[Talk-is] Road classification and network=*

[riiga]

Hello nordic neighbours from Sweden!

I'd like to improve the use of the "network" key for road routes in 
Iceland.


The background is that I've been contributing to a new map renderer 
(https://github.com/ZeLonewolf/openstreetmap-americana) that uses route 
relations to display route shields on roads, rather than deduce it from 
the keys on each road segment. Iceland seems to already have a 
well-structured system for the classification of roads and use of the 
"network" key, however, there seems to be an inconsistency in how 
multiple classifications of the same route are handled. It would be 
helpful if an order could be decided for the use of multiple values, 
e.g. "S;T;L" instead of having both "S;T;L" on one route and "T;S;L" on 
another, or is there a reason for the specific order?


Another issue, the more important one in fact, is that the values are 
not prefixed with a two-letter country code (see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:network). I would like to 
introduce this, so that the values in the network key are prefixed with 
"IS:", so e.g. "network=Sx" would become "network=IS:Sx".


Best regards,
riiga

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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 26 Jul 2019 at 20:55, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> I think if you apply sensible defaults where not tagged (track => unpaved,
> other roads => paved, 50 km/hr for residential, lanes=2), then we have
> mapped a lot already, sure there's a lot to go, but we're getting there.
>

The subject of defaults, reminds me of something that I've been going to
bring up for a while now.

There was discussion on the Tagging list back in May
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-May/045149.html
concerning
changes being made to road types in Japan
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Japan_tagging/Road_types.

I don't know how, but these changes are apparently only going to effect
roads in Japan?

Since then, I've been going to bring it up here as to how we can set up
changes / defaults for Oz roads?

As Andrew said ^ - setting highway=residential as a default 50 kph would
immediately set the correct speed limit for probably 90% of Australian
residential streets!

So if it can be done in Japan, how do we do it?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Andrew Harvey]

 > I'm not sure why other users are not using attributes/tags like lanes,
surface, smoothness, maxspeed, toll and other attributes which would be of
great help to figure out what is the capacity of the road.

Do you mean OSM mappers, or downstream consumers of OSM data?

A lot of mappers are adding lane count, toll, and maxspeed. I think if you
apply sensible defaults where not tagged (track => unpaved, other roads =>
paved, 50 km/hr for residential, lanes=2), then we have mapped a lot
already, sure there's a lot to go, but we're getting there.

On Fri, 26 Jul 2019 at 18:13, Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) via Talk-au <
talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Like Warin mentioned, you have government data which indicates roads
> priority. For NSW that is LPI NSW Basemap, for other territories shp of
> routes. It is not a deal breaker, but it would be nice to unify the data.
> Warin example for tertiary roads is just one of them but great one, because
> if you have two parallel streets, mapper can decide which one road is more
> important than another just because he/she is using it more frequently.
> This does not mean that it is of greater importance. Government is the one
> making the roads so they plan flow of traffic to be as best/fast/safe as it
> can. Therefore, road classification is important.
>
> If you plan to go from point A to point B almost always you want to travel
> for less time. So, combination of road class, speed limit, road surface,
> turn restrictions... is very important in this case. This will make other
> users life easier. I'm not sure why other users are not using
> attributes/tags like lanes, surface, smoothness, maxspeed, toll and other
> attributes which would be of great help to figure out what is the capacity
> of the road.
>
> Yes, of course that I have checked guidelines, like for example 4wd only
> which is AU specific, etc. but still there is no unique opinion and
> guideline for this problem. It is up to the eye/opinion of mapper to set
> right class. Two-three mappers can have different opinions, but if you have
> 1000 opinions you make most frequent the right one. This is why I asked for
> more opinions and because you guys helped me to clear this one up, I will
> revert motorway to trunk.
>
> Still lot of questions remain, and I would like to keep this discussion
> open so we can make unique decisions.  Government data is not "The Holly
> Bible" but it sure is a great indicator of road importance.
>
> I really appreciate that you all dig into this one. Thank you very much!
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Warin]

On 26/07/19 18:11, Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) via Talk-au wrote:


Still lot of questions remain,



Keep asking.

Government data is not "The Holly Bible" but it sure is a great 
indicator of road importance.




It is a guide.

Better than satellite imagery for things that are too similar in 
physical features to differentiate. Better than many causal visitors.




