Re: [Talk-GB] map styles on osm.org; other sites (was: Re: driveway-becomes-track)

[Edward Bainton]

I keep hearing snagging issues that *might* be resolved by a more federal
OSM, in the map presentation as well as in the organisational structure.

Is that something that's ever been considered?

On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 13:40, Nick  wrote:

> Totally agree that openstreetmap.org isn't supposed to be a "general
> public" map destination but without knowing user journeys, I assume that is
> where most people land.
>
> Options could be that openstreetmap.org provide alternative links based
> on locality and/or develop robust (N.B. tiles from opencyclemap.org seems
> to have security issue) local solutions that are found by search engines
> (i.e. good search engine optimisation)
> On 13/12/2020 12:12, Andy Townsend wrote:
>
>
> On 13/12/2020 11:16, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:
>
> Note that someone who wants to show their map style at OSM website can
> be included, though they must sponsor hosting
>
> See
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Featured_tile_layers/Guidelines_for_new_tile_layers
>
> As far as I know, the main blocker seems to be
> "Capable of meeting traffic demands. The proposed tile layer server/server
> farm
> must be capable of accepting the traffic volume from the OpenStreetMap
> website."
>
> ÖPNVKarte is map style that joined recently.
>
> Dec 13, 2020, 12:08 by n...@foresters.org:
>
> Seems to me that apart from the tagging, the issue highlighted here is
> with how the general public can easily use OSM? Going to the OSM map, the
> layers on offer are Standard, Cycle Map (which does show the driveway
> connected) etc. but if a user wants a more specific use this is not easy to
> find. To my mind this is where more options from the worldwide map fail to
> deliver and is a bigger issue that can be resolved by understanding the
> 'customer' journey better?
>
> The main blocker for a map that shows public footpaths etc. would actually
> be the "Global scope and coverage" requirement on that page, since public
> footpaths only exist in England and Wales.
>
> It used to be possible to easily replace tiles from one of the map styles
> at osm.org with another one, but since the move to https-only tiles
> that's now much harder to do.  You can replace (say)
> https://map.atownsend.org.uk/hot/9/253/166.png with
> https://tile-a.openstreetmap.fr/hot/9/253/166.png at the hosts file
> level, but need to click through a "scary browser warning" every few days.
>
> More generally openstreetmap.org isn't really designed as a "general
> public" map destination, which is fair enough (it can't do everything).
> It's easy to make suggestions like "it should do X as well" - the tricky
> bit is actually doing it and maintaining it.  I'd definitely prefer a
> project landing page that's closer to the German one
> https://openstreetmap.de/ , but I don't have the skills, energy, time or
> enthusiasm to make that happen.  I particularly like the "showroom" there -
> a link to lots of different map styles, separate from the main
> openstreetmap.de map.
>
> Another example that is surely worth mentioning here is
> https://cycle.travel - that's designed for a particular use case.  I
> suspect that most people become aware of OSM by seeing the name at the
> bottom-right of a completely different site that someone sent them to
> because it was useful.  Another indication of this is the number of help
> questions that we see where people are having problems with "the
> openstreetmap app" or "the site gives an error" (and that site clearly
> isn't openstreetmap.org).
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging bike ramp/ bike path down steps

[Chris Hodges]

There are no relations set for that stretch or the adjacent ones, so 
I'll try to sort that out for at least that bit of NCR45.  It's 
definitely signposted (including the need to dismount)


Chris

On 13/12/2020 19:55, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:


Dec 13, 2020, 20:52 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:

Dec 13, 2020, 19:50 by ch...@c-hodges.co.uk:

So how should this be tagged to indicate that the bike route
really does go down the steps?

Add them to bike route relation.


Obviously it applies only if there is some signed bicycle route there.

If it is just part of cycleway system, without signed bicycle route then
relation should not be created and there is actually a gap in cycleway
system.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging bike ramp/ bike path down steps

[SK53]

NCN 6 has a particularly awkward example
 (sorry
no picture to hand) which is suitably tagged, and definitely signed. The
ramp is (was?) not much more than a half-pipe.

On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 18:53, Chris Hodges  wrote:

> NCR45 in Stroud goes down a rather steep flight of steps to cross
> Dudbridge Road. I can confirm that is what the signs say, having been
> there yesterday.  Also the Sustrans/OS map shows it taking the line of
> the steps https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/51.73875,-2.23631,18
>
> There is a narrow ramp, so you can wheel a (conventional) bike up/down.
> It's about as accessible as it sounds, but the north end of the path
> isn't much better.
>
> On OSM the steps are shown (with a note about the bike route)
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/51.73895/-2.23568 but the
> cycle path appears to break
>
> Mapillary shows the sign at the bottom:
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=51.738716181265865=-2.236989543797598=17=map=true=7X9gKmoDzGaATOILuDGRuA=0.14213485370109913=0.4081370298673949=3
>
>
> It's not unique - I know another example where the Bristol-Bath railway
> path accesses the pub car park in Saltford
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/51.40521/-2.45026, and I've
> seen similar on canal towpaths - in the latter case in particular it can
> be crucial for route-planning even manually, as the next access can be a
> long way away.
>
> So how should this be tagged to indicate that the bike route really does
> go down the steps?
>
>
> Chris
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging bike ramp/ bike path down steps

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB]

Dec 13, 2020, 20:52 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:

> Dec 13, 2020, 19:50 by ch...@c-hodges.co.uk:
>
>> So how should this be tagged to indicate that the bike route really does go 
>> down the steps?
>>
> Add them to bike route relation.
>

Obviously it applies only if there is some signed bicycle route there.

If it is just part of cycleway system, without signed bicycle route then
relation should not be created and there is actually a gap in cycleway
system.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging bike ramp/ bike path down steps

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB]

Dec 13, 2020, 19:50 by ch...@c-hodges.co.uk:

> So how should this be tagged to indicate that the bike route really does go 
> down the steps?
>
Add them to bike route relation.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging bike ramp/ bike path down steps

[Edward Catmur via Talk-GB]

On Sun, 13 Dec 2020, 19:14 David Woolley, 
wrote:

> On 13/12/2020 19:05, Edward Catmur via Talk-GB wrote:
> > Also, the steps should have bicycle=dismount, not =yes. This will allow
> > people who can't dismount to go around by the road.
>
> Only if it is illegal to try to cycle up and down the steps.  Otherwise
> it is the duty of the renderer (router) to infer that this will be
> necessary because of the steps.
>

The sign visible on Mapillary says (white on blue) "Steps ahead cyclists
dismount". That seems pretty clear to me.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging bike ramp/ bike path down steps

[David Woolley]

On 13/12/2020 19:05, Edward Catmur via Talk-GB wrote:
Also, the steps should have bicycle=dismount, not =yes. This will allow 
people who can't dismount to go around by the road.


Only if it is illegal to try to cycle up and down the steps.  Otherwise 
it is the duty of the renderer (router) to infer that this will be 
necessary because of the steps.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging bike ramp/ bike path down steps

[Edward Catmur via Talk-GB]

On Sun, 13 Dec 2020, 19:02 Adam Snape,  wrote:

> highway=steps
> ramp:bicycle=yes
>

Right. The cycle route isn't mapped at all, from what I can tell?

Also, the steps should have bicycle=dismount, not =yes. This will allow
people who can't dismount to go around by the road.



