Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

I've seen 25or6to4's work, I am impressed.  Furthermore, I've asked him 
(off-list) if he would be willing to share his work more widely (here on 
talk-us), as it may "spark" a wider launch into the sort of clean-up of 
tiger:LSAD=57 data I've been waiting to see happen.  (Their 
boundary=administrative tags are changed to boundary=census and their 
admin_level=8 tags are deleted.  I think we want to exclude Alaska from this).

And, of course, I agree with you that this community is awesome!

Yes, TIGER cleanup continues, TIGER cleanup will continue (and continue, and 
continue...) and one fine day we will drive the last wooden stake into its 
heart.  TIGER data were and are helpful, yet they continue to need tender, 
loving mapping from our awesome community, likely for years to come.  A fresh 
cat box is a beautiful thing, ask any cat.

SteveA
California

> On Nov 14, 2018, at 2:06 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
> 
> Hi all, 
> 
> User 25or6to4 contacted me offline mentioning that he has been working on 
> improving boundaries based on newer TIGER for the past months now. That, 
> taken together with the boundless (ha) energy exuding from this thread, makes 
> me have a very happy boundary-positive attitude! I’m not much of a boundary 
> editor myself, but fortunately we all have our favorite topics. This 
> community is awesome. 
> 
> Martijn 

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Martijn van Exel]

Hi all, 

User 25or6to4 contacted me offline mentioning that he has been working on 
improving boundaries based on newer TIGER for the past months now. That, taken 
together with the boundless (ha) energy exuding from this thread, makes me have 
a very happy boundary-positive attitude! I’m not much of a boundary editor 
myself, but fortunately we all have our favorite topics. This community is 
awesome. 

Martijn 

> On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:02 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea  
> wrote:
> 
> Carl Anderson is correct:  what is in the map from TIGER about LSAD is true 
> and affords the possibly to derive geo data about incorporated entities (in 
> some cases, where they haven't been deleted), although the data (being 
> somewhere between 11 and 13 years old) may not be accurate, given 
> annexations, etc.  However, OSM's community, through exhaustive consensus 
> (much of it right here on talk-us, many of these discussions are ref'd in a 
> wiki I noted earlier) agree that what the US Census Bureau says is not 
> necessarily what OSM does or should use to document such entities.  In other 
> words, the Census Bureau is not authoritative.  For what we agree to put into 
> OSM, the OSM community's consensus IS authoritative.  We have agreed that 
> census boundaries of CDPs are statistical, not administrative (what 
> admin_level attempts to denote).  We correctly document how to do this.  
> However, MUCH old TIGER data remain.
> 
> Martijn, your OT link is helpful, here is a visual version:  
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/DG5 (although that does not allow "census.gov" to 
> appear as often as your text-based version does, so thank you for that 
> formatting).  What this shows is that the importation of much Census Bureau 
> data as CDPs in Utah (and elsewhere in the USA) continues to have MUCH work 
> to do:  our wiki suggests admin_level=8 tag be removed from these, and the 
> boundary=administrative tag be changed to boundary=census.  This is correct, 
> it has achieved wide consensus in OSM (via these talk-us pages) and has been 
> documented in our wiki for some time.  And not simply in Utah, this is true 
> in all 50 states, except Alaska, where the state works closely with the 
> Census Bureau to "organize" (not in the legal sense) the Unorganized Borough 
> of Alaska (bigger than any other state, even Texas).  Carl offers a clever 
> way for us to sharpen up how we might do this:  choose admin_level=8 tagged 
> relations which have tiger:LSAD=57 (e.g. Mona, Utah), change 
> boundary=administrative to boundary=census, and delete the admin_level=8 tag. 
>  Import script, anyone?  (Whew, that's a loaded question!)
> 
> However, I disagree with Martijn (or perhaps I do not understand his 
> intention) as he says about our US_admin_level wiki 
> "United_States_admin_level is really not correct... CDPs should be tagged 
> boundary=census, ideally without an admin_level=* tag."  I believe that IS a 
> correct statement, it is simply that Utah (and many other states, again, not 
> Alaska) have never had this "clean up" done.
> 
> Martijn's assertion that "state municipalities: cities, towns, villages and 
> hamlets (infrequent)” is an incorrect description of what we INTEND to denote 
> with admin_level=8 in the USA is also incorrect.  Simply said, hoary old 
> TIGER data contradicts this true statement on a fairly large scale, in Utah, 
> yes, but in most other states, too.
> 
> Let's not confuse what's in the map (from a noisy TIGER import) as correct, 
> when what really is correct is what we have achieved consensus about and 
> wiki-documented:  CDP data are boundary=census, not boundary=administrative 
> (and so, should have NO admin_level key, with any value).
> 
> And, I'd much rather have "too much" wiki than "not enough."  Wiki can be 
> ignored if too verbose, however, the consensus such wiki express is not 
> easily conjured.
> 
> Where I agree with Martijn is "I guess we have some work to do."  "Clean the 
> catbox" indeed!
> 
> SteveA
> California


