Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] HS2 phase 1 updates - Solihull interchange station

[Brian Prangle]

Thanks for the update Andy: drove past there on Sunday and things have
moved on considerably. I've updated appropriately. Do you think it's
necessary to have the compounds identified by name and entrance? They're
going to be around for a couple of years and folk will need to get to them.
I've also updated  some demolition areas in Birmingham. I'm on the updates
list for HS2 for Warwicks and Birmingham now. Do you think it would be a
good idea for OSMers to adopt a stretch of the HS2 route and keep an eye on
it - possible set HS2 up as a UK OSM national project with its own wiki
page ( you might already have done this). Thanks for all your sterling
efforts in getting the data in.

Regards and Merry Xmas

Brian

On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 at 16:29, Andy Robinson  wrote:

> The link below provides info on compounds and new highway bridge structures
> being set-up and constructed next year in and around the proposed
> interchange station by the NEC.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/rmspe8q
>
> Cheers
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?

[Roger Calvert]

Round here (Cumbria), that would have sheep on it. When I did school 
geography, it was called Rough Pasture.


Roger

On 16/12/2019 14:13, Martin Wynne wrote:
I'm happy to use "farmland" to mean cultivated land, whether for cash 
crops, pasture for livestock, haymaking, any farming activity.


But I keep finding myself on land for which none of the available tags 
really seem to apply. There seems to be one missing. For example:


 http://85a.uk/bredon_960x640.jpg

Beyond the hedge is clearly farmland. But I don't think any of 
farmland/grassland/scrub/meadow properly describes the foreground 
area. I believe the technical term is "unimproved grassland" but I 
would most likely call it "hillside". Here is some more of it:


 http://85a.uk/bredon1_960x640.jpg

Is it perhaps "heath"? That usually means an open level area of 
"heather", on acidic sandy soil. The wiki says: "don't use heath for 
areas primarily covered by non-woody plants like grasses - use 
natural=grassland or landuse=meadow instead".


cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?

[Martin Wynne]

I'm happy to use "farmland" to mean cultivated land, whether for cash 
crops, pasture for livestock, haymaking, any farming activity.


But I keep finding myself on land for which none of the available tags 
really seem to apply. There seems to be one missing. For example:


 http://85a.uk/bredon_960x640.jpg

Beyond the hedge is clearly farmland. But I don't think any of 
farmland/grassland/scrub/meadow properly describes the foreground area. 
I believe the technical term is "unimproved grassland" but I would most 
likely call it "hillside". Here is some more of it:


 http://85a.uk/bredon1_960x640.jpg

Is it perhaps "heath"? That usually means an open level area of 
"heather", on acidic sandy soil. The wiki says: "don't use heath for 
areas primarily covered by non-woody plants like grasses - use 
natural=grassland or landuse=meadow instead".


cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?

[SK53]

I tend to map to field boundaries: it's all farmland in my view, just not
necessarily productive. In particular strips of grass around arable may be
a short-term consequence of various subsidy schemes, or game cover crops.
Many ditches are there to improve the drainage of the fields so I'd see
them as an integral part of farmland. Similarly hedges, although now
protected, were an essential means of stock control in the days when many
farms were mixed (as they were in my childhood) and fields may have
regularly rotated between pasture & arable.

One type of vegetation on unproductive farmland which is quite common is
"tall herb". These might be the very unwelcome swathe of nettles in a field
corner where the plough cant reach, or thistles & Great Willowherb along a
slope down to a stream (these are classes C3.1 & C3.2 in the Phase 1
habitat classification, see wiki
),
but also stands of Japanese Knotweed or Rosebay Willowherb. They are
distinct from scrub because they die down in winter, although dead stems
may remain.

