Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

[Andrew Hain]

My experience has been that although a missing FHRS entry is a useful warning 
of what to resurvey, there are too many false positives to remove businesses 
without checking on the ground.

--
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From: Gregrs <gre...@fastmail.co.uk>
Sent: 21 January 2018 21:25:07
To: Rob Nickerson
Cc: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

Hi Rob,

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 03:58:37PM +, Rob Nickerson wrote:

>I don't think it has been mentioned, but having the link to FHRS is one
>way of keeping on top of changes in places where we have fewer active
>mappers. That is, by monitoring for changes in FHRS we can identify
>closures, takeovers, new cafes etc (assuming a detectable change in the
>source data). In a way this is similar to the ref:navads tag that was
>added to Shell petrol station data -> it is now a much simpler task of
>finding out what has changed by comparing to third party data thus
>allowing mappers to hone in on relevant areas.
>
>If anyone wants to have a go at building something that would be
>amazing. Similarly we still have the idea of visualising a "crap data"
>map floating around (e.g. map of Lloyds TSB, map of Total petrol
>stations, BHS etc..).

FHRS is certainly a good way to keep on top of changes, and in fact you
can already use my FHRS/OSM comparison tool
[https://gregrs.dev.openstreetmap.org/fhrs/] to view fhrs:id tags that
don't currently match an establishment in the FHRS database, such as an
establishment that has closed down. You can look out for red blobs on
the map (which may also be matched OSM entities with mismatched/missing
postcodes) or examine the table with the heading 'Mismatched fhrs:id
tags'.

Hope it's useful.

Thanks,
Greg

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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

[Gregrs]

Hi Rob,

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 03:58:37PM +, Rob Nickerson wrote:

I don't think it has been mentioned, but having the link to FHRS is one 
way of keeping on top of changes in places where we have fewer active 
mappers. That is, by monitoring for changes in FHRS we can identify 
closures, takeovers, new cafes etc (assuming a detectable change in the 
source data). In a way this is similar to the ref:navads tag that was 
added to Shell petrol station data -> it is now a much simpler task of 
finding out what has changed by comparing to third party data thus 
allowing mappers to hone in on relevant areas.


If anyone wants to have a go at building something that would be 
amazing. Similarly we still have the idea of visualising a "crap data" 
map floating around (e.g. map of Lloyds TSB, map of Total petrol 
stations, BHS etc..). 


FHRS is certainly a good way to keep on top of changes, and in fact you 
can already use my FHRS/OSM comparison tool 
[https://gregrs.dev.openstreetmap.org/fhrs/] to view fhrs:id tags that 
don't currently match an establishment in the FHRS database, such as an 
establishment that has closed down. You can look out for red blobs on 
the map (which may also be matched OSM entities with mismatched/missing 
postcodes) or examine the table with the heading 'Mismatched fhrs:id 
tags'.


Hope it's useful.

Thanks,
Greg

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http://gregrs.dev.openstreetmap.org
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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

[Gregrs]

Hi all,

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 01:12:07PM +, Mark Goodge wrote:

If there has been a change of ownership, then yes, the old FHRS rating 
doesn't carry over to the new one. So it would need to be deleted from 
OSM as well.


Whilst it's great to include the fhrs:id for an establishment and 
perhaps the fhrs:authority, it's generally not considered useful to 
store ephemeral data such as the FHRS rating in OSM as this can change 
regularly and it's fairly simple to fetch this for a particular 
establishment using the FHRS API given the fhrs:id.


Thanks,
Greg

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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

[Andrew Black]

Thanks everyone
The pub I was looking at has a FHRS reference under its new name as
"awaiting inspection". This is useful confirmation that its old inspection
is not valid.


On 21 January 2018 at 15:58, Rob Nickerson 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I don't think it has been mentioned, but having the link to FHRS is one
> way of keeping on top of changes in places where we have fewer active
> mappers. That is, by monitoring for changes in FHRS we can identify
> closures, takeovers, new cafes etc (assuming a detectable change in the
> source data). In a way this is similar to the ref:navads tag that was added
> to Shell petrol station data -> it is now a much simpler task of finding
> out what has changed by comparing to third party data thus allowing mappers
> to hone in on relevant areas.
>
> If anyone wants to have a go at building something that would be amazing.
> Similarly we still have the idea of visualising a "crap data" map floating
> around (e.g. map of Lloyds TSB, map of Total petrol stations, BHS etc..).
>
> *Rob*
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi,

I don't think it has been mentioned, but having the link to FHRS is one way
of keeping on top of changes in places where we have fewer active mappers.
That is, by monitoring for changes in FHRS we can identify closures,
takeovers, new cafes etc (assuming a detectable change in the source data).
In a way this is similar to the ref:navads tag that was added to Shell
petrol station data -> it is now a much simpler task of finding out what
has changed by comparing to third party data thus allowing mappers to hone
in on relevant areas.

