Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

2020-01-01 Thread Zeke Farwell 
This looks like something that there still is not consensus on.

Here are couple of roads that are not plowed in the winter in my area of
Vermont.  Both are tagged differently:
Lincoln Gap Road: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/19729533
VT 108 through Smugglers Notch: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/48775843

Looks like we have a few different overlapping keys:

   - access:conditional
   

   - seasonal
   
   - winter_service
   

winter_service=no looks like the simplest option to me, but not knowing how
the data will be used, the safest bet is probably to put  *"closed in
winter"* right in the name as is the case with VT 108.  It's not correct
data modeling, but it will mean people looking at a map are sure to see it.


On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 10:10 PM Bill Ricker  wrote:

>
> > Burlington Family Rescued After GPS Leads Minivan Down Snowmobile Path.
> BURLINGTON (CBS)
> > It was an early morning rescue by ATV Sunday in Jefferson, New Hampshire.
> > ... The family was stranded on Jefferson Notch Road, which is restricted
> to snowmobiles only during the winter months.
> > 2 days ago
> >
> https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/12/29/burlington-family-stranded-after-following-gps-onto-snowmobile-trail
>
> Yeah, I'm not surprised that a road that goes literally through Jefferson
> Notch isn't plowed in the winter; the road's high point in the notch (aka
> "col" or "saddle," the diminutive of "pass") is 3,009 feet (917 m), only
> barely below the height of Mount Mitten (929 m) which the road passes, and
> lower than Currier Mtn (838 m) just beyond.  Yeah that's not high in young
> mountains, but at this latitude, that altitude gets plenty snow. I expect
> even the winter snowmobile path through the notch should be attempted only
> by parties of multiple experienced operators prepared for mountains'
> changeable conditions.
>
> (I'm guessing the gating/bollards will get upgraded so that only
> snowmobiles, Cats, and emergency 4WD/6WD even /can/ enter during winter.)
>
> In the summer, this road will provide a lovely if challenging shortcut
> between US 2 and US 302, of which there are precious few in the environs of
> Mt Washington and the Presidential Range of the White Mountains.
>
> OSM - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/18846225#map=12/44.3103/-71.3696
> Our way does not (as of this writing) show a tag indicating seasonally
> variable access.
> Proposed tag winter_service=no
> 
> isn't quite strong enough but would be a start.
>
> What is the right way to tag a road which is 3 season dramatic automobile
> mountain short-cut and one-season snowmobile trail?
>
>
> --
> Bill Ricker
> bill.n1...@gmail.com
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
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>
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Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

2020-01-01 Thread Tod Fitch 
In the California Sierra Nevada I tagged a couple of roads with:

conditional:access=“no @ (Nov-May)”
note=“Seasonal closure from first snow until spring, see CalTrans website for 
status”
website=“http://www.dot.ca.gov/cgi-bin/roads.cgi”

With the barrier=gate at either end of the seasonal section tagged with the 
same conditional:access and note tags.

In retrospect, I probably should have used a description tag rather than a note 
tag for the descriptive text.

—Tod

> On Jan 1, 2020, at 7:08 PM, Bill Ricker  wrote:
> 
> 
> > Burlington Family Rescued After GPS Leads Minivan Down Snowmobile Path. 
> > BURLINGTON (CBS)
> > It was an early morning rescue by ATV Sunday in Jefferson, New Hampshire.
> > ... The family was stranded on Jefferson Notch Road, which is restricted to 
> > snowmobiles only during the winter months.
> > 2 days ago
> > https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/12/29/burlington-family-stranded-after-following-gps-onto-snowmobile-trail
> >  
> > 
> 
> Yeah, I'm not surprised that a road that goes literally through Jefferson 
> Notch isn't plowed in the winter; the road's high point in the notch (aka 
> "col" or "saddle," the diminutive of "pass") is 3,009 feet (917 m), only 
> barely below the height of Mount Mitten (929 m) which the road passes, and 
> lower than Currier Mtn (838 m) just beyond.  Yeah that's not high in young 
> mountains, but at this latitude, that altitude gets plenty snow. I expect 
> even the winter snowmobile path through the notch should be attempted only by 
> parties of multiple experienced operators prepared for mountains' changeable 
> conditions.
> 
> (I'm guessing the gating/bollards will get upgraded so that only snowmobiles, 
> Cats, and emergency 4WD/6WD even /can/ enter during winter.)
> 
> In the summer, this road will provide a lovely if challenging shortcut 
> between US 2 and US 302, of which there are precious few in the environs of 
> Mt Washington and the Presidential Range of the White Mountains.
> 
> OSM - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/18846225#map=12/44.3103/-71.3696 
> 
> Our way does not (as of this writing) show a tag indicating seasonally 
> variable access.
> Proposed tag winter_service <>=no 
> 
>  isn't quite strong enough but would be a start.
> 
> What is the right way to tag a road which is 3 season dramatic automobile 
> mountain short-cut and one-season snowmobile trail?
> 
> 
> --
> Bill Ricker
> bill.n1...@gmail.com 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux 
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
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[Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