> Kind regards,
>
> Adam
>
>
> On Sun, 13 Dec 2020, 18:53 Chris Hodges,  wrote:
>
>> NCR45 in Stroud goes down a rather steep flight of steps to cross
>> Dudbridge Road. I can confirm that is what the signs say, having been
>> there yesterday.  Also the Sustrans/OS map shows it taking the line of
>> the steps https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/51.73875,-2.23631,18
>>
>> There is a narrow ramp, so you can wheel a (conventional) bike up/down.
>> It's about as accessible as it sounds, but the north end of the path
>> isn't much better.
>>
>> On OSM the steps are shown (with a note about the bike route)
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/51.73895/-2.23568 but the
>> cycle path appears to break
>>
>> Mapillary shows the sign at the bottom:
>>
>> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=51.738716181265865=-2.236989543797598=17=map=true=7X9gKmoDzGaATOILuDGRuA=0.14213485370109913=0.4081370298673949=3
>>
>>
>> It's not unique - I know another example where the Bristol-Bath railway
>> path accesses the pub car park in Saltford
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/51.40521/-2.45026, and I've
>> seen similar on canal towpaths - in the latter case in particular it can
>> be crucial for route-planning even manually, as the next access can be a
>> long way away.
>>
>> So how should this be tagged to indicate that the bike route really does
>> go down the steps?
>>
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging bike ramp/ bike path down steps

[Adam Snape]

highway=steps
ramp:bicycle=yes

Kind regards,

Adam


On Sun, 13 Dec 2020, 18:53 Chris Hodges,  wrote:

> NCR45 in Stroud goes down a rather steep flight of steps to cross
> Dudbridge Road. I can confirm that is what the signs say, having been
> there yesterday.  Also the Sustrans/OS map shows it taking the line of
> the steps https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/51.73875,-2.23631,18
>
> There is a narrow ramp, so you can wheel a (conventional) bike up/down.
> It's about as accessible as it sounds, but the north end of the path
> isn't much better.
>
> On OSM the steps are shown (with a note about the bike route)
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/51.73895/-2.23568 but the
> cycle path appears to break
>
> Mapillary shows the sign at the bottom:
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=51.738716181265865=-2.236989543797598=17=map=true=7X9gKmoDzGaATOILuDGRuA=0.14213485370109913=0.4081370298673949=3
>
>
> It's not unique - I know another example where the Bristol-Bath railway
> path accesses the pub car park in Saltford
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/51.40521/-2.45026, and I've
> seen similar on canal towpaths - in the latter case in particular it can
> be crucial for route-planning even manually, as the next access can be a
> long way away.
>
> So how should this be tagged to indicate that the bike route really does
> go down the steps?
>
>
> Chris
>
>
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[Talk-GB] Tagging bike ramp/ bike path down steps

[Chris Hodges]

NCR45 in Stroud goes down a rather steep flight of steps to cross 
Dudbridge Road. I can confirm that is what the signs say, having been 
there yesterday.  Also the Sustrans/OS map shows it taking the line of 
the steps https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/51.73875,-2.23631,18


There is a narrow ramp, so you can wheel a (conventional) bike up/down.  
It's about as accessible as it sounds, but the north end of the path 
isn't much better.


On OSM the steps are shown (with a note about the bike route) 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/51.73895/-2.23568 but the 
cycle path appears to break


Mapillary shows the sign at the bottom: 
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=51.738716181265865=-2.236989543797598=17=map=true=7X9gKmoDzGaATOILuDGRuA=0.14213485370109913=0.4081370298673949=3 



It's not unique - I know another example where the Bristol-Bath railway 
path accesses the pub car park in Saltford 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/51.40521/-2.45026, and I've 
seen similar on canal towpaths - in the latter case in particular it can 
be crucial for route-planning even manually, as the next access can be a 
long way away.


So how should this be tagged to indicate that the bike route really does 
go down the steps?



Chris


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Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

[OSMUK via Talk-GB]

Hey Nick,

This sounds like a great project and so I’m sure OSMUK can help with server 
space. We have just migrated hosting to AWS due to our previous host shutting 
down, so one option is to provide some space on there.

Best,

Adam

--
Adam Hoyle
[m] 07973 428 333
On 11 Dec 2020, 15:02 +, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB , wrote:
>
> Hello Andy,
>
> Thanks for this.
>
> My own feeling regarding what server we need is "start small, to get it 
> going" and then as soon as OSMUK can commit to funding (*if* they can, of 
> course) and/or several people share the cost, then scale up. Hetzner's model 
> is very flexible in this regard, for instance I started with an 8GB RAM VM 
> before I found it wasn't quite adequate for my needs and upgraded the same VM 
> to the 16GB version (and added some disc space, I think, too). For now I am 
> willing to spend a small amount (below EUR/GBP 5) for a month or two to get 
> things going if there's sufficient interest.
>
> I'd broadly agree to an extent about going the Mapnik route although I would 
> prefer another person with more experience in the niceties of current Mapnik 
> stylesheet development to do large-scale tweaks;  I would be happy to do 
> small​ tweaks on such things as, for example, making designations appear in a 
> similar style to Landranger which might be an idea for familiarity purposes. 
> On the other hand, vector rendering would have some advantages for the aims 
> of this project - an interactive map of the countryside in which POIs and 
> paths can be clicked to add/retrieve information. I believe Tangram can do 
> this quite easily; I have dabbled in Tangram and it's quite easy to setup a 
> simple stylesheet though haven't tried it with anything complex. Tangram also 
> has some nice things like being able to be rendered in both isometric and 
> (via A-Frame components, https://aframe.io) even in 3D. I have to admit 
> having a personal like for the vector approach,   it shifts more processing 
> onto the client, good in a world where standard client hardware, desktop and 
> mobile, is pretty powerful while powerful server hardware is expensive.
>
> I wouldn't personally be so fussed about things like minutely updates until 
> it becomes a 'production' map, while in development mode I think the best 
> approach is to keep it simple and cheap to run. In terms of my own projects I 
> do quite rigorous filtering of the OSM data before populating the DB, to 
> reject things mostly of interest to urban areas which only use up space and 
> resources in a walking-oriented map. Another way of keeping initial costs 
> down would be to concentrate on one or a few counties, ideally well-mapped 
> ones with many ROWs, hills, water features etc.
>
> So I'd be quite happy - if​ there's interest - to setup a cheaper Hetzner 
> server for now. If we want to go the mapnik route I'd be happy to do a basic 
> setup there as well, as in, get mod_tile working and use your style 
> unmodified. My main personal contribution to the project would be to work on 
> the server- and client-side scripting necessary to develop an interactive POI 
> map. We'd also of course need people with strong web design and UX skills - 
> alas, mine are not so great!
>
> As for other points - things like https cert renewal seem easy with Let's 
> Encrypt; have been using that succesfully for a while now.
>
> Nick
>
>
> Nick Whitelegg
> Senior Lecturer in Computing (Internet)  | School of Media Arts and Technology
> Southampton Solent University  | RM424 | East Park Terrace | Southampton SO14 
> 0YN
> T: 023 8201 3075 | E: nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk | W: solent.ac.uk
>
> Disclaimer
> From: Andy Townsend 
> Sent: 11 December 2020 13:40
> To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server
>
>
> On 11/12/2020 09:59, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote:
> >
> > In the early stages I think we could run it on cheap hosting hardware, like 
> > most projects in the OSM ecosystem. I suspect for a while usage would be 
> > light and limited to those in the OSM community. I use Hetzner for my 
> > hosting (OpenTrailView, Hikar, MapThePaths) - I pay around EUR 19/month but 
> > that is for a larger system that has to deal with the whole of Europe 
> > rather than just the UK.
> >
> >  https://www.hetzner.com/cloud?country=gb
> >
> > The second-lowest spec of these, the CPX11 is giving you 2GB RAM and 40GB 
> > disc space for EUR 4.19 a month. OK we'd need more than that long term, but 
> > I suspect that would get us going in the early stages.
>
> That'll depending on what you want the server to do, I think.  For an OSM 
> Carto Map style with automatic updates and reasonable performance you'll 
> probably need > 6Gb memory for the whole of the UK these days.  Maybe a CX31 
> at €11 per month (i.e. about the price of a couple of pints and a 
> "substantial" pork pie for those in tier 2)?  https://map.atownsend.org.uk is 
> a CX41 I believe, and 

Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Martin Wynne]

I have now changed this from "driveway" to "service road" with access 
for motor vehicles as "destination", i.e. for access to properties only. 
I don't think it can be "private" because there are two properties along 
there, Noverton Cottage and Noverton Farm.


