Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
For me, the convincing argument is not ease of querying; the convincing argument is essentially namespacing. "uprn" and "usrn" are rather generic initialisms, and I don't see any useful reason for our uk/gb project to claim the "meaning" of ref:uprn or ref:usrn within OSM's tag namespace. I notice that "ref:usrn" has been used a lot - but in fact primarily it came three years ago during a tree import in Birmingham. So even though it's been used a lot, it's largely confined to one user/project and I wouldn't consider it widespread. Best Dan Op za 11 apr. 2020 om 02:06 schreef Dave F via Talk-GB : > > Why country codes? OSM is geospatially aware. > > On 09/04/2020 14:31, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote: > > On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 14:26, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) > > wrote: > >> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 09:21, Tony OSM wrote: > >>> If the data is to be in the public domain the next step has to be tagging. > >>> Do we need country specific tags for these two pieces of data? > >>> What should they be? > > [snip] > >> So I'd propose that we use either ref:uprn and ref:usrn, or > >> ref:UK:uprn and ref:UK:usrn. What does everyone else think? > > Oops. If we were to use the ISO Alpha-2 country codes, it should of > > course be GB rather then UK. So that would make the keys ref:GB:uprn > > and ref:GB:usrn . > > > > Robert. > > > > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
Why country codes? OSM is geospatially aware. On 09/04/2020 14:31, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote: On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 14:26, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote: On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 09:21, Tony OSM wrote: If the data is to be in the public domain the next step has to be tagging. Do we need country specific tags for these two pieces of data? What should they be? [snip] So I'd propose that we use either ref:uprn and ref:usrn, or ref:UK:uprn and ref:UK:usrn. What does everyone else think? Oops. If we were to use the ISO Alpha-2 country codes, it should of course be GB rather then UK. So that would make the keys ref:GB:uprn and ref:GB:usrn . Robert. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On 10/04/2020 17:37, Brian Prangle wrote: Can I ask two basic daft questions? What use are these in OSM if we only pick at them instead of importing the lot ( which is highly unlikely)? UPRNs will be useful on any mapped building or area, as it will help link OSM data to other datasets in a consistent way. Is it possible to derive street names from USRN in a way that is licence compatible? That depends on what's in the dataset that eventually gets released as open data. I would expect that the canonical name of the street would be part of the data, though. If so, then yes, we can use it. One of the reasons why the government has been persuaded to release UPRNs and USRNs as open data is because there is a big push to get third party data users (eg, utility companies, roadworks contractor and planning applicants) to use the same identifiers as government (local and national) already does internally, so as to minimise the risk of errors in conversion from one identifier to another. To some extent that's already happening, because the big guys are already paying for AddressBase and have a licence to use the data. But it's recognised that for it to become ubiquitous, the data has to be open as many potential users can't, or won't, pay for a commercial licence. To give an example, a lot of planning applications for greenfield developments and agricultural buildings are on land that doesn't have an assigned postal address (because nobody sends post to a field or a barn!). So they get described on planning applications as something like "Land adjacent to 53 Greendale Lane" or "Barn in field behind 23 Pencaster Road", which often isn't helpful as that can be ambiguous. The applicant has to provide what's called the "red line" plan showing the outline of the property to which the application refers, but these are not necessarily accurate. But if a UPRN is provided, the planning authority can look that up on the Land Registry database and see precisely where it is, and the extent of the property, without needing to rely on the applicant's information. And, again, while large scale professional developers almost always get it right (because they can afford to spend money on professional data and mapping), it's the small guys who often don't. So if they can be steered towards supplying the UPRN of the location, it will make things easier all round. But that relies on the UPRN being available and reusable in the first place. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On 10/04/2020 17:37, Brian Prangle wrote: Can I ask two basic daft questions? Perfectly reasonable questions ... What use are these in OSM if we only pick at them instead of importing the lot ( which is highly unlikely)? I'll repeat that we do need to wait and see exactly what will be released, and how comprehensive the data is, but in theory it should be quite possible to cross check a vast range of 'objects' in the database, and more important pick up additions and subtractions of those objects automatically. The comparison is probably with the French property database which I understand has been imported, but I would still prefer to be able to merge third party sources like this with the existing outline in OSM rather than simply importing everything into OSM ... Is it possible to derive street names from USRN in a way that is licence compatible? Exactly the same answer as above, but we know exactly what objects are being handled, and if populated, the exact status of a 'way' can be confirmed. The accuracy is only that of the data sources, but there is a legal requirement for councils to provide updates in timely manor. My feed was 3 monthly, but I think faster updates are now happening at least as new road names are created. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
