Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[stevea]

Albert Pundt  wrote:
> It seems another editor by the name of Fluffy89502 is going around doing 
> similar edits all over the US, even demoting divided, multi-lane roads. Other 
> users have commented on his changesets and he cites the wiki's wording.

Ugh, I don't like to complain about specific Contributors, but for Fluffy89502, 
I'll make an exception.  He seems to be based out of the Greater Los Angeles 
area (based on what appears to be decent work under the same name in Wikipedia) 
and changes road classifications in a way that makes it sound like a religious 
sermon (based on some federal standard, which to me seems both obscure and 
not-living-in-this-reality).  He also made an unholy mess out of landuse around 
the Mojave Desert with landuse=heath in a way that was more like "pollution" 
instead of "vandalism."  His changeset comments are MOST unhelpful, being very 
generic like "landuse" (and that's all he wrote).

I have written to him several (many?) times in changeset comments and via 
missive, yet I think I've only received two responses, both rather curt and 
smug.  One was "I guess I better not do that anymore" (after I admonished him 
for vast natural=heath and natural=scrub messes that I redacted) — and then he 
went right ahead and started doing it again, the other was a sort of 
chapter-and-verse "sermon" on how certain (obscure) federal highway standards 
"absolutely" apply on roads I frequently drive (no, they don't).

He'll only map something if it renders:  he's much more interested in "seeing" 
his work than he is in getting it right.

I'm very heartened to see the greater community talking about "problem editors" 
in a larger (and louder) context.  While I'm no fan of edit wars, let's keep up 
the vigilance and good work to remain as civil as we can with these folks.  
Sometimes, with patience and a sort of 
mentoring-while-not-appearing-to-be-mentoring, they can be shaped into great 
contributors, other times, they are stubborn and don't really belong in our 
project.

SteveA
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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Jmapb]

On 9/28/2020 10:10 PM, Albert Pundt wrote:

It seems another editor by the name of Fluffy89502 is going around
doing similar edits all over the US, even demoting divided, multi-lane
roads. Other users have commented on his changesets and he cites the
wiki's wording.


Yeah when I saw this topic I assumed it was going to be about Fluffy.
Very different attitude than "floridaeditor" though, see
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88278035

J


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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Sep 29, 2020, 11:15 by burke...@gmail.com:

> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 2:35 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us
>  wrote:
>
>>
>> 29 wrz 2020, 02:02 od b...@mapwise.com:
>>
>> An example unhelpful comment:
>>
>>  "YES GEORGIA IS BADLY-TAGGED TRUNK FREE! Control is provided by 
>> floridaeditor; i.e., if anybody tries to change one back I will review the 
>> edit and keep/revert as needed."
>>
>> WTF
>>
>> Brian aka grouper
>>
>> Can you link to changeset where it happened?
>>
>> This alone is enough to involve DWG
>> and I would expect at least 0-time block
>> (message displayed on login).
>>
>
> Mateusz,
>
> The specific one that Brian quoted is here:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/87987046
>
Thanks! It is quite old and I see that at that time DWG already contacted
that person, so for now I just left a message asking to
cease making such comments .

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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Jack Burke]

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 2:35 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us
 wrote:
>
> 29 wrz 2020, 02:02 od b...@mapwise.com:
>
> An example unhelpful comment:
>
> "YES GEORGIA IS BADLY-TAGGED TRUNK FREE! Control is provided by 
> floridaeditor; i.e., if anybody tries to change one back I will review the 
> edit and keep/revert as needed."
>
> WTF
>
> Brian aka grouper
>
> Can you link to changeset where it happened?
>
> This alone is enough to involve DWG
> and I would expect at least 0-time block
> (message displayed on login).

Mateusz,

The specific one that Brian quoted is here:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/87987046

--jack

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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

29 wrz 2020, 02:02 od b...@mapwise.com:
> An example unhelpful comment:
>
>     "> YES GEORGIA IS BADLY-TAGGED TRUNKFREE! Control is provided 
> by floridaeditor; i.e., if anybodytries to change one back I will 
> review the edit and keep/revertas needed."
>
> WTF
>
> Brian aka grouper
>
Can you link to changeset where it happened?

This alone is enough to involve DWG
and I would expect at least 0-time block
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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Albert Pundt]

It seems another editor by the name of Fluffy89502 is going around doing
similar edits all over the US, even demoting divided, multi-lane roads.
Other users have commented on his changesets and he cites the wiki's
wording.

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 8:54 PM Mike N  wrote:

> Based on some likely Wiki-Fiddling, I'd like to see the Trunk road
> comments about the US tagging cleaned up to match reality.   (I realize
> that is harder than just reverting to a previous point in time).
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Mike N]

Based on some likely Wiki-Fiddling, I'd like to see the Trunk road 
comments about the US tagging cleaned up to match reality.   (I realize 
that is harder than just reverting to a previous point in time).




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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Jack Burke]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 8:02 PM Brian May  wrote:
>
> I'm Florida based, have seen Floridaeditor's changes and noticed an eagerness 
> to change a lot of road classifications. I didn't pay a lot of attention 
> until now. Of course, trunk can be a tricky one, but if you got one lone guy 
> on a mission who is arguing with everyone along the path, reverting any 
> differences of opinion, etc - that is getting abusive and needs to stop. It 
> is certainly NE2ish behavior. Other than NE2s behavior towards people who 
> didn't agree and subsequent banning, he taught me a good bit, did a lot of 
> good for FL and was actually inspirational in the beginning of my OSM journey 
> showing what was possible and the impact a prolific editor could have. Sucks 
> that he couldn't play well with others. Pretty sure he was based out of 
> Orlando. Floridaeditor started editing in the Melbourne area not far from 
> Orlando. His editing behavior is somewhat similar to NE2 in that they are / 
> was editing a fairly wide variety of feature types. Also a focus on highway 
> types in many other states and forcefully arguing with others in other states 
> / local stomping grounds.
>
> Anywho, seems like collective wisdom should rule the day with most things 
> OSM, right? Especially long-time editors who have been through the wilderness 
> and put a lot of thought into how features be mapped and tagged. And 
> importantly are engaging with others in a respectful way.
>
> An example unhelpful comment:
>
> "YES GEORGIA IS BADLY-TAGGED TRUNK FREE! Control is provided by 
> floridaeditor; i.e., if anybody tries to change one back I will review the 
> edit and keep/revert as needed."
>
> WTF
>
> Brian aka grouper

That is one of several of his comments that convinces me he doesn't
really want to work with the community.


