Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Nick

Could the data be included in https://osm.mathmos.net/survey/ ?

On 21/07/2020 22:42, Colin Smale wrote:


On 2020-07-21 22:54, Mark Goodge wrote:

It's the errors which are more of a problem, because it's generally 
better not to map something than to map it wrongly.


This is a difficult point. Data is never 100% complete, and frequently 
not 100% accurate. At what point it becomes better not to have the 
thing in OSM at all, is rather subjective.

If the location was only accurate to ±50m, would it still be good enough?
If the operator was not tagged, would it still be good enough?
Is an "imperfect" object in OSM more likely to get corrected than a 
missing object is to get added? Should I not add a missing object 
because I cannot be sure of the "operator" for example? Talking about 
the charging points data set, how can one detect what is an error?
I would say, get the data out there, and let the world feed back any 
inaccuracies to the source for inclusion in the next version.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Colin Smale
On 2020-07-21 22:54, Mark Goodge wrote:

> It's the errors which are more of a problem, because it's generally better 
> not to map something than to map it wrongly.

This is a difficult point. Data is never 100% complete, and frequently
not 100% accurate. At what point it becomes better not to have the thing
in OSM at all, is rather subjective. 

If the location was only accurate to ±50m, would it still be good
enough? 
If the operator was not tagged, would it still be good enough? 

Is an "imperfect" object in OSM more likely to get corrected than a
missing object is to get added? Should I not add a missing object
because I cannot be sure of the "operator" for example? Talking about
the charging points data set, how can one detect what is an error? 

I would say, get the data out there, and let the world feed back any
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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Chris Hill


On 21/07/2020 21:54, Mark Goodge wrote:



On 21/07/2020 21:27, ael wrote:

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 05:30:25PM +0100, Mark Goodge wrote:



On 21/07/2020 16:57, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:

Is the National Chargepoint Registry data open for OSM now? If not
somebody should write a nice enough letter?


It is open, it's OGL now. But it's not reliable enough for an 
unfiltered

bulk import; there are duplicate entries, incorrect coordinates and
incorrect or missing addresses.


And missing entries. Two charge points that I have mapped do not appear,
at least with a post-code search.


Yes; it's a good start, but by comparison with other (non-open) 
sources, it appears to have only around 80% of the total included. 
Although missing entries are less of a problem for a data import than 
erroneous entries, because gaps can be filled in manually. It's the 
errors which are more of a problem, because it's generally better not 
to map something than to map it wrongly.



The 'About' section says it is a register of publicly funded charge 
points. In the list for my local area they are all privately owned & run 
charge points and the council-funded ones are all missing. The private 
ones may have received some public funding but the council ones 
certainly have.


The addressing is poor, 'North Humberside' is used - Humberside was 
abolished in 1996!


It lists all the points as 'in service', but I know one it has in 
service is out of service, has been for while and is probably going to 
be replaced rather than repaired, so that data is suspect. Another shown 
as in service is not a public charging point, it is a 'Customers only' 
point for Nissan customers, yet a similar Hyundai customers only site is 
not in the list at all.


There are links to an overlay on OSM, but the locations are pretty 
poorly positioned, so bad they could almost be Google Maps business 
locations from a few of years ago.


I think the best we could do with this is use it as a list of places to 
survey - it doesn't look good enough to import to me.


--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)


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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Mark Goodge



On 21/07/2020 21:27, ael wrote:

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 05:30:25PM +0100, Mark Goodge wrote:



On 21/07/2020 16:57, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:

Is the National Chargepoint Registry data open for OSM now? If not
somebody should write a nice enough letter?


It is open, it's OGL now. But it's not reliable enough for an unfiltered
bulk import; there are duplicate entries, incorrect coordinates and
incorrect or missing addresses.


And missing entries. Two charge points that I have mapped do not appear,
at least with a post-code search.


Yes; it's a good start, but by comparison with other (non-open) sources, 
it appears to have only around 80% of the total included. Although 
missing entries are less of a problem for a data import than erroneous 
entries, because gaps can be filled in manually. It's the errors which 
are more of a problem, because it's generally better not to map 
something than to map it wrongly.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread ael
On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 05:30:25PM +0100, Mark Goodge wrote:
> 
> 
> On 21/07/2020 16:57, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
> > Is the National Chargepoint Registry data open for OSM now? If not
> > somebody should write a nice enough letter?
> 
> It is open, it's OGL now. But it's not reliable enough for an unfiltered
> bulk import; there are duplicate entries, incorrect coordinates and
> incorrect or missing addresses.

