Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?
Christoph Böhme wrote: I found the time (or rather an easier solution to the problem): NOVAM now uses the XAPI servers to retrieve the bus stop data. So, it should be up-to-date again and hopefully in the future as well :-) Good news, I have missed it. Cheers, Chris ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?
Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net schrieb: 2010/3/16 Christoph Böhme christ...@b3e.net Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net schrieb: I recall a tool developed for the west midlands showing the state of the imported data, but can that be used nationwide? I reckon you are refering to NOVAM (http://mappa-mercia.org/novam)? The tool is working nationwide. However, the data it shows has not been updated since February, because the update process NOVAM uses is currently broken. I do not have much spare time at the moment but I will try to fix this at some point (hopefully soon). Lovely, thanks for the link and best of luck with finding that time :-) I found the time (or rather an easier solution to the problem): NOVAM now uses the XAPI servers to retrieve the bus stop data. So, it should be up-to-date again and hopefully in the future as well :-) The cycle map and regular chatter have seen coverage blossom. Obviously bus stops aren't as interesting to fellow OSM nutters as cycle routes; and the cycle map was an early mover and got onto the front page of the main web site. But can't we make a bit more of an effort to push this across the GB community? I have the feeling that one of the reasons for the relatively low interest in bus stops is that their use is quite limited without additional timetable information. I gave a talk on OSM to my local Tenants Association federation for Southwark (a municipal area in London). They absolutely loved the public transport map (www.öpnvkarte.de http://www.xn--pnvkarte-m4a.de) which has the bus stops along with bus/train/tube/DLR/tram routes. It's very similar to the cycle map, only most OSM mappers cycle everywhere whilst few find the public transport particularly useful. So limited to us, perhaps. Later this year if I get some time and I'm not elected in the local elections I intend to spend some more time with tenants helping them to put the data in since they find it handy. Public transport maps are of course very useful! However, I was more thinking in terms of developing other applications which use public transport data. Things like public transport routing or a map which highlights bus stops where a bus is due to arrive soon, for example. Most applications that come to my mind would require timetable information. Best, Christoph Best, Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?
Gregory wrote: Ah, I hadn't seen http://openbusmap.org/ / http://www.öpnvkarte.de/ http://www.xn--pnvkarte-m4a.de/ before. It looks cool and I sometimes want to know the route the buses take (in a non-schematic way). Just a quick look of my parents place and I've spotted two routes that are slightly off. It does look a nice render - I was impressed that the IOW Steam Railway shows as well as the 'main line' train. All the ferries too! This beats several of the commercial maps, my car still refuses to believe in the Southampton-Cowes fairy! It only appears to go to Zoom 13 though - not quite big enough to read the print, without getting out of my chair... I shall show it to some folk see what enthusiasm it can engender :) Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?
We've been using it on the http://mappa-mercia.org/public-transport-map.shtml site for the last year and it's been invaluable. Generally the updates have been about a week to 10 days behind but sometimes up to 3 weeks in the past. Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: talk-gb-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-gb- boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Richard Mann Sent: 17 March 2010 9:29 AM To: Mark Williams Cc: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics; OSM - Talk GB Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest? On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Mark Williams mark@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Gregory wrote: It only appears to go to Zoom 13 though - not quite big enough to read the print, without getting out of my chair... It goes all the way to z18, but just gives you a blank if you go somewhere it's not rendered. Blanks get rendered on demand, so go back when it's had a chance to render them. I haven't figured out quite how often it updates, but it's probably roughly weekly. Richard ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2752 - Release Date: 03/17/10 07:33:00 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?
On 17/03/2010 09:12, Peter Childs wrote: Fun more work, That will be a fun couple of days work adding routes for every South Eastern Train, and then I'll have to get on to the Medway buses too. Nice map shame about the lack of data guess we'll just have to add it. Presumably we can't crib from published bus-maps and timetables, as that would be breach of copyright? I guess it means riding every bus route from terminus to terminus? Hopefully they sell 'rover' tickets! -- Steve ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?
On 17 March 2010 15:21, Steve Doerr steve.do...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Presumably we can't crib from published bus-maps and timetables, as that would be breach of copyright? I guess it means riding every bus route from terminus to terminus? Hopefully they sell 'rover' tickets! All those floating bus stops give a pretty good indication of where buses go. I've found that some routes I use occasionally were easy to enter by using my memory and following the stops. There aren't many routes in my patch of south east London that really wiggle around. Best, Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?