___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

Carl Anderson is correct:  what is in the map from TIGER about LSAD is true and 
affords the possibly to derive geo data about incorporated entities (in some 
cases, where they haven't been deleted), although the data (being somewhere 
between 11 and 13 years old) may not be accurate, given annexations, etc.  
However, OSM's community, through exhaustive consensus (much of it right here 
on talk-us, many of these discussions are ref'd in a wiki I noted earlier) 
agree that what the US Census Bureau says is not necessarily what OSM does or 
should use to document such entities.  In other words, the Census Bureau is not 
authoritative.  For what we agree to put into OSM, the OSM community's 
consensus IS authoritative.  We have agreed that census boundaries of CDPs are 
statistical, not administrative (what admin_level attempts to denote).  We 
correctly document how to do this.  However, MUCH old TIGER data remain.

Martijn, your OT link is helpful, here is a visual version:  
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/DG5 (although that does not allow "census.gov" to 
appear as often as your text-based version does, so thank you for that 
formatting).  What this shows is that the importation of much Census Bureau 
data as CDPs in Utah (and elsewhere in the USA) continues to have MUCH work to 
do:  our wiki suggests admin_level=8 tag be removed from these, and the 
boundary=administrative tag be changed to boundary=census.  This is correct, it 
has achieved wide consensus in OSM (via these talk-us pages) and has been 
documented in our wiki for some time.  And not simply in Utah, this is true in 
all 50 states, except Alaska, where the state works closely with the Census 
Bureau to "organize" (not in the legal sense) the Unorganized Borough of Alaska 
(bigger than any other state, even Texas).  Carl offers a clever way for us to 
sharpen up how we might do this:  choose admin_level=8 tagged relations which 
have tiger:LSAD=57 (e.g. Mona, Utah), change boundary=administrative to 
boundary=census, and delete the admin_level=8 tag.  Import script, anyone?  
(Whew, that's a loaded question!)

However, I disagree with Martijn (or perhaps I do not understand his intention) 
as he says about our US_admin_level wiki "United_States_admin_level is really 
not correct... CDPs should be tagged boundary=census, ideally without an 
admin_level=* tag."  I believe that IS a correct statement, it is simply that 
Utah (and many other states, again, not Alaska) have never had this "clean up" 
done.

Martijn's assertion that "state municipalities: cities, towns, villages and 
hamlets (infrequent)” is an incorrect description of what we INTEND to denote 
with admin_level=8 in the USA is also incorrect.  Simply said, hoary old TIGER 
data contradicts this true statement on a fairly large scale, in Utah, yes, but 
in most other states, too.

Let's not confuse what's in the map (from a noisy TIGER import) as correct, 
when what really is correct is what we have achieved consensus about and 
wiki-documented:  CDP data are boundary=census, not boundary=administrative 
(and so, should have NO admin_level key, with any value).

And, I'd much rather have "too much" wiki than "not enough."  Wiki can be 
ignored if too verbose, however, the consensus such wiki express is not easily 
conjured.

Where I agree with Martijn is "I guess we have some work to do."  "Clean the 
catbox" indeed!

