Re: [Talk-GB] FWD: Re: House number ranges that are only odd or even

[Donald Noble]

Just to add my opinion on this, I would also agree with Jerry that
addr:interpolation on a node/building with an addr:housenumber=1-5 would
seem an obvious and logical way.

To reply to Mateusz, I think the situation in the UK may be different, as
they note. There are several addresses I am aware of (at least in Scotland)
where multiple buildings have been joined together into one (for example
shops), and so these have one entrance and one address, but this spans a
range of numbers, eg the postal address could be 5-9 High Street, but there
are even numbers on the other side of the street. It would be incorrect to
use multiple nodes in this instance, as there is no such address as 7 High
Street.

Cheers, Donald

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 at 22:03, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB <
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> Dec 10, 2020, 21:51 by sk53@gmail.com:
>
> However, I would regard the Dutch
>  &
> Polish communities approach of adding individual
> nodes for each address in the building irrespective of the actual address
> position outline
> as incorrect mapping in the UK. In both cases, and probably also in
> Denmark ,
> this is most
> likely because addresses have been imported from a national database and
> this allows
> incremental updates from the same source. The problem with this is that it
> prevents classic
> OSM iterative refinement, such as accurate mapping for indoor usage, for
> instance to enable
> guidance for blind people.
>
> At least in Poland separate nodes for addresses are preferred as this:
>
> - more accurate and allows to specify where given address actually is
> - for example after mapping entrances, you can be guided to a correct one
> - I am confused why it prevents
> "OSM iterative refinement, such as accurate mapping for indoor usage"
> (maybe in UK addresses are assigned differently than in Poland)
> - maybe it is related to fact that I am unaware of "address position
> outline"
> existing in Poland - address is de facto assigned to building/plot/entrance
> and in rare cases to complex objects such as a hospital or group of
> entrances
> - it is common to have on street corner address from two streets in one
> building
> (see
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.07413=19.93361#map=19/50.07413/19.93361
> and three nearby buildings), mapping this as an interpolation would not
> work
> (and least I think so)
> - and yes, is easier to map and import
>
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>


-- 
Donald Noble
http://drnoble.co.uk - http://flickr.com/photos/drnoble
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Re: [Talk-GB] FWD: Re: House number ranges that are only odd or even

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB]

Dec 10, 2020, 21:51 by sk53@gmail.com:

> However, I would regard > the Dutch 
> >  & Polish 
> communities approach of adding individual
> nodes for each address in the building irrespective of the actual address 
> position outline
> as incorrect mapping in the UK. In both cases, and probably > also in Denmark 
> > , this is 
> most
> likely because addresses have been imported from a national database and this 
> allows
> incremental updates from the same source. The problem with this is that it 
> prevents classic
> OSM iterative refinement, such as accurate mapping for indoor usage, for 
> instance to enable
> guidance for blind people. 
>
At least in Poland separate nodes for addresses are preferred as this:

- more accurate and allows to specify where given address actually is
- for example after mapping entrances, you can be guided to a correct one
- I am confused why it prevents 
"OSM iterative refinement, such as accurate mapping for indoor usage"
(maybe in UK addresses are assigned differently than in Poland)
- maybe it is related to fact that I am unaware of "address position outline"
existing in Poland - address is de facto assigned to building/plot/entrance
and in rare cases to complex objects such as a hospital or group of entrances
- it is common to have on street corner address from two streets in one building
(see 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.07413=19.93361#map=19/50.07413/19.93361
and three nearby buildings), mapping this as an interpolation would not work
(and least I think so)
- and yes, is easier to map and import

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Re: [Talk-GB] FWD: Re: House number ranges that are only odd or even

[SK53]

addr:interpolation used on single buildings has certainly been our standard
practice in the East Midlands for 9 or 10 years now. It's now often used in
conjunction with addr:flats or addr:unit, but also with addr:housenumber,
which I think was the first usage. It was obvious early on that multiple
addresses in one building needed to be distinguished from buildings with a
single address formed from multiple housenumbers (17-21 Xxxx Road).
addr:interpolation not only fuflils that role, but also allows the actual
number of addresses to be notated.

Extensive parts of St Anns, an inner city suburb of Nottingham redeveloped
in the late 1970s are precisely like this, with blocks containing flats
usually 6-7 units of 3 flats (one on the ground floor & 2 spanning 2 floors
above). This works fine, is understandable by mappers and relatively easy
to parse for data consumers. It's use arose from the circumstances of
mapping every address in a reasonably wide area. I think it's still true to
say that only a few places in Britain have extensive address mapping (& not
hugely different from this map
 I created back in
2014).

Addressing elsewhere in Europe is likely to be different from the UK, and I
see little value in asking people unfamiliar with the nitty gritty of
capturing UK addresses for their opinions on the best approach. The
current wiki
page 
states that there is no consensus on the matter. In the same manner I will
leave it to Spaniards to worry about how to map floor and door (common
address components there, although surprisingly widely used
 on OSM) and
inhabitants of former parts of the Austro-Hungarian empire to worry
about conscription
numbers 
(context from German wikipedia
).
However, I would regard the Dutch
 & Polish
communities approach of adding individual nodes for each address in the
building irrespective of the actual address position outline as incorrect
mapping in the UK. In both cases, and probably also in Denmark
, this is
most likely because addresses have been imported from a national database
and this allows incremental updates from the same source. The problem with
this is that it prevents classic OSM iterative refinement, such as accurate
mapping for indoor usage, for instance to enable guidance for blind people.

tl;dr: addr:interpolation on single buildings works fine, has been in use
in the UK for about 10 year; there's significant variation in address
mapping between communities.