Can I ask two basic daft questions? What use are these in OSM if we only pick at them instead of importing the lot ( which is highly unlikely)? Is it possible to derive street names from USRN in a way that is licence compatible? Regards Brian On Fri, 10 Apr 2020 at 13:14, Mark Goodge wrote: > > > On 09/04/2020 20:58, nd...@redhazel.co.uk wrote: > > If uprn is supposed to denote an address, why not simply use addr:uprn? > > It doesn't denote an address. While a lot of premises that have a UPRN > also have an address, there are also many that don't. Every individual > field in an agricultural area has a UPRN, for example, as do things like > telephone boxes and street lamps. In fact, one of the main reasons > behind the adoption of UPRNs as the unique identifier for properties is > that addresses alone can't fulfil that purpose. > > Mark > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On 09/04/2020 20:58, nd...@redhazel.co.uk wrote: If uprn is supposed to denote an address, why not simply use addr:uprn? It doesn't denote an address. While a lot of premises that have a UPRN also have an address, there are also many that don't. Every individual field in an agricultural area has a UPRN, for example, as do things like telephone boxes and street lamps. In fact, one of the main reasons behind the adoption of UPRNs as the unique identifier for properties is that addresses alone can't fulfil that purpose. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
Prefer capitalised ref:UK:uprn and ref:UK:usrn as wikipage for ref https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref shows towards the end that US and FR are used to build up refs, FR has a page showing all their ref's https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/France/Liste_des_r%C3%A9f%C3%A9rences_nationales Possibly of interest ISO 3166 allows for GB to be sudivided by local government area to produce eg council areaGB-ABE Aberdeen City en council areaGB-ABD Aberdeenshire en council areaGB-ANS Angus en districtGB-ANN Antrim and Newtownabbey en Not to be part of addr: but as standalone keys. I recognise coding could obviate the need for GB - but that's hard work , GB is easy and memorable and matches what other OSM'rs are doing, and extensible if other countries have keys with the same acronym. Tony Shield On 09/04/2020 20:28, Dan S wrote: Op do 9 apr. 2020 om 19:47 schreef Lester Caine : On 09/04/2020 15:32, Mark Goodge wrote: So I'd propose that we use either ref:uprn and ref:usrn, or ref:UK:uprn and ref:UK:usrn. What does everyone else think? I'd be happy with either, so long as it's consistent. That is ideal from my point of view ... yes you can get the country by processing the location information, but being able to simply list all of them WITHOUT the overhead of other processing has to be the right way forward? We could make such an argument about any tag, e.g. "addr:postcode" couldn't we? Someone who wants a GB-only list can easily get them from a GB extract such as Geofabrik's. On the other hand I'm happy with "ref:gb:uprn" and "ref:gb:usrn" if preferred (can we use lowercase for convenience please?) since it seems these terms are not global. Best Dan ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On 10/04/2020 08:04, Jez Nicholson wrote: I don't think they meant 'replace an address with addr:uprn', just enhance it. I was not being as clear as I should have been. A UPRN parcel of land or object includes those for which an address is not appropriate and which 'Royal Mail' would never deliver to so I don't think it is appropriate to merge with the addr: set. I've already indicated that we need to wait and see just what quality of data will be provided, but I ecpevt that some council areas will not actually have postcode in the data. Certainly 15 years ago when I started receiving datasets this was a secondary piece of data yet at that time we were looking to manage the postcode tables for the councils that were providing the UPRN feed! They were not prepared to pay Royal Mail for data that they were legally required to create themselves ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
