Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project Suggestion - drink_water:refill

[European Water Project]

Dear Andy,

If Refill.org.uk  were to "license" their data to OSM, under what terms
would that be concretely?  I don't want to misspeak (not show my total
ignorance on the subject) when I talk to Rebecca Burgess, the Refill CEO on
Tuesday.

In the unlikely event that Refill's position changes, with whom can I put
her in contact with?

Best regards,

Stuart

On Sat, Mar 14, 2020, 21:10 Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 at 11:27, Jake Edmonds via Talk-GB
>  wrote:
> >
> >  I understand Refill.org.uk are unwilling to license their data.
>
> They said this in July 2017:
>
>https://twitter.com/Refill/status/31637345234945
>
> I've been pressing them on the point of open licensing, recently:
>
>https://twitter.com/pigsonthewing/status/1216689988357718018
>
> and have again today chased them for a response:
>
>https://twitter.com/pigsonthewing/status/1238919492568260609
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @Pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project Suggestion - drink_water:refill

[European Water Project]

In response to the question regarding the tagging the network name with the
drinking_water:refill:network key, there is value for a network which
becomes an open data partner and takes ownership for maintaining the
accuracy of "their" network. Extracting via the overpass API all
establishments that belong to a specific refill network I think will
facilitate this maintenance by mappers and network owners.


Proper database maintenance for establishments is especially important,
given the current half-life of cafés and restaurants.

Best regards,

Stuart


On Sat, Mar 14, 2020, 21:33 Jake Edmonds via Talk-GB <
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On 14 Mar 2020, at 21:21, Mark Goodge  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 14/03/2020 19:36, Jake Edmonds wrote:
> >>> On 14 Mar 2020, at 20:09, Mark Goodge  m...@good-stuff.co.uk>> wrote:
> >
> >>> If we do come up with an agreed tagging system, I'd be happy to add
> tags for all the establishments in my town that I know offer this service.
> >> Maybe you have already seen them, but here is a link to the recently
> approved tags. Do you have any thoughts?
> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Adrinking_water%3Arefill
> >
> > That seems reasonable. My only real concern is that tagging as part of a
> network could cause the network to think that we are re-creating their
> proprietary database. I'd prefer to stick with a simple
> drinking_water:refill=yes
> Is that a concern from a legal standpoint or an attempt to keep a good
> relationship between OSM and Refill (or any other network?)
> As a consumer, I’m looking for a place to refill my bottle, I’m not so
> concerned about which network the establishment is part of. Maybe I missed
> it, but I can’t remember any discuss from the proposal about why
> drink_water:refill:network was needed, maybe Stuart can clarify?
>
> But could the same thing be said about most brand related tags in OSM?
>
> >
> >>> And I could do that purely by observation; I don't have the Refill app
> or any other insight into their database, so there's no danger of adding
> non-free data to OSM. I'm sure that there are plenty of other people up and
> down the country who would be in a similar position.
> >> Another way to avoid any worry of users submitting non-free data is to
> make storefront photos part of the project.
> >
> > Possibly, although that makes it less likely that we'll get a critical
> mass of contributions. I could tag several establishments in my town from
> memory. Having to go back and photograph them would be an additional
> barrier.
>
> Of course, I certainly didn’t mean to suggest it as a requirement but more
> of an optional extension that would serve to both give users greater detail
> and help contributors ‘prove’ that they were not copy Refills data.
>
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project Suggestion - drink_water:refill

[Jake Edmonds via Talk-GB]

> On 14 Mar 2020, at 21:21, Mark Goodge  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 14/03/2020 19:36, Jake Edmonds wrote:
>>> On 14 Mar 2020, at 20:09, Mark Goodge >> > wrote:
> 
>>> If we do come up with an agreed tagging system, I'd be happy to add tags 
>>> for all the establishments in my town that I know offer this service. 
>> Maybe you have already seen them, but here is a link to the recently 
>> approved tags. Do you have any thoughts?
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Adrinking_water%3Arefill
> 
> That seems reasonable. My only real concern is that tagging as part of a 
> network could cause the network to think that we are re-creating their 
> proprietary database. I'd prefer to stick with a simple 
> drinking_water:refill=yes
Is that a concern from a legal standpoint or an attempt to keep a good 
relationship between OSM and Refill (or any other network?)
As a consumer, I’m looking for a place to refill my bottle, I’m not so 
concerned about which network the establishment is part of. Maybe I missed it, 
but I can’t remember any discuss from the proposal about why 
drink_water:refill:network was needed, maybe Stuart can clarify?

But could the same thing be said about most brand related tags in OSM?

> 
>>> And I could do that purely by observation; I don't have the Refill app or 
>>> any other insight into their database, so there's no danger of adding 
>>> non-free data to OSM. I'm sure that there are plenty of other people up and 
>>> down the country who would be in a similar position.
>> Another way to avoid any worry of users submitting non-free data is to make 
>> storefront photos part of the project.
> 
> Possibly, although that makes it less likely that we'll get a critical mass 
> of contributions. I could tag several establishments in my town from memory. 
> Having to go back and photograph them would be an additional barrier.

Of course, I certainly didn’t mean to suggest it as a requirement but more of 
an optional extension that would serve to both give users greater detail and 
help contributors ‘prove’ that they were not copy Refills data.