On 17 March 2010 00:09, Mark Williams mark@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: All the ferries too! This beats several of the commercial maps, my car still refuses to believe in the Southampton-Cowes *fairy*! It only opens it's wings and flies when your car is sleeping. Yes, a lot of routes can be surveyed based on the bus stops. But it is one of those things that should only be done by local knowledge, as sometimes they go strange ways for unknown reasons (such as certain residents getting annoyed). I just noticed a problem with the render (although a tricky one to fix). Where two routes share the road, but one only goes one way, the arrows are not shown. Here http://www.öpnvkarte.de/?zoom=16lat=51.42521lon=-0.3781layers=BThttp://www.xn--pnvkarte-m4a.de/?zoom=16lat=51.42521lon=-0.3781layers=BTthe R70 comes from the East on Broad Lane and turns North to join the 111(going North/South). The R70 does a large loop (which is not shown when it is still with the 111), before getting back on Broad LAne in the West and crossing the 111 path to head back on the East section of Broad Lane. FWIW: Yesterday I updated part of the loop section where the R70 and 111 briefly separate. After The Avenue someone said the buses go left but they actually both go right. The 111 turns up Nightinggale Avenue, but the R70 goes to the end of Acacia Road, does a sharp left U turn, and passes 3 more stops than the 111. The Nightingale Road (only the 111 stops there) stop would probably confuse anyone without local knowledge and they might even wrongly move it around the corner of Hanworth Road (NaPTAN inaccuracy?). It's possible a driver was being naughty or got lost and went the way the route relation is mapped. I'll be able to add (or at least start) a few more London bus routes when I get my computer (and JOSM) working again. I'm not there to survey it, but I have enough local knowledge and know the buses too well. Oh, that also get's me thinking. What about routes that are occasionally extended? I wouldn't like the extension to show up with it being clear it is infrequent? Or should I just trust people to look up the timetables (or use a timetable OSM mash up serivce that is going to be created). -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?
Great idea - I've put together just such a visualisation, have a look at: http://gibin.geog.ucl.ac.uk/~ollie/lonelybuses/ At z12 it's generated on-demand so might be a bit slow in places. I've used 30m as the cut-off distance between the busstops and the centreline of any kind of highway. Ollie Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:06:22 -0700 From: Gregory nomoregra...@googlemail.com If there are potentially lots of areas, then I'm wondering if there is a way to visualise these unmapped places. Search for bus stops where no highway=* within some distance of them? Maybe the distance would be the NaPTAN accuracy plus a few metres. This would either make a good list, or the bus stops could be displayed as large red dots on the no-names layer. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?
Can a WMS tileserver.map be generated (from the source shp files)? This can be used as another option for the community to make use of the data. Thanks, Sam On 3/16/10, Oliver O'Brien m...@oliverobrien.co.uk wrote: Great idea - I've put together just such a visualisation, have a look at: http://gibin.geog.ucl.ac.uk/~ollie/lonelybuses/ At z12 it's generated on-demand so might be a bit slow in places. I've used 30m as the cut-off distance between the busstops and the centreline of any kind of highway. Ollie Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:06:22 -0700 From: Gregory nomoregra...@googlemail.com If there are potentially lots of areas, then I'm wondering if there is a way to visualise these unmapped places. Search for bus stops where no highway=* within some distance of them? Maybe the distance would be the NaPTAN accuracy plus a few metres. This would either make a good list, or the bus stops could be displayed as large red dots on the no-names layer. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb -- Twitter: @Acrosscanada Blog: http://Acrosscanadatrails.blogspot.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans Skype: samvekemans OpenStreetMap IRC: http://irc.openstreetmap.org @Acrosscanadatrails ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?
On 13 March 2010 17:25, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: I would certainly hope that any updates are not used to overwrite existing local edits. I have spent far too many hours checking and updating the data to have a newer version overwrite it. A smart merge would be more useful, I would write it if required. No planned updates will overwrite any contributed data. As too 'dumping in' the remaining county data I would prefer that it is handled locally where possible. The NaPTAN data is useful and good in parts but needs checking and improving too. We'd all prefer it if it'd be handled locally, but there just doesn't seem to be much interest in improving the data en-mass, merely in the piecewise way that most people have mapped up until now. I think too much data is imported just because it is available - I prefer imports to add value. NaPTAN can add value but that is best realised by someone local to the import managing it. I would argue that NaPTAN does add value in undermapped parts of the country - the vast majority of NaPTAN stops are correct. Cheers, Chris Roger Slevin wrote: Thomas If you want a refresh of the NaPTAN dataset, then just ask me and I will arrange for this be made available. I appreciate that this could be a two-edged sword it would update the data, but in the areas where work has already been done on the data from a year ago, it may over-write any local edits made to that data - or has this already been taken into account, so that new data would sit alongside existing data and would only be accepted if it is appropriate at each location? Cheers Roger -Original Message- From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Wood Sent: 13 March 2010 12:45 PM To: osm; OSM - Talk GB Subject: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest? Hello all, It's now been more than a year since we got permission to import the NaPTAN dataset, so far only 53 of the 143 counties that we have the data for have been imported. So, in short, is it time for the rest to be dumped in? Discussion please. Regards, Thomas ___ Talk-transit mailing list talk-tran...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list talk-tran...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list talk-tran...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?