I don't think they meant 'replace an address with addr:uprn', just enhance it. On Thu, 9 Apr 2020, 21:37 Lester Caine, wrote: > On 09/04/2020 20:58, nd...@redhazel.co.uk wrote: > > If uprn is supposed to denote an address, why not simply use addr:uprn? > There is no intention that UPRN will replace an address. It will be able > to return a unique address but there will be no move to remove that > duplicate data from OSM. What the UPRN allows is the addition of > external information which is also managed by public services. > > -- > Lester Caine - G8HFL > - > Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact > L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk > Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk > Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On 09/04/2020 20:58, nd...@redhazel.co.uk wrote: If uprn is supposed to denote an address, why not simply use addr:uprn? There is no intention that UPRN will replace an address. It will be able to return a unique address but there will be no move to remove that duplicate data from OSM. What the UPRN allows is the addition of external information which is also managed by public services. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
If uprn is supposed to denote an address, why not simply use addr:uprn? ndrw6 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
Op do 9 apr. 2020 om 19:47 schreef Lester Caine : > > On 09/04/2020 15:32, Mark Goodge wrote: > >> So I'd propose that we use either ref:uprn and ref:usrn, or > >> ref:UK:uprn and ref:UK:usrn. What does everyone else think? > > > > I'd be happy with either, so long as it's consistent. > > That is ideal from my point of view ... yes you can get the country by > processing the location information, but being able to simply list all > of them WITHOUT the overhead of other processing has to be the right way > forward? We could make such an argument about any tag, e.g. "addr:postcode" couldn't we? Someone who wants a GB-only list can easily get them from a GB extract such as Geofabrik's. On the other hand I'm happy with "ref:gb:uprn" and "ref:gb:usrn" if preferred (can we use lowercase for convenience please?) since it seems these terms are not global. Best Dan ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On 09/04/2020 15:32, Mark Goodge wrote: So I'd propose that we use either ref:uprn and ref:usrn, or ref:UK:uprn and ref:UK:usrn. What does everyone else think? I'd be happy with either, so long as it's consistent. That is ideal from my point of view ... yes you can get the country by processing the location information, but being able to simply list all of them WITHOUT the overhead of other processing has to be the right way forward? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On 09/04/2020 17:18, Andy Mabbett wrote: On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 13:06, Mark Goodge wrote: They're a 10 to 12 digit integer. Is there a check digit? No, they're a simple sequential allocation. So an error can't be detected internally, it does need to be verified. But the same is true of postcodes and phone numbers, of course. Similarly to the way that telephone numbers are allocated, though, UPRNs are allocated in blocks to local authorities who then assign them out of their block. So the first few digits of a UPRN will tell you approximately where in the country it is. In fact, you can already link a UPRN to administrative geography via existing open data, it's only drilling right down to precise coordinates that isn't currently possible. If I was designing the checkout process for an online retailer that allowed customers to enter their UPRN rather than a postal address, what I'd do is show them a map, with their UPRN location marked, and ask them to confirm that that is, indeed, the premises they want the item delivered to. That could be done entirely using open data (once UPRNs are open), but a commercial supplier might also want to enhance that by using an address lookup to generate the geographic address from the UPRN and display that to the customer as well. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 13:06, Mark Goodge wrote: > They're a 10 to 12 digit integer. Is there a check digit? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On 09/04/2020 14:26, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote: I would have said that ref:uprn and ref:usrn are the natural choices for use to use. However, I've seen some calls for country codes to be added to 3rd-party ref values, so we might consider ref:UK:uprn and ref:UK:usrn instead. This isn't explicitly documented in the wiki at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref though the French community seems to be using it, as can be seen at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/France/Liste_des_r%C3%A9f%C3%A9rences_nationales , and I think it might make sense. I agree that adding a country identifier makes sense. One of the key attributes of a UPRN is that it is unique within a country. But it may not be globally unique if other countries adopt a similar system. And, because it's just an integer, unlike a postcode, you can't infer the country from the format. But, on the other hand, adding another layer makes it more likely that people will tag them wrongly using what they think is the right method simply because that's what's most obvious to them. I don't see any value in adding NLPG (or it's incorrectly ordered variant NPLG). Although the National Land and Property Gazetteer is where the UPRN values originate from, if they're being used as core identifiers by the government, they're no longer just NLPG values. I agree with this, too. The NLPG is just a database of UPRNs and other data, it isn't the source of them. I also don't see any benefit in adding a :1 :2 etc suffix to the key in anticipation of multiple values (which seems to have been done in several existing UPRN keys). I think this will actually make it harder for data-users than having a single key name and separating multiple values with semi-colons. (You would suddenly need to search multiple different keys to get all possible UPRN-tagged objects.) So I'd propose that we use either ref:uprn and ref:usrn, or ref:UK:uprn and ref:UK:usrn. What does everyone else think? I'd be happy with either, so long as it's consistent. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