> 
> Mark
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project Suggestion - drink_water:refill

[Mark Goodge]

On 14/03/2020 19:36, Jake Edmonds wrote:



On 14 Mar 2020, at 20:09, Mark Goodge > wrote:


If we do come up with an agreed tagging system, I'd be happy to add 
tags for all the establishments in my town that I know offer this 
service. 


Maybe you have already seen them, but here is a link to the recently 
approved tags. Do you have any thoughts?


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Adrinking_water%3Arefill


That seems reasonable. My only real concern is that tagging as part of a 
network could cause the network to think that we are re-creating their 
proprietary database. I'd prefer to stick with a simple 
drinking_water:refill=yes




And I could do that purely by observation; I don't have the Refill app 
or any other insight into their database, so there's no danger of 
adding non-free data to OSM. I'm sure that there are plenty of other 
people up and down the country who would be in a similar position.


Another way to avoid any worry of users submitting non-free data is to 
make storefront photos part of the project.


Possibly, although that makes it less likely that we'll get a critical 
mass of contributions. I could tag several establishments in my town 
from memory. Having to go back and photograph them would be an 
additional barrier.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project Suggestion - drink_water:refill

[Andy Mabbett]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 at 11:27, Jake Edmonds via Talk-GB
 wrote:
>
>  I understand Refill.org.uk are unwilling to license their data.

They said this in July 2017:

   https://twitter.com/Refill/status/31637345234945

I've been pressing them on the point of open licensing, recently:

   https://twitter.com/pigsonthewing/status/1216689988357718018

and have again today chased them for a response:

   https://twitter.com/pigsonthewing/status/1238919492568260609

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@Pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project Suggestion - drink_water:refill

[Mark Goodge]

On 14/03/2020 17:45, Philip Barnes wrote:

They do seem very secretive about the locations of these outlets, there 
appears to be no indication on their website even beyond there may be 
one somewhere in this area.


They came to the council that I sit on to ask for grant funding to get 
the scheme up and running in our area. One of the objections raised at 
the time was the lack of transparency around the scheme, and in 
particular the fact that if we did fund it, we appeared to be locking 
ourselves into a proprietary system if we wanted to promote it. Although 
a small amount of funding was approved, I suspect that it will not be 
if/when they come back to us for more. It does, unfortunately, seem to 
have more the feel of a device to sell branded water bottles than a 
genuine public service.


As it stands it does not appear to be a viable quarterly project. We 
have no indication of how common these places are, or their geographical 
spread meaning it is not a project all mappers can participate in.


I would disagree with this. I think that an observation-based database 
of establishments offering free water is, potentially, very useful. But 
it needs a certain critical mass to work, and it needs the help of 
people who can act as local observers. It seems to me that the OSM 
community is a good place to find that.


If we do come up with an agreed tagging system, I'd be happy to add tags 
for all the establishments in my town that I know offer this service. 
And I could do that purely by observation; I don't have the Refill app 
or any other insight into their database, so there's no danger of adding 
non-free data to OSM. I'm sure that there are plenty of other people up 
and down the country who would be in a similar position.



Also are these bottles just another 'single use' 'bag for life >
Like bags for life, their reuse is heavily dependent on them being 
remembered next time, and most people forget to take them, or leave home 
not realising they will even need them.


People are beginning to get more used to doing that, though. A lot of 
coffee shop chains offer a discount for people bringing a re-usable cup. 
Waitrose gives customers free coffee if they have a re-usable cup. So 
the principle is taking hold.


Mark

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[Talk-GB] Ficticious embankments?

[ael]

I have just noticed some new "Embankments" added around a fortnight ago.
These were added to some stone circles in Cornwall which I know well and
have extensively surveyed. There is no trace of any embankments. No
source was given and the user does not appear to be local.

I have added a changeset comment.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/81640861


I looked at the user's recent changesets, and saw similar additions to
other ancient monuments: the top of the list was the Rollright Stones.

I don't know the Rollright stones well enough to know whether there is a
real embankment there. But I suspect this is tagging for the renderer to
make ancient monumnets more obvious on the standard map.

I suggest that every one check their local historic sites for any 
unjustified modifications.

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project Suggestion - drink_water:refill

[European Water Project]

Hi Phil,

I respect your opinion about the fit for the Quarterly Project. I don't
know enough about the project criteria to have an opinion - even if I am
passionate on the subject.

With respect to the locations, there are about 25,000 in the UK and
Northern Ireland.

The establishments don't sell reusable water bottles, they just offer free
water bottle refill to everyone as part of the battle against single-use
plastic.

Maybe a call to map on an adhoc basis is more appropriate.

I will report back with feedback on my call on Tuesday.

Best regards,

Stuart


On Sat, Mar 14, 2020, 18:46 Philip Barnes  wrote:

> On Sat, 2020-03-14 at 12:17 +0100, European Water Project wrote:
>
> Dear Jez,
>
> Gus Hoyt who was responsible at Refill UK (before being made redundant),
> for all partnerships was a vocal proponent of collaboration and open data.
>
> Unfortunately, the Refill board has consistently voted to keep their data
> proprietary to support their revenue model based on paid partnerships and
> margins on Chilly bottles.
>
> On one hand, I am very impressed by the achievements Refill UK has made
> and their significant impact in combatting single-use plastic so I really
> hope them success.  On the other hand, I think collaboration and open data
> is a better model for the creation and maintenance of a global network of
> water fountains and commercial establishments where anyone can refill their
> reusable water bottle without creating single-use waste.
>
> I will send out call notes next week.
>
> They do seem very secretive about the locations of these outlets, there
> appears to be no indication on their website even beyond there may be one
> somewhere in this area.
>
> As it stands it does not appear to be a viable quarterly project. We have
> no indication of how common these places are, or their geographical spread
> meaning it is not a project all mappers can participate in.
>
> Also are these bottles just another 'single use' 'bag for life'?
>
> Like bags for life, their reuse is heavily dependent on them being
> remembered next time, and most people forget to take them, or leave home
> not realising they will even need them.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project Suggestion - drink_water:refill

