Re: [Talk-transit] West Mids Bus Routes
2009/7/1 Christoph Boehme christ...@b3e.net: Hi! Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: FYI, I'm only adding the routes in for sections where I've already verified the NaPTAN bus stops and added the route refs displayed at the stop. I it might be helpful here that I recently updated the Naptanmerger (now renamed to Novam as Brian suggested) and it now displays all nodes within the UK with naptan:AtcoCode or highway=bus_stop set. It also indicates the completeness of the tagging by using different colours. http://www.mappa-mercia.org/cgi-bin/novam.wsgi/ The current database dump is from 29/06/09 and I am currently testing a script that will apply the hourly diffs to the database. This will hopefully ready for use on the server within the next weeks. The tool now has most of its client-side functions implemented. Though, there are a couple things missing or not working properly (especially the selection/marking state of the icons on the map). You can play around with it as much as you like since no actual changes are made on the server yet. There are three hidden functions: 1. Shift+Clicking on a bus stop selects this bus stop instead of marking it for merging when another bus stop is selected at the moment. 2. Control+Clicking on images (none in the database at the moment) selects the position of the image. 3. The currently selected bus stop can be moved on the map to change its position. Cheers, Christoph ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit Very nice, can't review it in full now, since I'm away until Monday. However, I think it'd be good if you could link to the osm.org browse view for the node, or show the raw tagging so people can get an idea how it handles various tags? Also, what do the colours mean? -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] West Mids Bus Routes
Thomas Wood wrote: 2009/7/1 Christoph Boehme christ...@b3e.net: Hi! Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: FYI, I'm only adding the routes in for sections where I've already verified the NaPTAN bus stops and added the route refs displayed at the stop. I it might be helpful here that I recently updated the Naptanmerger (now renamed to Novam as Brian suggested) and it now displays all nodes within the UK with naptan:AtcoCode or highway=bus_stop set. It also indicates the completeness of the tagging by using different colours. http://www.mappa-mercia.org/cgi-bin/novam.wsgi/ The current database dump is from 29/06/09 and I am currently testing a script that will apply the hourly diffs to the database. This will hopefully ready for use on the server within the next weeks. The tool now has most of its client-side functions implemented. Though, there are a couple things missing or not working properly (especially the selection/marking state of the icons on the map). You can play around with it as much as you like since no actual changes are made on the server yet. There are three hidden functions: 1. Shift+Clicking on a bus stop selects this bus stop instead of marking it for merging when another bus stop is selected at the moment. 2. Control+Clicking on images (none in the database at the moment) selects the position of the image. 3. The currently selected bus stop can be moved on the map to change its position. Cheers, Christoph ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit Very nice, can't review it in full now, since I'm away until Monday. In case you wondered about the Internal Errors: the Waypoints and Images links are deliberately not working. I have not added verification of the uploaded data yet. Therefore, I disabled the methods. However, I think it'd be good if you could link to the osm.org browse view for the node, or show the raw tagging so people can get an idea how it handles various tags? Yes, that is a good idea. At the moment, the merge preview basically shows the original tags; it only strips the naptan: prefix. The way different tags are handled can easily be changed if needed. I have not implemented any particular suggestions that arose from the public transport tagging scheme yet. So, once decisions have been made there the editor can be updated. I also need to add a method to handle tags which are not part of the tagging scheme (discarding them silently is probably not an option). Also, what do the colours mean? blue = Naptan stop (no highway=bus_stop but a naptan:AtcoCode tag) yellow = plain OSM stop (highway=bus_stop but no naptan:AtcoCode tag) orange = Merged stop (highway=bus_stop and naptan:AtcoCode, but is still unverified or has no shelter tag set*) green = Merged and verified stop * I do not remember off the top of my head if there is another rule. I think we discussed something about route tags on the mailing list. I need to check the code to provide reliable information. Christoph ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] West Mids Bus Routes
Andy, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: Looking great. Thanks! I didn't play for more than a couple of moments so I may be missing something here, however if a stop has been merged, ie it appears to have all the right data, then there will be no wish to merge it with another stop. There could be a danger of losing data if we did? I think once a stop reaches a certain level of tagging it should perhaps be possible to disable a merge. You are right. That is one of the things that I need to do when I clean up the muddle of the map interaction code. My idea is that only plain osm and plain Naptan stops can be merged. As soon as a node has both a highway=bus_stop and a naptan:AtcoCode tag it cannot be part of a merge any more. The similar stops list accounts for this already but the map does not. Christoph ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus operator references
