Re: [Talk-GB] Bottle Kilns

[Russ Phillips]

>
> From: Mark Goodge <m...@good-stuff.co.uk>
> To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 20:48:18 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Bottle Kilns
>
>
> On 06/04/2018 18:58, Brian Prangle wrote:
>
>> Hi Russ
>>
>> If any are listed buildings it would be good to tag them
>>
>> heritage=2
>> heritage_operator=Historic England
>> listed_status =  Grade I  Grade II* or Grade II as appropriate
>>
>
> All surviving bottle kilns in Stoke-on-Trent are listed. But sometimes
> they are listed as part of the factory to which they are attached, rather
> than individually. If you're trying to search for them, on the British
> Listed Buildings site or elsewhere, it's worth noting that, in the
> Potteries, they're generally referred to as bottle ovens in the listings
> rather than kilns.
>

Thanks both. I'll use the listed buildings tags.

Russ
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Re: [Talk-GB] Bottle Kilns

[Mark Goodge]

On 06/04/2018 18:58, Brian Prangle wrote:

Hi Russ

If any are listed buildings it would be good to tag them

heritage=2
heritage_operator=Historic England
listed_status =  Grade I  Grade II* or Grade II as appropriate


All surviving bottle kilns in Stoke-on-Trent are listed. But sometimes 
they are listed as part of the factory to which they are attached, 
rather than individually. If you're trying to search for them, on the 
British Listed Buildings site or elsewhere, it's worth noting that, in 
the Potteries, they're generally referred to as bottle ovens in the 
listings rather than kilns.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Bottle Kilns

[Brian Prangle]

Hi Russ

If any are listed buildings it would be good to tag them

heritage=2
heritage_operator=Historic England
listed_status =  Grade I  Grade II* or Grade II as appropriate

A good guide to listing status is
https://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/england/stoke-on-trent

Regards

Brian

On 6 April 2018 at 07:38, Russ Phillips 
wrote:

> Right, I'm now thinking I'll tag as:
>
> building=bottle_kiln
> kiln=pottery
> disused:man_made=kiln
> former_product=pottery
> historic=kiln
>
> and add tourism=museum where appropriate.
>
> Ideally
> I'd have the building as a way.
> Then the kiln as a node with the product.
> This allows the building to remain 'intact' while the kiln could go
> disused to abandoned depending on how bad it is.
> I note that the kiln requires more than the building, for example heat
> proofing, venting.
>
> Most of the bottle kilns in Stoke-on-Trent are stand-alone brick
> structures, and the whole building is the kiln. They were filled with
> pottery, the doorway was bricked up, and fires were lit at the bottom.
>
> However, this brings up a related point. Some bottle kilns are inside
> another building (eg the one at Moorcroft: https://www.flickr.
> com/photos/83551695@N00/4794476050/) How would I map those? I'm guessing
> I'd have two ways - one for the outer building, and one for the bottle
> kiln, with a relation to tie them together. If so, what type of relation
> should I use?
>
> Thanks for all the help and advice.
>
> Russ
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Bottle Kilns

[Warin]

There are more building=industrial so that may get some rendering 
eventually.

And a kiln/bottle making is an industry so it does fit.


On 06/04/18 16:40, Russ Phillips wrote:

Forgot to add:

Elsewhere, someone suggested using kiln=bottle_kiln and 
building=industrial instead of building=bottle_kiln. Any thoughts?


Russ


On 6 April 2018 at 07:38, Russ Phillips 
> wrote:


Right, I'm now thinking I'll tag as:

building=bottle_kiln
kiln=pottery
disused:man_made=kiln
former_product=pottery
historic=kiln

and add tourism=museum where appropriate.

Ideally
I'd have the building as a way.
Then the kiln as a node with the product.
This allows the building to remain 'intact' while the kiln
could go disused to abandoned depending on how bad it is.
I note that the kiln requires more than the building, for
example heat proofing, venting.

Most of the bottle kilns in Stoke-on-Trent are stand-alone brick
structures, and the whole building is the kiln. They were filled
with pottery, the doorway was bricked up, and fires were lit at
the bottom.

However, this brings up a related point. Some bottle kilns are
inside another building (eg the one at Moorcroft:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/83551695@N00/4794476050/
) How
would I map those? I'm guessing I'd have two ways - one for the
outer building, and one for the bottle kiln, with a relation to
tie them together. If so, what type of relation should I use?

Thanks for all the help and advice.

Russ





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Re: [Talk-GB] Bottle Kilns

[Russ Phillips]

Forgot to add:

Elsewhere, someone suggested using kiln=bottle_kiln and building=industrial
instead of building=bottle_kiln. Any thoughts?