And missing entries. Two charge points that I have mapped do not appear,
at least with a post-code search.

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Mark Goodge



On 21/07/2020 20:56, Dave F via Talk-GB wrote:



On 21/07/2020 17:30, Mark Goodge wrote:



On 21/07/2020 16:57, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
Is the National Chargepoint Registry data open for OSM now? If not 
somebody should write a nice enough letter?


It is open, it's OGL now. But it's not reliable enough for an 
unfiltered bulk import; there are duplicate entries, incorrect 
coordinates and incorrect or missing addresses.


Can you post the link?


https://www.national-charge-point-registry.uk/ncr-home/

Download link and licence details are in "Access the data" on the right 
(if you have a narrow screen then you need to click the arrow to make 
the panel slide in).


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Dave F via Talk-GB



On 21/07/2020 17:30, Mark Goodge wrote:



On 21/07/2020 16:57, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
Is the National Chargepoint Registry data open for OSM now? If not 
somebody should write a nice enough letter?


It is open, it's OGL now. But it's not reliable enough for an 
unfiltered bulk import; there are duplicate entries, incorrect 
coordinates and incorrect or missing addresses.


Can you post the link?

DaveF

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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Cj Malone
On Tue, 2020-07-21 at 17:30 +0100, Mark Goodge wrote:
> But it's not reliable enough for an unfiltered bulk import; there are
> duplicate entries, incorrect coordinates and incorrect or missing
> addresses.

We could turn this into an advantage of Open Data and OSM. Validation
of other datasets makes them more accurate and in turn useful to
everyone, including the original publisher.

> What it would be useful for, though, is adding the technical data to
> a chargepoint that has been mapped by on-the-ground observation. So
> long as we can match an entry in the NCR to a mapped chargepoint,
> the metadata (eg, connector types, owner/operator/network) can be
> updated automatically.

+1
But I think we should also add the other data (after other validation,
like de duplication and null island), possibly like the naptan import
with, naptan:verified, or a more generic import_verified. That could
easily be fitted into on the ground verification tools like
StreetComplete. Or perhaps a more visible option is to make notes for
the ones that aren't matched to existing data allowing local mappers to
check and add them manually.

On Tue, 2020-07-21 at 18:44 +0200, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
> Again, this sounds like a perfect job for MapRoulette where the NCR
> goes into a GeoJSON and people get to work on that data with what's
> in OSM already - the part that requires effort is to correct what's
> bogus ;)

I think of MapRoulette as being more "arm chair mapping", I think you'd
get people just adding it without any validation.

Cj



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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Kai Michael Poppe - OSM
Again, this sounds like a perfect job for MapRoulette where the NCR goes into a 
GeoJSON and people get to work on that data with what's in OSM already - the 
part that requires effort is to correct what's bogus ;)

K

Am 21. Juli 2020 18:30:25 MESZ schrieb Mark Goodge :
>
>
>On 21/07/2020 16:57, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
>> Is the National Chargepoint Registry data open for OSM now? If not 
>> somebody should write a nice enough letter?
>
>It is open, it's OGL now. But it's not reliable enough for an unfiltered 
>bulk import; there are duplicate entries, incorrect coordinates and 
>incorrect or missing addresses.
>
>What it would be useful for, though, is adding the technical data to a 
>chargepoint that has been mapped by on-the-ground observation. So long 
>as we can match an entry in the NCR to a mapped chargepoint, the 
>metadata (eg, connector types, owner/operator/network) can be updated 
>automatically.
>
>Mark
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Mark Goodge



On 21/07/2020 16:57, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
Is the National Chargepoint Registry data open for OSM now? If not 
somebody should write a nice enough letter?


It is open, it's OGL now. But it's not reliable enough for an unfiltered 
bulk import; there are duplicate entries, incorrect coordinates and 
incorrect or missing addresses.


What it would be useful for, though, is adding the technical data to a 
chargepoint that has been mapped by on-the-ground observation. So long 
as we can match an entry in the NCR to a mapped chargepoint, the 
metadata (eg, connector types, owner/operator/network) can be updated 
automatically.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Kai Michael Poppe - OSM
Is the National Chargepoint Registry data open for OSM now? If not somebody 
should write a nice enough letter?