I have also added the gate at the public road.

 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/52.28186/-2.42748

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Philip Barnes]

We as a UK community, certainly from the countryside mapping point of
view tend to be walkers and cyclists. We see a track, we know its a
track because the tagging language of OSM is after all our native
language.

Take for example 
http://trigpoint.myzen.co.uk/photodump/20201212_150029.jpg

This is https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/718122173/history

It was originally mapped as a track, which is correct IMHO, I would not
drive my car with low profile tyres here although I have both ridden my
town and trail bike and walked here.

Mapping as these as tracks has served us as a community well over the
years. We have no use-case for them other than as walkers/cyclists and
our allies, the horse riders.

Recently paid mappers have started changing many of these tracks to
service roads, because the wiki says that tracks are for agricultural
and forestry use and as these tracks lead to farms and other properties
they cannot be tracks

I suspect one of the issues we are seeing goes back to the first
version of the highway=track wiki page which is where the
Agriculture/Forestry restriction appeared, although until these edits
began to appear I had never had cause to read the wiki to find out what
a track is, or to challenge the restrictive definition.

My 10p worth.

Phil (trigpoint)




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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

Hello Martin/Nick,

Perhaps the combination of highway, surface and designation will cover many of 
these use-cases?

e.g. a service road that looks like a track but is a service road, and has 
bridleway rights, could be tagged as:

highway=service; surface=unpaved; designation=public_bridleway

For rendering, if one rendered tracks or unpaved service roads as dashed black 
lines, and designations as coloured lines, you could render the designation 
layer as a coloured transparent line above the track/service road layer. This 
is what I do in my own projects.

Nick



From: Martin Wynne 
Sent: 13 December 2020 14:01
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

On 13/12/2020 13:45, Nick wrote:

> what do people think of Overlapping ways i.e. one is a road and
> a duplicate is a bridleway? Not elegant and something I would not
> normally suggest but...

Hi Nick,

When I've tried that in the past I've been jumped on for breaking a
fundamental rule of OSM that one feature should have only one entry in
the database.

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Martin Wynne]

On 13/12/2020 13:45, Nick wrote:

what do people think of Overlapping ways i.e. one is a road and 
a duplicate is a bridleway? Not elegant and something I would not 
normally suggest but...


Hi Nick,

When I've tried that in the past I've been jumped on for breaking a 
fundamental rule of OSM that one feature should have only one entry in 
the database.


Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Noverton Farm - driveway-becomes-track

[Martin Wynne]

On 13/12/2020 09:06, Nick Whitelegg wrote:

Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) 
sounded familiar.


A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a  long 
distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary 
footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme 
Valley. It was very nice *but*​ the footpaths were in an appaling state 
of disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to 
scramble through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire 
fences. I seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some 
particularly badly-maintained footpaths.


Hi Nick,

The footpaths in the area, or at least the ones walked by me, are now no 
worse than in other areas of Worcestershire. Here is Noverton Farm with 
stile:


 https://85a.uk/noverton_stile_1280x800.jpg

The heavy lifting appears to have been done by the local Ramblers 
volunteers:


 https://85a.uk/noverton_ramblers_1280x800.jpg

Others nearby have been replaced with galvanised kissing gates, again 
with the Ramblers doing the actual work.


The state of the footpath between them tends to depend on the time of 
year and the state of the crops. Farmers tend not to regard their legal 
requirement to reinstate footpaths within 14 days as being at the top of 
their to-do list.


cheers,

Martin.


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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Nick]

I will throw something in the pot, apart from using the "Cycle map" 
solution what do people think of Overlapping ways i.e. one is a road and 
a duplicate is a bridleway? Not elegant and something I would not 
normally suggest but...


On 13/12/2020 13:00, Martin Wynne wrote:
As the OP on this, all I can say is that in this part of the world, 
which includes that farm, that roadway would be called a "farm drive" 
(not "driveway") with double gates and a nameboard where it leaves the 
public road.


If you referred to the "track leading to the farm" the farmer might 
take offence after laying and rolling hardcore along it to make it 
suitable for all vehicles. A "track" is a narrow muddy lane between 
fields, and a farm at the end of one would typically be an old-time 
tumbledown affair, not one ready to receive delivery vans from Amazon.


However, my post was not about the naming, but about the rendering on 
the standard OSM map. Where at zoom level 15 driveways are not 
rendered, but lower-grade tracks and bridleways are. It doesn't make 
sense to a user of that map, although I can see the intended logic 
behind it.


The simplest solution would to remove the driveway tag and simply 
leave it as "service road". But that then causes it to be rendered on 
the standard map at the same width and colour as a minor public road, 
which is equally confusing to a map user. However, I notice that the 
entry gates have not been mapped, so adding those to a basic service 
road may be the best solution, and I will do that.


thanks,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] map styles on osm.org; other sites (was: Re: driveway-becomes-track)

[Nick]

Totally agree that openstreetmap.org isn't supposed to be a "general 
public" map destination but without knowing user journeys, I assume that 
is where most people land.


Options could be that openstreetmap.org provide alternative links based 
on locality and/or develop robust (N.B. tiles from opencyclemap.org 
seems to have security issue) local solutions that are found by search 
engines (i.e. good search engine optimisation)


On 13/12/2020 12:12, Andy Townsend wrote:



On 13/12/2020 11:16, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:

Note that someone who wants to show their map style at OSM website can
be included, though they must sponsor hosting

See 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Featured_tile_layers/Guidelines_for_new_tile_layers 



As far as I know, the main blocker seems to be
"Capable of meeting traffic demands. The proposed tile layer 
server/server farm
must be capable of accepting the traffic volume from the 
OpenStreetMap website."


ÖPNVKarte is map style that joined recently.

Dec 13, 2020, 12:08 by n...@foresters.org:

Seems to me that apart from the tagging, the issue highlighted
here is with how the general public can easily use OSM? Going to
the OSM map, the layers on offer are Standard, Cycle Map (which
does show the driveway connected) etc. but if a user wants a more
specific use this is not easy to find. To my mind this is where
more options from the worldwide map fail to deliver and is a
bigger issue that can be resolved by understanding the 'customer'
journey better?

The main blocker for a map that shows public footpaths etc. would 
actually be the "Global scope and coverage" requirement on that page, 
since public footpaths only exist in England and Wales.