Russ


On 6 April 2018 at 07:38, Russ Phillips 
wrote:

> Right, I'm now thinking I'll tag as:
>
> building=bottle_kiln
> kiln=pottery
> disused:man_made=kiln
> former_product=pottery
> historic=kiln
>
> and add tourism=museum where appropriate.
>
> Ideally
> I'd have the building as a way.
> Then the kiln as a node with the product.
> This allows the building to remain 'intact' while the kiln could go
> disused to abandoned depending on how bad it is.
> I note that the kiln requires more than the building, for example heat
> proofing, venting.
>
> Most of the bottle kilns in Stoke-on-Trent are stand-alone brick
> structures, and the whole building is the kiln. They were filled with
> pottery, the doorway was bricked up, and fires were lit at the bottom.
>
> However, this brings up a related point. Some bottle kilns are inside
> another building (eg the one at Moorcroft: https://www.flickr.
> com/photos/83551695@N00/4794476050/) How would I map those? I'm guessing
> I'd have two ways - one for the outer building, and one for the bottle
> kiln, with a relation to tie them together. If so, what type of relation
> should I use?
>
> Thanks for all the help and advice.
>
> Russ
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Bottle Kilns

[Russ Phillips]

Right, I'm now thinking I'll tag as:

building=bottle_kiln
kiln=pottery
disused:man_made=kiln
former_product=pottery
historic=kiln

and add tourism=museum where appropriate.

Ideally
I'd have the building as a way.
Then the kiln as a node with the product.
This allows the building to remain 'intact' while the kiln could go disused
to abandoned depending on how bad it is.
I note that the kiln requires more than the building, for example heat
proofing, venting.

Most of the bottle kilns in Stoke-on-Trent are stand-alone brick
structures, and the whole building is the kiln. They were filled with
pottery, the doorway was bricked up, and fires were lit at the bottom.

However, this brings up a related point. Some bottle kilns are inside
another building (eg the one at Moorcroft:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/83551695@N00/4794476050/) How would I map
those? I'm guessing I'd have two ways - one for the outer building, and one
for the bottle kiln, with a relation to tie them together. If so, what type
of relation should I use?

Thanks for all the help and advice.

Russ
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Re: [Talk-GB] Bottle Kilns

[Warin]

On 06/04/18 03:04, Adam Snape wrote:

Hi,

How about disused as a lifecycle prefix rather than a simple tag eg. 
disused:man_made=kiln

+1
I don't think much of disued=yes
* building=industrial
* kiln=bottle_kiln
* man_made=kiln
* product=pottery
* disused=yes
* historic=building

Which bit is disused? The building? Or the kiln? Both?

* building=industrial
* kiln=bottle_kiln
* disused:man_made=kiln
* product=pottery
* historic=building
Is specific ...

Ideally
I'd have the building as a way.
Then the kiln as a node with the product.
This allows the building to remain 'intact' while the kiln could go 
disused to abandoned depending on how bad it is.
I note that the kiln requires more than the building, for example heat 
proofing, venting.



tourism=museum

Alternatively, how about using the historic tag to differentiate old 
kilns from modern ones eg.

historic=kiln
tourism=museum

Fails to identify the state of decay, which may not be a bad thing.


Kind regards,

Adam


On Thu, 5 Apr 2018, 16:00 Paul Berry, > wrote:


> Do we have precedence for handling such cases, in other types of
specialist buildings?

Not sure, but I'm now thinking about other kiln-like structures
close to my neck of the woods. Feel free to update the tagging on
these accordingly:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catcliffe_Glass_Cone
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/155737916

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cementation_furnace,_Sheffield
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/107004890

Regards,
/Paul/

On 5 April 2018 at 15:45, Andy Mabbett > wrote:

On 5 April 2018 at 13:18, Russ Phillips
> wrote:

> I'm intending to map the bottle kilns in Stoke on Trent.

Don't forget that there are some in Stourbridge, too.

> Based on feedback from a few people, I'm planning to use the
following tags,
> although I'm still open to suggestions.

the rest look OK, but Ilm not sure about:

> * disused=yes

Since, though disused as kilns, they tend to be used for something
else (shop, museum, etc.).

Do we have precedence for handling such cases, in other types of
specialist buildings?

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Bottle Kilns

[Adam Snape]

Hi,

How about disused as a lifecycle prefix rather than a simple tag eg.
disused:man_made=kiln
tourism=museum

Alternatively, how about using the historic tag to differentiate old kilns
from modern ones eg.
historic=kiln
tourism=museum

Kind regards,

Adam


On Thu, 5 Apr 2018, 16:00 Paul Berry,  wrote:

> > Do we have precedence for handling such cases, in other types of
> specialist buildings?
>
> Not sure, but I'm now thinking about other kiln-like structures close to
> my neck of the woods. Feel free to update the tagging on these accordingly:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catcliffe_Glass_Cone
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/155737916
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cementation_furnace,_Sheffield
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/107004890
>
> Regards,
> *Paul*
>
> On 5 April 2018 at 15:45, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
>
>> On 5 April 2018 at 13:18, Russ Phillips 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I'm intending to map the bottle kilns in Stoke on Trent.
>>
>> Don't forget that there are some in Stourbridge, too.
>>
>> > Based on feedback from a few people, I'm planning to use the following
>> tags,
>> > although I'm still open to suggestions.
>>
>> the rest look OK, but Ilm not sure about:
>>
>> > * disused=yes
>>
>> Since, though disused as kilns, they tend to be used for something
>> else (shop, museum, etc.).
>>
>> Do we have precedence for handling such cases, in other types of
>> specialist buildings?
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Bottle Kilns

[Paul Berry]

> Do we have precedence for handling such cases, in other types of
specialist buildings?