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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) via Talk-au]

Like Warin mentioned, you have government data which indicates roads priority. 
For NSW that is LPI NSW Basemap, for other territories shp of routes. It is not 
a deal breaker, but it would be nice to unify the data. Warin example for 
tertiary roads is just one of them but great one, because if you have two 
parallel streets, mapper can decide which one road is more important than 
another just because he/she is using it more frequently. This does not mean 
that it is of greater importance. Government is the one making the roads so 
they plan flow of traffic to be as best/fast/safe as it can. Therefore, road 
classification is important.
If you plan to go from point A to point B almost always you want to travel for 
less time. So, combination of road class, speed limit, road surface, turn 
restrictions... is very important in this case. This will make other users life 
easier. I'm not sure why other users are not using attributes/tags like lanes, 
surface, smoothness, maxspeed, toll and other attributes which would be of 
great help to figure out what is the capacity of the road.
Yes, of course that I have checked guidelines, like for example 4wd only which 
is AU specific, etc. but still there is no unique opinion and guideline for 
this problem. It is up to the eye/opinion of mapper to set right class. 
Two-three mappers can have different opinions, but if you have 1000 opinions 
you make most frequent the right one. This is why I asked for more opinions and 
because you guys helped me to clear this one up, I will revert motorway to 
trunk.
Still lot of questions remain, and I would like to keep this discussion open so 
we can make unique decisions.  Government data is not "The Holly Bible" but it 
sure is a great indicator of road importance.
I really appreciate that you all dig into this one. Thank you very much!

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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Warin]

On 25/07/19 23:06, Sebastian S. wrote:

Hi Aleksandar,

Just in case you have not reviewed it, there Is a wiki page Australian 
tagging guideline 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines


However Regarding your question 1 mayor road classification has always 
been a no-go for me.

E.g. A8 Pittwater Road, North of Sydney, NSW.

It is an 'A' road according to Wikipedia these As are "primary 
highways, including urban arterials and interstate or interregional 
single carriageways."


Now for the most part the A8 has two or more lanes that are separated, 
however the road is also lined with intersections with red lights, 
driveways and houses. It is an important and high capacity road.


While the first points to me indicate it should be highway=trunk the 
last points make me think it should be highway=primary.


As I often find myself in similar dilemmas I tend to not change the 
classification.


For some guidance in NSW the LPI Base Map can be of help.
As an example I use it for tertiary versus unclassified as these tend 
not to have physical differences but the importance to the local 
community is the thing that changes them.


Aside from providing some examples of your cases I ask you what is 
your driver to look at the road classification and see the need to 
revise it?


What are the benefits of a road changing between trunk and primary? 
What does it do for map users and data consumers?


I would think that routers will pay some attention to the road 
classification, assuming the higher one would be preferred for a faster 
trip (less side entrances, stop etc).


The way I understand your email you refer to major review of the 
classification and not a fix if a single local point.


Or do you consider the classification of (some) roads that wrong that 
you can't live with it?


Curious, Sebastian
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

On 23 July 2019 12:50:19 am AEST, "Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) via 
Talk-au"  wrote:


Hi all,

My name is Aleksandar Matejevic, I work for Microsoft OSM
Editorial team. In order to make the best decision in classifying
roads across Australia, I need some help.

In government data and on signposts you can find on mapillary
and/or open street cam, you can track route numbers. I found out
that routes mostly consist of:

M route – motorways

A route – trunks

B route – primary roads

C route - secondary roads

As long you map in non-urban area this is 99.99% true, but when
you map into city area it starts to get confusing.

On this wiki page
_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Australia_ there is no
real explanation how to classify AUS roads in OSM

If you strictly follow this page:
_https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway_ than you should
change road classification several times on the same route way.

Therefore I have a couple of questions:

1. Do you change the classification of highway on the motorway
route into trunk through the city because it does not have a
physical barrier in between (not restricted access) or do you keep
it as motorway because of consistency?

2. If we were to change the road classification several times
during one route way, should we ignore segments that are less than
3km (for example motorway going through minor city in which it has
a quality of trunk)?

3. Can motorway have some traffic signals when passing through city?

4. How to classify State routes (for example in Melbourne)?

Best regards,

Aleksandar



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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Sebastian Spiess]

Am 2019-07-25 23:48, schrieb Andrew Harvey:

On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 21:12, Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search)
 wrote:


Thanks for the reply,

I haven't followed Wiki blindly because it can be contradictory
sometimes, that's the reason why I'm asking these questions here.
Also, I think that gov routes are there to indicate importance of
the road and flow of traffic.

I would personally wait for couple of more opinions regarding this
before reverting suggested road classification. If there are any
local mapper for these areas It would be great if they could turn
into conversation to give an opinion?


I think we have enough comments here, and documentation on both the
highway=motorway and Australian Tagging Gudelines wiki page (that Seb
just pointed out) to say that
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/110348897/history and the rest of
that road should be reverted, as it's clearly not a highway=motorway.



A bit OT but I noticed that the previous version had bicycle=yes. This 
is also an an aspect that contradicts my understanding of a highway. 
Many major roads, even toll ways have bicycle signage and it seems to be 
accepted to use by bike. This is very different from e.g. Germany where 
this is forbidden on an Autobahn.