> On 9/28/2020 7:29 PM, Evin Fairchild wrote:
>
> I totally support reverting Floridaeditor's changes in order to restore all 
> these divided highways to trunk status. I believe that floridaeditor has been 
> given the opportunity to participate in this discussion, right?

He has been invited here, to Slack, and the OSM web forum by no less
than 3 different people (and maybe more--I haven't examined all of his
changesets).

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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Brian May]

I'm Florida based, have seen Floridaeditor's changes and noticed an 
eagerness to change a lot of road classifications. I didn't pay a lot of 
attention until now. Of course, trunk can be a tricky one, but if you 
got one lone guy on a mission who is arguing with everyone along the 
path, reverting any differences of opinion, etc - that is getting 
abusive and needs to stop. It is certainly NE2ish behavior. Other than 
NE2s behavior towards people who didn't agree and subsequent banning, he 
taught me a good bit, did a lot of good for FL and was actually 
inspirational in the beginning of my OSM journey showing what was 
possible and the impact a prolific editor could have. Sucks that he 
couldn't play well with others. Pretty sure he was based out of Orlando. 
Floridaeditor started editing in the Melbourne area not far from 
Orlando. His editing behavior is somewhat similar to NE2 in that they 
are / was editing a fairly wide variety of feature types. Also a focus 
on highway types in many other states and forcefully arguing with others 
in other states / local stomping grounds.


Anywho, seems like collective wisdom should rule the day with most 
things OSM, right? Especially long-time editors who have been through 
the wilderness and put a lot of thought into how features be mapped and 
tagged. And importantly are engaging with others in a respectful way.


An example unhelpful comment:

    "YES GEORGIA IS BADLY-TAGGED TRUNK FREE! Control is provided by 
floridaeditor; i.e., if anybody tries to change one back I will review 
the edit and keep/revert as needed."


WTF

Brian aka grouper

On 9/28/2020 7:29 PM, Evin Fairchild wrote:
I totally support reverting Floridaeditor's changes in order to 
restore all these divided highways to trunk status. I believe that 
floridaeditor has been given the opportunity to participate in this 
discussion, right?


On Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 3:54 PM Jack Burke > wrote:


On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 3:15 PM Evin Fairchild
mailto:evindf...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> We've always tagged non interstate freeways as motorways. They
are often designed to interstate standards and there is literally
no distinction between them and interstate freeways except that
there's no interstate shield.
>
> As for Floridaeditor's edits, I noticed him doing this awhile
ago, but didn't really feel like doing anything. Glad someone is
sending him and trying to get this resolved. Many of his
downgrading from Trump to primary were completely unjustified.


Throughout this entire discussion, it sounds like there's pretty good
agreement that trunk is perfectly acceptable to use as a road
classification in OSM for the eastern US, and at least some general
agreement that the examples I cited are reasonable examples of trunk
roads?  Am I mis-interpreting anyone?

And also, that I'm not the only one who's very much disturbed by
floridaeditor's changes?

Does anyone have a strong problem if I continue going through Georgia
and reversing most of his trunk-to-primary changes?

--jack


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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Evin Fairchild]

I totally support reverting Floridaeditor's changes in order to restore all
these divided highways to trunk status. I believe that floridaeditor has
been given the opportunity to participate in this discussion, right?

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 3:54 PM Jack Burke  wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 3:15 PM Evin Fairchild 
> wrote:
> >
> > We've always tagged non interstate freeways as motorways. They are often
> designed to interstate standards and there is literally no distinction
> between them and interstate freeways except that there's no interstate
> shield.
> >
> > As for Floridaeditor's edits, I noticed him doing this awhile ago, but
> didn't really feel like doing anything. Glad someone is sending him and
> trying to get this resolved. Many of his downgrading from Trump to primary
> were completely unjustified.
>
>
> Throughout this entire discussion, it sounds like there's pretty good
> agreement that trunk is perfectly acceptable to use as a road
> classification in OSM for the eastern US, and at least some general
> agreement that the examples I cited are reasonable examples of trunk
> roads?  Am I mis-interpreting anyone?
>
> And also, that I'm not the only one who's very much disturbed by
> floridaeditor's changes?
>
> Does anyone have a strong problem if I continue going through Georgia
> and reversing most of his trunk-to-primary changes?
>
> --jack
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Jack Burke]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 3:15 PM Evin Fairchild  wrote:
>
> We've always tagged non interstate freeways as motorways. They are often 
> designed to interstate standards and there is literally no distinction 
> between them and interstate freeways except that there's no interstate shield.
>
> As for Floridaeditor's edits, I noticed him doing this awhile ago, but didn't 
> really feel like doing anything. Glad someone is sending him and trying to 
> get this resolved. Many of his downgrading from Trump to primary were 
> completely unjustified.


Throughout this entire discussion, it sounds like there's pretty good
agreement that trunk is perfectly acceptable to use as a road
classification in OSM for the eastern US, and at least some general
agreement that the examples I cited are reasonable examples of trunk
roads?  Am I mis-interpreting anyone?

And also, that I'm not the only one who's very much disturbed by
floridaeditor's changes?

Does anyone have a strong problem if I continue going through Georgia
and reversing most of his trunk-to-primary changes?