If anyone wants to have a go at building something that would be amazing.
Similarly we still have the idea of visualising a "crap data" map floating
around (e.g. map of Lloyds TSB, map of Total petrol stations, BHS etc..).

*Rob*
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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

[Mark Goodge]

On 20/01/2018 22:39, Andrew Black wrote:
If a pub has been taken over by a chain (and changed name), should one 
delete FHRS info.

My gut feeling is yes but. ...


If there has been a change of ownership, then yes, the old FHRS rating 
doesn't carry over to the new one. So it would need to be deleted from 
OSM as well. If it's merely a change of trading name, though, then it 
does remain applicable, and can be left on the data too. You'd need 
local knowledge to tell the difference, in most cases.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

[Dan S]

2018-01-21 12:14 GMT+00:00 Dave F :
>
> On 21/01/2018 12:09, Philip Barnes wrote:
>
> rarely accepted by the locals,...
>
>
> loc_name

IMHO keeping one old_name is good practice, in particular to allow a
little lag time for people who might search OSM data for "the hare and
hounds" not yet knowing it's been changed to something else. No need
to be very formal about it, and no need to keep more than one old name
(in most cases).

(NB "old_name" is very common in tags, "old:name" is not)

Cheers
Dan

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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

[Dave F]

On 21/01/2018 12:09, Philip Barnes wrote:

rarely accepted by the locals,...


loc_name

DaveF
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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

[Philip Barnes]

On Sun, 2018-01-21 at 00:39 +, Dave F wrote:
> Bearing in mind OSM isn't a historical database, how far back
> should
> we go with old:? 

These things are worth keeping, trendy names dreamed up by marketing
types are rarely accepted by the locals, they will go on referring to a
pub by its proper name.

Pubs have been landmarks for generations and one day someone with a
sense of place, and history, will change it back.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

[Gregrs]

Hi all,

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 12:36:34AM +, Dave F wrote:

I've been prefixing them with disused: as the fhrs:id will be probably 
be updated after a new review. I found keeping the old one was useful 
as a checking reference.


Prefixing with disused, old or not could be useful. (I haven't checked 
which is in more frequent use.) EdLoach added an issue for the FHRS/OSM 
comparison tool that suggests the use of not:fhrs:id. Whilst the 
functionality he describes isn't currently supported by the tool, I will 
try to get round to adding it at some point: see 
https://github.com/gregrs-uk/python-fhrs-osm/issues/50


I've also compiled a list of disused: objects to send to my LA's 
hygiene team in an attempt to get them to update their database. Not 
much luck with that.


If you're on Twitter, it might be worth tweeting @drsiant (Head of 
Information Management at FSA) as she seems keen for this sort of 
exchange of information.


I would also agree with Colin that you should definitely leave the 
address data in place. Also the source:addr=FHRS Open Data should be 
left in place if present and probably added if not present.


Thanks,
Greg

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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

[Dave F]

Bearing in mind OSM isn't a historical database, how far back should we 
go with old:?


DaveF

On 20/01/2018 23:18, Warin wrote:

On 21-Jan-18 09:46 AM, Colin Spiller wrote:

I have similar near here.
Keep the address at least! Remove the fhrs:I'd seems sensible.


old:name would seam sensible too.



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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

[Dave F]

Has it been removed from your local authority's list?

I've been prefixing them with disused: as the fhrs:id will be probably 
be updated after a new review. I found keeping the old one was useful as 
a checking reference.
I've also compiled a list of disused: objects to send to my LA's hygiene 
team in an attempt to get them to update their database. Not much luck 
with that.


On 20/01/2018 22:39, Andrew Black wrote:
If a pub has been taken over by a chain (and changed name), should one 
delete FHRS info.

My gut feeling is yes but. ...



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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

[Warin]

On 21-Jan-18 09:46 AM, Colin Spiller wrote:

I have similar near here.
Keep the address at least! Remove the fhrs:I'd seems sensible.


old:name would seam sensible too.


Colin

Sent from TypeApp 
On 20 Jan 2018, at 22:42, Andrew Black > wrote:


If a pub has been taken over by a chain (and changed name), should
one delete FHRS info.
My gut feeling is yes but. ...



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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

[Colin Spiller]

I have similar near here.
Keep the address at least! Remove the fhrs:I'd seems sensible.
Colin

⁣Sent from TypeApp ​

On 20 Jan 2018, 22:42, at 22:42, Andrew Black  
wrote:
>If a pub has been taken over by a chain (and changed name), should one
>delete FHRS info.
>My gut feeling is yes but. ...
>
>
>
>
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[Talk-GB] FHRS info when pub has been taken over.

[Andrew Black]

If a pub has been taken over by a chain (and changed name), should one
delete FHRS info.
My gut feeling is yes but. ...
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