Not sure, but I'm now thinking about other kiln-like structures close to my
neck of the woods. Feel free to update the tagging on these accordingly:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catcliffe_Glass_Cone
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/155737916

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cementation_furnace,_Sheffield
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/107004890

Regards,
*Paul*

On 5 April 2018 at 15:45, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> On 5 April 2018 at 13:18, Russ Phillips 
> wrote:
>
> > I'm intending to map the bottle kilns in Stoke on Trent.
>
> Don't forget that there are some in Stourbridge, too.
>
> > Based on feedback from a few people, I'm planning to use the following
> tags,
> > although I'm still open to suggestions.
>
> the rest look OK, but Ilm not sure about:
>
> > * disused=yes
>
> Since, though disused as kilns, they tend to be used for something
> else (shop, museum, etc.).
>
> Do we have precedence for handling such cases, in other types of
> specialist buildings?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Bottle Kilns

[Andy Mabbett]

On 5 April 2018 at 13:18, Russ Phillips  wrote:

> I'm intending to map the bottle kilns in Stoke on Trent.

Don't forget that there are some in Stourbridge, too.

> Based on feedback from a few people, I'm planning to use the following tags,
> although I'm still open to suggestions.

the rest look OK, but Ilm not sure about:

> * disused=yes

Since, though disused as kilns, they tend to be used for something
else (shop, museum, etc.).

Do we have precedence for handling such cases, in other types of
specialist buildings?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Bottle Kilns

[SK53]

Looks fine to me, and the tag is in extensive usage.

This is roughly the tagging we have used for the disused one at West
Hallam:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=potlatch2#map=18/52.97438/-1.35346
.

My only qualm is about disused=yes. I presume this is very much the default
for bottle kilns (and most lime kilns in the UK), but it then creates the
usual problem for other types of kilns which are in use, such as the
charcoal kiln shown on the wikipage. I also perhaps change the product tag
to something like former_product just to make it less easy to accidentally
query historical kilns when looking for ones in use.

As an aside there are quite a number of historically interesting lime kilns
distributed around the coast - County Antrim, Pembrokeshire (Solva,
Porthgain - nice pub too, Penmon, Anglesey. There are also kilns in
unexpected places inland - there are several in Glen Brerachan E of
Pitlochry (see e.g., Canmore
) because there is a thin
exposure of Loch Tay Limestone there.

Jerry

On 5 April 2018 at 13:18, Russ Phillips 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm intending to map the bottle kilns in Stoke on Trent. For those that
> don't know, they're an important part of the area's industrial heritage
> (there were several thousand of them at the height of the pottery
> industry). There are 47 now, and just under half are currently mapped.
>
> Based on feedback from a few people, I'm planning to use the following
> tags, although I'm still open to suggestions.
>
> * building=industrial
> * kiln=bottle_kiln
> * man_made=kiln
> * product=pottery
> * disused=yes
> * historic=building
>
> I'm planning to update the tags of any already-mapped kilns, and add any
> that aren't already mapped.
>
> Is it worth adding something to the wiki about this? There doesn't appear
> to be a Key:kiln page, so would it be better to create one, or to add the
> information to the Proposed_features/kiln
>  page?
>
> Russ
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Bottle Kilns

[Andy Townsend]

On 05/04/2018 13:18, Russ Phillips wrote:
I'm intending to map the bottle kilns in Stoke on Trent. For those 
that don't know, they're an important part of the area's industrial 
heritage (there were several thousand of them at the height of the 
pottery industry). There are 47 now, and just under half are currently 
mapped.




Great idea - if someone can knock up an icon I'll add it to 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html (easiest way - pick an 
existing icon from 
https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/openstreetmap-carto-AJT/tree/master/symbols 
and edit it with something like Gimp).


Best Regards,
Andy


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[Talk-GB] Bottle Kilns

[Russ Phillips]

Hi,

I'm intending to map the bottle kilns in Stoke on Trent. For those that
don't know, they're an important part of the area's industrial heritage
(there were several thousand of them at the height of the pottery
industry). There are 47 now, and just under half are currently mapped.

Based on feedback from a few people, I'm planning to use the following
tags, although I'm still open to suggestions.

* building=industrial
* kiln=bottle_kiln
* man_made=kiln
* product=pottery
* disused=yes
* historic=building

I'm planning to update the tags of any already-mapped kilns, and add any
that aren't already mapped.

Is it worth adding something to the wiki about this? There doesn't appear
to be a Key:kiln page, so would it be better to create one, or to add the
information to the Proposed_features/kiln
 page?

Russ
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