--jack

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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Evin Fairchild]

Oh lol, I didn't even realize my phone autocorrected trunk to Trump. Oops!
xD

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 12:21 PM Kevin Kenny  wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 3:15 PM Evin Fairchild 
> wrote:
> > Many of his downgrading from Trump to primary were completely
> unjustified.
>
> Oh, $LC_DEITY, autocorrupt in 2020!  (I'd have loved to have
> downgraded Trump in the primary, but this year he was unopposed.)
>
> Yeah, I know, you meant 'trunk'.
> --
> 73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Kevin Kenny]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 3:15 PM Evin Fairchild  wrote:
> Many of his downgrading from Trump to primary were completely unjustified.

Oh, $LC_DEITY, autocorrupt in 2020!  (I'd have loved to have
downgraded Trump in the primary, but this year he was unopposed.)

Yeah, I know, you meant 'trunk'.
-- 
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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Evin Fairchild]

We've always tagged non interstate freeways as motorways. They are often
designed to interstate standards and there is literally no distinction
between them and interstate freeways except that there's no interstate
shield.

As for Floridaeditor's edits, I noticed him doing this awhile ago, but
didn't really feel like doing anything. Glad someone is sending him and
trying to get this resolved. Many of his downgrading from Trump to primary
were completely unjustified.

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 11:57 AM Matthew Woehlke 
wrote:

> On 28/09/2020 12.27, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 11:07 AM Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> >> On 28/09/2020 11.42, Jack Burke wrote:
> >>> I'm willing to bet that most OSM editors who drive on either of those
> two
> >>> will think "this is a great freeway, just with occasional traffic
> >> signals."
> >>
> >> That's an oxymoron. Freeways are, by definition, limited access (no
> >> crossing intersections, period) and do not have (permanent¹) signs or
> >> signals to halt traffic. IMNSHO, if it has traffic lights, stop signs,
> >> or the possibility of vehicles suddenly driving *across* the way, it
> >> isn't a freeway.
> >
> > True, but highway=trunk can mean either expressways (think like freeways
> > that have some or all at-grade intersections; note that having
> > freeway-style ramps in between junctions doesn't make it a
> > highway=motorway), or single-carriageway freeways.  In both cases, they
> > tend to get built as an incremental case to building a full motorway, but
> > are not yet motorways.
>
> We're getting dangerously into the territory of words with ambiguous
> meanings. Note https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/freeway, especially the
> first definition. Note also my point was about "freeways", not
> highway=trunk. Many in the US would consider "freeway" and
> highway=motorway to be nearly synonymous. (The "nearly" is when we start
> talking about non-interstate limited access.)
>
> I did later state that limited access is *not* a requirement for
> highway=trunk.
>
> Also, Jack has clarified his usage as "artistic"...
>
> > That's not to say there aren't non-interstate highways that meet these
> >> definitions.
> >>
> >> But... is it a highway=trunk? *I* don't see where the wiki excludes the
> >> possibility. (It does, however, seem to me that only *actual* interstate
> >> freeways should be highway=motorway in the US.)
> >
> > That's not true at all...
>
> Citation needed. I don't think that's been established (although we're
> getting pretty off-topic...). The *converse*, sure (interstate =/>
> motorway), I'll concede that.
>
> > [...] the transitions to where an interstate ends and it continues as
> > another kind of highway past the last exit before a junction,
> I would question whether those should be highway=motorway. (Yes, I'm
> looking at https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/98245488 and surrounding,
> possibly as far north as https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/41485037.)
>
> --
> Matthew
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Richard Welty]

On 9/28/20 12:39 PM, Jack Burke wrote:

> Related: if it's I-## or I-###, shouldn't it be a highway=motorway,
> period? (Unless those, for some reason, are ever *not* freeways?)

in the lower 48, most of the time an Interstate designation is a
motorway. but there can be exceptions. and in Alaska and Hawaii, the
roads have to be examined on a case by case basis. congress choose to
give those two states latitude so they could get funds from the program
even though they were unlikely to actually build real "motorways".

richard
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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Kevin Kenny]

1. I agree with Paul that the US definitely does have trunk roads.
High-speed dual carriageways with some grade crossings, or 'super
twos,' both qualify. (See (3) for the counterargument about
'importance to the highway network.')

2. The network and route number do not reliably identify the highway
class. New York has unnumbered roads, state highways, and US highways,
that are definitely freeways, There is at least one section of
Interstate that is not a freeway, but rather a 'super two'. US
Highways can be anything from unclassified or tertiary (there are some
US highways that the world has bypassed, but retain the designation
for historical reasons) to freeway. New York's numbered state highways
all appear to be at least secondary, but some are primaries, trunks or
motorways.

3. While the 'highway=*' designation is supposed to denote 'importance
to the highway system', the road characteristics (surface, lanes,
speed limit, ...) are useful surrogates. Highway administrators who
commission multi-lane divided highways that don't provide a major
connection in the network, or elevate crossings on low-traffic roads,
tend to get tarred and feathered by the taxpayers, so the road
characteristics tend to provide a lower bound on the highway class.
It's not a hard upper bound; in some rural areas, a tertiary or even
secondary road may well be narrow and lack a hard surface, simply
because that's what the traffic demands and the community will
support. It's also not an infallible guide, particularly in urban
areas; a city street may be six or eight lanes wide in a congested
area without necessarily having a key role in the network.

4. The official designation of the road's importance is tremendously
influenced by politics. Nevertheless, that designation determines
highway funding, which in turn determines the quality of the road,
which in turn ought to determine routing precedence, so in the end,
even if the official designation doesn't make sense, a designated
'trunk' road will likely be built to support more traffic and a higher
speed than a 'tertiary' one.

5. This isn't the first edit war on the subject.

Some more details follow.