It used to be possible to easily replace tiles from one of the map 
styles at osm.org with another one, but since the move to https-only 
tiles that's now much harder to do.  You can replace (say) 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/hot/9/253/166.png with 
https://tile-a.openstreetmap.fr/hot/9/253/166.png at the hosts file 
level, but need to click through a "scary browser warning" every few days.


More generally openstreetmap.org isn't really designed as a "general 
public" map destination, which is fair enough (it can't do 
everything).  It's easy to make suggestions like "it should do X as 
well" - the tricky bit is actually doing it and maintaining it.  I'd 
definitely prefer a project landing page that's closer to the German 
one https://openstreetmap.de/ , but I don't have the skills, energy, 
time or enthusiasm to make that happen.  I particularly like the 
"showroom" there - a link to lots of different map styles, separate 
from the main openstreetmap.de map.


Another example that is surely worth mentioning here is 
https://cycle.travel - that's designed for a particular use case.  I 
suspect that most people become aware of OSM by seeing the name at the 
bottom-right of a completely different site that someone sent them to 
because it was useful.  Another indication of this is the number of 
help questions that we see where people are having problems with "the 
openstreetmap app" or "the site gives an error" (and that site clearly 
isn't openstreetmap.org).


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Martin Wynne]

As the OP on this, all I can say is that in this part of the world, 
which includes that farm, that roadway would be called a "farm drive" 
(not "driveway") with double gates and a nameboard where it leaves the 
public road.


If you referred to the "track leading to the farm" the farmer might take 
offence after laying and rolling hardcore along it to make it suitable 
for all vehicles. A "track" is a narrow muddy lane between fields, and a 
farm at the end of one would typically be an old-time tumbledown affair, 
not one ready to receive delivery vans from Amazon.


However, my post was not about the naming, but about the rendering on 
the standard OSM map. Where at zoom level 15 driveways are not rendered, 
but lower-grade tracks and bridleways are. It doesn't make sense to a 
user of that map, although I can see the intended logic behind it.


The simplest solution would to remove the driveway tag and simply leave 
it as "service road". But that then causes it to be rendered on the 
standard map at the same width and colour as a minor public road, which 
is equally confusing to a map user. However, I notice that the entry 
gates have not been mapped, so adding those to a basic service road may 
be the best solution, and I will do that.


thanks,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Andy Townsend]

On 13/12/2020 11:30, ael via Talk-GB wrote:

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 10:44:24AM +, Peter Neale via Talk-GB wrote:

IMHO, if it leads on to another road, track, etc. it is not a "driveway", but 
could be a track, a bridleway, a service road, or something else.

FWIIW, I would very definitely tag that as a service road. Driveway
seems quite inappropriate.


Based on what I've seen, I'd probably tag the whole thing as a track 
with appropriate surface tags :) , but I can think of plenty of 
unequivacal driveways that have public rights of way along them.


https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/529287631 is pretty typical, 
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/119h finds lots more.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Dudley Ibbett]

OSMAND has recently had some very positive comments about walking on an 
unrelated (to OSM) forum I use.  It also doesn't appear to render on the basis 
of whether there is a service=driveway tag at the moment.  In the field, as a 
walker, given you can download the maps, it is what I would consider suggesting 
someone try if they asked me rather than the main OSM website.

I've had the debate about the use of track/service some time ago.

I go the impression that highway=track was initially used based on the surface 
rather than the "function".

I now try and tag on the basis of what I think is the function.  So if it is 
the highway to an isolated residence or residences (farmyards that have been 
sold off for housing are quite often multiple residences) or a farmyard (which 
will include a residence) I would use highway=service and service=driveway.  I 
would add a surface tag for the surface.  I might even add a tracktype tag as 
in reality this is just another descriptor for a surface.   If the highway is 
to farm buildings only (you get isolated barn/s in fields) or into fields I 
would use highway=track.

One advantage of having service=driveway rendered differently on the main OSM 
website is that you can use it to QC your use  of this tag!

Dudley




From: ael via Talk-GB 
Sent: 13 December 2020 11:41
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 09:11:32PM +, Martin Wynne wrote:
> On 12/12/2020 17:37, Andy Townsend wrote:
>
>
> What I'm wondering is how the typical recreational country walker would find
> that map, or get it on their mobile phone app in place of the awful Google
> maps? It's a lot of work to create if no-one ever uses it?

Just to mention that I use navit on my satnavs, and that has a good
"POI" feature which would show benches in the vicinity. I understand
that there is a Android version, so presumably it works on those
types of smartphone.

https://github.com/navit-gps & https://www.navit-project.org/ etc.

ael


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[Talk-GB] map styles on osm.org; other sites (was: Re: driveway-becomes-track)

[Andy Townsend]

On 13/12/2020 11:16, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:

Note that someone who wants to show their map style at OSM website can
be included, though they must sponsor hosting

See 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Featured_tile_layers/Guidelines_for_new_tile_layers


As far as I know, the main blocker seems to be
"Capable of meeting traffic demands. The proposed tile layer 
server/server farm
must be capable of accepting the traffic volume from the OpenStreetMap 
website."


ÖPNVKarte is map style that joined recently.

Dec 13, 2020, 12:08 by n...@foresters.org:

Seems to me that apart from the tagging, the issue highlighted
here is with how the general public can easily use OSM? Going to
the OSM map, the layers on offer are Standard, Cycle Map (which
does show the driveway connected) etc. but if a user wants a more
specific use this is not easy to find. To my mind this is where
more options from the worldwide map fail to deliver and is a
bigger issue that can be resolved by understanding the 'customer'
journey better?

The main blocker for a map that shows public footpaths etc. would 
actually be the "Global scope and coverage" requirement on that page, 
since public footpaths only exist in England and Wales.


It used to be possible to easily replace tiles from one of the map 
styles at osm.org with another one, but since the move to https-only 
tiles that's now much harder to do.  You can replace (say) 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/hot/9/253/166.png with 
https://tile-a.openstreetmap.fr/hot/9/253/166.png at the hosts file 
level, but need to click through a "scary browser warning" every few days.


More generally openstreetmap.org isn't really designed as a "general 
public" map destination, which is fair enough (it can't do everything).  
It's easy to make suggestions like "it should do X as well" - the tricky 
bit is actually doing it and maintaining it.  I'd definitely prefer a 
project landing page that's closer to the German one 
https://openstreetmap.de/ , but I don't have the skills, energy, time or 
enthusiasm to make that happen.  I particularly like the "showroom" 
there - a link to lots of different map styles, separate from the main 
openstreetmap.de map.


Another example that is surely worth mentioning here is 
https://cycle.travel - that's designed for a particular use case. I 
suspect that most people become aware of OSM by seeing the name at the 
bottom-right of a completely different site that someone sent them to 
because it was useful.  Another indication of this is the number of help 
questions that we see where people are having problems with "the 
openstreetmap app" or "the site gives an error" (and that site clearly 
isn't openstreetmap.org).


Best Regards,

Andy


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[Talk-GB] weeklyOSM #542 2020-12-01-2020-12-07

[weeklyteam]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 542,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of a lot of 
things happening in the openstreetmap world:

 https://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/14046/

Enjoy! 