It would seem to be "rather" unlikely that such reference ids would be named UPRN and UPSN outside of the UK to start with, so a more generic building_ref, street_ref or similar would be likely more sensible (if there is any value at all in mapping these). And yes similar concepts exist outside of the UK too, however I do not know any case of them finding wide spread use in lieu of addresses any where. Simon Am 09.04.2020 um 16:08 schrieb Gareth L: > Can’t the key location be inferred by the fact it is within a country bounds > rather than redundantly added? > > Gareth > >> On 9 Apr 2020, at 14:46, Tony OSM wrote: >> >> That makes perfect sense to me. >> >> Any other views? >> >> Tony >> >>> On 09/04/2020 14:31, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote: On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 14:26, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote: On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 09:21, Tony OSM wrote: > If the data is to be in the public domain the next step has to be tagging. > Do we need country specific tags for these two pieces of data? > What should they be? >>> [snip] So I'd propose that we use either ref:uprn and ref:usrn, or ref:UK:uprn and ref:UK:usrn. What does everyone else think? >>> Oops. If we were to use the ISO Alpha-2 country codes, it should of >>> course be GB rather then UK. So that would make the keys ref:GB:uprn >>> and ref:GB:usrn . >>> >>> Robert. >>> >> ___ >> Talk-GB mailing list >> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
Can’t the key location be inferred by the fact it is within a country bounds rather than redundantly added? Gareth > On 9 Apr 2020, at 14:46, Tony OSM wrote: > > That makes perfect sense to me. > > Any other views? > > Tony > >> On 09/04/2020 14:31, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote: >>> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 14:26, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) >>> wrote: >>> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 09:21, Tony OSM wrote: If the data is to be in the public domain the next step has to be tagging. Do we need country specific tags for these two pieces of data? What should they be? >> [snip] >>> So I'd propose that we use either ref:uprn and ref:usrn, or >>> ref:UK:uprn and ref:UK:usrn. What does everyone else think? >> Oops. If we were to use the ISO Alpha-2 country codes, it should of >> course be GB rather then UK. So that would make the keys ref:GB:uprn >> and ref:GB:usrn . >> >> Robert. >> > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
That makes perfect sense to me. Any other views? Tony On 09/04/2020 14:31, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote: On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 14:26, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote: On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 09:21, Tony OSM wrote: If the data is to be in the public domain the next step has to be tagging. Do we need country specific tags for these two pieces of data? What should they be? [snip] So I'd propose that we use either ref:uprn and ref:usrn, or ref:UK:uprn and ref:UK:usrn. What does everyone else think? Oops. If we were to use the ISO Alpha-2 country codes, it should of course be GB rather then UK. So that would make the keys ref:GB:uprn and ref:GB:usrn . Robert. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 14:26, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote: > On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 09:21, Tony OSM wrote: > > If the data is to be in the public domain the next step has to be tagging. > > Do we need country specific tags for these two pieces of data? > > What should they be? > [snip] > > So I'd propose that we use either ref:uprn and ref:usrn, or > ref:UK:uprn and ref:UK:usrn. What does everyone else think? Oops. If we were to use the ISO Alpha-2 country codes, it should of course be GB rather then UK. So that would make the keys ref:GB:uprn and ref:GB:usrn . Robert. -- Robert Whittaker ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 09:21, Tony OSM wrote: > If the data is to be in the public domain the next step has to be tagging. > Do we need country specific tags for these two pieces of data? > What should they be? Looking at taginfo, there are a number of different tags in use for UPRN values (see https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=uprn where ref:NPLG:UPRN:1 is the most popular). I think it would be good to agree on a standard key to use before too many more are added. USRN values are more standardised: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=usrn with ref:usrn and NPLG:USRN:1 being the only two keys in use. (NPLG presumably refers to the National Land and Property Gazetteer -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Land_and_Property_Gazetteer -- but the middle two letters are the wrong way round.) I would have said that ref:uprn and ref:usrn are the natural choices for use to use. However, I've seen some calls for country codes to be added to 3rd-party ref values, so