[Philip Barnes]

On Sat, 2020-03-14 at 12:17 +0100, European Water Project wrote:
> Dear Jez,
> Gus Hoyt who was responsible at Refill UK (before being made
> redundant), for all partnerships was a vocal proponent of
> collaboration and open data.  
> 
> Unfortunately, the Refill board has consistently voted to keep their
> data proprietary to support their revenue model based on paid
> partnerships and margins on Chilly bottles. 
> 
> On one hand, I am very impressed by the achievements Refill UK has
> made and their significant impact in combatting single-use plastic so
> I really hope them success.  On the other hand, I think collaboration
> and open data is a better model for the creation and maintenance of a
> global network of water fountains and commercial establishments where
> anyone can refill their reusable water bottle without creating
> single-use waste. 
> 
> I will send out call notes next week. 
> 
They do seem very secretive about the locations of these outlets, there
appears to be no indication on their website even beyond there may be
one somewhere in this area. 

As it stands it does not appear to be a viable quarterly project. We
have no indication of how common these places are, or their
geographical spread meaning it is not a project all mappers can
participate in.

Also are these bottles just another 'single use' 'bag for life'?  
Like bags for life, their reuse is heavily dependent on them being
remembered next time, and most people forget to take them, or leave
home not realising they will even need them.

Phil (trigpoint)



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Re: [Talk-GB] C roads again

[Chris Fleming]

On 08/03/20 at 08:22pm, Andy Townsend wrote:

  On 08/03/2020 19:57, Andrew Hain wrote:

Is there a resource I can point anyone who puts C numbers in the ref
tag of roads at?

Possibly the best place is previous discussions on this list, or
links from there?

  It's perhaps also worth mentioning that C roads in Scotland in OSM are
  still mostly unsigned but retain ref tags - that was a decision of the
  local community there, if I remember correctly. Northern Ireland
  (normally discussed via talk-ie rather than here) also has quite a
  few.

I don't think that we reached a decision in Scotland; just one
particular mapper that particular likes them, I generally move them to
highway_authority_ref if I see them.

Cheers
Chris
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Re: [Talk-GB] Abusive posts

[Brian Prangle]

Thanks Matthew


On Sat, 14 Mar 2020, 12:14 Matthew Newton, <
matthew-...@newtoncomputing.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Seen all the messages. Apologies for the delay in sorting this.
>
> In all the years I've been monitoring this list I don't ever recall
> seeing behaviour like that. It most certainly isn't acceptable. Minor
> disagreements at times, sure, but outright abuse is way over the top.
>
> He's gone.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Matthew
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] List moderator - volunteers needed

[Matthew Newton]

On Sat, 2020-03-14 at 12:21 +, Rob Nickerson wrote:
> Oops, I've just seen Matthew's post.
> 
> @Matthew: I agree, this is rare. Are you happy with continuing to
> support the talk-gb list on your own or will extra volunteers help?

Generally there's not anything to do, this is a well behaved list! So
it's not an arduous task. Like many subscribers I lurk more than post
these days, but do follow what's going on every day or two.

Just happen to be ill for the last couple of days so taking a while to
get anything done, then needed the password reset (which is also an
indication of how much "looking after" this list usually needs!)

Matthew



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Re: [Talk-GB] List moderator - volunteers needed

[Matthew Newton]

On Sat, 2020-03-14 at 12:16 +, Rob Nickerson wrote:
> 
> Are we allowed to know the person's name? The wiki refers to Matthew
> Newton but I wasn't sure if this was still correct.

Yup, that's still my name. :)

Cheers,

Matthew



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[Talk-GB] Related map vandalism reverted (was: List moderator - volunteers needed)

[Andy Townsend]

As an aside, I've recently (with a DWG hat on) reverted some "schoolkid 
vandalism" by an account with a similar-sounding name in 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/82191956 , and asked the user to 
get in contact via https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/3559 and an 
OSM PM with the same text in it.


It's worth bearing in mind that the user sending the problem mails to 
the list and making the recent problem edits might not be the same 
person who made the initial edits from that OSM account. Sometimes 
people use the same password for many sites (especially ones that they 
don't believe to be "high value" to them - e.g. not bank accounts etc.) 
and there have been examples of people's old OSM accounts being 
"reused", presumably by people with access to a breach of another 
website (email addresses that I've used have been involved in 3 or 4 
that I know of).  We've also seen credible examples of "someone's little 
brother at the keyboard" doing this sort of edit, with no further ill 
effects once the account owner became a bit more savvy about locking the 
PC prior to leaving it unattended.


Best Regards,

Andy

On 14/03/2020 11:13, Rob Nickerson wrote:

Hi all,

As may have seen in Simon's response it sounds like we currently lack 
list moderators. If this is something you would like to do please 
email this mailing list.


Likewise we probably need to think about the criteria of what makes a 
good list moderator. If there are any traits that you'd like to see in 
a mailing list moderator please share with this mailing list.