Kai

Am 21. Juli 2020 17:16:59 MESZ schrieb Mark Goodge :
>
>
>On 21/07/2020 12:58, Dave F via Talk-GB wrote:
>> 1538 nationwide.
>
>Which is a long way short of the 10,000+ listed in the National 
>Chargepoint Registry.
>
>> Use this to see what other tags contributors are adding.
>> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Wia
>
>It seems to be patchy, and very dependent on local mappers.
>
>I think it would be beneficial to add them wherever possible. I take the 
>point mentioned elsewhere that those who actually use them will, 
>typically, have an app that gives their locations and availability. But 
>they are, nonetheless, a visible part of the built infrastructure. I'll 
>certainly make a point of adding the ones I know about locally.
>
>Mark
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Mark Goodge



On 21/07/2020 12:58, Dave F via Talk-GB wrote:

1538 nationwide.


Which is a long way short of the 10,000+ listed in the National 
Chargepoint Registry.



Use this to see what other tags contributors are adding.
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Wia


It seems to be patchy, and very dependent on local mappers.

I think it would be beneficial to add them wherever possible. I take the 
point mentioned elsewhere that those who actually use them will, 
typically, have an app that gives their locations and availability. But 
they are, nonetheless, a visible part of the built infrastructure. I'll 
certainly make a point of adding the ones I know about locally.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN tag proposal page

2020-07-21 Thread Lester Caine

On 21/07/2020 12:42, Nick wrote:

Hi Lester

Rob has suggested a matching USRN tag

You make a good point regarding upper and lower case. Perhaps the tag 
should be ref:GB:UPRN in line with normal convention of referring to 
UPRN in upper case?


I was only thinking about the country code as I've seen both cases used 
on a number of different countries and I'm used to 'tags are lower 
case', but in reality these days, USRN and UPRN are the correct case as 
is GB so yes - if there is no rule on tags being lower case - then 
ref:GB:UPRN IS the correct format!



Nick

On 21/07/2020 10:34, Lester Caine wrote:

On 20/07/2020 22:11, Rob Nickerson wrote:

If there are no red flags I will move for a vote.

Looks sensible to me but will there be a matching usrn tag?

I see the occasional use of :gb: on other tags and any 'convention' on 
upper or lower case is possibly an international one, but I'm not sure 
anything actually says the country code being upper case trumps the 
convention of tags being lower case? I'm a long time PHP user where 
the case is agnostic anyway in many cases but again that is not 
specified here either ...

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Local Wildlife Sites

2020-07-21 Thread SK53
Yes, am reasonably familiar with ones in Notts & Derbys. A friend led the
initial survey work (Phase 1 habitat) back in the 1970s, other friends were
surveyors.

Some LAs do have these as data on their GIS systems (Nottingham &
Nottinghamshire for instance), others have lists (RBWM). I understand that
in some cases they are reluctant to publish because doing so would alert
less-sympathetic landowners who may then destroy the sites. I have always
imagined that the data could be obtainable under EIR, but as I'm aware of
these sensitivities I havent tried. Some Wildlife Trusts have enough
resources to get round the LWS in their area every few years.

They are a statutory designation, but confer no protections. A significant
proportion of remaining true meadows are LWS rather than SSSI (largely
because Natural England have not had resources to perform designation).
They vary between protected verges, local nature reserves and private land.
I suspect the only tag which is truly viable on OSM is designation. We
certainly should not map them in such a way that implies they are nature
reserves.

Jerry

On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 at 15:53, Jez Nicholson  wrote:

> Does anyone have any experience with
> https://www.wildlifetrusts.org/local-wildlife-sites ?
>
> I've had an inquiry about including Brighton & Hove LWSes on OSM.
>
> - Jez
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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread ael
On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 11:58:53AM +0100, Mark Goodge wrote:
> Do we map electric vehicle charging points?

Yes.

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB

Part of highway=street_lamp, similarly to street lamps mounted on power poles.

Though it is yet another case of tricky difference between fuel stations that 
have quite standard
size and charging spots ranging in size from such minor ones to bigger 
features...