Jerry

On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 at 12:34, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 16/12/2019 11:59, Gareth L wrote:
>
> I’m all for using a polygon per field, but am unsure what to do at the 
> boundaries. Do I make 2 field polygons meet? Or leave a gap as there’s a 
> track/hedge/fence/small coppice/ ditch/drain ? I’m probably not going to be 
> able to map the boundary particularly accurately in a first pass, so would 
> rather omit than put in inaccurate barriers
>
>
> If it helps, here's what I tend to do:
>
>- Firstly, I only tend to add farmland etc. after I've added fences,
>walls, ditches, gates, bits of woodland etc. (it's just easier that way
>around).
>- If the crop extends right up to the hedge, I'd tend to have the
>hedge sharing nodes with both fields.
>- If there's a ditch, track or other separating feature I'd try and
>draw the hedges either side (if they exist) and have the farmland not
>sharing nodes with the ditch but with the hedge (if it exists).  Similarly
>I wouldn't attach farmland to roads.
>- If there's an uncultivated strip around the edge of the field I
>wouldn't tend to include that in the "field".  Similarly if an area is left
>as scrub (perhaps to wet for crops), I'd map as scrub.
>
> None of this is definitive - people have different approaches.  If you
> want examples of the above, have a look in my changeset history from > 3
> months ago in the East Riding of Yorkshire for example
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/75049826 etc.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?

[Philip Barnes]

On Monday, 16 December 2019, Gareth L wrote:
> I’m all for using a polygon per field, but am unsure what to do at the 
> boundaries. Do I make 2 field polygons meet? Or leave a gap as there’s a 
> track/hedge/fence/small coppice/ ditch/drain ? I’m probably not going to be 
> able to map the boundary particularly accurately in a first pass, so would 
> rather omit than put in inaccurate barriers 
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
I map fields so that the join, the draw the barrier along the boundaries.

I did have a play with how farmland could look using SomeoneElses style.

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/8437076/70870550-98f07780-1f8c-11ea-8be2-121003d9f3a0.png

Phil (trigpoint) 

-- 
Sent from my Sailfish device
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Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?

[Andy Townsend]

On 16/12/2019 11:59, Gareth L wrote:

I’m all for using a polygon per field, but am unsure what to do at the 
boundaries. Do I make 2 field polygons meet? Or leave a gap as there’s a 
track/hedge/fence/small coppice/ ditch/drain ? I’m probably not going to be 
able to map the boundary particularly accurately in a first pass, so would 
rather omit than put in inaccurate barriers


If it helps, here's what I tend to do:

 * Firstly, I only tend to add farmland etc. after I've added fences,
   walls, ditches, gates, bits of woodland etc. (it's just easier that
   way around).
 * If the crop extends right up to the hedge, I'd tend to have the
   hedge sharing nodes with both fields.
 * If there's a ditch, track or other separating feature I'd try and
   draw the hedges either side (if they exist) and have the farmland
   not sharing nodes with the ditch but with the hedge (if it exists). 
   Similarly I wouldn't attach farmland to roads.
 * If there's an uncultivated strip around the edge of the field I
   wouldn't tend to include that in the "field".  Similarly if an area
   is left as scrub (perhaps to wet for crops), I'd map as scrub.

None of this is definitive - people have different approaches. If you 
want examples of the above, have a look in my changeset history from > 3 
months ago in the East Riding of Yorkshire for example 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/75049826 etc.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?

[Gareth L]

I’m all for using a polygon per field, but am unsure what to do at the 
boundaries. Do I make 2 field polygons meet? Or leave a gap as there’s a 
track/hedge/fence/small coppice/ ditch/drain ? I’m probably not going to be 
able to map the boundary particularly accurately in a first pass, so would 
rather omit than put in inaccurate barriers 

Any suggestions?

Gareth 

> On 16 Dec 2019, at 11:38, Tony OSM  wrote:
> 
> Mapping Fields - preferred method I think is individual fields, or at least 
> polygons which are based on road or natural boundaries. Mea Culpa - I have 
> also mapped farmland as larger polygons.
> 
> Large polygons make life difficult when a field changes use - near where I 
> live it becomes scrub for several years before being developed for 
> housing/industrial/retail.
> 
>> On 16/12/2019 10:21, Philip Barnes wrote:
>>> On Monday, 16 December 2019, David Groom wrote:
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Dave F via Talk-GB" 
>>> To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
>>> Sent: 14/12/2019 15:54:13
>>> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?
>>> 
 On 14/12/2019 15:19, Martin Wynne wrote:
> Is this "farmland"?
> 
>  http://85a.uk/haws_hill_960x600.jpg
 I would say yes, as I believe both arable & livestock is farmland.
 