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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Andrew Harvey]

On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 21:12, Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) <
v-maa...@microsoft.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the reply,
>
>
>
> I haven't followed Wiki blindly because it can be contradictory sometimes,
> that's the reason why I'm asking these questions here. Also, I think that
> gov routes are there to indicate importance of the road and flow of traffic.
>
>
>
> I would personally wait for couple of more opinions regarding this before
> reverting suggested road classification. If there are any local mapper for
> these areas It would be great if they could turn into conversation to give
> an opinion?
>

I think we have enough comments here, and documentation on both the
highway=motorway and Australian Tagging Gudelines wiki page (that Seb just
pointed out) to say that
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/110348897/history and
the rest of that road should be reverted, as it's clearly not a
highway=motorway.
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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Sebastian S.]

Hi Aleksandar,

Just in case you have not reviewed it, there Is a wiki page Australian tagging 
guideline https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines

However Regarding your question 1 mayor road classification has always been a 
no-go for me.
E.g. A8 Pittwater Road, North of Sydney, NSW.

It is an 'A' road according to Wikipedia these As are "primary highways, 
including urban arterials and interstate or interregional single carriageways."

Now for the most part the A8 has two or more lanes that are separated, however 
the road is also lined with intersections with red lights, driveways and 
houses. It is an important and high capacity road.

While the first points to me indicate it should be highway=trunk the last 
points make me think it should be highway=primary.

As I often find myself in similar dilemmas I tend to not change the 
classification.

Aside from providing some examples of your cases I ask you what is your driver 
to look at the road classification and see the need to revise it?

What are the benefits of a road changing between trunk and primary? What does 
it do for map users and data consumers?

The way I understand your email you refer to major review of the classification 
and not a fix if a single local point.

Or do you consider the classification of (some) roads that wrong that you can't 
live with it?

Curious, Sebastian
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

On 23 July 2019 12:50:19 am AEST, "Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) via Talk-au" 
 wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>My name is Aleksandar Matejevic, I work for Microsoft OSM Editorial
>team. In order to make the best decision in classifying roads across
>Australia, I need some help.
>
>In government data and on signposts you can find on mapillary and/or
>open street cam, you can track route numbers. I found out that routes
>mostly consist of:
>
>M route - motorways
>
>A route - trunks
>
>B route - primary roads
>
>C route - secondary roads
>
>As long you map in non-urban area this is 99.99% true, but when you map
>into city area it starts to get confusing.
>
>On this wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Australia
>there is no real explanation how to classify AUS roads in OSM
>
>If you strictly follow this page:
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway than you should change
>road classification several times on the same route way.
>
>Therefore I have a couple of questions:
>
>1. Do you change the classification of highway on the motorway route
>into trunk through the city because it does not have a physical barrier
>in between (not restricted access) or do you keep it as motorway
>because of consistency?
>
>2. If we were to change the road classification several times during
>one route way, should we ignore segments that are less than 3km (for
>example motorway going through minor city in which it has a quality of
>trunk)?
>
>3. Can motorway have some traffic signals when passing through city?
>
>4. How to classify State routes (for example in Melbourne)?
>
>
>
>Best regards,
>
>Aleksandar
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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Ewen Hill]

Just an update on Motorways. Australia has very few and most of these are
normally mapped correctly already. The Bass Highway in Victoria is not a
motorway as a number of roads enter at 90 degrees as well as driveways.
There is definitely no motorway through the townships of Cranbourne and
Tooradin as well as other towns. This is a Trunk road as it a key route to
west Gippsland towns.

The only time you would need to change to a motorway is for upgrades to
highways and local knowledge will do that for you.