we might consider ref:UK:uprn and ref:UK:usrn instead. This isn't explicitly documented in the wiki at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref though the French community seems to be using it, as can be seen at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/France/Liste_des_r%C3%A9f%C3%A9rences_nationales , and I think it might make sense. I don't see any value in adding NLPG (or it's incorrectly ordered variant NPLG). Although the National Land and Property Gazetteer is where the UPRN values originate from, if they're being used as core identifiers by the government, they're no longer just NLPG values. I also don't see any benefit in adding a :1 :2 etc suffix to the key in anticipation of multiple values (which seems to have been done in several existing UPRN keys). I think this will actually make it harder for data-users than having a single key name and separating multiple values with semi-colons. (You would suddenly need to search multiple different keys to get all possible UPRN-tagged objects.) So I'd propose that we use either ref:uprn and ref:usrn, or ref:UK:uprn and ref:UK:usrn. What does everyone else think? Robert. -- Robert Whittaker ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On 03/04/2020 10:15, Peter Neale via Talk-GB wrote: So, will I have to quote a 20-digit alpha-numeric code, if I want to order something from Amazon? ..or get my grandchildren to send me a birthday card? (I do not know what these UPRN's look like, but I bet they are not as easy to remember as "Rose Cottage, 3 Church Lane, XX3 4ZZ") They're a 10 to 12 digit integer. At most, that's one digit longer than a telephone number. It's shorter than a credit card number. Mine is 100121279888. For memorability, I could format that as 1001 2127 9888, pronounced "one thousand and one, two one two seven, nine triple-eight". It isn't necessary to remember all of them, or even any of them, other than your own. Once they're open data they can be stored in any address book, along with things like email address and phone numbers. And to find out where they actually are, you just search for them on Google Maps, OSM, Bing Maps or any other mapping provider. Imagine, for example, that I have this entry in my phone's contact list: Alice Example phone: 01234 567890 mobile: 07654 321321 email: al...@example.com uprn: 123456789012 If I want to phone Alice, I just tap on the number and the phone dials it. If I want to email Alice, I tap on the email address and my phone opens the email app with her address prefilled as the recipient. And if I want to visit her, I tap on the UPRN and my phone opens the default mapping app with a marker showing her location, and offers to provide me with directions on how to get there. I don't need to look up anything other than her name. That doesn't stop anyone using the existing methods of storing an address. But it will make it hugely simpler for anyone who stores them in bulk, such as online retailers. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On 09/04/2020 10:46, Peter Neale via Talk-GB wrote: Hi Lester, Sorry if my post was a bit of a rant. I have a history of having to fight to get IT systems that do the hard work and preventing them demanding that people do the translation into "machine-speak". My rant has always been that postcodes are proprietary data and even in the NLPG data there is a question on if one can use it! The whole thing has always been a mess. Postal Address File I have no problem on being proprietary, just not the postcode on it's own ... Thanks for the explanation. I've had to change most of the references but https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk/wiki/view/NLPG+Data is now up to date, just again, BS7666 is another chargeable element and my copy is no longer available on-line :( OH and it should be UPRN/USRN nowadays ... my 2006 databases still have the USN field name. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
Hi Lester, Sorry if my post was a bit of a rant. I have a history of having to fight to get IT systems that do the hard work and preventing them demanding that people do the translation into "machine-speak". Thanks for the explanation. Regards,Peter On Thursday, 9 April 2020, 10:29:05 BST, Lester Caine wrote: On 03/04/2020 10:15, Peter Neale via Talk-GB wrote: > So, will I have to quote a 20-digit alpha-numeric code, if I want to > order something from Amazon? ..or get my grandchildren to send me a > birthday card? > > (I do not know what these UPRN's look like, but I bet they are not as > easy to remember as "Rose Cottage, 3 Church Lane, XX3 4ZZ") > > We have to think about human readability and memorability, versus > machine computability and we need to be careful not to make the humans > do all the work, just to make it easier for the machines. Making me use > a PostCode is already making me do some of the work, but at least they > are only 6 or 7 characters. The NLPG is intended to provide a single database of all the land in the United Kingdom. Councils have been building this for many years now, and it allows parcels of land that the Post Office do not have any reference to in their Postal Address File to be uniquely identified. Looking up data using Postcodes can be fun but often due to people having the wrong postcode anyway. We can identify the vast majority of residential and business locations using 'building Number'/'Postcode', but additional data is useful to