate Miguel's earlier example, Ceredigion
is preferred by speakers of both languages.

Regards,

Adam


On 15 Aug 2017 12:27 a.m., "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 14-Aug-17 11:49 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> On 14/08/2017 14:47, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
>
>> I do not agree your change of the Wiki. You should ask before to do it.
>>
>
Ask who?? Don't think there is a formal process to change the wiki, and I
have made a few changes without comment.


> I'm documenting the existing practice in Wales.
>
> If you want to change existing practice, the onus is on you to justify
> your changes and get agreement.
>

Agreement with who?

If I disagree with with wiki .. I make comment on the talk page .. and then
hope someone who disagrees, cares, notices and makes a reply.
Where the wiki page does not have much information .. I'll go ahead and add
to it.

 If it is a tagging issue I'll raise it with the tagging group/list.


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