Thanks for all your edits

Ewen

On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 22:07, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> Forwarding this email to the list, as it was held in moderation due to the
> embedded images.
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Andrew Harvey 
> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 19:55
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS
> To: Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) 
> Cc: talk-au@openstreetmap.org 
>
>
> Thanks for the examples.
>
> On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 19:27, Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) <
> v-maa...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>> *Motorway or Trunk: **-38.3999033,145.5370408*
>> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=-38.3999033%2C145.5370408#map=16/-38.4011/145.5388>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Follow this Mapillary.
>>
>>
>> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=-38.3994248999=145.5372489=19.64334424490615=photo=QjkvLvLb1fNa_SNzVpbcgw
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This is [M420], motorway which enters the town. Should the part
>> through the town be mapped as trunk or to keep it as motorway, because when
>> it leaves town it is for sure motorway but in town it does not fulfill the
>> description of motorway, also it has traffic signals.
>>
>
> According to the OSM wiki highway=motorway is for a controlled access
> highway, which wikipedia says:
>
> "A controlled-access highway provides an unhindered flow of traffic, with
> no traffic signals <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_signals>,
> intersections <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersection_(road)> or property
> access <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontage>. They are free of any at-grade
> crossings <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-grade_intersection> with
> other roads, railways, or pedestrian paths, which are instead carried by
> overpasses <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpass> and underpasses
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underpass>. Entrances and exits to the
> highway are provided at interchanges
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interchange_(road)> by slip roads (ramps),
> which allow for speed changes between the highway and arterials
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arterial_road> and collector roads
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collector_road>. On the controlled-access
> highway, opposing directions of travel are generally separated by a median
> strip <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_strip> or central reservation
> containing a traffic barrier
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_barrier> or grass. Elimination of
> conflicts with other directions of traffic dramatically improves safety[1]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled-access_highway#cite_note-1> and
> capacity."
>
> Based on this, the Bass Highway is trunk not a motorway (it has traffic
> lights, roundabouts, it doesn't provide onramp/offramps), so I think you
> need to revert your recent tag change to this road, not just for the
> sections through towns, but for the whole road.
>
>
>>
>> *Trunk or Primary: **-34.8378323, 138.5029666*
>> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=-34.8378323%2C%20138.5029666#map=18/-34.83795/138.50335>
>>
>>
>> We will follow the [A16] route from junction Victoria Road – Nelson
>> Street. These two roads are on the same [A16] route. Victoria Road is
>> mapped as Trunk, but Nelson Street is set as Primary Road.
>> These both roads look almost the same – two separate ways with two or three
>> lanes, no barrier in between:
>>
>>
>>
>> *Nelson Street*
>>
>>
>> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo=kJLW93dqu0t4cM34Al4wtA=-34.83935459862475=138.4998110442043=17
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Victoria Road*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo=fqlFms86fTiE-ODwBcrHhQ=-34.83792630649351=138.50419954805196=1.874671732287
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The only difference is road type (Road vs Street). But, route [A16] then
>> continues in Semaphore Road, which also looks exactly the same as
>> previous two roads, but it is mapped as Primary Road. This street to me
>> also looks as tr

Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Andrew Harvey]

Forwarding this email to the list, as it was held in moderation due to the
embedded images.

-- Forwarded message -
From: Andrew Harvey 
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 19:55
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS
To: Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) 
Cc: talk-au@openstreetmap.org 


Thanks for the examples.

On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 19:27, Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) <
v-maa...@microsoft.com> wrote:

> *Motorway or Trunk: **-38.3999033,145.5370408*
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=-38.3999033%2C145.5370408#map=16/-38.4011/145.5388>
>
>
>
>
> Follow this Mapillary.
>
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=-38.3994248999=145.5372489=19.64334424490615=photo=QjkvLvLb1fNa_SNzVpbcgw
>
>
>
>
> This is [M420], motorway which enters the town. Should the part
> through the town be mapped as trunk or to keep it as motorway, because when
> it leaves town it is for sure motorway but in town it does not fulfill the
> description of motorway, also it has traffic signals.
>

According to the OSM wiki highway=motorway is for a controlled access
highway, which wikipedia says:

"A controlled-access highway provides an unhindered flow of traffic, with
no traffic signals <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_signals>,
intersections <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersection_(road)> or property
access <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontage>. They are free of any at-grade
crossings <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-grade_intersection> with other
roads, railways, or pedestrian paths, which are instead carried by
overpasses <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpass> and underpasses
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underpass>. Entrances and exits to the
highway are provided at interchanges
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interchange_(road)> by slip roads (ramps),
which allow for speed changes between the highway and arterials
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arterial_road> and collector roads
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collector_road>. On the controlled-access
highway, opposing directions of travel are generally separated by a median
strip <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_strip> or central reservation
containing a traffic barrier <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_barrier> or
grass. Elimination of conflicts with other directions of traffic
dramatically improves safety[1]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled-access_highway#cite_note-1> and
capacity."

Based on this, the Bass Highway is trunk not a motorway (it has traffic
lights, roundabouts, it doesn't provide onramp/offramps), so I think you
need to revert your recent tag change to this road, not just for the
sections through towns, but for the whole road.


