Re: [Talk-GB] Are Northern Ireland, Wales & England 'states'?

[Lester Caine]

On 22/08/17 12:23, Colin Smale wrote:
> If you ask people where they live, they will probably talk about the
> county level and the settlement/town/city, but the informal boundaries
> of these settlements will likely not follow the administrative
> boundaries. In fact, it may not be possible to agree a polygon with a
> sharp boundary of what constitutes a settlement with a given name. Most
> place=* polygons in OSM just follow the boundary of the built-up area.
> 
> So I see a possible role for is_in - to help out geocoding where
> geometrical methods lead to an undesirable (though accurate) result.

Middlesex ceased to exist in 1965 yet many people still use it in their
postal address ... there is certainly no boundary for it on OSM :) To
add to the fun, facebook's allowed list of places miss-identifies this
area of London in the same way as the other areas that became London
Boroughs back then and this is creating a mess in Facebook's use as a
business platform.

Starting with a list of the current official designations from the ONS
database has to be the correct currently accurate information, but while
there should be a boundary associated with each entry, a simple list of
elements does not need to be overloaded with all of the way information
providing that boundary. It is a secondary relation to the base 'name'.

http://geoportal.statistics.gov.uk/datasets/0e7bbf9926584a57a2818c64f01d0bfe_0/data
provides a list of the official COUNTRIES in the United Kingdom but even
that is probably inaccurate in relation to is Northern Ireland part of
the United Kingdom? ( At some time will Scottish translations also be
added? )

The Open Geography Portal provides a list of data and the basis for
checking that within OSM, but it will be easier to complete a complete
mirror of is_in: hierarchy which can be updated as changes appear in the
ONS dataset and THEN associate boundaries as appropriate.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Are Northern Ireland, Wales & England 'states'?

[Colin Smale]

Of course. But accuracy (perhaps correctness is a better word here) is
relative to some frame of reference. What is right under some
circumstances can be wrong under other circumstances. If you are a
postman, you have a different view of toponymy than a local government
official, a visitor or a resident. There are many versions of "correct".
This is exactly the core of the problem: people are looking for a single
solution for a polyvalent problem. If the solutions align, it is by
coincidence, not design. We should stop tilting at windmills and adjust
our world-model.

If there is a defined boundary, it can be captured as polygon. Often it
is not that simple. 

On 2017-08-22 15:21, Dave F wrote:

> Accurate *as possible*
> 
> On 22/08/2017 13:59, Colin Smale wrote: 
> 
> That depends on your definition of "accurate", doesn't it?
> 
> On 2017-08-22 14:15, Dave F wrote: 
> But a query to the OSM database isn't interested in what 'locals' 
> misinterpret, it's interested in what OSM returns.
> 
> The ignorance of the person on the street is just one reason why OSM needs to 
> exist & be as accurate as possible.
> 
> DaveF
> 
> On 22/08/2017 12:50, Andy Townsend wrote: On 22/08/2017 12:23, Colin Smale 
> wrote: 
> What would a "local" answer? 
> Good luck getting a consistent answer to that :)
> 
> http://ma3t.co.uk/euanmills/euanmills/tifd.html
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Andy
> 
> (and apologies in advance for anyone upset by small-font profanity in the 
> link)
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Select and correct a discovered key duplication of sorts in JOSM

[David Groom]

Alternatively in JOSM:

File > Download from Overpass API

Then put  ref:Chiltern_Society = *  in the text box next to "Build 
query", then click "Build Query".

Next select download area, and then click "Download"

David

-- Original Message --
From: "Bob Hawkins" 
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Sent: 19/08/2017 16:55:03
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Select and correct a discovered key duplication 
of sorts in JOSM


My failing brain disturbs me at times: Edit>Preferences>Remote 
Control>Enable remote control!


Virus-free. 
www.avast.com 
 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Are Northern Ireland, Wales & England 'states'?

[Dave F]

Accurate *as possible*

On 22/08/2017 13:59, Colin Smale wrote:


That depends on your definition of "accurate", doesn't it?


On 2017-08-22 14:15, Dave F wrote:

But a query to the OSM database isn't interested in what 'locals' 
misinterpret, it's interested in what OSM returns.


The ignorance of the person on the street is just one reason why OSM 
needs to exist & be as accurate as possible.


DaveF

On 22/08/2017 12:50, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 22/08/2017 12:23, Colin Smale wrote:


 What would a "local" answer?