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 12:08 PM Matthew Woehlke
 wrote:
>
> On 28/09/2020 11.42, Jack Burke wrote:
> > I'm willing to bet that most OSM editors who drive on either of those two
> > will think "this is a great freeway, just with occasional traffic signals."
>
> That's an oxymoron. Freeways are, by definition, limited access (no
> crossing intersections, period) and do not have (permanent¹) signs or
> signals to halt traffic. IMNSHO, if it has traffic lights, stop signs,
> or the possibility of vehicles suddenly driving *across* the way, it
> isn't a freeway.
>
> That's not to say there aren't non-interstate highways that meet these
> definitions.
>
> But... is it a highway=trunk? *I* don't see where the wiki excludes the
> possibility. (It does, however, seem to me that only *actual* interstate
> freeways should be highway=motorway in the US.)

I beg to differ.  NY-17 is indeed a motorway for most of its length
(east and south of Harriman, it ought to be primary) It's more-or-less
permanently unfinished between Deposit and Hancock, because the
terrain offers extremely difficult challenges to freeway-building.
Portions are, in fact, posted intermittently as 'Future I-86', but my
understanding is that it can't get that designation until and unless
the missing bit in the middle is finished.

Several of New York's state parkways, such as Southern State Parkway
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1676429, are multi-lane, dual
carriageway, access fully controlled, all crossings elevated, for
their entire length. Southern State Parkway would differ from
'Interstate' only in that: (a) the speed limit is 55 mile/hr (but all
urban freeways in Nassau and Suffolk Counties, including I-495, have
the reduced speed limit), (b) they are hgv=no, (c) they don't have
Federal interstate highway funding. It's not clear to me that any of
these attributes would make them 'not a freeway'.

Taconic Parkway is controversial.  To me, it's clearly a trunk road
from the southern terminus through I-287 (mile 2.85), with all but one
intersection at grade.  Between I-287 and Peekskill Hollow Road (mile
41.28) it drives like a freeway. All the crossings are elevated. North
of that, the crossings with major roads are mostly elevated, but local
streets typically have intersections at grade.  North of Rigor Hill
Road (mile 152.73) there are no at-grade crossings to the northern
terminus (I-90, mile 104.12). I've mostly refrained from editing this
one.  My preference would be to call it a motorway between I-287 and
Peekskill Hollow Road, and again between NY-203 and I-90, and a trunk
road in between. At one point, the locals (or the TIGER import?) had
mapped it as 'motorway' throughout, downgrading it to 'trunk' only for
a few hundred yards surrounding each at-grade intersection; I consider
the latter practice 

Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Richard Welty]

On 9/28/20 12:39 PM, Jack Burke wrote:
>   I *am* trying to say that they should be highway=trunk.  My
> use of the term "freeway" to describe them was artistic in nature, to
> describe how it feels actually driving on them.   That's all.

sometimes, such as in NYS, the formal road classification uses the term
Freeway to describe things that most of us would consider trunk.

for example, Washington Avenue Extension in Albany, NY has an extended
section with frontage roads and a limited number of grade level,
traffic light controlled intersections. in NYS DOT parlance, it is an
Urban Freeway.

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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 28/09/2020 12.27, Paul Johnson wrote:

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 11:07 AM Matthew Woehlke wrote:

On 28/09/2020 11.42, Jack Burke wrote:

I'm willing to bet that most OSM editors who drive on either of those two
will think "this is a great freeway, just with occasional traffic

signals."

That's an oxymoron. Freeways are, by definition, limited access (no
crossing intersections, period) and do not have (permanent¹) signs or
signals to halt traffic. IMNSHO, if it has traffic lights, stop signs,
or the possibility of vehicles suddenly driving *across* the way, it
isn't a freeway.


True, but highway=trunk can mean either expressways (think like freeways
that have some or all at-grade intersections; note that having
freeway-style ramps in between junctions doesn't make it a
highway=motorway), or single-carriageway freeways.  In both cases, they
tend to get built as an incremental case to building a full motorway, but
are not yet motorways.


We're getting dangerously into the territory of words with ambiguous 
meanings. Note https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/freeway, especially the 
first definition. Note also my point was about "freeways", not 
highway=trunk. Many in the US would consider "freeway" and 
highway=motorway to be nearly synonymous. (The "nearly" is when we start 
talking about non-interstate limited access.)


I did later state that limited access is *not* a requirement for 
highway=trunk.


Also, Jack has clarified his usage as "artistic"...


That's not to say there aren't non-interstate highways that meet these

definitions.

But... is it a highway=trunk? *I* don't see where the wiki excludes the
possibility. (It does, however, seem to me that only *actual* interstate
freeways should be highway=motorway in the US.)


That's not true at all...


Citation needed. I don't think that's been established (although we're 
getting pretty off-topic...). The *converse*, sure (interstate =/> 
motorway), I'll concede that.



[...] the transitions to where an interstate ends and it continues as
another kind of highway past the last exit before a junction,
I would question whether those should be highway=motorway. (Yes, I'm 
looking at https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/98245488 and surrounding, 
possibly as far north as https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/41485037.)


--
Matthew

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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Jack Burke]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 12:02 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 10:42 AM Jack Burke  wrote:
>>
>> On Monday, September 28, 2020, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>>
>> Georgia 400 is a grade-separated, divided, high-speed freeway from its 
>> southern endpoint at I 85, all the way to where it meets GA 369 near Coal 
>> Mountain, 37 miles later. From there, it's an at-grade, divided, high-speed 
>> (mostly 65mph, with short sections of 55mph in denser areas) highway with 
>> extremely long straight sections and other sections with high-speed curves, 
>> until it ends at GA 60 just outside Dahlonega, 16 miles past Coal Mountain.
>
>
> Yeah, not looking very hard at this so don't know if I missed any at-grade 
> intersections looking at Maxar/Mapbox. I'd call that a motorway pretty 
> solidly from I 85 to GA 306 and a trunk north of that to GA 60.  Looks like 
> it turns into GA 115 at GA 60, didn't trace that further but I'd call GA 60 a 
> secondary.