On 16 March 2010 17:00, Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com wrote: We'd all prefer it if it'd be handled locally, but there just doesn't seem to be much interest in improving the data en-mass, merely in the piecewise way that most people have mapped up until now. I may be wrong about this, but I'm not aware that a NAPTAN clean-up has been particularly promoted in the way that the TIGER cleanups were (are?). I recall a tool developed for the west midlands showing the state of the imported data, but can that be used nationwide? The cycle map and regular chatter have seen coverage blossom. Obviously bus stops aren't as interesting to fellow OSM nutters as cycle routes; and the cycle map was an early mover and got onto the front page of the main web site. But can't we make a bit more of an effort to push this across the GB community? After cars and walking, public transport is the most used means of getting around ths country so I'd say it should be a fairly high priority to get that data right. Best wishes, Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?
On 16 March 2010 17:46, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: :-) I sallied forth on this issue at WhereCampEU - topics of how to improve the public transit data in OSM came up a surprising number of times on Saturday. Step One: Register a better domain name for people who can't remember how to type the double-dots in http://www.öpnvkarte.de/http://www.xn--pnvkarte-m4a.de/. Et voila, now we have http://openbusmap.org thanks to Shaun. Step Two: Have a (UK?) public transport hack-weekend. Peter Miller offered to sponsor this at said WhereCampEU, so that just needs organising. Step Three: Good editor support. Potlatch2 already supports things like NAPTAN cardinal compass directions. There's more to do on that front... That's a start, and IMHO doing what the cyclemap did (i.e. provide a compelling end-use) does as much as YAOSMIT (that's Yet Another OSM Inspection Tool). The tools have their place, but only for the most hard-core contributors. I see contributors as progressing through the following stages, where only a small proportion ever make it to the next stage: 1) Not interested or aware of the subject in question 2) Liking an end-use of the subject (e.g. opencyclemap.org, openbusmap.org ) 3) Fiddling with the data in places that's important to them 4) Getting interested in wider QA of the data using inspection tools I think we need to support 2 and 3 to get a much larger number of people involved in buses etc in the UK. +1 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?
Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net schrieb: I recall a tool developed for the west midlands showing the state of the imported data, but can that be used nationwide? I reckon you are refering to NOVAM (http://mappa-mercia.org/novam)? The tool is working nationwide. However, the data it shows has not been updated since February, because the update process NOVAM uses is currently broken. I do not have much spare time at the moment but I will try to fix this at some point (hopefully soon). The cycle map and regular chatter have seen coverage blossom. Obviously bus stops aren't as interesting to fellow OSM nutters as cycle routes; and the cycle map was an early mover and got onto the front page of the main web site. But can't we make a bit more of an effort to push this across the GB community? I have the feeling that one of the reasons for the relatively low interest in bus stops is that their use is quite limited without additional timetable information. Best, Christoph After cars and walking, public transport is the most used means of getting around ths country so I'd say it should be a fairly high priority to get that data right. Best wishes, Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?
2010/3/16 Christoph Böhme christ...@b3e.net Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net schrieb: I recall a tool developed for the west midlands showing the state of the imported data, but can that be used nationwide? I reckon you are refering to NOVAM (http://mappa-mercia.org/novam)? The tool is working nationwide. However, the data it shows has not been updated since February, because the update process NOVAM uses is currently broken. I do not have much spare time at the moment but I will try to fix this at some point (hopefully soon). Lovely, thanks for the link and best of luck with finding that time :-) The cycle map and regular chatter have seen coverage blossom. Obviously bus stops aren't as interesting to fellow OSM nutters as cycle routes; and the cycle map was an early mover and got onto the front page of the main web site. But can't we make a bit more of an effort to push this across the GB community? I have the feeling that one of the reasons for the relatively low interest in bus stops is that their use is quite limited without additional timetable information. I gave a talk on OSM to my local Tenants Association federation for Southwark (a municipal area in London). They absolutely loved the public transport map (www.öpnvkarte.de http://www.xn--pnvkarte-m4a.de) which has the bus stops along with bus/train/tube/DLR/tram routes. It's very similar to the cycle map, only most OSM mappers cycle everywhere whilst few find the public transport particularly useful. So limited to us, perhaps. Later this year if I get some time and I'm not elected in the local elections I intend to spend some more time with tenants helping them to put the data in since they find it handy. Best, Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest? (Thomas Wood
Hi, Not only is the NaPTAN data useful for planning journeys, but I've also found it useful when mapping - if an area of the map contains bus stops but no roads then you know it's worth going there for a bike ride! Regards Nick (Tallguy) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
