Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 25/03/2018 21:49, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:

...
Sorry to insist but you will undermine, especially, Welsh names, for a 
generic rendering that uses "name" tags. Think about that.


Can you give a specific example of that?  Are you saying that "it's 
important to pretend that Welsh names are displayed even where they 
aren't used very often" by sticking them on the end of the more commonly 
used name?  The other way around (using Welsh in "name" because it is 
the most used name) presumably wouldn't "undermine ... Welsh names".  It 
could be that I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying here 
but I really don't follow the argument at all.




Of course, for me, it's a must to fill "name:cy" and "name:en" too.


That's great news - it'll allow maps like https://openstreetmap.cymru/ 
(and mine!) to render appropriate names in appropriate areas.



On 25 March 2018 at 20:30, Curon Davies > wrote:


  * The fundamental problem is that there is no "name" which
is correct. In the medium term, as long as the name:cy and
name:en are correct then the value of "name" should become
less significant. Then it can be up to the user to decide
if they want to display English, Welsh or both (and if
both which language taking priority).

The problem currently, is that display choice isn't available.



I don't think that that's actually true - I can think of at least 3 
choices right now:


 * OSM "Standard map" (and a number of others), which just use the
   "name" tag:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.88362/-5.26565

 * Openstreetmap.cymru, which uses "name:cy":


https://openstreetmap.cymru?h=51.88397494833407=-5.264972448348999=17

 * Mine, that show one of "name:cy", "name:en", "name:ga" or "name"
   depending on location:


http://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=18=51.883531=-5.264898

and of course anyone making their own maps (Garmin etc.) can do whatever 
they want.


Best Regards,

Andy

PS: Apologies to Curon if his message wasn't meant for the list - I'm 
guessing that it was but that he's actually not subscribed yet and his 
reply went both to that and Miguel.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Adam Snape]

I'm not sure about other countries, but one thing I did notice when living
in Wales is that there did seem in many (most) cases to be a consistently
preferred name. For this reason there is a problem automatically adding
name:en for an English variant of a name where most English speakers would
use the Welsh name. Someone wishing to render a map for English speakers
would end up rendering legitimate but antiquated or seldom used English
names rather than the Welsh name that most English speakers would actually
use. Thus, I would caution against a separate name:en tag where the name
tag already carries the name preferred by English speakers.I would suggest
alt_name:en or old_name:en respectively for less common variants.

The same argument applies to the (somewhat rarer) places where the English
names are preferred by Welsh speakers. Over enthusiasm amongst some
councils in recent decades has sometimes resulted in places signed with
ancient or newly-contrived Welsh translations of names. IIRC the Welsh
Language Board was somewhat critical of this behaviour. If the names have
no currency amongst Welsh speakers, I would advise against a name:cy tag,
preferring alt_name:cy, old_name:cy or official_name:cy.

Regards,

Adam
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

Hello,

As a foreigner and someone arriving to a place where people are using both
languages (my experience is living for almost 2 years in Aberystwyth, North
Wales) I'm still thinking you should use both names for "name" tag as you
can see on official maps (not only OS maps) or signs. I'm thinking in
street names not in place names, where you could have more idea if Welsh or
English name is common.

Sorry to insist but you will undermine, especially, Welsh names, for a
generic rendering that uses "name" tags. Think about that.

Of course, for me, it's a must to fill "name:cy" and "name:en" too.

Moreover, there is nothing except an aesthetic problem, to use the "mix"
approach for "name". What's the point to not use same approach used in
other multilingual places of the World?

May be we could discuss that in the generic/global Talk mail list to know
other opinions.

Cheers

Miguel

--
*Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
Doctor en Geografía

On 25 March 2018 at 20:30, Curon Davies  wrote:

> Hi Ben,
>
> A general response to your points:
>
>>
>>- There is no single name for many places. In Wales most places have
>>a name that they are called when communicating in English and a name that
>>they are called when communicating in Welsh. In neither language are both
>>names used.
>>
>>  Informally some English names are used in Welsh, but vice versa is less
> likely.
>
>>
>>- So the most important thing is that we label them with the English
>>and Welsh name tags
>>
>>
>>- What then should we include in the "name" tag? Including both
>>alternates seems, at first sight, like an attractive solution.
>>
>> It should be noted that both OS and Harvey maps generally include both
> names, it would be nice if the default OSM renderer reflected this.
>
>
>>
>>- But what about the city of Henffordd or the town of Amwythig? They
>>have Welsh names and English names so the logic would be to use both in 
>> the
>>name tag. Except Hereford - Henffordd and Shrewsbury - Amwythig are in
>>England and, I suspect, there would not be support to use bilingual names
>>in OSM outside of the current boundary of Wales. I don't challenge that 
>> but
>>I'd see it as a political judgement about the boundaries of Wales and the
>>status of the Welsh language within the United Kingdom rather than a
>>mapping decision.
>>
>> The two examples mentioned are in English only on an OS maps, but
> Oswestry (Croesoswallt) is named in both English and Welsh, despite being
> over the border.
>
>>
>>- In the UK generally "name" refers to the name by which it is known
>>when communicating in English. It seems most straightforward, and least
>>politically fraught, to me to continue this practice in Wales,.
>>
>> OS maps including both, although arguably this is a rendering problem.
> Why shouldn't OSM reflect this?
>
>>
>>- The fundamental problem is that there is no "name" which is
>>correct. In the medium term, as long as the name:cy and name:en are 
>> correct
>>then the value of "name" should become less significant. Then it can be up
>>to the user to decide if they want to display English, Welsh or both (and
>>if both which language taking priority).
>>
>> The problem currently, is that display choice isn't available.
>
> Regards
> Curon
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 25/03/2018 16:18, Ben Proctor wrote:
(snip)