>
> *Trunk or Primary: **-34.8378323, 138.5029666*
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=-34.8378323%2C%20138.5029666#map=18/-34.83795/138.50335>
>
>
> We will follow the [A16] route from junction Victoria Road – Nelson
> Street. These two roads are on the same [A16] route. Victoria Road is
> mapped as Trunk, but Nelson Street is set as Primary Road.
> These both roads look almost the same – two separate ways with two or three
> lanes, no barrier in between:
>
>
>
> *Nelson Street*
>
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo=kJLW93dqu0t4cM34Al4wtA=-34.83935459862475=138.4998110442043=17
>
>
>
>
> *Victoria Road*
>
>
>
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo=fqlFms86fTiE-ODwBcrHhQ=-34.83792630649351=138.50419954805196=1.874671732287
>
>
>
>
> The only difference is road type (Road vs Street). But, route [A16] then
> continues in Semaphore Road, which also looks exactly the same as
> previous two roads, but it is mapped as Primary Road. This street to me
> also looks as trunk. Part of Semaphore Road which is not on [A16] route is
> mapped as *secondary*, but it looks like a *primary* road. In this
> case, should Semaphore Road be mapped as trunk – primary, instead of
> primary – secondary?
>

It's not just the physical condition of the road, but also how important
that road is from the road network perspective, so generally the more
traffic the road gets and the more "important" it is in terms of linking
major centres together, then the higher the classification. So in that way,
two roads which look the same can have different classification based on
their importance in the road network.


>
>
> Next case, on [A16] route, *Causeway Road* is definitely a primary road.
>
>
>
>
>
> https://openstreetcam.org/details/1341011/254/track-info
>
>
>
> Further on, [A16] continues to *Bower Road*, which looks like a trunk
> road, but it’s mapped as a primary.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo=_jlpimXN_-a17

Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Andrew Harvey]

me? Actually I myself have done very little mapping in VIC, so don't have
the local knowledge there.

It looks like some of these messages have got caught in the mailing list
moderator queue. I'll try to forward them on without the embedded images.

On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 21:21, Phil Wyatt  wrote:

> I suggest you point Andrew to some areas of concern before any reversions.
> He is a prolific mapper in Victoria (and many other areas).
>
>
> Cheers - Phil,
> On the road with his iPad
>
> On 23 Jul 2019, at 9:12 pm, Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) via Talk-au <
> talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the reply,
>
>
>
> I haven't followed Wiki blindly because it can be contradictory sometimes,
> that's the reason why I'm asking these questions here. Also, I think that
> gov routes are there to indicate importance of the road and flow of traffic.
>
>
>
> I would personally wait for couple of more opinions regarding this before
> reverting suggested road classification. If there are any local mapper for
> these areas It would be great if they could turn into conversation to give
> an opinion?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aleksandar
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Disclaimer: I never was in Australia
22 Jul 2019, 16:50 by talk-au@openstreetmap.org:
>
>
>  1. Do you change the classification of highway on the motorway route into 
> trunk through the city because it does not have a physical barrier in between 
> (not restricted access) or do you keep it as motorway because of consistency?
>
>
>
Yes, highway=motorway should not appear in roads without even dual
carriageway.
>
> 2. If we were to change the road classification several times during one 
> route way, should we ignore segments that are less than 3km (for example 
> motorway going through minor city in which it has a quality of trunk)? 
>
>
I would change classification, but
it seems dubious to me that it would be a
motorway.

Specific example would be helpful here.
>
> 3. Can motorway have some traffic signals when passing through city?
>
>
No. Though motorway link
connecting to roads may have traffic
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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Phil Wyatt]

I suggest you point Andrew to some areas of concern before any reversions. He 
is a prolific mapper in Victoria (and many other areas).


Cheers - Phil, 
On the road with his iPad 

> On 23 Jul 2019, at 9:12 pm, Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) via Talk-au 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the reply,
>  
> I haven't followed Wiki blindly because it can be contradictory sometimes, 
> that's the reason why I'm asking these questions here. Also, I think that gov 
> routes are there to indicate importance of the road and flow of traffic.
>  
> I would personally wait for couple of more opinions regarding this before 
> reverting suggested road classification. If there are any local mapper for 
> these areas It would be great if they could turn into conversation to give an 
> opinion?
>  
> Thanks,
> Aleksandar
>  
>  
> ___
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> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) via Talk-au]

Thanks for the reply,

I haven't followed Wiki blindly because it can be contradictory sometimes, 
that's the reason why I'm asking these questions here. Also, I think that gov 
routes are there to indicate importance of the road and flow of traffic.

I would personally wait for couple of more opinions regarding this before 
reverting suggested road classification. If there are any local mapper for 
these areas It would be great if they could turn into conversation to give an 
opinion?

Thanks,
Aleksandar


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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Andrew Harvey]

Do you have any examples of some of the roads in question? Could you link
to those please?