identify that this short form is actually correct, but your council tax or business rates will be charged against the UPRN reference on the council systems. It is not intended to be anything other than a 'machine readable' unique refference ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On 03/04/2020 10:15, Peter Neale via Talk-GB wrote: So, will I have to quote a 20-digit alpha-numeric code, if I want to order something from Amazon? ..or get my grandchildren to send me a birthday card? (I do not know what these UPRN's look like, but I bet they are not as easy to remember as "Rose Cottage, 3 Church Lane, XX3 4ZZ") We have to think about human readability and memorability, versus machine computability and we need to be careful not to make the humans do all the work, just to make it easier for the machines. Making me use a PostCode is already making me do some of the work, but at least they are only 6 or 7 characters. The NLPG is intended to provide a single database of all the land in the United Kingdom. Councils have been building this for many years now, and it allows parcels of land that the Post Office do not have any reference to in their Postal Address File to be uniquely identified. Looking up data using Postcodes can be fun but often due to people having the wrong postcode anyway. We can identify the vast majority of residential and business locations using 'building Number'/'Postcode', but additional data is useful to identify that this short form is actually correct, but your council tax or business rates will be charged against the UPRN reference on the council systems. It is not intended to be anything other than a 'machine readable' unique refference ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On 09/04/2020 09:19, Tony OSM wrote: Thanks to Andy for highlighting this. If the data is to be in the public domain the next step has to be tagging. As someone who has been using this data internally for clients who are the councils who have been providing it TO the charged for services I'm pleased that now I will not have to worry about linking that data to OSM data. Do we need country specific tags for these two pieces of data? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref:NPLG:UPRN:1 has existed for a while, but the matching Key:ref:NPLG:UPSN:1 doesn't as yet. Personally I think this style is messy and a GB/UK element would make sense ... and actually identifying that this is United Kingdom related in the wiki page would be helpful! What should they be? Do we need a wiki for them , where? I'll summarise the answers and create a wiki page if someone tells me where to place it - a UK specific page or section? Any traction in creating tools to help populating any new tags? It will be nice to see just what level if data is provided on the public feed when it becomes available. The level and accuracy of the data IS very much dependent on the level of effort that each council puts in, with some providing the full details of the land area described while others only provide a location reference. So there will be some problems producing a 'generic' tool to add UPRN tags to buildings and land plots. USN references should be a lot easier to automatically merge since the street name provided via OS data sets is the same one as used in USPN ... or should be ... Could this be a subject for a discussion as the probably virtual OSM AGM? This is just a United Kingdom discussion currently although as I understand it a few other countries do have something similar so a common country based tag for 'Property Reference' and 'Street Reference' may be a valid subject. But UPRN and USN seem right anyway. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
Thanks to Andy for highlighting this. If the data is to be in the public domain the next step has to be tagging. Do we need country specific tags for these two pieces of data? What should they be? Do we need a wiki for them , where? I'll summarise the answers and create a wiki page if someone tells me where to place it - a UK specific page or section? Any traction in creating tools to help populating any new tags? Could this be a subject for a discussion as the probably virtual OSM AGM? Regards - and stay safe Tony Shield TonyS999 On 02/04/2020 16:08, Andy Mabbett wrote: "Unique Property and Street Reference Numbers to become the standard way of referencing and sharing address information about properties and streets across government, helping to transform public services and boost our economy" https://www.gov.uk/government/news/geospatial-commission-to-release-core-identifiers-under-open-government-licence ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