Did you know that you can also submit messages for the weeklyOSM? Just log in 
to https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login with your OSM account. Read more about 
how to write a post here: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

weeklyOSM? 
who: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Alan Mackie]

On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 11:14, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB <
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> I run into from time to time and was unsure how to tag this.
>
> On the other hand highway=track is supposed to be used on
> roads used to access fields/forests (often unpaved and of low
> quality, but there are also high quality asphalt
> tracktype=grade1 surface=asphalt ones).
>

I think I have said this previously, but this feels like a very "old world"
viewpoint to me (and yes I do know which list this is). Lexico's first
definition [1] more closely agrees with my feeling on the matter, but over
time the OSM wiki seems to have been edited progressively further away from
this usage.

In countries with a longer history, farming and forestry may be the last
bastions for this sort of "improvised but then improved as necessary" road,
but to my mind it is still counterintuitive to define tracks as "for
farming and forestry work". I would tend to say that the higher grades of
track may be more appropriately tagged as service roads, especially if they
look like someone's gone along and reworked them to be less 'opportunistic'
at some point. Yes, they serve a farm rather than a warehouse, but they are
still largely the same function.

[1]: https://www.lexico.com/definition/track


> So with road that is both access road to single house and
> forest neither highway=track nor highway=service service=driveway
> really matches.
>

I think it's a service road, drop the 'driveway' part for the multi-use
portion.


> Dec 13, 2020, 11:44 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:
>
> IMHO, if it leads on to another road, track, etc. it is not a "driveway",
> but could be a track, a bridleway, a service road, or something else.
>
> The Wiki says that a driveway is (with my bold for emphasis),
>
> " ... a minor service road leading to a residential or business property.
> It typically branches from a bigger road and leads toward an entrance to a
> specific destination (building, etc.). It may end at or pass the entrance,
> but either way, it gets close to its destination. *It is rare for a
> driveway to be the way to access another roadway (but see Pipestems
> below)."*
>
> (pipestems allow a driveway to be shared between several properties)
>
> So if, in this case, it leads on to another way (e.g. a bridleway, or a
> track), it is not a driveway.  Does this solve the problem?
>
> Regards,
> Peter
>
> Peter Neale
> t: 01908 309666
> m: 07968 341930
> skype: nealepb
>
>
> On Sunday, 13 December 2020, 10:25:46 GMT, Edward Bainton <
> bainton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Sorry, I joined this thread late and I see the initial query was, How to
> ensure tracks don't just pop up nowhere'. So driveway first then track
> doesn't solve the problem.
>
> That makes me say track all the way, as someone else has said. The
> different surfaces can be caught in the attributes.
>
> On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 10:08, Edward Bainton 
> wrote:
>
> >  https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
> >
> > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If
> > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for
> > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"
> > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.
>
> I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights,
> I'd probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes
> the farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to
> a building).
>
> Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track?
>
> I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is
> what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for
> the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say
> track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by
> "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and suburban.
>
> But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I
> await correction by my olders.
>
> On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB <
> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> >Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
> >cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
> >buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:
>
>   >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>
>
> Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm)
> sounded familiar.
>
> A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a  long
> distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary
> footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme
> Valley. It was very nice *but* the footpaths were in an appaling state of
> disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to scramble
> through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I
> seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the 

Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[ael via Talk-GB]

On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 09:11:32PM +, Martin Wynne wrote:
> On 12/12/2020 17:37, Andy Townsend wrote:
> 
> 
> What I'm wondering is how the typical recreational country walker would find
> that map, or get it on their mobile phone app in place of the awful Google
> maps? It's a lot of work to create if no-one ever uses it?

Just to mention that I use navit on my satnavs, and that has a good
"POI" feature which would show benches in the vicinity. I understand
that there is a Android version, so presumably it works on those
types of smartphone.

https://github.com/navit-gps & https://www.navit-project.org/ etc.

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[ael via Talk-GB]

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 10:44:24AM +, Peter Neale via Talk-GB wrote:
> IMHO, if it leads on to another road, track, etc. it is not a "driveway", but 
> could be a track, a bridleway, a service road, or something else.

FWIIW, I would very definitely tag that as a service road. Driveway
seems quite inappropriate.

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB]

Note that someone who wants to show their map style at OSM website can
be included, though they must sponsor hosting

See 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Featured_tile_layers/Guidelines_for_new_tile_layers

As far as I know, the main blocker seems to be 
"Capable of meeting traffic demands. The proposed tile layer server/server farm
must be capable of accepting the traffic volume from the OpenStreetMap website."

ÖPNVKarte is map style that joined recently.

Dec 13, 2020, 12:08 by n...@foresters.org:

>
> Seems to me that apart from the tagging, the issue highlighted  here is 
> with how the general public cab easily use OSM? Going to  the OSM map, 
> the layers on offer are Standard, Cycle Map (which  does show the 
> driveway connected) etc. but if a user wants a more  specific use this is 
> not easy to find. To my mind this is where  more options from the 
> worldwide map fail to deliver and is a  bigger issue that can be resolved 
> by understanding the 'customer'  journey better? 
>
> On 13/12/2020 10:28, Nick Allen wrote:
>  
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I tend to think of tagging more in terms of 'who will usethis?' I 
>> know my local area extremely well, so I map it as bestI can using 
>> tags that will make sense to anyone visiting thearea. When I'm away 
>> from home I use OSM extensively to findthings, and hope that the 
>> local mappers are using a universalscheme so that it will work for 
>> me.
>>
>> I've travelled on roads in Portugal, Spain an parts of Africawhich 
>> dont have a surface such as tarmac (tarmacadam / asphalt)or 
>> concrete, but instead have been built with a top coatingsimilar to 
>> clay, which is compressed and then smoothed using agrader. 
>> Particularly in Portugal, at the time I drove on them,these 
>> 'unsurfaced' roads were so good that they were better thanthe (at 
>> that time) M25 which was full of pot-holes and difficultto drive 
>> safely on.
>>
>> Although >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highways>>  is the obvious 
>> choice to look at, I actually find that >> 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa>>  explains it better.
>>
>> Regards & Happy Mapping / Surveying
>>
>> Nick
>> (Tallguy)
>>
>> On Sun, 2020-12-13 at 10:08 +, Edward Bainton wrote:
>>
>>> >  >>> https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>>>  >
>>>  >>> > It seems daft to methat the mud gets rendered but not 
>>> the hardcore. If
>>>  >>> > I change the "driveway"to "track" that would be the 
>>> dreaded tagging for
>>>  >>> > the renderer would itnot? Generally in this part of the 
>>> world "track"
>>>  >>> > means mud, rather thana roadway suitable for all 
>>> vehicles.
>>>  
>>>
>>> I don't know what part  of the world you're in, but by my 
>>> Fenland lights, I'd  probably call that a track, not a driveway 
>>> - certainly  once it passes the farm buildings (since I see a 
>>> driveway  as implying car-worthy access to a building). 
>>>
>>> Would that solve it?  Driveway as far as the farm and then 
>>> track?
>>>
>>> I'm going to risk  blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the 
>>> renderer is  what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem 
>>> imo is  "fudging it for the renderer", or "outright lying for 
>>> the  renderer". In this case, I'd say track is a valid choice - 
>>>  I think even for the whole length, if by "driveway" we 
>>>  infer something, short, tidy, and suburban.
>>>
>>> But I'm still a spring  chicken round here, relatively 
>>> speaking, and I await  correction by my olders.
>>>
>>> On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB <>>> 
>>> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>>> >wrote:
>>>
 >Getting  back to this case, this is the farm drive. 
 >Beyond the
   >cattle-grid  the public bridleway continues left 
 through the farm
   >buildings,  and the surface deteriorates to the 
 usual farm mud:
  
      > https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg


 Apologies  for going off topic, but I knew that name 
 (Noverton  Farm) sounded familiar.