Jerry

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 at 19:15, Dan S  wrote:

> That JOSM rendering is just a limitation in JOSM's rendering - I'd
> imagine it was unplanned.
>
> I'd be happy to see that second solution (i.e. make clear the
> interpretation of the tag, for closed ways). I don't necessarily think
> it needs a proposal/vote but I'd be happy to see it happen!
>
> Best
> Dan
>
>
> Op do 10 dec. 2020 om 18:37 schreef ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB
> :
> >
> >
> > Date: 10 Dec 2020, 18:34
> > From: ipswichmap...@tutanota.com
> > To: mattatt...@gmail.com
> > Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] House number ranges that are only odd or even
> >
> > This issue also came to my mind. addr:interpolation on a building
> doesn't seem appropriate. JOSM, for example, renders it as a dotted line
> around the edge of the building (as if that is the addr:interpolation
> way).  Clearly then, addr:interpolation isn't meant for buildings.
> >
> > Currently, I do 1;3;5;7;9 (here is an example of this:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/222193468/history [old versions of this
> building have that tagging scheme])
> >
> > Probably, a proposal needs to be created to either create a new tag or
> change addr:interpolation so that its meaning is different on closed and
> open ways.
> >
> > I think the latter solution is better, as people probably already tag
> buildings with an addr:interpolation.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > IpswichMapper
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > 10 Dec 2020, 15:37 by mattatt...@gmail.com:
> >
> > Is there a way when specifying a range for addr:housenumber to indicate
> it's only for even or odd numbers?
> >
> > When walking around my local area I have come across some blocks that
> will have a sign indicating for example house numbers 1 to 21 odd only.
> Similarly when there is just one building drawn for a whole street of
> terrace houses the number range will only be or odd even depending on the
> side of the road.
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-GB mailing list
> > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
> 

Re: [Talk-GB] FWD: Re: House number ranges that are only odd or even

[Dan S]

That JOSM rendering is just a limitation in JOSM's rendering - I'd
imagine it was unplanned.

I'd be happy to see that second solution (i.e. make clear the
interpretation of the tag, for closed ways). I don't necessarily think
it needs a proposal/vote but I'd be happy to see it happen!

Best
Dan


Op do 10 dec. 2020 om 18:37 schreef ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB
:
>
>
> Date: 10 Dec 2020, 18:34
> From: ipswichmap...@tutanota.com
> To: mattatt...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] House number ranges that are only odd or even
>
> This issue also came to my mind. addr:interpolation on a building doesn't 
> seem appropriate. JOSM, for example, renders it as a dotted line around the 
> edge of the building (as if that is the addr:interpolation way).  Clearly 
> then, addr:interpolation isn't meant for buildings.
>
> Currently, I do 1;3;5;7;9 (here is an example of this: 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/222193468/history [old versions of this 
> building have that tagging scheme])
>
> Probably, a proposal needs to be created to either create a new tag or change 
> addr:interpolation so that its meaning is different on closed and open ways.
>
> I think the latter solution is better, as people probably already tag 
> buildings with an addr:interpolation.
>
> Thanks,
> IpswichMapper
>
> --
>
>
> 10 Dec 2020, 15:37 by mattatt...@gmail.com:
>
> Is there a way when specifying a range for addr:housenumber to indicate it's 
> only for even or odd numbers?
>
> When walking around my local area I have come across some blocks that will 
> have a sign indicating for example house numbers 1 to 21 odd only. Similarly 
> when there is just one building drawn for a whole street of terrace houses 
> the number range will only be or odd even depending on the side of the road.
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

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[Talk-GB] FWD: Re: House number ranges that are only odd or even

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

Date: 10 Dec 2020, 18:34
From: ipswichmap...@tutanota.com
To: mattatt...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] House number ranges that are only odd or even


> This issue also came to my mind. addr:interpolation on a building doesn't 
> seem appropriate. JOSM, for example, renders it as a dotted line around the 
> edge of the building (as if that is the addr:interpolation way).  Clearly 
> then, addr:interpolation isn't meant for buildings.
>
> Currently, I do 1;3;5;7;9 (here is an example of this: > 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/222193468/history>  [old versions of this 
> building have that tagging scheme])
>
> Probably, a proposal needs to be created to either create a new tag or change 
> addr:interpolation so that its meaning is different on closed and open ways.
>
> I think the latter solution is better, as people probably already tag 
> buildings with an addr:interpolation.
>
> Thanks,
> IpswichMapper
>
> -- 
>
>
> 10 Dec 2020, 15:37 by mattatt...@gmail.com:
>
>> Is there a way when specifying a range for addr:housenumber to indicate it's 
>> only for even or odd numbers?
>>
>> When walking around my local area I have come across some blocks that will 
>> have a sign indicating for example house numbers 1 to 21 odd only. Similarly 
>> when there is just one building drawn for a whole street of terrace houses 
>> the number range will only be or odd even depending on the side of the road.
>>
>
>

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