 I concur with your frustration about 'huge multi polygons', especially 
 when joined to other features such as roads & rivers. I believe a few 
 mappers were keen to fill in the gaps rather than map accurately. 
 Personally I think there should be one polygon per field, but I admit that 
 makes for a lot more work.
 
>>> I see no benefit to mapping individual fields as separate polygons
>>> tagged as farmland if adjacent fields are also farmland. Could you
>>> explain why you think this is best?
>>> 
>>> David
>>> 
>> Large polygons make future editing very difficult.
>> 
>> It is very beneficial to differentiate between arable, pasture and hopefully 
>> we can get real meadow back from the misuse it has received.
>> 
>> Farming use changes, mapping individual fields allows farmland types or 
>> other changes to be maintained far easier than if it is part of a huge 
>> polygon.
>> 
>> All in all it goes to make for a better more usable map.
>> 
>> Phil (trigpoint)
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?

[SK53]

One thing for me is that if walking in the winter knowing that a particular
field which a footpath crosses is arable can be very useful. If have COPD
(around 40% lung capacity) and walking across a recently ploughed field can
push me past the level where my breathing can cope. Obviously I therefore
like to avoid such places if I can or plan for them in calculating route
time (probably a factor of 4 or 5 over what one might expect from actual
distance).

I think there are over 1 million people with COPD in Britain, so I'm
probably not alone. I suspect many just avoid exposing themselves to such
situations:

There are other reasons which others have alluded too.

Jerry

On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 at 10:09, David Groom  wrote:

> -- Original Message --
> From: "Dave F via Talk-GB" 
> To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
> Sent: 14/12/2019 15:54:13
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?
>
> On 14/12/2019 15:19, Martin Wynne wrote:
>
>
> Is this "farmland"?
>
>  http://85a.uk/haws_hill_960x600.jpg
>
>
> I would say yes, as I believe both arable & livestock is farmland.
>
> I concur with your frustration about 'huge multi polygons', especially
> when joined to other features such as roads & rivers. I believe a few
> mappers were keen to fill in the gaps rather than map accurately.
> Personally I think there should be one polygon per field, but I admit that
> makes for a lot more work.
>
> I see no benefit to mapping individual fields as separate polygons tagged
> as farmland if adjacent fields are also farmland. Could you explain why you
> think this is best?
>
> David
>
>
>
> Cheers
> DaveF
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?

[Tony OSM]

Mapping Fields - preferred method I think is individual fields, or at 
least polygons which are based on road or natural boundaries. Mea Culpa 
- I have also mapped farmland as larger polygons.


Large polygons make life difficult when a field changes use - near where 
I live it becomes scrub for several years before being developed for 
housing/industrial/retail.


On 16/12/2019 10:21, Philip Barnes wrote:

On Monday, 16 December 2019, David Groom wrote:

-- Original Message --
From: "Dave F via Talk-GB" 
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Sent: 14/12/2019 15:54:13
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?


On 14/12/2019 15:19, Martin Wynne wrote:

Is this "farmland"?

  http://85a.uk/haws_hill_960x600.jpg

I would say yes, as I believe both arable & livestock is farmland.

I concur with your frustration about 'huge multi polygons', especially when joined 
to other features such as roads & rivers. I believe a few mappers were keen to 
fill in the gaps rather than map accurately. Personally I think there should be one 
polygon per field, but I admit that makes for a lot more work.


I see no benefit to mapping individual fields as separate polygons
tagged as farmland if adjacent fields are also farmland. Could you
explain why you think this is best?

David


Large polygons make future editing very difficult.

It is very beneficial to differentiate between arable, pasture and hopefully we 
can get real meadow back from the misuse it has received.

Farming use changes, mapping individual fields allows farmland types or other 
changes to be maintained far easier than if it is part of a huge polygon.

All in all it goes to make for a better more usable map.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?