On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 00:51, Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) via Talk-au <
talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> My name is Aleksandar Matejevic, I work for Microsoft OSM Editorial team.
> In order to make the best decision in classifying roads across Australia, I
> need some help.
>
> In government data and on signposts you can find on mapillary and/or open
> street cam, you can track route numbers. I found out that routes mostly
> consist of:
>
> M route – motorways
>
> A route – trunks
>
> B route – primary roads
>
> C route - secondary roads
>
> As long you map in non-urban area this is 99.99% true, but when you map
> into city area it starts to get confusing.
>
> On this wiki page *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Australia
> * there is no real
> explanation how to classify AUS roads in OSM
>
> If you strictly follow this page: 
> *https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway
> * than you should change
> road classification several times on the same route way.
>
> Therefore I have a couple of questions:
>
> 1. Do you change the classification of highway on the motorway route into
> trunk through the city because it does not have a physical barrier in
> between (not restricted access) or do you keep it as motorway because of
> consistency?
>
> 2. If we were to change the road classification several times during one
> route way, should we ignore segments that are less than 3km (for example
> motorway going through minor city in which it has a quality of trunk)?
>
> 3. Can motorway have some traffic signals when passing through city?
>
> 4. How to classify State routes (for example in Melbourne)?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Aleksandar
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) via Talk-au]

Hi all,

My name is Aleksandar Matejevic, I work for Microsoft OSM Editorial team. In 
order to make the best decision in classifying roads across Australia, I need 
some help.

In government data and on signposts you can find on mapillary and/or open 
street cam, you can track route numbers. I found out that routes mostly consist 
of:

M route - motorways

A route - trunks

B route - primary roads

C route - secondary roads

As long you map in non-urban area this is 99.99% true, but when you map into 
city area it starts to get confusing.

On this wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Australia there is 
no real explanation how to classify AUS roads in OSM

If you strictly follow this page: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway than you should change road 
classification several times on the same route way.

Therefore I have a couple of questions:

1. Do you change the classification of highway on the motorway route into trunk 
through the city because it does not have a physical barrier in between (not 
restricted access) or do you keep it as motorway because of consistency?

2. If we were to change the road classification several times during one route 
way, should we ignore segments that are less than 3km (for example motorway 
going through minor city in which it has a quality of trunk)?

3. Can motorway have some traffic signals when passing through city?

4. How to classify State routes (for example in Melbourne)?



Best regards,

Aleksandar



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Re: [Talk-is] road classification proposals

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

I have updated the wiki with a small addition - the information there 
was from 2011 so it is VERY outdated.


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Icelandic_road_system

Proposal 2 seems most like what we have been doing so far.


On 23.4.2017 08:55, jay lialis wrote:

PROPOSAL 1
trunk - Highway 1/multiple-lane urban avenues
primary - 2-digit roads/major city roads
secondary - 3-digit roads/minor city roads
tertiary - roads connecting villages, city roads with priority
unclassified - unpaved roads/roads connecting farms, factories etc

PROPOSAL 2
trunk - Highway 1/multiple-lane urban avenues
primary - S roads/major city roads
secondary - T roads/minor city roads
tertiary - paved H/L roads, roads connecting villages/city roads with 
priority

unclassified - unpaved roads, roads connecting farms, factories etc

PROPOSAL 3
trunk - S roads
primary - T roads/major city roads
secondary - paved L-H roads/minor city roads
tertiary -  unpaved roads, roads connecting villages, city roads with 
priority

unclassified - roads connecting farms, factories etc



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[Talk-is] road classification proposals

[jay lialis]

PROPOSAL 1
trunk - Highway 1/multiple-lane urban avenues
primary - 2-digit roads/major city roads
secondary - 3-digit roads/minor city roads
tertiary - roads connecting villages, city roads with priority
unclassified - unpaved roads/roads connecting farms, factories etc

PROPOSAL 2
trunk - Highway 1/multiple-lane urban avenues
primary - S roads/major city roads
secondary - T roads/minor city roads
tertiary - paved H/L roads, roads connecting villages/city roads with
priority
unclassified - unpaved roads, roads connecting farms, factories etc

PROPOSAL 3
trunk - S roads
primary - T roads/major city roads
secondary - paved L-H roads/minor city roads
tertiary -  unpaved roads, roads connecting villages, city roads with
priority
unclassified - roads connecting farms, factories etc
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[Talk-is] road classification

[jay lialis]

i know about Vegagerðin, i have downloaded the map

i was just wondering if there is a law defining road classes
(primary, secondary, national, provincial etc)

the road signs have all the same font and colors, as if all roads are on
the same level

as i understand 3-digit roads are region specific (so maybe they are
considered provincial?)

i believe the wiki needs some additions to be easier to navigate, something
like a whole paragraph "Roads in Iceland" with some general info and a road
class table, with links to the road-specific secondary pages, where there
are lists of the roads

i also think these lists belong to osm wiki and not wikipedia
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[Talk-is] road classification etc

[jay lialis]

hello, i am Jay from Greece, i would like to help with icelandic roads
(wikiproject Iceland and actual mapping)

i am thinking we should have a table for administrative divisions (complete
with name, admin levels, link to relations etc) and a table about road
classes..