I would call your assessment spot-on, except with a disagreement that
the motorway should end at GA 306 (I think it's fine classified that
way all the way to GA 369).  But that really comes down to individual
preference.  I'm certainly not going to try to argue with someone over
it.  (For reference, my rational for choosing 396 is because that's
where the overhead sign is declaring "signal ahead, prepare to stop.")


>> GA 515 begins life where I 575 ends, at Ball Ground. From there, it is a 
>> grade-separated, divided, high-speed (mostly 65mph, with a few sections of 
>> 55mph, and a couple of 45mph when it passes through Ellijay and Blue Ridge) 
>> freeway that travels north to Blue Ridge, almost at the Tennessee border, 
>> where it arcs eastward and continues to Blairsville.  That's 63 miles of 
>> divided high-speed goodness. There it finally becomes an undivided highway 
>> that continues on to Young Harris, "ending" a few miles past there. GA 515 
>> was upgraded to its dual-carriageway status about 30 years ago as part of 
>> the Appalachian development highway program.
>
>
> Looking at the same imagery as above, yeah, I'd call I 575 a trunk north of 
> Howell Bridge Road and GA 515 a trunk from I 575 until the south end of Blue 
> Ridge, where the single carriageway through town is primary (it stops being 
> an expressway and becomes a boulevard for a bit), and then picks back up as 
> trunk on the north end of town before going primary again at Blairsville.

Again, spot-on, except I'd leave the undivided section through Blue
Ridge as trunk.  (Why?  Because it's so short, and is there really a
need to classify it lower there?)


>> All of these, and others, were highway=trunk until floridaeditor decided to 
>> downgrade them (and challenge anyone to change them back)
>
>
> So far it seems like floridaeditor is the exact opposite of NE2 (who smashed 
> everything in network=US:US to highway=trunk even if it's not an expressway 
> or super-two freeway, something we're still cleaning up particularly in the 
> midwest and Texas).  Given NE2 was also in Flordia, I wouldn't rule out it's 
> the same person.

I never dealt with NE2 directly, since I started after his banishment,
but I have come across a lot of his work.  Some of it I do have to
tilt my head sideways at, but there have been quite a few things he
did that I thought were pretty good.  But that notwithstanding, this
person is going the exact opposite direction with his edits.  Can they
really be the same person?

--jack

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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Jack Burke]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 1:21 PM Shawn K. Quinn  wrote:
>
> On 9/28/20 11:00, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > Given NE2 was also in Flordia, I wouldn't rule out it's the same person.
>
> I was considering the same possibility. Given he's been indefinitely
> banned from editing, if we find out it is him doing this, should the
> project consider legal action? This is rather wide-scale vandalism from
> the looks of it.

I started editing post-NE2, so I never had the pleasure of
encountering him.  If it *is* him, then he's doing the exact opposite
of what I've heard about him in terms of road classifications.  For
that reason, it just doesn't sound like him to me, but like I said, I
never worked with him, so I can't really speak to his "touch" when it
comes to how his edits look.

I was hoping someone else would come out and use the "V" word before I
did--thank you, Shawn.  It helps reassure me that I'm not way off base
with my assessment of what is going on.

--jack

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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 9/28/20 11:00, Paul Johnson wrote:
> Given NE2 was also in Flordia, I wouldn't rule out it's the same person.

I was considering the same possibility. Given he's been indefinitely
banned from editing, if we find out it is him doing this, should the
project consider legal action? This is rather wide-scale vandalism from
the looks of it.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Jack Burke]

On Monday, September 28, 2020, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 11:07 AM Matthew Woehlke 
> wrote:
>
>> On 28/09/2020 11.42, Jack Burke wrote:
>> > I'm willing to bet that most OSM editors who drive on either of those
>> two
>> > will think "this is a great freeway, just with occasional traffic
>> signals."
>>
>> That's an oxymoron. Freeways are, by definition, limited access (no
>> crossing intersections, period) and do not have (permanent¹) signs or
>> signals to halt traffic. IMNSHO, if it has traffic lights, stop signs,
>> or the possibility of vehicles suddenly driving *across* the way, it
>> isn't a freeway.
>
>
> True, but highway=trunk can mean either expressways (think like freeways
> that have some or all at-grade intersections; note that having
> freeway-style ramps in between junctions doesn't make it a
> highway=motorway), or single-carriageway freeways.  In both cases, they
> tend to get built as an incremental case to building a full motorway, but
> are not yet motorways.
>
> That's not to say there aren't non-interstate highways that meet these
>> definitions.
>>
>> But... is it a highway=trunk? *I* don't see where the wiki excludes the
>> possibility. (It does, however, seem to me that only *actual* interstate
>> freeways should be highway=motorway in the US.)
>>
>
> That's not true at all...heck, not all sections of Interstates qualify for
> highway=motorway, there's at least a couple dozen spots where this is true,
> like pretty much any customs checkpoint, the transitions to where an
> interstate ends and it continues as another kind of highway past the last
> exit before a junction,
>
>
>> Related: if it's I-## or I-###, shouldn't it be a highway=motorway,
>> period? (Unless those, for some reason, are ever *not* freeways?)
>>
>
> No.  Very much not, in fact.  Network and classification are, relative to
> the UK, quite disconnected.  Most of the Interstate network that is
> bannered as Detour (more common in disaster prone areas where getting
> around a freeway closure isn't obvious and yet happens frequently enough to
> have permanently signposted detour routes for such occasions) or Business
> tends to be trunk at most (I can think of a couple places where a Business
> Interstate runs down expressway sections that used to be US 66) but usually
> is *extremely* not a freeway (usually boulevards and two lane roads).
> Get up to Alaska and mainline interstates aren't freeways and usually
> aren't even signposted (I'd be surprised if anything outside Fairbanks and
> Anchorage warrants higher than a secondary tag realistically, but the US
> loves to creep everything upwards, overstating connectivity).  Some cities
> operate full blown freeways, some interstates are gravel barely-a-road.
>
>
Matthew and Paul, hang on!