2020-01-01 Thread Bill Ricker 
> Burlington Family Rescued After GPS Leads Minivan Down Snowmobile Path.
BURLINGTON (CBS)
> It was an early morning rescue by ATV Sunday in Jefferson, New Hampshire.
> ... The family was stranded on Jefferson Notch Road, which is restricted
to snowmobiles only during the winter months.
> 2 days ago
>
https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/12/29/burlington-family-stranded-after-following-gps-onto-snowmobile-trail

Yeah, I'm not surprised that a road that goes literally through Jefferson
Notch isn't plowed in the winter; the road's high point in the notch (aka
"col" or "saddle," the diminutive of "pass") is 3,009 feet (917 m), only
barely below the height of Mount Mitten (929 m) which the road passes, and
lower than Currier Mtn (838 m) just beyond.  Yeah that's not high in young
mountains, but at this latitude, that altitude gets plenty snow. I expect
even the winter snowmobile path through the notch should be attempted only
by parties of multiple experienced operators prepared for mountains'
changeable conditions.

(I'm guessing the gating/bollards will get upgraded so that only
snowmobiles, Cats, and emergency 4WD/6WD even /can/ enter during winter.)

In the summer, this road will provide a lovely if challenging shortcut
between US 2 and US 302, of which there are precious few in the environs of
Mt Washington and the Presidential Range of the White Mountains.

OSM - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/18846225#map=12/44.3103/-71.3696
Our way does not (as of this writing) show a tag indicating seasonally
variable access.
Proposed tag winter_service=no

isn't quite strong enough but would be a start.

What is the right way to tag a road which is 3 season dramatic automobile
mountain short-cut and one-season snowmobile trail?


-- 
Bill Ricker
bill.n1...@gmail.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
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Re: [Talk-us] Wilderness areas separate from forest?

2020-01-01 Thread Kevin Kenny 
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 3:41 PM Eric H. Christensen via Talk-us
 wrote:
> Sorry for the late entry to the discussion but I did have a little 
> information to add here.
>
> Wilderness, at least at the federal level, enjoys a different protection from 
> that of a national forest.  There is to be no development or tree harvesting 
> in such areas and even wildfire management may be different.  I wouldn't 
> necessarily start combining the two together as they are managed differently 
> and have different purposes and landuse protections.

Nobody's proposing that they just be combined.  The wilderness area is
still "part of" the National Forest; it will be mapped separately, but
will not be cut out of the National Forest boundary.

We've done things that way for non-Federal wilderness areas in New
York for quite a while now.  For example, the Indian Head Wilderness
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6365026 is mapped, and is not
cut out of the larger Catskill Park
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6265477 because the Indian Head
Wilderness is a part of the Catskill Park.

To map the Catskill Park as being, "the designated area of the
Catskill Park. minus the State-designated Wilderness, Wild Forest, and
Primitive Areas, the New York City Watershed Recreation Areas, the
state campgrounds, the Catskill Visitor Center, the Catskill Center
for Conservation and Development, the Nature Conservancy and Open
Space Institute reserves, and the Belleayre Ski Center (and I'm
probably forgetting a few other more-protected areas)" would be pretty
nonsensical. I think data consumers have to be prepared to deal with
the fact that national parks and other large reserves will have parts
that have a different protection class from the default for the
reserve as a whole.

This practice is also consistent with IUCN recommendations: see
https://portals.iucn.org/library/sites/library/files/documents/PAG-021.pdf
pp 36-38. "Can a protected area contain more than one category?" which
specifically contemplates that management zones within a larger
protected area should acquire their own protection class when they are
clearly mapped, recognized in law or by other effective means, have
unambiguous management aims that are distinct from those of the larger
protected area taken as a whole, and are of significant extent. A
wilderness area within a National Forest satisfies all of these
conditions. Moreover, the same section of the guidelines specifically
warns that a data model must guard against overcounting when using
such 'nested' areas for statistical analysis.

-- 
73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin

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