Jul 21, 2020, 14:47 by jez.nichol...@gmail.com:

> My Council has introduced 200+ lamp post mounted charging points > 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/B_Fm7L8nOL8/
>
> Would you give that its own node? or as part of > Tag:highway=street_lamp?
>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 1:13 PM Dave F via Talk-GB <> 
> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:
>
>> On 21/07/2020 12:10, Chris Hill wrote:
>>  > Leccy car drivers need to know if the point is working. Apps from the 
>>  > charge point suppliers and from others such as Zapmap try to keep 
>>  > drivers informed about the availability and condition of the point. 
>>  > OSM doesn't have that info and can't update it in real time. Some 
>>  > leccy cars have this live info built into their satnav.
>>  >
>>  > There's nothing wrong with adding charging points. I expect people 
>>  > wanting to actually use them will look elsewhere for more info than 
>>  > OSM can reasonably supply.
>>  
>>  That's a moot point.
>>  That's the equivalent of saying drivers needs to know if a car park is 
>>  full or a commuter wants to find out if the 08:12 to Oxford has been 
>>  cancelled.
>>  
>>  DaveF
>>  
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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Jez Nicholson
My Council has introduced 200+ lamp post mounted charging points
https://www.instagram.com/p/B_Fm7L8nOL8/

Would you give that its own node? or as part of Tag:highway=street_lamp?

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 1:13 PM Dave F via Talk-GB <
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> On 21/07/2020 12:10, Chris Hill wrote:
> > Leccy car drivers need to know if the point is working. Apps from the
> > charge point suppliers and from others such as Zapmap try to keep
> > drivers informed about the availability and condition of the point.
> > OSM doesn't have that info and can't update it in real time. Some
> > leccy cars have this live info built into their satnav.
> >
> > There's nothing wrong with adding charging points. I expect people
> > wanting to actually use them will look elsewhere for more info than
> > OSM can reasonably supply.
>
> That's a moot point.
> That's the equivalent of saying drivers needs to know if a car park is
> full or a commuter wants to find out if the 08:12 to Oxford has been
> cancelled.
>
> DaveF
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Dave F via Talk-GB

On 21/07/2020 12:10, Chris Hill wrote:
Leccy car drivers need to know if the point is working. Apps from the 
charge point suppliers and from others such as Zapmap try to keep 
drivers informed about the availability and condition of the point. 
OSM doesn't have that info and can't update it in real time. Some 
leccy cars have this live info built into their satnav.


There's nothing wrong with adding charging points. I expect people 
wanting to actually use them will look elsewhere for more info than 
OSM can reasonably supply.


That's a moot point.
That's the equivalent of saying drivers needs to know if a car park is 
full or a commuter wants to find out if the 08:12 to Oxford has been 
cancelled.


DaveF

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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Andy Townsend

On 21/07/2020 12:03, o...@poppe.dev wrote:

Hi Mark,

there's a pretty detailled article in the wiki for e-charging and all the 
options that come with it: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcharging_station

So yeah, I guess, mapping them is totally OK.

Kai


Mark Goodge  hat am 21. Juli 2020 um 12:58 geschrieben:


Do we map electric vehicle charging points? If not, should we?


They certainly get mapped:

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Wig

and get rendered on several maps, including the "standard" one:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5213870421

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Dave F via Talk-GB

1538 nationwide.

Use this to see what other tags contributors are adding.
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Wia

DaveF


On 21/07/2020 11:58, Mark Goodge wrote:

Do we map electric vehicle charging points? If not, should we?

None of the ones in my town are on OSM, at the moment. I could add 
them, but it seems a bit pointless if they're not generally mapped.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN tag proposal page

2020-07-21 Thread Nick

Hi Lester

Rob has suggested a matching USRN tag

You make a good point regarding upper and lower case. Perhaps the tag 
should be ref:GB:UPRN in line with normal convention of referring to 
UPRN in upper case?


Nick

On 21/07/2020 10:34, Lester Caine wrote:

On 20/07/2020 22:11, Rob Nickerson wrote:

If there are no red flags I will move for a vote.

Looks sensible to me but will there be a matching usrn tag?

I see the occasional use of :gb: on other tags and any 'convention' on 
upper or lower case is possibly an international one, but I'm not sure 
anything actually says the country code being upper case trumps the 
convention of tags being lower case? I'm a long time PHP user where 
the case is agnostic anyway in many cases but again that is not 
specified here either ...




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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Chris Hill
Leccy car drivers need to know if the point is working. Apps from the charge 
point suppliers and from others such as Zapmap try to keep drivers informed 
about the availability and condition of the point. OSM doesn't have that info 
and can't update it in real time. Some leccy cars have this live info built 
into their satnav.