take a look at the greek wiki i helped build:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Greece

there are also separate pages about motorways/national highways/provincial
roads (as defined by law)

as understand there are 2 separate classification systems in Iceland:
-S/T/H/L/F system
-1/2/3/4-digit numbered roads

We should decide which one we use and what is trunk, primary etc

Is there any laws defining distinctive road classes (or what is national
and what provincial?)

for matters like this we made a poll in the greek forum, maybe we should
also do this here

thank you
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[OSM-talk] Malta - Road classification

[Karl Guggisberg]

Hi all,

can anybody point me to information about road classification and road
numbering schemes in Malta? I'm currently cycling and mapping in Gozo, one
of the maltese islands, and I'd like to update the road classifications and
numberings in the current OSM dataset.

Thanks in advance
Karl
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Re: [Talk-us] Road classification

[Alan Brown]

But - what percentage of local traffic or through traffic ends up on those 
roads?  It's relative importance that matter.  If you need to go through an 
area - what do you take?

Same concept applied to city labelling - look at a globe some time.  It's not 
unusual to see Thule, Greenland labelled, or Iqaluit, Nunavut.  Why? 
Because they're the most significant towns in the area - even though they have 
tiny populations.

On the other hand - what about San Jose, CA, 10th biggest city in the US?  They 
always label San Francisco first - even though San Jose is bigger, with a 
million people.  It's perceived importance.

-Alan (self-conscious resident of San Jose)





From: Karl Newman siliconfi...@gmail.com
To: Joseph Scanlan n7...@arrl.net
Cc: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:04:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Road classification




On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Joseph Scanlan n7...@arrl.net wrote:

On Tue, 16 Dec 2008, Alan Brown wrote:


This is the way I like to think about it - if you're zoomed way out, a map of 
motorways and trunk roads alone is best: plenty of useful information, but not 
cluttered.

This philosophy helps justify what you'll find here in the desert south west.  
For example, US 93 is pretty much the route one takes from Ely, through 
Caliente, to Las Vegas, Nevada.  About 260 miles of that is two lane road.  
It's marked as highway=trunk not because its some grand highway along the 
eastern edge of the state but because it is *the* highway along the eastern 
edge of the state.

US 95 through California (about 100 miles) is another example. Traveling from 
Las Vegas to Quartszite or Yuma, Arizona state route 95 is a good alternative 
but if a routing program insisted on Interstates one would find oneself going 
through Phoenix or Los Angeles.  Kind of a long way to go.

I should defend both highways by pointing out they don't see much cross 
traffic.  ;-)

They probably don't see much through traffic, either...

Karl
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Re: [Talk-us] Road classification

[Alan Brown]

I'm talking more the Alaska highway, or US 50 through rural Nevada - not 
driveways.  Or the Transcanadian Highway (Follow the only road.  Follow the 
only road - South Park).  Pick up any atlas; they'll show all sorts of minor 
roads in desert areas.  Of course, being a private drive or barely passable 
road is usually a reason to not show it at all.

Trunk roads and Motorways are different from primary/secondary/tertiary roads 
because it implies a certain physical description (I would not make Skyline a 
trunk road, by the way.)  In Navteq data,  there is a function road 
classification that gives the Transcanadian highway the importance as limited 
access highways in the US (sometimes higher;  some motorways are assigned FRC 2 
in their scheme, if there's a local cluster).  A motorway has significant 
physical differences that it ought to be rendered differently; but *when* it 
gets rendered is a different matter.

If you lived in Central Nunavut (I assume that's what you're implying about 
your relative importance) - maybe your place *should* show up prominently on a 
map.  Explorers getting stuck in the ice may be hungry.

-Alan




From: Karl Newman siliconfi...@gmail.com
To: Alan Brown adbrown1...@yahoo.com
Cc: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:52:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Road classification

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Alan Brown adbrown1...@yahoo.com wrote:

But - what percentage of local traffic or through traffic ends up on those 
roads?  It's relative importance that matter.  If you need to go through an 
area - what do you take?

Same concept applied to city labelling - look at a globe some time.  It's not 
unusual to see Thule, Greenland labelled, or Iqaluit, Nunavut.  Why? 
Because they're the most significant towns in the area - even though they have 
tiny populations.

On the other hand - what about San Jose, CA, 10th biggest city in the US?  They 
always label San Francisco first - even though San Jose is bigger, with a 
million people.  It's perceived importance.