Thanks,
Rob

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Re: [Talk-GB] Abusive posts

[Peter Neale via Talk-GB]

Hi Matthew,
Thanks for dealing with this.
I'm just glad that it is so rare.
Regards,Peter
On Saturday, 14 March 2020, 12:14:46 GMT, Matthew Newton 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi all,

Seen all the messages. Apologies for the delay in sorting this.

In all the years I've been monitoring this list I don't ever recall
seeing behaviour like that. It most certainly isn't acceptable. Minor
disagreements at times, sure, but outright abuse is way over the top.

He's gone.

Cheers,

Matthew



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Re: [Talk-GB] List moderator - volunteers needed

[Rob Nickerson]

Oops, I've just seen Matthew's post.

@Matthew: I agree, this is rare. Are you happy with continuing to support
the talk-gb list on your own or will extra volunteers help?

Regards
Rob

On Sat, 14 Mar 2020, 12:16 Rob Nickerson,  wrote:

> Thanks for the clarification Tom.
>
> Are we allowed to know the person's name? The wiki refers to Matthew
> Newton but I wasn't sure if this was still correct.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
> Thanks
> Rob
>
>
> On Sat, 14 Mar 2020, 11:38 Tom Hughes,  wrote:
>
>> On 14/03/2020 11:37, Dan S wrote:
>> > Op za 14 mrt. 2020 om 11:20 schreef Tom Hughes via Talk-GB
>> > :
>> >>
>> >> On 14/03/2020 11:13, Rob Nickerson wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> As may have seen in Simon's response it sounds like we currently lack
>> >>> list moderators. If this is something you would like to do please
>> email
>> >>> this mailing list.
>> >>>
>> >>> Likewise we probably need to think about the criteria of what makes a
>> >>> good list moderator. If there are any traits that you'd like to see
>> in a
>> >>> mailing list moderator please share with this mailing list.
>> >>
>> >> Just to clarify what Simon said a bit before you all get carried
>> >> away, there absolutely is a list administrator and there is evidence
>> >> that they are processing the moderation queue.
>> >>
>> >> That's not to say that they are actively reading the messages on
>> >> the list or applying any particular code of conduct.
>> >>
>> >> It does mean however that you can't just choose somebody and ask
>> >> me to make them the list owner - you will need to try and make
>> >> contact with the existing list owner and discuss the situation
>> >> with them before attempting a putsch.
>> >
>> > Do they read messages to the "owner" address more actively?
>> > talk-gb-ow...@openstreetmap.org
>>
>> I have no idea but hopefully.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> --
>> Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
>> http://compton.nu/
>>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] European Water Project - Introduction

[European Water Project]

Hi   dzidek23,

What would be the workflow for adding new establishments and their
associated tags using onosm.org ?

Maybe through on the ground observation, some of the more than 25.000
establishments displaying a Refill UK sticker on their door can start being
added to OSM.  The more places people know they can refill their reusable
water bottle and avoid single-use plastic the better.

We are currently helping Zero Bouteilles Plastiques in France to add their
cafés to OSM and a mapper in Bexill-On-Sea  just added 50 cafés from their
local  scheme.   User nigelramsay
 is looking to see if
Refill NZ might be willing to work with OpenStreetMap in New Zealand.  The
refill network name should be tagged with the drinking_water:refill:network
key.which is part of the newly defined key namespace.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drinking_water:refill


For reference, here are some of the many regional refill schemes (from the
drinking_water:refill wiki):


   - Australia – ChooseTap http://choosetap.com.au/
   - Bulgaria – Zero Waste Sofia European Water Project
   https://europeanwaterproject.org/
   - Cambodia – Refill Asia / RefillMyBottle https://refillasia.com/
   https://refillmybottle.com/
   - Canada – BlueW.org; Tap http://www.bluew.org/
   - Chile – Refill (Santiago de Chile only)
   - Europe - European Water Project https://europeanwaterproject.org/
   - France – Refill / EU Touring (Paris only) /European Water Project
   https://refill.org.uk/ https://europeanwaterproject.org/
   - Germany – Refill Deutschland
   - Greece –Refill https://refill.org.uk/
   - Hongkong – Water for Free https://waterforfree.org/en/
   - India – BluHop https://www.bluhop.com/
   - Indonesia – Refill Asia / RefillMyBottle https://refillasia.com/
   - Ireland – Refill Ireland
   - Italy – Refill / Refill Elba (Elba island only)
   - Japan – MyMizu
   - Laos – Refill Asia / RefillMyBottle https://refillasia.com/
   - Luxemborg –Refill https://refill.org.uk/
   - Switzerland – FILL IT UP
   
http://fillitup.ch/karte.html?fbclid=IwAR0LLkykOD92K24dgHllJtcBconZBYkM9CfrItwK4TLU7xDmdXJnRnlb-n8
   - The Netherlands – Refill / Drinkwaterkaart / Publiek Water
   - New Zealand – RefillNZ
   - Thailand – Refill Asia / RefillMyBottle
   - U.K. – Refill https://refill.org.uk/
   - United States – Tap
   - Vietnam – Refill Asia / RefillMyBottle https://refillasia.com/
   https://refillmybottle.com/
   - Worldwide – Closca https://closca.com/pages/closca-water-app
   - Worldwide – European Water Project https://europeanwaterproject.org/