Good luck getting a consistent answer to that :)

http://ma3t.co.uk/euanmills/euanmills/tifd.html

Best Regards,

Andy

(and apologies in advance for anyone upset by small-font profanity 
in the link)


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Re: [Talk-GB] Are Northern Ireland, Wales & England 'states'?

[Colin Smale]

That depends on your definition of "accurate", doesn't it?

On 2017-08-22 14:15, Dave F wrote:

> But a query to the OSM database isn't interested in what 'locals' 
> misinterpret, it's interested in what OSM returns.
> 
> The ignorance of the person on the street is just one reason why OSM needs to 
> exist & be as accurate as possible.
> 
> DaveF
> 
> On 22/08/2017 12:50, Andy Townsend wrote: On 22/08/2017 12:23, Colin Smale 
> wrote: 
> What would a "local" answer?
> 
> Good luck getting a consistent answer to that :)
> 
> http://ma3t.co.uk/euanmills/euanmills/tifd.html
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Andy
> 
> (and apologies in advance for anyone upset by small-font profanity in the 
> link)
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Are Northern Ireland, Wales & England 'states'?

[Dave F]

But a query to the OSM database isn't interested in what 'locals' 
misinterpret, it's interested in what OSM returns.


The ignorance of the person on the street is just one reason why OSM 
needs to exist & be as accurate as possible.


DaveF

On 22/08/2017 12:50, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 22/08/2017 12:23, Colin Smale wrote:


 What would a "local" answer?



Good luck getting a consistent answer to that :)

http://ma3t.co.uk/euanmills/euanmills/tifd.html

Best Regards,

Andy

(and apologies in advance for anyone upset by small-font profanity in 
the link)


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Re: [Talk-GB] Are Northern Ireland, Wales & England 'states'?

[Dave F]

OSM is geospatially aware. I'm unsure why there's a reluctance to use it.

is_in tags are far more "incomplete and imperfect" than boundaries.
Boundaries are maintained far more than the antiquated is_in:*.

*Every* entity will require a full set of is_in tags to be workable.

If an entity is in "no-mans-land" of boundaries, it will be in 
"no-mans-land" if tag with is_in, Using geospatial calculation with 
boundaries it will know it's 'outside' but be able to find the nearest 
area. Describing it a 'near to...' isn't perfect but better than nothing 
which is what you'd get using is_In.


DaveF


On 22/08/2017 12:23, Colin Smale wrote:


Let's have some use cases out on the table... if my location is 
{lat,lon}, where am I? What answer am I expecting? Postal address? 
Town or other settlement? The local council? What would a "local" answer?


In the UK, the hierarchy of admin boundaries is incomplete and 
imperfect - there are unparished areas, and combined authorities for 
example. There are so many black holes in the UK - where you are in 
no-mans-land "between A and B but in neither." If nobody lives there, 
is it actually necessary to be able to say where you are?


If you ask people where they live, they will probably talk about the 
county level and the settlement/town/city, but the informal boundaries 
of these settlements will likely not follow the administrative 
boundaries. In fact, it may not be possible to agree a polygon with a 
sharp boundary of what constitutes a settlement with a given name. 
Most place=* polygons in OSM just follow the boundary of the built-up 
area.


So I see a possible role for is_in - to help out geocoding where 
geometrical methods lead to an undesirable (though accurate) result.


//colin

On 2017-08-22 12:57, Dave F wrote:



This is a reply to a Q. I posed on Talk. Nominatum clearly prefer 
boundaries to is_in & say it's not heavy processing:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2016-August/076596.html

As UK boundaries are sure be updated in OSM, keeping the secondary 
is_in 'cleanly managed' will be a major task.


On 22/08/2017 09:38, Lester Caine wrote:

On 12/08/17 13:12, Dave F wrote:

I also think the 'is_in:country_code' along with all 'is-_in' tags are
redundant if there's a boundary tag..

In the past I thought that the is_in element was something of a problem,
but it does have a place when one remembers that OSM is all about the
data. "if there's a boundary tag" is the problem here if one is
extracting a set of data? Processing a number of boundaries around a set
of objects takes time, while cleanly managed is_in:admin_area with a
proper hierarchy allows a much quicker lookup of information such as -
in the case of the the UK - parliamentary boundaries, wards, historic
county, NHS admin area and so on without having to physically draw every
fine detail of these ever changing boundaries. BUT it only works well if
there is a well defined hierarchy so tagging is_in:gb-ward
http://geoportal.statistics.gov.uk/datasets/417e93f21c5c419283ac23abc8eedcce_0
gives all this data in a format we can freely use as with the other
'boundary' data.