I am *not* trying to say that the roads in question should be
highway=motorway (except for the part of Georgia 400 that is, in fact, a
motorway).  I *am* trying to say that they should be highway=trunk.  My use
of the term "freeway" to describe them was artistic in nature, to describe
how it feels actually driving on them.   That's all.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

-jack
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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 11:07 AM Matthew Woehlke 
wrote:

> On 28/09/2020 11.42, Jack Burke wrote:
> > I'm willing to bet that most OSM editors who drive on either of those two
> > will think "this is a great freeway, just with occasional traffic
> signals."
>
> That's an oxymoron. Freeways are, by definition, limited access (no
> crossing intersections, period) and do not have (permanent¹) signs or
> signals to halt traffic. IMNSHO, if it has traffic lights, stop signs,
> or the possibility of vehicles suddenly driving *across* the way, it
> isn't a freeway.


True, but highway=trunk can mean either expressways (think like freeways
that have some or all at-grade intersections; note that having
freeway-style ramps in between junctions doesn't make it a
highway=motorway), or single-carriageway freeways.  In both cases, they
tend to get built as an incremental case to building a full motorway, but
are not yet motorways.

That's not to say there aren't non-interstate highways that meet these
> definitions.
>
> But... is it a highway=trunk? *I* don't see where the wiki excludes the
> possibility. (It does, however, seem to me that only *actual* interstate
> freeways should be highway=motorway in the US.)
>

That's not true at all...heck, not all sections of Interstates qualify for
highway=motorway, there's at least a couple dozen spots where this is true,
like pretty much any customs checkpoint, the transitions to where an
interstate ends and it continues as another kind of highway past the last
exit before a junction,


> Related: if it's I-## or I-###, shouldn't it be a highway=motorway,
> period? (Unless those, for some reason, are ever *not* freeways?)
>

No.  Very much not, in fact.  Network and classification are, relative to
the UK, quite disconnected.  Most of the Interstate network that is
bannered as Detour (more common in disaster prone areas where getting
around a freeway closure isn't obvious and yet happens frequently enough to
have permanently signposted detour routes for such occasions) or Business
tends to be trunk at most (I can think of a couple places where a Business
Interstate runs down expressway sections that used to be US 66) but usually
is *extremely* not a freeway (usually boulevards and two lane roads).  Get
up to Alaska and mainline interstates aren't freeways and usually aren't
even signposted (I'd be surprised if anything outside Fairbanks and
Anchorage warrants higher than a secondary tag realistically, but the US
loves to creep everything upwards, overstating connectivity).  Some cities
operate full blown freeways, some interstates are gravel barely-a-road.
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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 28/09/2020 11.42, Jack Burke wrote:

I'm willing to bet that most OSM editors who drive on either of those two
will think "this is a great freeway, just with occasional traffic signals."


That's an oxymoron. Freeways are, by definition, limited access (no 
crossing intersections, period) and do not have (permanent¹) signs or 
signals to halt traffic. IMNSHO, if it has traffic lights, stop signs, 
or the possibility of vehicles suddenly driving *across* the way, it 
isn't a freeway.


That's not to say there aren't non-interstate highways that meet these 
definitions.


But... is it a highway=trunk? *I* don't see where the wiki excludes the 
possibility. (It does, however, seem to me that only *actual* interstate 
freeways should be highway=motorway in the US.)


Related: if it's I-## or I-###, shouldn't it be a highway=motorway, 
period? (Unless those, for some reason, are ever *not* freeways?)


(¹ In case of active construction or accidents, all bets are off.)

--
Matthew

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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 10:42 AM Jack Burke  wrote:

>
>
> On Monday, September 28, 2020, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 8:35 PM Jack Burke  wrote:
>>
>>> Recently, someone has taken it on himself to downgrade most (all?)
>>> highway=trunk roads in the eastern U.S. to just primary.  The odd
>>> thing is that the very wiki page he cites as his reason fully supports
>>> keeping them as trunk.  Many of them I'm personally familiar with, and
>>> even absent the wiki's definition, they actually make more sense as
>>> trunk from a driving perspective.
>>
>>
>> The wiki's pretty inconsistent but the generally accepted standard is
>> "it'd be a motorway if it didn't have intersections" or "it'd be a motorway
>> if it was dual carriageway".  I think some context would help.
>>
>
> How about a pair of highways that "would be motorways if they didn't have
> intersections" for context?
>
> Georgia 400 is a grade-separated, divided, high-speed freeway from its
> southern endpoint at I 85, all the way to where it meets GA 369 near Coal
> Mountain, 37 miles later. From there, it's an at-grade, divided, high-speed
> (mostly 65mph, with short sections of 55mph in denser areas) highway with
> extremely long straight sections and other sections with high-speed curves,
> until it ends at GA 60 just outside Dahlonega, 16 miles past Coal Mountain.
>

Yeah, not looking very hard at this so don't know if I missed any at-grade
intersections looking at Maxar/Mapbox. I'd call that a motorway pretty
solidly from I 85 to GA 306 and a trunk north of that to GA 60.  Looks like
it turns into GA 115 at GA 60, didn't trace that further but I'd call GA 60
a secondary.


> GA 515 begins life where I 575 ends, at Ball Ground. From there, it is a
> grade-separated, divided, high-speed (mostly 65mph, with a few sections of
> 55mph, and a couple of 45mph when it passes through Ellijay and Blue Ridge)
> freeway that travels north to Blue Ridge, almost at the Tennessee border,
> where it arcs eastward and continues to Blairsville.  That's 63 miles of
> divided high-speed goodness. There it finally becomes an undivided highway
> that continues on to Young Harris, "ending" a few miles past there. GA 515
> was upgraded to its dual-carriageway status about 30 years ago as part of
> the Appalachian development highway program.
>

Looking at the same imagery as above, yeah, I'd call I 575 a trunk north of
Howell Bridge Road and GA 515 a trunk from I 575 until the south end of
Blue Ridge, where the single carriageway through town is primary (it stops
being an expressway and becomes a boulevard for a bit), and then picks back
up as trunk on the north end of town before going primary again at
Blairsville.