 A  quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998   
I did a  long distance walk from Sussex to the Peak 
  District, following ordinary footpaths (planned using 
  OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme Valley. 
  It was very nice  but  the footpaths were in an appaling state of 
  disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day   
having to 

Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB]

I run into from time to time and was unsure how to tag this.

On the other hand highway=track is supposed to be used on
roads used to access fields/forests (often unpaved and of low
quality, but there are also high quality asphalt
tracktype=grade1 surface=asphalt ones).

So with road that is both access road to single house and
forest neither highway=track nor highway=service service=driveway
really matches.

Dec 13, 2020, 11:44 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:

> IMHO, if it leads on to another road, track, etc. it is not a "driveway", but 
> could be a track, a bridleway, a service road, or something else.
>
> The Wiki says that a driveway is (with my bold for emphasis), 
>
> " ... a minor service road leading to a residential or business property. It 
> typically branches from a bigger road and leads toward an entrance to a 
> specific destination (building, etc.). It may end at or pass the entrance, 
> but either way, it gets close to its destination. > It is rare for a driveway 
> to be the way to access another roadway (but see Pipestems below)."
>
> (pipestems allow a driveway to be shared between several properties)
>
> So if, in this case, it leads on to another way (e.g. a bridleway, or a 
> track), it is not a driveway.  Does this solve the problem?
>
> Regards,
> Peter
>
> Peter Neale
> t: 01908 309666 
> m: 07968 341930 
> skype: nealepb
>
>
> On Sunday, 13 December 2020, 10:25:46 GMT, Edward Bainton 
>  wrote:
>
>
> Sorry, I joined this thread late and I see the initial query was, How to 
> ensure tracks don't just pop up nowhere'. So driveway first then track 
> doesn't solve the problem.
>
> That makes me say track all the way, as someone else has said. The different 
> surfaces can be caught in the attributes.
>
> On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 10:08, Edward Bainton <> bainton@gmail.com> > 
> wrote:
>
>> >  >> https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>> >
>> > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If
>> > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for
>> > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"
>> > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.
>>
>> I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights, I'd 
>> probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes the 
>> farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to a 
>> building). 
>>
>> Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track?
>>
>> I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is 
>> what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for 
>> the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say 
>> track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by 
>> "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and suburban.
>>
>> But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I await 
>> correction by my olders.
>>
>> On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB <>> 
>> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> > wrote:
>>
>>> >Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
>>>  >>> >cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
>>>  >>> >buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:
>>>  
>>>  >>>  >>>   https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>> Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) sounded 
>>> familiar.
>>>
>>> A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a  long 
>>> distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary 
>>> footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme 
>>> Valley. It was very nice >>> but>>> ​ the footpaths were in an appaling 
>>> state of disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to 
>>> scramble through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire 
>>> fences. I seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some 
>>> particularly badly-maintained footpaths.
>>>
>>> As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to 
>>> illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, 
>>> which is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I 
>>> still haven't illustrated this walk incidentally, but...
>>>
>>> Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since..
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From:>>>  Martin Wynne <>>> mar...@templot.com>>> >
>>>  >>> Sent:>>>  12 December 2020 14:30
>>>  >>> To:>>>  >>> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>>>  <>>> 
>>> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>>> >
>>>  >>> Subject:>>>  Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track>>>  >>>  
>>>
>>> On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote:
>>>  
>>>  > 
>>>  > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. 
>>>  > Perhaps that someone is you?
>>>  
>>>  Hi Andy,
>>>  
>>>  Yes that someone could be me. I have a server 

Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Nick]

Seems to me that apart from the tagging, the issue highlighted here is 
with how the general public cab easily use OSM? Going to the OSM map, 
the layers on offer are Standard, Cycle Map (which does show the 
driveway connected) etc. but if a user wants a more specific use this is 
not easy to find. To my mind this is where more options from the 
worldwide map fail to deliver and is a bigger issue that can be resolved 
by understanding the 'customer' journey better?


On 13/12/2020 10:28, Nick Allen wrote:

Hi,

I tend to think of tagging more in terms of 'who will use this?' I 
know my local area extremely well, so I map it as best I can using 
tags that will make sense to anyone visiting the area. When I'm away 
from home I use OSM extensively to find things, and hope that the 
local mappers are using a universal scheme so that it will work for me.


I've travelled on roads in Portugal, Spain an parts of Africa which 
dont have a surface such as tarmac (tarmacadam / asphalt) or concrete, 
but instead have been built with a top coating similar to clay, which 
is compressed and then smoothed using a grader. Particularly in 
Portugal, at the time I drove on them, these 'unsurfaced' roads were 
so good that they were better than the (at that time) M25 which was 
full of pot-holes and difficult to drive safely on.


Although https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highways 
 is the obvious choice 
to look at, I actually find that 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa 
 explains it 
better.


Regards & Happy Mapping / Surveying

Nick
(Tallguy)

On Sun, 2020-12-13 at 10:08 +, Edward Bainton wrote:
>  https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg 


>
> It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If
> I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for
> the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"
> means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.

I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland 
lights, I'd probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly 
once it passes the farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying 
car-worthy access to a building).


Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track?

I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer 
is what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging 
it for the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this 
case, I'd say track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole 
length, if by "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and suburban.


But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I 
await correction by my olders.


On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB 
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:

>Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
>cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
>buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:

 >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg 




Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) 
sounded familiar.


A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a  
long distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following 
ordinary footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this 
area, the Teme Valley. It was very nice *but* the footpaths were in 
an appaling state of disrepair, I remember on several occasions that 
day having to scramble through dense shrub cover and attempt to 
negotiate barbed-wire fences. I seem to recall Noverton Farm as 
being the site of some particularly badly-maintained footpaths.


As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted 
to illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not 
permit it, which is how I started Freemap and then later got 
involved with OSM. I still haven't illustrated this walk 
incidentally, but...


Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since..

Nick



*From:* Martin Wynne mailto:mar...@templot.com>>
*Sent:* 12 December 2020 14:30
*To:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org  
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>>

*Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote:

>
> Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it.
> Perhaps that someone is you?

Hi Andy,

Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus,
Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space
and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, 
possibly

by hosting something from OSM.


 >  I'd suggest setting up a copy of the
 > 

Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

Hi everyone,

I notice I'm being CCed in quite a bit here.

Just to make it clear, there are at least two "Nick"s on the thread. I just 
made the comment about Noverton Farm - it's another Nick who has made most of 
the contributions.

It's an interesting thread but just want to make sure that I am not being 
attributed to posts I didn't make.

Thanks,
Nick



From: Peter Neale 
Sent: 13 December 2020 10:44
To: Nick Whitelegg ; Edward Bainton 

Cc: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

IMHO, if it leads on to another road, track, etc. it is not a "driveway", but 
could be a track, a bridleway, a service road, or something else.

The Wiki says that a driveway is (with my bold for emphasis),

" ... a minor service road leading to a residential or business property. It 
typically branches from a bigger road and leads toward an entrance to a 
specific destination (building, etc.). It may end at or pass the entrance, but 
either way, it gets close to its destination. It is rare for a driveway to be 
the way to access another roadway (but see Pipestems below)."

(pipestems allow a driveway to be shared between several properties)

So if, in this case, it leads on to another way (e.g. a bridleway, or a track), 
it is not a driveway.  Does this solve the problem?