It is just a pity that 'postcode' is so badly organised that it quite
regularly straddles these other boundaries, but is_in:gb-postcode would
remove the need to add all of the associated address data to every
object on a particular street, and for the vast majority of postcodes it
WOULD also identify all of the other is_in: data at a higher level. It
just needs an object defining is:gb-postcode and is:gb-ward to provide
all the hierarchy ... without overloading the server with searches for
all of the boundaries intersecting the original dataset?

Of cause I am also still looking to maintain access to historic data,
and this model makes it easy to check start and end dates of
is:gb-postcode and is:gb-ward without having to maintain all of those
boundaries actually in the base dataset - something which the majority
of users seems to have decided against :(



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Re: [Talk-GB] Are Northern Ireland, Wales & England 'states'?

[Colin Smale]

On 2017-08-22 13:50, Andy Townsend wrote:

> On 22/08/2017 12:23, Colin Smale wrote:
> What would a "local" answer?
> 
> Good luck getting a consistent answer to that :)
> 
> http://ma3t.co.uk/euanmills/euanmills/tifd.html

Wow, I rest my case... 

Although he seems to have asked people who were simply present in the
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Re: [Talk-GB] Are Northern Ireland, Wales & England 'states'?

[Andy Townsend]

On 22/08/2017 12:23, Colin Smale wrote:


 What would a "local" answer?



Good luck getting a consistent answer to that :)

http://ma3t.co.uk/euanmills/euanmills/tifd.html

Best Regards,

Andy

(and apologies in advance for anyone upset by small-font profanity in 
the link)


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Re: [Talk-GB] Are Northern Ireland, Wales & England 'states'?

[Dave F]

The main one I came across was is_in:continent=Europe. I asked why there 
wasn't one. The conclusion was no one could agree where the boundary 
actually was. Saying that, I'm unsure if specifying 
is_in:continent=Europe is that beneficial.


Also many local authority political ward boundaries aren't in the database.

DaveF

On 21/08/2017 20:00, Andrew Hain wrote:
Should we go a bit further and strip out all is_in tags not used by 
Nominatim across Britain (which may mean all of them), or are there 
other uses we should consider? The community in France did that when 
they finished mapping communes.


--
Andrew

*From:* Dave F 
*Sent:* 20 August 2017 22:57:06
*To:* Andrew Black; Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
*Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] Are Northern Ireland, Wales & England 'states'?
I will revert

DaveF

On 12/08/2017 22:39, Andrew Black wrote:



On 12 August 2017 at 13:12, Dave F > wrote:


Hi
I'm unsure if Northern Ireland, Wales & England should be tagged
as 'states'.

A new user's changeset comment:
Adding more info. is_in:country_code was missing. Also classified
Northern Ireland as a state so it appears in the same priority as
Wales. Was unclassified before


Doesn't make sense to me.

"A high-level sub-national political entity 
(Wikipedia-16px.png Federated state 
) in several large 
countries such as USA ("State"), Australia ("State"), Canada 
("Province"). May also be applicable in other countries and 
languages, "Provincia", "Estado", "Land" - whether is should be used 
is up to you and mappers in your own country."


 We are not a federated country. Suggest we revert it. Why is Wales a 
state in the first place.




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Re: [Talk-GB] Are Northern Ireland, Wales & England 'states'?

[Colin Smale]

Let's have some use cases out on the table... if my location is
{lat,lon}, where am I? What answer am I expecting? Postal address? Town
or other settlement? The local council? What would a "local" answer? 

In the UK, the hierarchy of admin boundaries is incomplete and imperfect
- there are unparished areas, and combined authorities for example.
There are so many black holes in the UK - where you are in no-mans-land
"between A and B but in neither." If nobody lives there, is it actually
necessary to be able to say where you are? 

If you ask people where they live, they will probably talk about the
county level and the settlement/town/city, but the informal boundaries
of these settlements will likely not follow the administrative
boundaries. In fact, it may not be possible to agree a polygon with a
sharp boundary of what constitutes a settlement with a given name. Most
place=* polygons in OSM just follow the boundary of the built-up area. 

So I see a possible role for is_in - to help out geocoding where
geometrical methods lead to an undesirable (though accurate) result.