Best regards,

Stuart

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 22:03, BD  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I quite like the idea of adding free water refill places to the OSM. One
> idea which could not only benefit the European Water Project but OSM as a
> whole is to add a tick box on the onosm.org. I could read something like
> "We do provide free water refills" - link to European Water Project. If we
> would promote the onosm.org a bit more not only numbers of businesses
> aware of/on OSM would increase, + people aware of Water Project. Water
> Project volunteers (if there are any) could direct businesses to onosm.org
> for ease of adding info, this way we would "kill two birds with one stone"
> - as we say where I come from.
>
> cheers,
> dzidek23
>
>
>
> Dnia 13 marca 2020 16:03 talk-gb-requ...@openstreetmap.org napisał(a):
>
> Send Talk-GB mailing list submissions to
> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> talk-gb-requ...@openstreetmap.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> talk-gb-ow...@openstreetmap.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Talk-GB digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>  1. Re: European Water Project - Introduction (Colin Smale)
>  2. Re: European Water Project - Introduction (Tony OSM)
>  3. Cancellation of Nottingham pub meetup scheduled for 17th
> March (SK53)
>  4. Re: European Water Project - Introduction (Peter Neale)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 13:12:15 +0100
> From: Colin Smale 
> To: Daniel Holsey 
> Cc: European Water Project ,
> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] European Water Project - Introduction
> Message-ID: <29886cc9030c6a1cc989733c3fbec...@xs4all.nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Daniel, that is completely uncalled for. If you can't live and let live,
> take your own advice and go procreate somewhere else.
>
> On 2020-03-13 12:27, Daniel Holsey wrote:
>
> Fuck Off
>
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 10:31, European Water Project <
> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> My name is Stuart Rapoport. This my first message on the UK OSM forum, so
> I decided to give an 

Re: [Talk-GB] List moderator - volunteers needed

[Rob Nickerson]

Thanks for the clarification Tom.

Are we allowed to know the person's name? The wiki refers to Matthew Newton
but I wasn't sure if this was still correct.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

Thanks
Rob


On Sat, 14 Mar 2020, 11:38 Tom Hughes,  wrote:

> On 14/03/2020 11:37, Dan S wrote:
> > Op za 14 mrt. 2020 om 11:20 schreef Tom Hughes via Talk-GB
> > :
> >>
> >> On 14/03/2020 11:13, Rob Nickerson wrote:
> >>
> >>> As may have seen in Simon's response it sounds like we currently lack
> >>> list moderators. If this is something you would like to do please email
> >>> this mailing list.
> >>>
> >>> Likewise we probably need to think about the criteria of what makes a
> >>> good list moderator. If there are any traits that you'd like to see in
> a
> >>> mailing list moderator please share with this mailing list.
> >>
> >> Just to clarify what Simon said a bit before you all get carried
> >> away, there absolutely is a list administrator and there is evidence
> >> that they are processing the moderation queue.
> >>
> >> That's not to say that they are actively reading the messages on
> >> the list or applying any particular code of conduct.
> >>
> >> It does mean however that you can't just choose somebody and ask
> >> me to make them the list owner - you will need to try and make
> >> contact with the existing list owner and discuss the situation
> >> with them before attempting a putsch.
> >
> > Do they read messages to the "owner" address more actively?
> > talk-gb-ow...@openstreetmap.org
>
> I have no idea but hopefully.
>
> Tom
>
> --
> Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
> http://compton.nu/
>
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[Talk-GB] Abusive posts

[Matthew Newton]

Hi all,

Seen all the messages. Apologies for the delay in sorting this.

In all the years I've been monitoring this list I don't ever recall
seeing behaviour like that. It most certainly isn't acceptable. Minor
disagreements at times, sure, but outright abuse is way over the top.

He's gone.

Cheers,

Matthew



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Re: [Talk-GB] List moderator - volunteers needed

[Tom Hughes via Talk-GB]

On 14/03/2020 11:37, Dan S wrote:

Op za 14 mrt. 2020 om 11:20 schreef Tom Hughes via Talk-GB
:


On 14/03/2020 11:13, Rob Nickerson wrote:


As may have seen in Simon's response it sounds like we currently lack
list moderators. If this is something you would like to do please email
this mailing list.

Likewise we probably need to think about the criteria of what makes a
good list moderator. If there are any traits that you'd like to see in a
mailing list moderator please share with this mailing list.


Just to clarify what Simon said a bit before you all get carried
away, there absolutely is a list administrator and there is evidence
that they are processing the moderation queue.

That's not to say that they are actively reading the messages on
the list or applying any particular code of conduct.

It does mean however that you can't just choose somebody and ask
me to make them the list owner - you will need to try and make
contact with the existing list owner and discuss the situation
with them before attempting a putsch.


Do they read messages to the "owner" address more actively?
talk-gb-ow...@openstreetmap.org


I have no idea but hopefully.

Tom

--
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Re: [Talk-GB] List moderator - volunteers needed

[Dan S]

Op za 14 mrt. 2020 om 11:20 schreef Tom Hughes via Talk-GB
:
>
> On 14/03/2020 11:13, Rob Nickerson wrote:
>
> > As may have seen in Simon's response it sounds like we currently lack
> > list moderators. If this is something you would like to do please email
> > this mailing list.
> >
> > Likewise we probably need to think about the criteria of what makes a
> > good list moderator. If there are any traits that you'd like to see in a
> > mailing list moderator please share with this mailing list.
>
> Just to clarify what Simon said a bit before you all get carried
> away, there absolutely is a list administrator and there is evidence
> that they are processing the moderation queue.
>
> That's not to say that they are actively reading the messages on
> the list or applying any particular code of conduct.
>
> It does mean however that you can't just choose somebody and ask
> me to make them the list owner - you will need to try and make
> contact with the existing list owner and discuss the situation
> with them before attempting a putsch.