Peter Miller wrote: Sent: 01 July 2009 4:18 PM To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) Cc: osm; talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus operator references On 1 Jul 2009, at 14:43, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: I'm a bit confused by what are the correct bus operator references in west mids. For example, Brian is using NXWM for National Express West Midlands which would seem logical, however on the Centro website if I check at the bottom of a route number page I find that WMT is still referenced on all the timetables and operator code given as WMT not NXWM. Do be aware that two or more bus operators can share a route, often with one running during the busy periods as a commercial service and another being paid under contract to run services at quieter times (evenings and weekends for example). Also be aware that you are using the term 'route' to cover all the roads that a service with a particular service number uses. In Transmodel it is refined a bit with a number of different terms. It would make the professional community very happy, and might work better in the longer term for OSM to reflect on their modelling and terminology for a few minutes. In the following text I will use Capitalised words for Transmodel concepts. In Transmodel a Line is a thing with a pubic facing code (ie 11C, 71, 105 etc) - so what you call a route is what Transmodel calls a Line. Transmodel uses the term Route to mean a unique ambiguous path through the transport infrastructure (road or rail) taken in whole or part by a vehicle operating on a Line. There will normally be two or more Routes per Line (in opposite directions for starters and then possibly various detours). At some point we are going to want this information in addition to the correct collected data in the route relations. It then defines a Service Pattern as a unique sequence of Stop Points that a vehicle calls at while it goes along a Route (it may not stop at all Stop Points it passes on the route). There can be more that one Service Pattern for one Route, normally due to short working. Timing Patterns are defined giving the interval of time between Stop Points and are associated with a Service Pattern. There can be more that one Timing Pattern per Service Pattern. In the rush hour more time is allowed for completion of the route than during off-peak times. Vehicle Journeys then run on a Timing Pattern (which have an associated Service Pattern and hence Route and Line) at particular times. Each Vehicle Journey is associated with an operator (allowing a Line to be shared between multiple operators). The Vehicle Journey only needs a start time, set of days and data range and Timing Pattern and everything else can be worked out from the Timing Pattern and associated Service pattern and Line. It is pretty clever general and normalises out repetitive data (such as Service Pattern and Route) while allowing all situations to be accommodated. Sorry for the rant / brain-dump, but it is something that I have wanted to raise for a while now. It may be useful to use the Route relations to mean what Transmodel means by a Route (a unique path through the network) and then wrap those Route relations up into a Line Relation. Anyway, something to think about. Nothing to stop someone adding separate relations for each service and indeed I think its likely we will go that way where there is confusion. Its easier to make two relations than to try and understand multiple services. For now it's a case of one step at a time though. The vast majority of folks will never get as far as Brian, Christoph and I if its any more complicated than it already is anyway, in fact its probably too complicated already when you consider overlapping relations. So, maybe over to the transport professionals to add the stuff they might want separately? The route relation has been in standing since relations came about, so its unlikely we will see it give way to an alternative naming method (eg line), but I agree it may become confusing when routing algorithm routes are different to relation routes. Mostly though I think we generally understand the context differences, so unlikely there is an issue within OSM. Easy enough to add a transmodel=line tag anyway if that's needed. Cheers Andy Regards, Peter Any ideas, I think this crops up with other operators too. Cheers Andy ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] West Mids Bus Routes
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com wrote: Bus routes are appearing nicely now on: http://www.mappa-mercia.org/public-transport-map.shtml Wow! I'm jealous. I'd love to have something like this for Manchester. Here, the bus routes are so maddeningly confusing (multiple operators with different fare structures, and routes that seem to change monthly) that this kind of map would be really useful. I'm not even going to begin to attempt to map the bus routes though (although I might do the 3 free inner-city bus routes). Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
[Talk-transit] East Coast Main Line
Is it too soon to add operator=uk_government to http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4330149? :-) Frankie (P.S there doesn't seem to be a relation that covers the route yet). -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus operator references