//colin 

On 2017-08-22 12:57, Dave F wrote:

> This is a reply to a Q. I posed on Talk. Nominatum clearly prefer boundaries 
> to is_in & say it's not heavy processing:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2016-August/076596.html
> 
> As UK boundaries are sure be updated in OSM, keeping the secondary is_in 
> 'cleanly managed' will be a major task.
> 
> On 22/08/2017 09:38, Lester Caine wrote: On 12/08/17 13:12, Dave F wrote: I 
> also think the 'is_in:country_code' along with all 'is-_in' tags are
> redundant if there's a boundary tag.. In the past I thought that the is_in 
> element was something of a problem,
> but it does have a place when one remembers that OSM is all about the
> data. "if there's a boundary tag" is the problem here if one is
> extracting a set of data? Processing a number of boundaries around a set
> of objects takes time, while cleanly managed is_in:admin_area with a
> proper hierarchy allows a much quicker lookup of information such as -
> in the case of the the UK - parliamentary boundaries, wards, historic
> county, NHS admin area and so on without having to physically draw every
> fine detail of these ever changing boundaries. BUT it only works well if
> there is a well defined hierarchy so tagging is_in:gb-ward
> http://geoportal.statistics.gov.uk/datasets/417e93f21c5c419283ac23abc8eedcce_0
> gives all this data in a format we can freely use as with the other
> 'boundary' data.
> 
> It is just a pity that 'postcode' is so badly organised that it quite
> regularly straddles these other boundaries, but is_in:gb-postcode would
> remove the need to add all of the associated address data to every
> object on a particular street, and for the vast majority of postcodes it
> WOULD also identify all of the other is_in: data at a higher level. It
> just needs an object defining is:gb-postcode and is:gb-ward to provide
> all the hierarchy ... without overloading the server with searches for
> all of the boundaries intersecting the original dataset?
> 
> Of cause I am also still looking to maintain access to historic data,
> and this model makes it easy to check start and end dates of
> is:gb-postcode and is:gb-ward without having to maintain all of those
> boundaries actually in the base dataset - something which the majority
> of users seems to have decided against :(

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Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-gb-london] New OSM London Meetup - Invite

[Andres Muniz Piniella]

Hi,
new to OSM edit. I live in an estate TW10 7NY. Currently 192 homes and
it is at risk of redevelopment in to make 425 homes. There is also a
community project to document historical features so I want to thank
you for this guidance. It will be helpful to edit entries. 
Regards, 
Andres
On Mon, 2017-08-21 at 19:42 +0100, SK53 wrote:
> My normal practice is to map the estate as a separate landuse area
> and name that. One example I've done fairly recently in this way is
> the Whittington Estate, Highgate. 
> 
> My view is that named estates vary in size & local perception too
> much for a single place=* usage. Most London ones will be perceived
> to be in a particular suburb (even quite large ones) so I don't think
> the suburb tag is likely to be appropriate. They are usually very
> well delineated, both on the ground and in terms of architecture.
> Several distinct estates may also form a coherent neighbourhood. 
> 
> Recent examples I've looked at (largely inspired by John Boughton who
> blogs & tweets as Muncipal Dreams):
> 
> Ossulton Estate (Somertown): name attached to buildings. 
> Old Oak Estate (Acton/Hammersmith): not mapped. There are two early
> 20C estates either side of Du Cane road.
> Progress Estate (Eltham): added as an area.
> New Addington (LB of Croydon, but a place in its own right). John
> Gringrod's new book Outskirts, about the Green Belt, features this
> estate extensively. He grew up there.
> A couple of Islington estates (perhaps Andover) which were anonymised
> in a 1970s book. I don't have the reference to hand.
> Delineating the estates is very useful for a number of reasons
> associated with the study of these areas: history, architecture,
> urban planning, sociology etc. Detailed mapping may be of direct
> assistance for residents associations (the sort of thing Tom has done
> in the past). Of course the ideal would be that mapping involved
> people who live on the estates. Plenty of the modern academic
> literature comes from people who grew up on council estates.
> I would recommend seeing what has been written about these places as
> a way of informing ones mapping. There's often surprisingly detailed
> information: its not unusual for some older people living on these
> estates to have known them all their lives. Or their children return
> frequently: Ian Waites accounts and photos of the Middlefield Estate
> in Gainsborough show what can be done.
> Other writers worth reading for perspectives relevant to mapping
> stuff on OSM include: Lynsey Hanley ("Estates"), Owen Hatherley
> (mainly in articles and all over the place), Chris Matthews
> (Nottingham & other East Midland estates), Lisa Mckenzie (who
> espouses "narrative from within"). These are all in one way or other
> left-wing.
> Regards,
> 
> Jerry
> 
> On 21 August 2017 at 16:49, Tom Chance  wrote:
> > Hi Nicolas,
> > 
> > I think that could be really valuable. One of the first mapping
> > parties I attended was one I helped Harry organise, to map north
> > Peckham when the whole area was a blank space on the map, and in
> > particular to add more detail for roads and footpaths through
> > estates that were usually just shown as gaps in other maps. I also
> > helped map the trees on the Heygate Estate before demolition
> > started, which is great to have as an archive of what was there
> > before the developers reneged on promises and cut some of the best
> > specimens down.
> > 
> > Just a few points/questions...
> > 
> > 1. Presumably the data is coming from people's local knowledge, so
> > there aren't any copyright issues? What's the underlying map people
> > are adding them to - OSM? Google maps? That might create a
> > copyright issue. I know there are maps of London council estates
> > knocking around that are based on Ordnance Survey data.
> > 
> > 2. Someone would then need to go through, one by one, and check
> > whether the estate's name is already in the database before adding
> > the missing names. There are already lots in OSM, so it would be
> > good to avoid adding duplicates.
> > 
> > 3. I'm not sure we've ever settled on the right place= value for
> > estates. It's some years since I was really actively mapping -
> > these days I just maintain my immediate area. But would it be
> > place=neighbourhood, place=locality, place=estate, something else?
> > 
> > 4. Some estates are entered as nodes, others as areas, and some
> > areas are landuse=residential while others are just given the
> > estate name. Again, this might be a good opportunity to get a
> > consistent approach?
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > Tom
> > 
> > Tom Chance
> > Housing policy and programmes consultant
> > m: 07866 447 075
> > w: http://tomchance.org
> > 
> > On 17 August 2017 at 12:18, Nicolas Fonty 
> > wrote:
> > > Hi Bjoern
> > > 
> > > Not yet in OSM.  For the moment we are just locating their
> > > approximative centre with coordinates + their name.
> > > And that would be 