> All of these, and others, were highway=trunk until floridaeditor decided
> to downgrade them (and challenge anyone to change them back)
>

So far it seems like floridaeditor is the exact opposite of NE2 (who
smashed everything in network=US:US to highway=trunk even if it's not an
expressway or super-two freeway, something we're *still* cleaning up
particularly in the midwest and Texas).  Given NE2 was also in Flordia, I
wouldn't rule out it's the same person.
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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Jack Burke]

On Monday, September 28, 2020, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 8:35 PM Jack Burke  wrote:
>
>> Recently, someone has taken it on himself to downgrade most (all?)
>> highway=trunk roads in the eastern U.S. to just primary.  The odd
>> thing is that the very wiki page he cites as his reason fully supports
>> keeping them as trunk.  Many of them I'm personally familiar with, and
>> even absent the wiki's definition, they actually make more sense as
>> trunk from a driving perspective.
>
>
> The wiki's pretty inconsistent but the generally accepted standard is
> "it'd be a motorway if it didn't have intersections" or "it'd be a motorway
> if it was dual carriageway".  I think some context would help.
>

How about a pair of highways that "would be motorways if they didn't have
intersections" for context?

Georgia 400 is a grade-separated, divided, high-speed freeway from its
southern endpoint at I 85, all the way to where it meets GA 369 near Coal
Mountain, 37 miles later. From there, it's an at-grade, divided, high-speed
(mostly 65mph, with short sections of 55mph in denser areas) highway with
extremely long straight sections and other sections with high-speed curves,
until it ends at GA 60 just outside Dahlonega, 16 miles past Coal Mountain.

GA 515 begins life where I 575 ends, at Ball Ground. From there, it is a
grade-separated, divided, high-speed (mostly 65mph, with a few sections of
55mph, and a couple of 45mph when it passes through Ellijay and Blue Ridge)
freeway that travels north to Blue Ridge, almost at the Tennessee border,
where it arcs eastward and continues to Blairsville.  That's 63 miles of
divided high-speed goodness. There it finally becomes an undivided highway
that continues on to Young Harris, "ending" a few miles past there. GA 515
was upgraded to its dual-carriageway status about 30 years ago as part of
the Appalachian development highway program.

I'm willing to bet that most OSM editors who drive on either of those two
will think "this is a great freeway, just with occasional traffic signals."

And then there's US 27/GA 1, a highway that was upgraded as part of the
GRIP initiative a bunch of years ago.  It's a north-south highway in west
Georgia that connects Chattanooga to Tallahassee. It's a mixture of divided
and undivided sections (far more divided than undivided), that switches
between 65mph (in most of the divided sections) and 55 mph (many of the
undivided sections) except when it passes through Rome and a couple of
other cities. And there are several other highways that meet this
description, too.

When all of these were upgraded to their current configuration, they were
built specifically to provide smooth, high-speed highway access to more
rural areas of the state, with the possibility of being upgraded further to
Interstate-level one day (think the new I 22).

All of these, and others, were highway=trunk until floridaeditor decided to
downgrade them (and challenge anyone to change them back).

Does that help any, Paul?

-jack
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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Paul Johnson]

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 8:35 PM Jack Burke  wrote:

> Recently, someone has taken it on himself to downgrade most (all?)
> highway=trunk roads in the eastern U.S. to just primary.  The odd
> thing is that the very wiki page he cites as his reason fully supports
> keeping them as trunk.  Many of them I'm personally familiar with, and
> even absent the wiki's definition, they actually make more sense as
> trunk from a driving perspective.


The wiki's pretty inconsistent but the generally accepted standard is "it'd
be a motorway if it didn't have intersections" or "it'd be a motorway if it
was dual carriageway".  I think some context would help.
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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Mike N]

On 9/27/2020 11:22 PM, Jack Burke wrote:

I'm on Slack, and I originally posted a comment about this editor on
some roads in Florida (that I'm familiar with), but the responses I
saw seemed to be somewhat "meh" so I didn't pursue it.


  There are so many small arguments "this is a trunk" "no, a motorway" 
"no, primary", so it's often hard to give a firm fact based opinion. 
I'd say this goes a bit beyond that.


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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Mike N]

On 9/27/2020 11:22 PM, Jack Burke wrote:

and he has a diary
entry about what he's doing (in addition to what he has on his profile
page about it).  He changed*every single*  trunk road in Georgia to
primary, and from what I can tell, in Florida, too.  I haven't yet
expanded my examination into other states yet.



  Eliminating an OSM class of road in an entire state is an indicator 
of someone with an internal ruleset - something as simple as they don't 
like the color of Mapnik trunk roads in the current rendering scheme.


  It's interesting that someone from Indonesia added some observations 
about eastern US trunk roads to the wiki (which makes no sense). 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:highway%3Dtrunk=1959532=1959503


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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Jack Burke]

Clifford,

If I'm going to name names, I may as well include a few relevant links, too.

The editor in question is "floridaeditor"
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/floridaeditor and he has a diary
entry about what he's doing (in addition to what he has on his profile
page about it).  He changed *every single* trunk road in Georgia to
primary, and from what I can tell, in Florida, too.  I haven't yet
expanded my examination into other states yet.

One example changeset comment can be found here:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/87987046
Another (where he reverted someone's reversal of his edits) is:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88299504

I myself haven't added any comments to some of his changesets yet
because of his borderline belligerent attitude in his remarks.  He
essentially sets himself up as the judge and jury about whether or not
he will "accept" any requests for a change back to trunk.  A few other
people have (one of whom did so in a less than helpful manner, even
though he's local and from what I can tell, should likely be familiar
with the roads in question), but I'm just being an observer on that
for now.