Do they read messages to the "owner" address more actively?
talk-gb-ow...@openstreetmap.org

Best
Dan

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Re: [Talk-GB] List moderator - volunteers needed

[Tom Hughes via Talk-GB]

On 14/03/2020 11:13, Rob Nickerson wrote:

As may have seen in Simon's response it sounds like we currently lack 
list moderators. If this is something you would like to do please email 
this mailing list.


Likewise we probably need to think about the criteria of what makes a 
good list moderator. If there are any traits that you'd like to see in a 
mailing list moderator please share with this mailing list.


Just to clarify what Simon said a bit before you all get carried
away, there absolutely is a list administrator and there is evidence
that they are processing the moderation queue.

That's not to say that they are actively reading the messages on
the list or applying any particular code of conduct.

It does mean however that you can't just choose somebody and ask
me to make them the list owner - you will need to try and make
contact with the existing list owner and discuss the situation
with them before attempting a putsch.

Tom

--
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http://compton.nu/

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project Suggestion - drink_water:refill

[European Water Project]

Dear Jez,

Gus Hoyt who was responsible at Refill UK (before being made redundant),
for all partnerships was a vocal proponent of collaboration and open data.

Unfortunately, the Refill board has consistently voted to keep their data
proprietary to support their revenue model based on paid partnerships and
margins on Chilly bottles.

On one hand, I am very impressed by the achievements Refill UK has made and
their significant impact in combatting single-use plastic so I really hope
them success.  On the other hand, I think collaboration and open data is a
better model for the creation and maintenance of a global network of water
fountains and commercial establishments where anyone can refill their
reusable water bottle without creating single-use waste.

I will send out call notes next week.

best regards,

Stuart



On Sat, 14 Mar 2020 at 11:37, Jez Nicholson  wrote:

> It will be interesting to hear about Refill UK's policy on Open Data.
> Perhaps they believe that their business model is inoperable if the data is
> open?
>
> I believe that they are a figurehead project from Ordnance Survey's
> Geovation scheme. I hope that they haven't tainted their data.
>
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, 10:55 European Water Project, <
> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I am due to have a call Tuesday morning (17/3) with Rebecca Burgess, CEO
>>> of Refill UK (https://refill.org.uk/ )  and the parent organisation
>>> City to Sea( https://www.citytosea.org.uk/ ) . This is one of many
>>> calls I have had with Refill.
>>>
>>> The Refill board's reluctance to share/license water refill data openly
>>> is very unfortunate.  Refill requires all partners to exclusively sell
>>> Chilly water bottles and only use their application.  I hope we can
>>> convince Refill to reconsider.
>>>
>>
>>
>>> Building a global open database of water refill points would be
>>> beneficial to all - resulting in a larger and better maintained network and
>>> less single-use plastic !
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Gareth L 
>>> *Date:* 12 March 2020 at 12:36:14 CET
>>> *To:* Jake Edmonds 
>>> *Cc:* "talk-gb@openstreetmap.org" 
>>> *Subject:* *Re:  [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project Suggestion -
>>> drink_water:refill*
>>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi Jake,
>>>
>>> Thanks for posting about this. I’m due to post on the Osm-uk loomio
>>> asking for suggestions on what the Q2 project should be. Are you aware of
>>> any other viable sources of data beyond an in person survey?
>>> I wonder why refill wouldn’t want to license their data.
>>>
>>> Gareth
>>>
>>> On 12 Mar 2020, at 11:27, Jake Edmonds via Talk-GB <
>>> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>  I understand there is an existing suggestion on the UK Quarterly
>>> Project talk page about drinking water but I wanted to add my support now
>>> that the drinking_water:refill proposal was approved. The tag is used to
>>> indicate if the establishment participates in a water refill network. I
>>> understand Refill.org.uk are unwilling to license their data.
>>>
>>> The drinking_water:refill tag is currently in use by the European Water
>>> Project's website and priceless.zottelig.ch. In addition OsmAnd have
>>> just added support according to their GitHub, I hope they will push an
>>> update to their apps soon.
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Adrinking_water%3Arefill
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> https://github.com/osmandapp/OsmAnd-resources/commit/15f5c919d3ac25cc048c4f3e0a569f7981999f65
>>>
>>> Many thanks
>>> Jake
>>>
>>> ___
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[Talk-GB] List moderator - volunteers needed

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi all,

As may have seen in Simon's response it sounds like we currently lack list
moderators. If this is something you would like to do please email this
mailing list.

Likewise we probably need to think about the criteria of what makes a good
list moderator. If there are any traits that you'd like to see in a mailing
list moderator please share with this mailing list.

Thanks,
Rob
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project Suggestion - drink_water:refill

[Jez Nicholson]

It will be interesting to hear about Refill UK's policy on Open Data.
Perhaps they believe that their business model is inoperable if the data is
open?

I believe that they are a figurehead project from Ordnance Survey's
Geovation scheme. I hope that they haven't tainted their data.