-Alan (self-conscious resident of San Jose)

Just because it's locally important doesn't make it a trunk road, though. My 
driveway is locally important to me and takes 100% of traffic in and out of my 
garage...
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Re: [Talk-us] Road classification

[Chris Lawrence]

I think the place to start in the US (and I'd assume Canada too, which
tends to use US-originating classification) is the idea of functional
classification which is used by highway planners.  See e.g.
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/flex/ch03.htm and
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/fctoc.htm (the latter is incredibly
long for our purposes).  Unfortunately TIGER's scheme is theoretically
a functional classification but in practice devolves to a
designation-based scheme, which isn't very useful for mapping from
TIGER to something to be used for navigation.

Here's my rule-of-thumb:

- highway=motorway: What is referred to legally in most states as a
freeway.  A highway with no access (except at termini) except via
grade-separated interchanges - usually called full control of
access.  Typically does not have any signalized intersections,
although occasional drawbridges (e.g. the Woodrow Wilson Bridge on
I-95/495 near Washington) or railway crossings may not disqualify the
route.  Virtually all of the Interstate system counts, but there are
exceptions.  (I-180 in Wyoming -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_180_(Wyoming) - is the most
prominent example of a non-freeway Interstate.)  Routes without
Interstate shields also can qualify (e.g. CA 91 and CA 60 in the LA
area, most of US 78 in Mississippi and Alabama, US 59 through
Houston).  In most US states, freeway is a legal designation not
unlike the motorway rules in the UK and Ireland (freeway
ends/entrance/begins is usually only signed in a few states, most
notably California, but many states post a sign listing their state's
freeway restrictions when entering a freeway).

- highway=trunk.  Referred to in many states as an expressway.  A
highway typically with limited access by adjoining property owners,
but access via both at-grade intersections and grade-separated
interchanges.  Systems like the Mississippi Four-Lane Highway Program
are often constructed to these standards (so routes like US 61 and US
82 in Mississippi qualify).  Should not be used for routes with
frequent traffic control devices (signals, four-way stops, etc.)
although an occasional traffic signal would not disqualify a route.
To borrow from Russ' example, parts of US 17 in southern New York that
haven't yet been fully upgraded to I-86 would be highway=trunk,
while sections with exclusively interchange access would be
highway=motorway.  See also US 101 between San Jose and Santa
Barbara, CA, which is a mix of expressway and freeway segments.
Most commercial maps show this distinction fairly well.

- highway=primary.  Probably the lowest-tier arterial.  Signed US
and state highways that don't fit in a higher category probably belong
here, although less important highways (state secondary routes, Texas
FM/RM roads and most spurs and loops) could be highway=secondary.
Primary routes have more signals and more adjoining property access
than a trunk route.

- highway=secondary.  High-capacity collectors.  May have a highway
designation, may have a county road number, may just be named.

- highway=tertiary.  Medium and low-capacity through collectors.
Typically do not have a highway designation (but may have a county
road number).  The lowest level of the through street network in an
area.

- highway=unclassified.  Non-through collectors; typically would be
classified as tertiary but does not (yet) connect two important
streets.  Since there is no rendering difference between
unclassified and residential it might make a difference in a
routing application but on a map it won't have undue importance.

- highway=residential.  A street that primarily provides access to
adjoining properties with limited or no through traffic.

This classification has the drawback of requiring a lot of fixing up
from TIGER and a decent level of local knowledge to decide the
corner-cases.


Chris
-- 
Website: http://www.cnlawrence.com/

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Re: [Talk-us] Road classification

[Scott Atwood]

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 11:44 AM, Chris Lawrence lordsu...@gmail.comwrote:

 - highway=trunk.  Referred to in many states as an expressway.  A
 highway typically with limited access by adjoining property owners,
 but access via both at-grade intersections and grade-separated
 interchanges.  Systems like the Mississippi Four-Lane Highway Program
 are often constructed to these standards (so routes like US 61 and US
 82 in Mississippi qualify).  Should not be used for routes with
 frequent traffic control devices (signals, four-way stops, etc.)
 although an occasional traffic signal would not disqualify a route.
 To borrow from Russ' example, parts of US 17 in southern New York that
 haven't yet been fully upgraded to I-86 would be highway=trunk,
 while sections with exclusively interchange access would be
 highway=motorway.  See also US 101 between San Jose and Santa
 Barbara, CA, which is a mix of expressway and freeway segments.
 Most commercial maps show this distinction fairly well.


For those familiar with the Santa Clara County Expressway system, most of
this system would seem to fit well as highway=trunk in your classification
scheme.   Most of these roads fall someplace in between a freeway and an
arterial.  The roads are all divided highways with at least two lanes in
each direction.  Most intersections are at-grade but some are
grade-separated.  Most access is via intersections, with some limited cases
where there is access from adjoining property owners.  There generally only
intersections with freeways, other expressways, and major arterials.
 Pedestrians are generally prohibited, but cyclists are permitted.

-Scott
-- 
Scott Atwood

Cycle tracks will abound in Utopia.  ~H.G. Wells
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