[Tony OSM]

I have always thought that farmland as an English word means land used 
for production by growing things - cabbages, cows etc. Hierarchy then 
led to arable, pasture, horticulture. But what do you do with managed 
woodland eg coppiced or pollarded or left to semi-wild animal 
populations eg deer, swine?


Fields also have a habit of having several uses determined by a farmer  
- pasture/grass for silage, arable/grazing stubble. These also change 
over time.


Climate has a highly important role in determining what farming is 
carried out - west side of England is predominantly pasture, east side 
of England predominantly arable. Wales and Scotland also have altitude 
to modify farming practice


Can we agree a hierarchy and notation method to this deceptively simple 
question and then update the wiki.


Tony

TonyS999

On 16/12/2019 10:21, Philip Barnes wrote:

On Monday, 16 December 2019, David Groom wrote:

-- Original Message --
From: "Dave F via Talk-GB" 
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Sent: 14/12/2019 15:54:13
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?


On 14/12/2019 15:19, Martin Wynne wrote:

Is this "farmland"?

  http://85a.uk/haws_hill_960x600.jpg

I would say yes, as I believe both arable & livestock is farmland.

I concur with your frustration about 'huge multi polygons', especially when joined 
to other features such as roads & rivers. I believe a few mappers were keen to 
fill in the gaps rather than map accurately. Personally I think there should be one 
polygon per field, but I admit that makes for a lot more work.


I see no benefit to mapping individual fields as separate polygons
tagged as farmland if adjacent fields are also farmland. Could you
explain why you think this is best?

David


Large polygons make future editing very difficult.

It is very beneficial to differentiate between arable, pasture and hopefully we 
can get real meadow back from the misuse it has received.

Farming use changes, mapping individual fields allows farmland types or other 
changes to be maintained far easier than if it is part of a huge polygon.

All in all it goes to make for a better more usable map.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

16 Dec 2019, 11:07 by revi...@pacific-rim.net:

> -- Original Message --
> From: "Dave F via Talk-GB" <> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> >
> To: > talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
> Sent: 14/12/2019 15:54:13
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?
>
>
>> On 14/12/2019 15:19, Martin Wynne wrote:
>>
>>>  
>>> Is this "farmland"?
>>>  
>>>  >>> http://85a.uk/haws_hill_960x600.jpg
>>>
>>  
>> I would say yes, as I believe both arable & livestock is farmland.
>>  
>> I concur with your frustration about 'huge multi polygons', especially when 
>> joined to other features such as roads & rivers. I believe a few mappers 
>> were keen to fill in the gaps rather than map accurately. Personally I think 
>> there should be one polygon per field, but I admit that makes for a lot more 
>> work.
>>
>>
> I see no benefit to mapping individual fields as separate polygons tagged as 
> farmland if adjacent fields are also farmland.  Could you explain why you 
> think this is best?
>
Allows to distinguish between one huge
field and multiple small, less likely to
degenerate into uneditable multipolygon
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Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?

[David Woolley]

On 16/12/2019 10:07, David Groom wrote:
I see no benefit to mapping individual fields as separate polygons 
tagged as farmland if adjacent fields are also farmland. Could you 
explain why you think this is best?




I see no reason why mapping individual fields would not be an objective 
for OSM.  In that case, tagging them as farmland seems the sensible 
thing to do.


As always, the level of detail will depend on the priorities of mappers, 
and if no-one in the area is interested in fields, the detail might be 
limited to tens of square kilometres.


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Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?

[David Groom]

-- Original Message --
From: "Dave F via Talk-GB" 
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Sent: 14/12/2019 15:54:13
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] What is farmland?


On 14/12/2019 15:19, Martin Wynne wrote:


Is this "farmland"?

 http://85a.uk/haws_hill_960x600.jpg


I would say yes, as I believe both arable & livestock is farmland.

I concur with your frustration about 'huge multi polygons', especially when joined 
to other features such as roads & rivers. I believe a few mappers were keen to 
fill in the gaps rather than map accurately. Personally I think there should be one 
polygon per field, but I admit that makes for a lot more work.

I see no benefit to mapping individual fields as separate polygons 
tagged as farmland if adjacent fields are also farmland. Could you 
explain why you think this is best?


David




Cheers
DaveF

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