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, 10:55 European Water Project, <
europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am due to have a call Tuesday morning (17/3) with Rebecca Burgess, CEO
>> of Refill UK (https://refill.org.uk/ )  and the parent organisation City
>> to Sea( https://www.citytosea.org.uk/ ) . This is one of many calls I
>> have had with Refill.
>>
>> The Refill board's reluctance to share/license water refill data openly
>> is very unfortunate.  Refill requires all partners to exclusively sell
>> Chilly water bottles and only use their application.  I hope we can
>> convince Refill to reconsider.
>>
>
>
>> Building a global open database of water refill points would be
>> beneficial to all - resulting in a larger and better maintained network and
>> less single-use plastic !
>>
>
>>
>> *From:* Gareth L 
>> *Date:* 12 March 2020 at 12:36:14 CET
>> *To:* Jake Edmonds 
>> *Cc:* "talk-gb@openstreetmap.org" 
>> *Subject:* *Re:  [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project Suggestion -
>> drink_water:refill*
>>
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Jake,
>>
>> Thanks for posting about this. I’m due to post on the Osm-uk loomio
>> asking for suggestions on what the Q2 project should be. Are you aware of
>> any other viable sources of data beyond an in person survey?
>> I wonder why refill wouldn’t want to license their data.
>>
>> Gareth
>>
>> On 12 Mar 2020, at 11:27, Jake Edmonds via Talk-GB <
>> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>>
>>  I understand there is an existing suggestion on the UK Quarterly
>> Project talk page about drinking water but I wanted to add my support now
>> that the drinking_water:refill proposal was approved. The tag is used to
>> indicate if the establishment participates in a water refill network. I
>> understand Refill.org.uk are unwilling to license their data.
>>
>> The drinking_water:refill tag is currently in use by the European Water
>> Project's website and priceless.zottelig.ch. In addition OsmAnd have
>> just added support according to their GitHub, I hope they will push an
>> update to their apps soon.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Adrinking_water%3Arefill
>> 
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/osmandapp/OsmAnd-resources/commit/15f5c919d3ac25cc048c4f3e0a569f7981999f65
>>
>> Many thanks
>> Jake
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Talk-GB] European Water Project - Introduction

[Simon Poole]

Am 14.03.2020 um 10:16 schrieb European Water Project:
> This may come through twice...
>
>
> Hi   dzidek23,
>
> What would be the workflow for adding new establishments and their
> associated tags using onosm.org  ? 
>
onosm.org simply creates notes, so less than optimal for new
establishments.

https://osmybiz.osm.ch/ will create new objects and let people manage
them in a reasonable fashion. What needs to be done is to add the
necessary keys to the presets used by the app (in this case they are in
iD format).

Simon

>
> Maybe through on the ground observation, some of the more than
> 25.000 establishments displaying a Refill UK sticker on their door
> can start being added to OSM.  The more places people know they
> can refill their reusable water bottle and avoid single-use
> plastic the better. 
>
> We are currently helping Zero Bouteilles Plastiques in France to
> add their cafés to OSM and a mapper in Bexill-On-Sea  just added
> 50 cafés from their local  scheme.   User nigelramsay
>  is looking to see
> if Refill NZ might be willing to work with OpenStreetMap in New
> Zealand.  The refill network name should be tagged with the
> drinking_water:refill:network key.which is part of the newly
> defined key namespace. 
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drinking_water:refill  
>
>
> For reference, here are some of the many regional refill schemes
> (from the drinking_water:refill wiki): 
>
>   * Australia – ChooseTap http://choosetap.com.au/
>   * Bulgaria – Zero Waste Sofia European Water
> Project https://europeanwaterproject.org/
>   * Cambodia – Refill Asia /
> RefillMyBottle https://refillasia.com/ https://refillmybottle.com/
>   * Canada – BlueW.org; Tap http://www.bluew.org/
>   * Chile – Refill (Santiago de Chile only)
>   * Europe - European Water Project https://europeanwaterproject.org/
>   * France – Refill / EU Touring (Paris only) /European Water
> Project https://refill.org.uk/ https://europeanwaterproject.org/
>   * Germany – Refill Deutschland
>   * Greece –Refill https://refill.org.uk/
>   * Hongkong – Water for Free https://waterforfree.org/en/
>   * India – BluHop https://www.bluhop.com/
>   * Indonesia – Refill Asia / RefillMyBottle https://refillasia.com/
>   * Ireland – Refill Ireland
>   * Italy – Refill / Refill Elba (Elba island only)
>   * Japan – MyMizu
>   * Laos – Refill Asia / RefillMyBottle https://refillasia.com/
>   * Luxemborg –Refill https://refill.org.uk/
>   * Switzerland – FILL IT
> UP 
> http://fillitup.ch/karte.html?fbclid=IwAR0LLkykOD92K24dgHllJtcBconZBYkM9CfrItwK4TLU7xDmdXJnRnlb-n8
>   * The Netherlands – Refill / Drinkwaterkaart / Publiek Water
>   * New Zealand – RefillNZ
>   * Thailand – Refill Asia / RefillMyBottle
>   * U.K. – Refill https://refill.org.uk/
>   * United States – Tap
>   * Vietnam – Refill Asia /
> RefillMyBottle https://refillasia.com/ https://refillmybottle.com/
>   * Worldwide – Closca https://closca.com/pages/closca-water-app
>   * Worldwide – European Water
> Project https://europeanwaterproject.org/
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stuart 
>
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 22:03, BD  > wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I quite like the idea of adding free water refill places to
> the OSM. One idea which could not only benefit the European
> Water Project but OSM as a whole is to add a tick box on the
> onosm.org . I could read something like "We
> do provide free water refills" - link to European Water
> Project. If we would promote the onosm.org 
> a bit more not only numbers of businesses aware of/on OSM
> would increase, + people aware of Water Project. Water Project
> volunteers (if there are any) could direct businesses to
> onosm.org  for ease of adding info, this way
> we would "kill two birds with one stone" - as we say where I
> come from.
>
> cheers,
> dzidek23
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] European Water Project - Introduction

[European Water Project]

This may come through twice...