Regards,
Peter

Peter Neale
t: 01908 309666
m: 07968 341930
skype: nealepb


On Sunday, 13 December 2020, 10:25:46 GMT, Edward Bainton 
 wrote:


Sorry, I joined this thread late and I see the initial query was, How to ensure 
tracks don't just pop up nowhere'. So driveway first then track doesn't solve 
the problem.

That makes me say track all the way, as someone else has said. The different 
surfaces can be caught in the attributes.

On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 10:08, Edward Bainton 
mailto:bainton@gmail.com>> wrote:
>  https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>
> It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If
> I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for
> the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"
> means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.

I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights, I'd 
probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes the farm 
buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to a building).

Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track?

I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is what 
we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for the 
renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say track is 
a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by "driveway" we infer 
something, short, tidy, and suburban.

But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I await 
correction by my olders.

On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB 
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:
>Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
>cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
>buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:

  >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg


Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) sounded 
familiar.

A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a  long distance 
walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary footpaths (planned 
using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme Valley. It was very nice 
but​ the footpaths were in an appaling state of disrepair, I remember on 
several occasions that day having to scramble through dense shrub cover and 
attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I seem to recall Noverton Farm as 
being the site of some particularly badly-maintained footpaths.

As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to 
illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, which 
is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I still haven't 
illustrated this walk incidentally, but...

Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since..

Nick



From: Martin Wynne mailto:mar...@templot.com>>
Sent: 12 December 2020 14:30
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>>
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote:

>
> Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it.
> Perhaps that someone is you?

Hi Andy,

Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus,
Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space
and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly
by hosting something from OSM.


 >  I'd suggest setting up a copy of the
 > standard map rendering as 

Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Peter Neale via Talk-GB]

IMHO, if it leads on to another road, track, etc. it is not a "driveway", but 
could be a track, a bridleway, a service road, or something else.
The Wiki says that a driveway is (with my bold for emphasis), 
" ... a minor service road leading to a residential or business property. It 
typically branches from a bigger road and leads toward an entrance to a 
specific destination (building, etc.). It may end at or pass the entrance, but 
either way, it gets close to its destination. It is rare for a driveway to be 
the way to access another roadway (but see Pipestems below)."
(pipestems allow a driveway to be shared between several properties)
So if, in this case, it leads on to another way (e.g. a bridleway, or a track), 
it is not a driveway.  Does this solve the problem?
Regards,Peter
 Peter Neale 
t: 01908 309666 
m: 07968 341930 
skype: nealepb 

On Sunday, 13 December 2020, 10:25:46 GMT, Edward Bainton 
 wrote:  
 
 Sorry, I joined this thread late and I see the initial query was, How to 
ensure tracks don't just pop up nowhere'. So driveway first then track doesn't 
solve the problem.
That makes me say track all the way, as someone else has said. The different 
surfaces can be caught in the attributes.
On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 10:08, Edward Bainton  wrote:

>  https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>
> It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If
> I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for
> the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"
> means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.

I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights, I'd 
probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes the farm 
buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to a building). 
Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track?
I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is what 
we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for the 
renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say track is 
a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by "driveway" we infer 
something, short, tidy, and suburban.
But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I await 
correction by my olders.
On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB 
 wrote:

>Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
>cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
>buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:

  >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg


Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) sounded 
familiar.
A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a  long distance 
walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary footpaths (planned 
using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme Valley. It was very 
nicebut​ the footpaths were in an appaling state of disrepair, I remember on 
several occasions that day having to scramble through dense shrub cover and 
attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I seem to recall Noverton Farm as 
being the site of some particularly badly-maintained footpaths.
As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to 
illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, which 
is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I still haven't 
illustrated this walk incidentally, but...
Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since..
Nick



From: Martin Wynne 
Sent: 12 December 2020 14:30
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy 
Townsend wrote:

> 
> Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. 
> Perhaps that someone is you?

Hi Andy,

Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus, 
Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space 
and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly 
by hosting something from OSM.


 >  I'd suggest setting up a copy of the
 > standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/
 > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the
 > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as
 > 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475



Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ but
I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for 
the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only 
for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now.

I will have another look and see where I might start. The idea of 
creating my own map does appeal to me.

Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. 

Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Edward Catmur via Talk-GB]

On Sun, 13 Dec 2020, 10:23 Edward Bainton,  wrote:

> Sorry, I joined this thread late and I see the initial query was, How to
> ensure tracks don't just pop up nowhere'. So driveway first then track
> doesn't solve the problem.
>
> That makes me say track all the way, as someone else has said. The
> different surfaces can be caught in the attributes.
>

If I understand correctly, the way is at once a service road, a track, a
bridleway and a driveway, and the problem is that tagging it
service=driveway makes data consumers categorise it as a driveway, which is
considered to be less important than a track or bridleway.

So why not tag it highway=service service=track driveway=yes? That should
allow data consumers to reach the correct category while preserving
information.


On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 10:08, Edward Bainton  wrote:
>
>> >  https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>> >
>> > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If
>> > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for
>> > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"
>> > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.
>>
>> I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights,
>> I'd probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes
>> the farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to
>> a building).
>>
>> Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track?
>>
>> I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is
>> what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for
>> the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say
>> track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by
>> "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and suburban.
>>
>> But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I
>> await correction by my olders.
>>
>> On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB <
>> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>>
>>> >Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
>>> >cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
>>> >buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:
>>>
>>>   >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>> Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm)
>>> sounded familiar.
>>>
>>> A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a  long
>>> distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary
>>> footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme
>>> Valley. It was very nice *but*​ the footpaths were in an appaling state
>>> of disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to scramble
>>> through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I
>>> seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some particularly
>>> badly-maintained footpaths.
>>>
>>> As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to
>>> illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it,
>>> which is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I
>>> still haven't illustrated this walk incidentally, but...
>>>
>>> Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since..
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *From:* Martin Wynne 
>>> *Sent:* 12 December 2020 14:30
>>> *To:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
>>>
>>> On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it.
>>> > Perhaps that someone is you?
>>>
>>> Hi Andy,
>>>
>>> Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus,
>>> Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space
>>> and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly
>>> by hosting something from OSM.
>>>
>>>
>>>  >  I'd suggest setting up a copy of the
>>>  > standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/
>>>  > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the
>>>  > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as
>>>  >
>>>
>>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/
>>> but
>>> I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for
>>> the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only
>>> for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now.
>>>
>>> I will have another look and see where I might start. The idea of
>>> creating my own map does appeal to me.
>>>
>>> Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
>>> cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through 

Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Nick Allen]