  * But what about the city of Henffordd or the town of Amwythig? They
have Welsh names and English names so the logic would be to use
both in the name tag. Except Hereford - Henffordd and Shrewsbury -
Amwythig are in England and, I suspect, there would not be support
to use bilingual names in OSM outside of the current boundary of
Wales. I don't challenge that but I'd see it as a political
judgement about the boundaries of Wales and the status of the
Welsh language within the United Kingdom rather than a mapping
decision.



Personally, I'd say there's just as much a case for a Welsh language map 
that also shows welsh names as the "default name" for use by Welsh 
speakers as there is an English-names map for English speakers and a 
German-names map for German speakers.  Which name any individual map 
chooses to show is as you say up to it.



  * In the UK generally "name" refers to the name by which it is known
when communicating in English. It seems most straightforward, and
least politically fraught, to me to continue this practice in Wales,.



Actually I'd disagree here - I'd suggest "... most commonly used name" 
(which might be one of at least Welsh, English or Gaelic, depending on 
the languages locally in use).  I wouldn't use an English name for a 
place as "name" in a primarily Welsh-speaking area.  I don't think that 
English should have a special status in the OSM database, even for 
places in the UK.


I'd absolutely agree that getting "name:en" and "name:cy" added for 
names in use makes sense though.


Best Regards,
Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Hi Adam

That makes sense to me. So for example..?

name - Caernarfon
name:cy - Caernarfon
old_name:en Carnarvon

Cheers

Ben




On 24 March 2018 at 21:17, Adam Snape  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I think Ben's suggestion is sensible where there is a consistent and clear
> preference.
>
> As name:en is for the standard English name, I suggest avoiding using that
> tag for English names where the Welsh name is now also the more common one
> used in English. That said, I think avriant names are always worth adding.
> I would suggest using alt_name (if a name is still used by some) or
> old_name (if it is now out of usage).
>
> Regards,
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> On 23 March 2018 at 16:04, Ben Proctor  wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I was lurking on this list when the original discussion started and it
>> was in my head when someone approached me about running a mapping project
>> in Wales. We've been using a little Welsh Government funding to support a
>> Welsh Language render of osm (currently just covering Wales)
>> https://openstreetmap.cymru . We've also been raising the profile of osm
>> in Wales, particularly in Welsh speaking communities. We hope to continue
>> this work over the coming months and grow a stronger osm community in
>> Wales. Here are the blogs about the project in English
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/tag/mapiocymru/ and in Welsh
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/tag/mapiocymru/
>>
>> We've been discussing the issue of multi-language tagging as part of this
>> project and we would like to propose an update to the Welsh language
>> section of the Wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org
>> /wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>>
>> I'd appreciate any comment and thoughts.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Ben
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Wales is a bilingual country and many place names have both English and
>> Welsh versions. When communicating in English some places are known by
>> their Welsh name and some by their English name. When communicating in
>> Welsh all places are know by their Welsh name. Bilingual names (English and
>> Welsh versions) are not used in Wales. *
>>
>> *In general the name tag should contain the name generally used when
>> communicating in English. In some cases this will be the Welsh name. If in
>> doubt look for local usage / signage.*
>>
>>
>>
>> *Where possible please add a name:cy which is the name in Welsh for the
>> place. Please add this tag even if the name tag uses the name in Welsh.It
>> may also be helpful to add a name:en, especially if the name tag uses the
>> name in Welsh.*
>>
>> *Examples:*
>> *name - Swansea*
>> *name:cy - Abertawe*
>>
>> *name - Caernarfon*
>> *name:cy - Caernarfon*
>>
>> *name - Heol Eglyws*
>> *name:cy - Heol Eglyws*
>> *name:en - Church Road*
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16 August 2017 at 14:10, Adam Snape  wrote:
>>
>>> The 'best mapping method' is somewhat subjective. If it were the sole
>>> criteria, then we would instantly create documentation to replace lots of
>>> the less than ideal tags which have developed and explicitly depreciate
>>> either the classic (highway=footway/bridleway/cycleway) or
>>> 'alternative' (highway= path, access=*) tagging schemes. We don't because
>>> there is no consensus and existing use counts for a lot.
>>>
>>> If there is genuine consensus upon a better way then perhaps this should
>>> be documented. In the absence of such consensus, documenting how we
>>> actually currently map is preferable (because it is already prevalent and
>>> verifiable) to not documentating or documenting one school of thought on
>>> how we ought to map (but don't yet).
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> On 16 August 2017 at 11:20, Dave F  wrote:
>>>