Hi   dzidek23,
>
> What would be the workflow for adding new establishments and their
> associated tags using onosm.org ?
>
> Maybe through on the ground observation, some of the more than 25.000
> establishments displaying a Refill UK sticker on their door can start being
> added to OSM.  The more places people know they can refill their reusable
> water bottle and avoid single-use plastic the better.
>
> We are currently helping Zero Bouteilles Plastiques in France to add their
> cafés to OSM and a mapper in Bexill-On-Sea  just added 50 cafés from their
> local  scheme.   User nigelramsay
>  is looking to see if
> Refill NZ might be willing to work with OpenStreetMap in New Zealand.  The
> refill network name should be tagged with the drinking_water:refill:network
> key.which is part of the newly defined key namespace.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drinking_water:refill
>
>
> For reference, here are some of the many regional refill schemes (from the
> drinking_water:refill wiki):
>
>
>- Australia – ChooseTap http://choosetap.com.au/
>- Bulgaria – Zero Waste Sofia European Water Project
>https://europeanwaterproject.org/
>- Cambodia – Refill Asia / RefillMyBottle https://refillasia.com/
>https://refillmybottle.com/
>- Canada – BlueW.org; Tap http://www.bluew.org/
>- Chile – Refill (Santiago de Chile only)
>- Europe - European Water Project https://europeanwaterproject.org/
>- France – Refill / EU Touring (Paris only) /European Water Project
>https://refill.org.uk/ https://europeanwaterproject.org/
>- Germany – Refill Deutschland
>- Greece –Refill https://refill.org.uk/
>- Hongkong – Water for Free https://waterforfree.org/en/
>- India – BluHop https://www.bluhop.com/
>- Indonesia – Refill Asia / RefillMyBottle https://refillasia.com/
>- Ireland – Refill Ireland
>- Italy – Refill / Refill Elba (Elba island only)
>- Japan – MyMizu
>- Laos – Refill Asia / RefillMyBottle https://refillasia.com/
>- Luxemborg –Refill https://refill.org.uk/
>- Switzerland – FILL IT UP
>
> http://fillitup.ch/karte.html?fbclid=IwAR0LLkykOD92K24dgHllJtcBconZBYkM9CfrItwK4TLU7xDmdXJnRnlb-n8
>- The Netherlands – Refill / Drinkwaterkaart / Publiek Water
>- New Zealand – RefillNZ
>- Thailand – Refill Asia / RefillMyBottle
>- U.K. – Refill https://refill.org.uk/
>- United States – Tap
>- Vietnam – Refill Asia / RefillMyBottle https://refillasia.com/
>https://refillmybottle.com/
>- Worldwide – Closca https://closca.com/pages/closca-water-app
>- Worldwide – European Water Project https://europeanwaterproject.org/
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stuart
>
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 22:03, BD  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I quite like the idea of adding free water refill places to the OSM. One
>> idea which could not only benefit the European Water Project but OSM as a
>> whole is to add a tick box on the onosm.org. I could read something like
>> "We do provide free water refills" - link to European Water Project. If we
>> would promote the onosm.org a bit more not only numbers of businesses
>> aware of/on OSM would increase, + people aware of Water Project. Water
>> Project volunteers (if there are any) could direct businesses to
>> onosm.org for ease of adding info, this way we would "kill two birds
>> with one stone" - as we say where I come from.
>>
>> cheers,
>> dzidek23
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] European Water Project - Introduction

[Peter Neale via Talk-GB]

Thanks Simon,
I had thought that such a tightly run and structured organisation as OSM 
would have someone moderating every mailing list 

Regards,Peter  
 

On Saturday, 14 March 2020, 08:47:49 GMT, Simon Poole  
wrote:  
 
  
Peter I don't believe there is/are any active moderators at this point. The UK 
community should nominate one or more, and ask the OWG to instate them as list 
moderators. In any case pleading to them here will not work (and likely 
wouldn't work even if there were some).
 
Simon
 
 Am 13.03.2020 um 23:37 schrieb Peter Neale via Talk-GB:
  
 
  List Moderators, 
  Please remove @Daniel Holsey from this list.  His contribution will not be 
missed. 
Regards, Peter
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Re: [Talk-GB] European Water Project - Introduction

[Simon Poole]

Peter I don't believe there is/are any active moderators at this point.
The UK community should nominate one or more, and ask the OWG to instate
them as list moderators. In any case pleading to them here will not work
(and likely wouldn't work even if there were some).

Simon

Am 13.03.2020 um 23:37 schrieb Peter Neale via Talk-GB:
> List Moderators,
>
> Please remove @Daniel Holsey from this list.  His contribution will
> not be missed.
>
> Regards,
> Peter
>


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