In message !!AAAuAOKaD4mR3JBOrEpRon92nMgBANp/H2q5kHF ivkmsnziqazabxjaaabausnwhbbsxrjctfdkbi0tdaqaaa...@googlemail.com Andy Robinson \(blackadder-lists\) ajrli...@googlemail.com wrote: Brian Prangle [mailto:bpran...@googlemail.com] wrote: Sent: 01 July 2009 5:22 PM To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus operator references Andy You need to get up to date! ;-) It's not me that needs to get up to date then ;-) it's the Network West Midlands (aka Centro in this case) Website. For example: http://timetables.centro.org.uk/showtimetable.asp?file=2_a\11AWMT#11C Operator details are at the bottom and the version 3 is dated May 09. I was hoping our Transport friends might be able to enlighten us. It would be a full time job to adjust the codes for every take over and rebranding. So where codes are well known by the public they tend to remain in use for some time. I think we will soon have a new code for NXEC! -- Peter J Stoner UK Regional Coordinator Traveline www.travelinedata.org.uk follow us @traveline on Twitter a trading name of Intelligent Travel Solutions Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] East Coast Main Line
It's not until later this year until the route will come under the government arm. What about the trains on the East Coast Route that go to Glasgow (via Motherwell), Aberdeen, and Inverness (i.e. North/West of Edinburgh). Should those tails be added to the route too, or a separate relation? Shaun On 1 Jul 2009, at 18:09, Frankie Roberto wrote: Is it too soon to add operator=uk_government to http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4330149? :-) Frankie (P.S there doesn't seem to be a relation that covers the route yet). -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] East Coast Main Line
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Shaun McDonald sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.ukwrote: It's not until later this year until the route will come under the government arm. Yeah, I was joking. It's a little premature. Still, I wonder what the operator name should be? uk_government? Or operator=nationalised? What about the trains on the East Coast Route that go to Glasgow (via Motherwell), Aberdeen, and Inverness (i.e. North/West of Edinburgh). Should those tails be added to the route too, or a separate relation? This is where the relation type=route gets a little fuzzy. Are we representing a service pattern, or a franchise, or a named rail corridor? This has confused me recently when tagging heritage railways ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_Kingdom_Independent_and_minor_railways). For instance on the Mid Norfolk railway ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/165383), should name=Mid Norfolk Railway be present on the relation, the ways, or both? Frankie Shaun On 1 Jul 2009, at 18:09, Frankie Roberto wrote: Is it too soon to add operator=uk_government to http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4330149? :-) Frankie (P.S there doesn't seem to be a relation that covers the route yet). -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] West Mids Bus Routes
Hi, Bus routes are appearing nicely now on: http://www.mappa-mercia.org/public-transport-map.shtml Wow! I'm jealous. I'd love to have something like this for Manchester. Here, the bus routes are so maddeningly confusing (multiple operators with different fare structures, and routes that seem to change monthly) that this kind of map would be really useful. I'm not even going to begin to attempt to map the bus routes though (although I might do the 3 free inner-city bus routes). I would encourage you to map these routes. Someone needs to do the first step and I think there will be someone who continues your work if he sees the results or the objects in the database. The map available for the whole europe, so you will se the results in the same way as in Birmingham: http://www.xn--pnvkarte-m4a.de/?zoom=13lat=53.48074lon=-2.24051 regards, Melchior ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] West Mids Bus Routes
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 7:27 PM, Melchior Moos melchiorm...@gmail.comwrote: I would encourage you to map these routes. Someone needs to do the first step and I think there will be someone who continues your work if he sees the results or the objects in the database. The map available for the whole europe, so you will se the results in the same way as in Birmingham: http://www.xn--pnvkarte-m4a.de/?zoom=13lat=53.48074lon=-2.24051 How do you start? Honestly, the information on the ground at bus stops is so poor it's completely useless. Getting on a bus is like rolling a dice (which determines where you'll end up, as well as how much you'll pay). Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] West Mids Bus Routes
Melchior Moos melchiorm...@gmail.com schrieb: Hi, Bus routes are appearing nicely now on: http://www.mappa-mercia.org/public-transport-map.shtml Wow! I'm jealous. I'd love to have something like this for Manchester. Here, the bus routes are so maddeningly confusing (multiple operators with different fare structures, and routes that seem to change monthly) that this kind of map would be really useful. I'm not even going to begin to attempt to map the bus routes though (although I might do the 3 free inner-city bus routes). I would encourage you to map these routes. Someone needs to do the first step and I think there will be someone who continues your work if he sees the results or the objects in the database. The map available for the whole europe, so you will se the results in the same way as in Birmingham: http://www.xn--pnvkarte-m4a.de/?zoom=13lat=53.48074lon=-2.24051 regards, Melchior Yes, Melchior deserves the kudos for making the public transport map! We merely display his great map on Mappa Mercia. Christoph ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