I'm on Slack, and I originally posted a comment about this editor on
some roads in Florida (that I'm familiar with), but the responses I
saw seemed to be somewhat "meh" so I didn't pursue it.  If there's
another thread about it there, I'd love to read it, because (1) I
missed it, and (2) if it's about the same person, y'all weren't very
successful in reverting the changes.

--jack

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 10:21 PM Clifford Snow  wrote:
>
> Jack,
> First off - lets name names. Who is this person? We did have a discussion on 
> Slack a while back about an editor changing trunk to something other than 
> trunk. As far as I know we were successful in reverting many of those.
>
> Not everyone is comfortable using Slack and I understand. However, they 
> should respond to changeset comments. Especially from someone familiar with 
> the road. If they ignore you, then I would recommend involving DWG. If they 
> just want to argue then but won't join Slack, then I'd invite them to to this 
> mailing list discuss why they feel a particular road should be changed from 
> trunk to primary.
>
> Best,
> Clifford
>
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 6:35 PM Jack Burke  wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Recently, someone has taken it on himself to downgrade most (all?)
>> highway=trunk roads in the eastern U.S. to just primary.  The odd
>> thing is that the very wiki page he cites as his reason fully supports
>> keeping them as trunk.  Many of them I'm personally familiar with, and
>> even absent the wiki's definition, they actually make more sense as
>> trunk from a driving perspective.
>>
>> A few other editors have been getting involved in discussions with
>> him, some helpfully, others not quite.  He was specifically invited to
>> join this mailing list (and tagging), to discuss things, but as far as
>> I can tell hasn't done so yet.  Andy from DWG also suggested that he
>> join the OSMUS Slack channel, but I can't tell that he's done that,
>> either.
>>
>> Of particular concern to me isn't just his downgrades, but his
>> attitude about them.  Some of his changeset comments basically tell
>> anyone who disagrees with him to appeal his decision to him, and he'll
>> decide if the appellant is right or not, and if he catches anyone
>> reversing his changes, he'll just revert it back.  Given his
>> already-posted attitude about his edits, I'm not sure that trying to
>> message him privately will do much good.
>>
>> I'm going to go ahead and put out here that I've gone ahead and
>> changed some of them back to highway=trunk anyway, because as I said,
>> they just make more sense that way, *and* meet the wiki's definition.
>> And I'm quite sure that he'll revert them as soon as he notices.
>>
>> Does anyone have any suggestions, comments, questions, jokes, etc.,
>> about the situation?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jack
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> @osm_washington
> www.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Clifford Snow]

Jack,
First off - lets name names. Who is this person? We did have a discussion
on Slack a while back about an editor changing trunk to something other
than trunk. As far as I know we were successful in reverting many of those.

Not everyone is comfortable using Slack and I understand. However, they
should respond to changeset comments. Especially from someone familiar with
the road. If they ignore you, then I would recommend involving DWG. If they
just want to argue then but won't join Slack, then I'd invite them to to
this mailing list discuss why they feel a particular road should be changed
from trunk to primary.

Best,
Clifford

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 6:35 PM Jack Burke  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Recently, someone has taken it on himself to downgrade most (all?)
> highway=trunk roads in the eastern U.S. to just primary.  The odd
> thing is that the very wiki page he cites as his reason fully supports
> keeping them as trunk.  Many of them I'm personally familiar with, and
> even absent the wiki's definition, they actually make more sense as
> trunk from a driving perspective.
>
> A few other editors have been getting involved in discussions with
> him, some helpfully, others not quite.  He was specifically invited to
> join this mailing list (and tagging), to discuss things, but as far as
> I can tell hasn't done so yet.  Andy from DWG also suggested that he
> join the OSMUS Slack channel, but I can't tell that he's done that,
> either.
>
> Of particular concern to me isn't just his downgrades, but his
> attitude about them.  Some of his changeset comments basically tell
> anyone who disagrees with him to appeal his decision to him, and he'll
> decide if the appellant is right or not, and if he catches anyone
> reversing his changes, he'll just revert it back.  Given his
> already-posted attitude about his edits, I'm not sure that trying to
> message him privately will do much good.
>
> I'm going to go ahead and put out here that I've gone ahead and
> changed some of them back to highway=trunk anyway, because as I said,
> they just make more sense that way, *and* meet the wiki's definition.
> And I'm quite sure that he'll revert them as soon as he notices.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions, comments, questions, jokes, etc.,
> about the situation?
>
> Regards,
> Jack
>
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>


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[Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Jack Burke]

Hi all,

Recently, someone has taken it on himself to downgrade most (all?)
highway=trunk roads in the eastern U.S. to just primary.  The odd
thing is that the very wiki page he cites as his reason fully supports
keeping them as trunk.  Many of them I'm personally familiar with, and
even absent the wiki's definition, they actually make more sense as
trunk from a driving perspective.

A few other editors have been getting involved in discussions with
him, some helpfully, others not quite.  He was specifically invited to
join this mailing list (and tagging), to discuss things, but as far as
I can tell hasn't done so yet.  Andy from DWG also suggested that he
join the OSMUS Slack channel, but I can't tell that he's done that,
either.

Of particular concern to me isn't just his downgrades, but his
attitude about them.  Some of his changeset comments basically tell
anyone who disagrees with him to appeal his decision to him, and he'll
decide if the appellant is right or not, and if he catches anyone
reversing his changes, he'll just revert it back.  Given his
already-posted attitude about his edits, I'm not sure that trying to
message him privately will do much good.

I'm going to go ahead and put out here that I've gone ahead and
changed some of them back to highway=trunk anyway, because as I said,
they just make more sense that way, *and* meet the wiki's definition.
And I'm quite sure that he'll revert them as soon as he notices.

Does anyone have any suggestions, comments, questions, jokes, etc.,
about the situation?

Regards,
Jack

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