 On 16/08/2017 00:22, Warin wrote:

> On 16-Aug-17 05:27 AM, Philip Barnes wrote:
>
>>   The wiki is after all intended to document how people map not
>> dictate how they should map.
>>
>
> I would think that the wiki should guide to the best mapping method,
> not what people have done in the past (as found using taginfo for 
> example!).
>

 +1

 DaveF


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>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ben Proctor, Technical Director
>>
>> *The Satori Lab*, 22 Windsor Place Cardiff. CF10 3BY Wales, UK
>> 
>>
>> b...@satorilab.org | @likeawor d | 07904
>> 1234 98 | LinkedIn 
>>
>> We provide culture change services
>> 
>>  |
>> 

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Hi Miguel

Thanks for the thoughts.

Personally I'm against bilingual labelling though I recognise that this is
common and uncontroversial in other parts of OSM.

My thought process has been like this:

   - There is no single name for many places. In Wales most places have a
   name that they are called when communicating in English and a name that
   they are called when communicating in Welsh. In neither language are both
   names used.
   - So the most important thing is that we label them with the English and
   Welsh name tags.
   - What then should we include in the "name" tag? Including both
   alternates seems, at first sight, like an attractive solution.
   - But what about the city of Henffordd or the town of Amwythig? They
   have Welsh names and English names so the logic would be to use both in the
   name tag. Except Hereford - Henffordd and Shrewsbury - Amwythig are in
   England and, I suspect, there would not be support to use bilingual names
   in OSM outside of the current boundary of Wales. I don't challenge that but
   I'd see it as a political judgement about the boundaries of Wales and the
   status of the Welsh language within the United Kingdom rather than a
   mapping decision.
   - In the UK generally "name" refers to the name by which it is known
   when communicating in English. It seems most straightforward, and least
   politically fraught, to me to continue this practice in Wales,.
   - The fundamental problem is that there is no "name" which is correct.
   In the medium term, as long as the name:cy and name:en are correct then the
   value of "name" should become less significant. Then it can be up to the
   user to decide if they want to display English, Welsh or both (and if both
   which language taking priority).

To address your specific question [3] what I would do when seeing a panel
displaying the Welsh and English name would be to add the values to name:en
and name:cy and then add one of those to the name tag. The choice of which
one to add to the name tag would be:
- if I know which one is used when communicating in English, choose that
- of I don't know, choose the Welsh name

But I'd be interested to understand more about the practice used in other
bilingual/multilingual nations on OSM.

Cheers

Ben


On 23 March 2018 at 23:49, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo 
wrote:

> Great initiative! Congratulations Ben,
>
> I'm sure you have more knowledge than me about the use of Welsh but I'd
> considerate an other the option for your propose for the generic "name"
> tag: the bilingual one.
>
> So, as I suggested last summer [1], and it was in the previous edition of
> the wiki, I'd use, for some situations (e.g. Aberytwyth street names) both
> languages in "name" tag with a "/" as separation following the indications
> and panels you could see in the field [2]. I guess It is a neutral an a
> real bilingual approach for a non English or Welsh render of OSM maps.
>
> What do you expect if I'm editing OSM in the ground and I see a bilingual
> panels to fill for the name tag? Well, I did what I saw: a bilingual name
> as you could see in other bilingual places of the World like Basque Country
> [3].
>
> Cheers
>
> Miguel
>
> [1] follow this threat from the beginning: https://lists.openstreetmap.
> org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020465.html
> [2] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/j1ngoo9wTxbfXfnMdcEGVA
> [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Spain
>
> --
> *Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
> Doctor en Geografía
>
> On 23 March 2018 at 17:04, Ben Proctor  wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I was lurking on this list when the original discussion started and it
>> was in my head when someone approached me about running a mapping project
>> in Wales. We've been using a little Welsh Government funding to support a
>> Welsh Language render of osm (currently just covering Wales)
>> https://openstreetmap.cymru . We've also been raising the profile of osm
>> in Wales, particularly in Welsh speaking communities. We hope to continue
>> this work over the coming months and grow a stronger osm community in
>> Wales. Here are the blogs about the project in English
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/tag/mapiocymru/ and in Welsh
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/tag/mapiocymru/
>>
>> We've been discussing the issue of multi-language tagging as part of this
>> project and we would like to propose an update to the Welsh language
>> section of the Wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org
>> /wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>>
>> I'd appreciate any comment and thoughts.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Ben
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Wales is a bilingual country and many place names have both English and
>> Welsh versions. When communicating in English some places are known by
>> their Welsh name and some by their English name. When communicating in
>> Welsh all places are know by their Welsh name. Bilingual names (English and
>> Welsh versions) are not used in Wales. *
>>
>> *In general the