[Talk-gb-westmidlands] Research contributions needed www.3dosm.com

[Alfie Kelly]

Hello,

I am an M.Sc. researcher with the University of Nottingham and am currently 
conducting a research study regarding the potential for 3D building data 
collection by OSM users and the crowd.

I am particularly interested in people’s motivations for collecting 3D building 
information and potential barriers to data collection and editing. I am also 
interested in the potential for semantic enrichment (e.g. building materials 
etc.) of buildings via publicly available imagery (satellite and street view).

What can you do to help?

I have created a website to collect some data from the OSM community. I would 
really appreciate it if you could visit www.3dosm.com and complete the 
questionnaire and 3D building surveys.

Who is this research targeted at?

Anybody who is interested in OpenStreetMap and has either contributed 3D 
information or might like to contribute 3D information in the future. Knowledge 
of 3D surveying isn’t necessary and I would encourage anybody with a passion 
for OSM to take part.

Am I anonymous?

All forms you complete (and the resulting data) is completely anonymous and no 
IP addresses or personal information will be stored or processed.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read this. I am passionate about 
sustainable crowd sourced solutions to data collection, and I really hope that 
with your help this research can support the future of 3D OSM!

Alfie





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Re: [Talk-GB] Are Northern Ireland, Wales & England 'states'?

[Lester Caine]

On 12/08/17 13:12, Dave F wrote:
> I also think the 'is_in:country_code' along with all 'is-_in' tags are
> redundant if there's a boundary tag..

In the past I thought that the is_in element was something of a problem,
but it does have a place when one remembers that OSM is all about the
data. "if there's a boundary tag" is the problem here if one is
extracting a set of data? Processing a number of boundaries around a set
of objects takes time, while cleanly managed is_in:admin_area with a
proper hierarchy allows a much quicker lookup of information such as -
in the case of the the UK - parliamentary boundaries, wards, historic
county, NHS admin area and so on without having to physically draw every
fine detail of these ever changing boundaries. BUT it only works well if
there is a well defined hierarchy so tagging is_in:gb-ward
http://geoportal.statistics.gov.uk/datasets/417e93f21c5c419283ac23abc8eedcce_0
gives all this data in a format we can freely use as with the other
'boundary' data.

It is just a pity that 'postcode' is so badly organised that it quite
regularly straddles these other boundaries, but is_in:gb-postcode would
remove the need to add all of the associated address data to every
object on a particular street, and for the vast majority of postcodes it
WOULD also identify all of the other is_in: data at a higher level. It
just needs an object defining is:gb-postcode and is:gb-ward to provide
all the hierarchy ... without overloading the server with searches for
all of the boundaries intersecting the original dataset?

Of cause I am also still looking to maintain access to historic data,
and this model makes it easy to check start and end dates of
is:gb-postcode and is:gb-ward without having to maintain all of those
boundaries actually in the base dataset - something which the majority
of users seems to have decided against :(

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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