There's nothing wrong with adding charging points.  I expect people wanting to 
actually use them will look elsewhere for more info than OSM can reasonably 
supply.

Chris

On 21 July 2020 11:58:53 BST, Mark Goodge  wrote:
>Do we map electric vehicle charging points? If not, should we?
>
>None of the ones in my town are on OSM, at the moment. I could add
>them, 
>but it seems a bit pointless if they're not generally mapped.
>
>Mark
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread osm
Hi Mark,

there's a pretty detailled article in the wiki for e-charging and all the 
options that come with it: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcharging_station

So yeah, I guess, mapping them is totally OK.

Kai

> Mark Goodge  hat am 21. Juli 2020 um 12:58 geschrieben:
> 
> 
> Do we map electric vehicle charging points? If not, should we?
> 
> None of the ones in my town are on OSM, at the moment. I could add them, 
> but it seems a bit pointless if they're not generally mapped.
> 
> Mark
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Simon Still Gmail
I’ve been adding them in My area. The tagging is established 

Sent from my iPhone

> On 21 Jul 2020, at 12:00, Mark Goodge  wrote:
> 
> Do we map electric vehicle charging points? If not, should we?
> 
> None of the ones in my town are on OSM, at the moment. I could add them, but 
> it seems a bit pointless if they're not generally mapped.
> 
> Mark
> 
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[Talk-GB] Electric vehicle charging points

2020-07-21 Thread Mark Goodge

Do we map electric vehicle charging points? If not, should we?

None of the ones in my town are on OSM, at the moment. I could add them, 
but it seems a bit pointless if they're not generally mapped.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN tag proposal page

2020-07-21 Thread Lester Caine

On 20/07/2020 22:11, Rob Nickerson wrote:

If there are no red flags I will move for a vote.

Looks sensible to me but will there be a matching usrn tag?

I see the occasional use of :gb: on other tags and any 'convention' on 
upper or lower case is possibly an international one, but I'm not sure 
anything actually says the country code being upper case trumps the 
convention of tags being lower case? I'm a long time PHP user where the 
case is agnostic anyway in many cases but again that is not specified 
here either ...


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN tag proposal page

2020-07-21 Thread Peter Neale via Talk-GB
Excellent proposal. No problems that I can see.
Peter 

   >On Tuesday, 21 July 2020, 09:18:02 BST, Tony OSM  
wrote:  
 
  
>Thanks for the effort.
 
>No problem to vote for this, no "red flags" for me.
 
>Tony
 
 >>On 20/07/2020 22:11, Rob Nickerson wrote:
  
 
   >>Hi all, 
  >>As discussed at the State of the Map online workshop, I took away an action 
to draft a proposal page for ref:GB:uprn. This page is now >>up online. 
  >>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ref:GB:uprn 
  >>This is the first one of these I have done in a long time so hopefully I 
got it right. 
  >>At this stage, please highlight any "red flags" that would prevent us from 
moving to the voting stage. Feel free to also edit the page >>directly, however 
I'm of the view that less is more in this case as it keeps it short for people 
to read and also reduces the chance that  >>something is added that others do 
not agree with (which would be bad during the voting stage). 
  >>If there are no red flags I will move for a vote. 
  >>P.S. My thanks to Nick for drafting the initial text. >>P.P.S If anyone 
wants to start a page for USRN, please feel free to, otherwise I will attempt 
this later in the week.
  
  >>Best regards,
  >>Rob
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN tag proposal page

2020-07-21 Thread Tony OSM

Thanks for the effort.

No problem to vote for this, no "red flags" for me.

Tony

On 20/07/2020 22:11, Rob Nickerson wrote:

Hi all,

As discussed at the State of the Map online workshop, I took away an 
action to draft a proposal page for ref:GB:uprn. This page is now up 
online.


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ref:GB:uprn

This is the first one of these I have done in a long time so hopefully 
I got it right.


At this stage, please highlight any "red flags" that would prevent us 
from moving to the voting stage. Feel free to also edit the page 
directly, however I'm of the view that less is more in this case as it 
keeps it short for people to read and also reduces the chance that 
something is added that others do not agree with (which would be bad 
during the voting stage).


If there are no red flags I will move for a vote.

P.S. My thanks to Nick for drafting the initial text.
P.P.S If anyone wants to start a page for USRN, please feel free to, 
otherwise I will attempt this later in the week.


Best regards,
*Rob*

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