So, will I have to quote a 20-digit alpha-numeric code, if I want to order something from Amazon? ..or get my grandchildren to send me a birthday card? (I do not know what these UPRN's look like, but I bet they are not as easy to remember as "Rose Cottage, 3 Church Lane, XX3 4ZZ") We have to think about human readability and memorability, versus machine computability and we need to be careful not to make the humans do all the work, just to make it easier for the machines. Making me use a PostCode is already making me do some of the work, but at least they are only 6 or 7 characters. Regards,Peter On Friday, 3 April 2020, 09:59:27 BST, Mark Goodge wrote: On 03/04/2020 09:27, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote: > There will presumably be a drive in government circles to store > addresses as UPRN's, and then fetch the associated location and > address data from AddressBase. Assuming Rob's interpretation is > correct (I think it probably is) then this could be bad new for > sources of addresses and postcodes for OSM. While we'll be more easily > able to geo-locate objects from their URPN's, the actual addresses in > any datasets will become more likely to be contaminated by OS's IP > rights in AddressBase. In the long run, I suspect this could actually spell the end for postal addresses (as distinct from geographic addresses). If every property has a published, unique number, analogous to a telephone number, then all that's necessary for, say, Amazon to deliver a package to me is for them to know the UPRN of my house. Their routing software will then do all the heavy lifting of plotting how to get the package from their depot to my door. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On 03/04/2020 09:27, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote: There will presumably be a drive in government circles to store addresses as UPRN's, and then fetch the associated location and address data from AddressBase. Assuming Rob's interpretation is correct (I think it probably is) then this could be bad new for sources of addresses and postcodes for OSM. While we'll be more easily able to geo-locate objects from their URPN's, the actual addresses in any datasets will become more likely to be contaminated by OS's IP rights in AddressBase. In the long run, I suspect this could actually spell the end for postal addresses (as distinct from geographic addresses). If every property has a published, unique number, analogous to a telephone number, then all that's necessary for, say, Amazon to deliver a package to me is for them to know the UPRN of my house. Their routing software will then do all the heavy lifting of plotting how to get the package from their depot to my door. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
On Thu, 2 Apr 2020 at 22:19, RobJN wrote:
> It's all a bit unclear but from what I've read it sounds like there will be
> a release of the UPRN / UPSN identifiers and their associated geometries
> ("coordinates" in some text). I see no reference to address data being part
> of the release.
There will presumably be a drive in government circles to store
addresses as UPRN's, and then fetch the associated location and
address data from AddressBase. Assuming Rob's interpretation is
correct (I think it probably is) then this could be bad new for
sources of addresses and postcodes for OSM. While we'll be more easily
able to geo-locate objects from their URPN's, the actual addresses in
any datasets will become more likely to be contaminated by OS's IP
rights in AddressBase.
So this news could be a bit of a double-edged sword I think. e.g. if
the FHRS data switched to using UPRNs and AddressBase-derived
addresses, we would lose the ability to make use of addresses and
postcodes from the FHRS data, but then we'd have accurate locations we
could rely on to directly add establishments to the map from their
FHRS entry.
Robert.
--
Robert Whittaker
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Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
As always, Owen has a good write-up: https://twitter.com/owenboswarva/status/1245763596782575617?s=19 Thank you Rob -- Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Great-Britain-f5372682.html ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
Hi Jez,
It's all a bit unclear but from what I've read it sounds like there will be
a release of the UPRN / UPSN identifiers and their associated geometries
("coordinates" in some text). I see no reference to address data being part
of the release.
What it will mean is that there will be an easy way to geolocate any
datasets that have these identifiers. Currently you have to do this based on
postcode or address (and we know that addresses can be fuzzy things).
It's probably worth at least one of us writing to them to confirm exactly
what will be released.
Thank you
Rob
--
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Re: [Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
please tell me that does not mean that rather than releasing geodata with lat-lon, street address, etc., UK Govt will use a proprietary id instead? and to turn this id into something usable I have to licence an OS product. On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 4:10 PM Andy Mabbett wrote: > "Unique Property and Street Reference Numbers to become the standard > way of referencing and sharing address information about properties > and streets across government, helping to transform public services > and boost our economy" > > > https://www.gov.uk/government/news/geospatial-commission-to-release-core-identifiers-under-open-government-licence > > -- > Andy Mabbett > @pigsonthewing > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Geospatial Commission to release UPRN/ UPSN identifiers under Open Government Licence
"Unique Property and Street Reference Numbers to become the standard way of referencing and sharing address information about properties and streets across government, helping to transform public services and boost our economy" https://www.gov.uk/government/news/geospatial-commission-to-release-core-identifiers-under-open-government-licence -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