Hi,
I tend to think of tagging more in terms of 'who will use this?' I know
my local area extremely well, so I map it as best I can using tags that
will make sense to anyone visiting the area. When I'm away from home I
use OSM extensively to find things, and hope that the local mappers are
using a universal scheme so that it will work for me. 
I've travelled on roads in Portugal, Spain an parts of Africa which
dont have a surface such as tarmac (tarmacadam / asphalt) or concrete,
but instead have been built with a top coating similar to clay, which
is compressed and then smoothed using a grader. Particularly in
Portugal, at the time I drove on them, these 'unsurfaced' roads were so
good that they were better than the (at that time) M25 which was full
of pot-holes and difficult to drive safely on.
Although https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highways is the obvious
choice to look at, I actually find that 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa explains it
better.
Regards & Happy Mapping / Surveying
Nick(Tallguy)
On Sun, 2020-12-13 at 10:08 +, Edward Bainton wrote:
> >  https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
> >
> > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the
> hardcore. If
> > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded
> tagging for
> > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world
> "track"
> > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.
> 
> 
> I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland
> lights, I'd probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly
> once it passes the farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying
> car-worthy access to a building). 
> 
> 
> Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track?
> 
> 
> I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer
> is what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging
> it for the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this
> case, I'd say track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole
> length, if by "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and
> suburban.
> 
> 
> But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I
> await correction by my olders.
> 
> On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB <
> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > >Getting back to this
> >  case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
> > 
> > >cattle-grid the public
> >  bridleway continues left through the farm
> > 
> > >buildings, and the surface
> >  deteriorates to the usual farm mud:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm)
> > sounded familiar.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a 
> > long distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following
> > ordinary footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this
> > area, the Teme Valley. It was very nice
> > but the footpaths were in an appaling state of disrepair, I
> > remember on several occasions that day having to scramble through
> > dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I
> > seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some particularly
> >  badly-maintained footpaths.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted
> > to illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not
> > permit it, which is how I started Freemap and then later got
> > involved with OSM. I still haven't illustrated this walk
> > incidentally,
> >  but...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since..
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Nick
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > From: Martin Wynne 
> > 
> > Sent: 12 December 2020 14:30
> > 
> > To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do
> > it. 
> > 
> > > Perhaps that someone is you?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Andy,
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in
> > Columbus, 
> > 
> > Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory
> > space 
> > 
> > and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it,
> > possibly 
> > 
> > by hosting something from OSM.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  >  I'd suggest setting up a copy of the
> > 
> >  > standard map rendering as per 
> > https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/
> > 
> >  > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with
> > the
> > 
> >  > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as
> > 
> >  > 
> > 
> > 

Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Edward Bainton]

Sorry, I joined this thread late and I see the initial query was, How to
ensure tracks don't just pop up nowhere'. So driveway first then track
doesn't solve the problem.

That makes me say track all the way, as someone else has said. The
different surfaces can be caught in the attributes.

On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 10:08, Edward Bainton  wrote:

> >  https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
> >
> > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If
> > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for
> > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"
> > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.
>
> I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights,
> I'd probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes
> the farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to
> a building).
>
> Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track?
>
> I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is
> what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for
> the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say
> track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by
> "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and suburban.
>
> But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I
> await correction by my olders.
>
> On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB <
> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> >Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
>> >cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
>> >buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:
>>
>>   >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>>
>>
>> Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm)
>> sounded familiar.
>>
>> A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a  long
>> distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary
>> footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme
>> Valley. It was very nice *but*​ the footpaths were in an appaling state
>> of disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to scramble
>> through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I
>> seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some particularly
>> badly-maintained footpaths.
>>
>> As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to
>> illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it,
>> which is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I
>> still haven't illustrated this walk incidentally, but...
>>
>> Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since..
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From:* Martin Wynne 
>> *Sent:* 12 December 2020 14:30
>> *To:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
>> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
>>
>> On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it.
>> > Perhaps that someone is you?
>>
>> Hi Andy,
>>
>> Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus,
>> Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space
>> and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly
>> by hosting something from OSM.
>>
>>
>>  >  I'd suggest setting up a copy of the
>>  > standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/
>>  > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the
>>  > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as
>>  >
>>
>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ but
>> I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for
>> the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only
>> for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now.
>>
>> I will have another look and see where I might start. The idea of
>> creating my own map does appeal to me.
>>
>> Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
>> cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
>> buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:
>>
>>   https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>>
>> It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If
>> I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for
>> the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"
>> means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.
>>
>> This is where the farm drive leaves the road - this is definitely more
>> than a "track" - note the double gates:
>>
>>   https://goo.gl/maps/XEs4XKs5UUHNBt8E8
>>
>> 

Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Edward Bainton]

>  https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>
> It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If
> I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for
> the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"
> means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.

I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights,
I'd probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes
the farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to
a building).

Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track?

I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is
what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for
the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say
track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by
"driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and suburban.

But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I await
correction by my olders.

On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB <
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> >Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
> >cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
> >buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:
>
>   >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>
>
> Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm)
> sounded familiar.
>
> A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a  long
> distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary
> footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme
> Valley. It was very nice *but*​ the footpaths were in an appaling state
> of disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to scramble
> through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I
> seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some particularly
> badly-maintained footpaths.
>
> As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to
> illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it,
> which is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I
> still haven't illustrated this walk incidentally, but...
>
> Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since..
>
> Nick
>
>
> --
> *From:* Martin Wynne 
> *Sent:* 12 December 2020 14:30
> *To:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
>
> On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote:
>
> >
> > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it.
> > Perhaps that someone is you?
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus,
> Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space
> and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly
> by hosting something from OSM.
>
>
>  >  I'd suggest setting up a copy of the
>  > standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/
>  > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the
>  > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as
>  >
>
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475
>
>
>
> Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ but
> I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for
> the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only
> for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now.
>
> I will have another look and see where I might start. The idea of
> creating my own map does appeal to me.
>
> Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
> cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
> buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:
>
>   https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>
> It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If
> I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for
> the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"
> means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.
>
> This is where the farm drive leaves the road - this is definitely more
> than a "track" - note the double gates:
>
>   https://goo.gl/maps/XEs4XKs5UUHNBt8E8
>
> cheers,
>
> Martin.
>
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[Talk-GB] MapThePaths downtime next weekend Dec 19/20

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

Hello everyone,

A warning that the MapThePaths site (www.mapthepaths.org.uk) and also perhaps 
Freemap will be unavailable next weekend, Dec 19/20, and possibly into the 
early part of next week.

The reason is that I am updating the OSM data on the server next weekend.

I have decided to create a smaller Hetzner server for my UK-specific OSM 
projects, notably MapThePaths, and leave the current server to focus on the 
Europe-wide (and potentially worldwide, but my funds don't stretch to this) 
Hikar and OpenTrailView projects.

This new server may, dependent on time and interest, also be used for 
experimenting with creating an OSM UK walkers' map. I will be willing to give 
shell accounts to trusted members of the OSM UK community (people I know 
personally or mailing list regulars). More on that later.

Nick



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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

>Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
>cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
>buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:

  >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg


Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) sounded 
familiar.

A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a  long distance 
walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary footpaths (planned 
using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme Valley. It was very nice 
but​ the footpaths were in an appaling state of disrepair, I remember on 
several occasions that day having to scramble through dense shrub cover and 
attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I seem to recall Noverton Farm as 
being the site of some particularly badly-maintained footpaths.

As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to 
illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, which 
is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I still haven't 
illustrated this walk incidentally, but...

Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since..

Nick



From: Martin Wynne 
Sent: 12 December 2020 14:30
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote:

>
> Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it.
> Perhaps that someone is you?

Hi Andy,

Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus,
Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space
and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly
by hosting something from OSM.


 >  I'd suggest setting up a copy of the
 > standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/
 > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the
 > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as
 >
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475



Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ but
I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for
the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only
for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now.

I will have another look and see where I might start. The idea of
creating my own map does appeal to me.

Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:

  https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg

It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If
I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for
the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"
means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.

This is where the farm drive leaves the road - this is definitely more
than a "track" - note the double gates:

  https://goo.gl/maps/XEs4XKs5UUHNBt8E8

cheers,

Martin.

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