SteveA
California
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

[Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

A lot of people have (quickly) chimed in about this; political boundaries, 
admin_level and cities extending into counties usually gets to be a "hot" topic 
as people have a lot to say or strong opinions on these.

I and others recognized this years ago and what has emerged in OSM are two 
wikis, one on admin_level in the US, the other on "boundaries."  The former is 
quite comprehensive, perhaps it could be called "prescriptive" (here is how we 
SHOULD tag) and almost begins to approach a master's thesis in political 
science.  (OK, I exaggerate a bit).  The latter is more "novice-oriented," has 
user-friendly graphics and is what might called "quick and easy," it is 
certainly more "descriptive" (here is how we DO tag).  Both wikis have "settled 
down" in the last six to eight months, affording us some stability for 
reflection.  I think the many authors of these like where they have "landed," 
and the community doesn't seem to be changing them or discussing them as if 
they need (much) further change.

These are, respectively:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_admin_level
and
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_States/Boundaries

They both point to each other.  The first one has extensive footnotes.  The 
"Consolidated city-counties, Independent cities" section mentions that Dallas, 
Texas even extends over FIVE counties, and links (click on "hundreds of US 
cities") to wikipedia article 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._municipalities_in_multiple_counties 
that further explains this.

We have patient, open-minded and dedicated-to-getting-it-right wiki authors in 
this project who create and update comprehensive and friendly wiki.  Thank you 
to all of them.  I know my OSM experience would not be anywhere near as rich if 
I didn't have so much excellent wiki to read.

SteveA
California
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Kevin Kenny]

And another reminder: sparsely populated areas of the US may have
indefinite boundaries simply because nobody ever troubled to survey and
monument them. New York has a few county lines and a good many township
lines like that. They get resolved when and if there's a dispute. The tax
revenue from undeveloped forest lands is so minimal that the municipalities
don't bother as long as both landowners pay their taxes. In these areas,
you cannot assume that there's a definitive reference for the boundary
*anywhere*.

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 11:26 AM Kevin Kenny 
wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 11:07 AM Martijn van Exel  wrote:
>
>> Hmm.
>>
>> I guess https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_admin_level is
>> really not correct then where it says: "Census Designated Places (CDPs) are
>> boundaries maintained by the Census Bureau for statistical purposes. CDPs
>> should be tagged boundary=census, ideally without an admin_level=* tag.”
>>
>> Almost all Utah admin8 are in fact TIGER CDP boundaries:
>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/DFS
>>
>> Also,
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary=administrative#10_admin_level_values_for_specific_countries
>>  is
>> incorrect where it states that admin8 are "state municipalities: cities,
>> towns, villages and hamlets (infrequent)”
>>
>> Furthermore,
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_States/Boundaries is
>> also incorrect and suggests "Census-designated places (CDPs) are
>> statistical, not administrative areas. Project TIGER fixup deletes outdated
>> CDPs and retags relevant ones from boundary=administrative admin_level=8(or
>> 7) to boundary=census, no admin_level=*.”
>>
>> Finally, there seem to be too many wiki pages covering this :) But that’s
>> not unique for this topic.
>>
>
> CDP's do follow administrative boundaries for the most part, because many
> states ask the census to respect administrative boundaries (depending on
> census statistics for their own use).  Where stuff is really untrustworthy
> is where the Census Bureau had to invent the lines because a designated
> place was unincorporated.
>
> That's actually pretty common. New York has a couple of densely populated
> "hamlets" with populations of over 5 that never voted to adopt a city
> charter and so have no municipal government other than the township. Some
> of them even have official boundaries, generally because they are
> completely surrounded by incorporated communities, but sometimes as part of
> the town's bylaws.
>
> There are, nevertheless, a number of cases where the Census Bureau goofed.
> The neighbourhood where I grew up is one - for years the Census and the
> Post Office both placed it inside New York City, but it is not. The
> confusion was caused by the fact that the Post Office found it most
> convenient to sort the mail at an office in a neighbouring community that
> is in New York City, so the neighbourhood had a New York City ZIP code
> despite being in adjoining Nassau County. Residents found themselves in
> court, often, for failure to pay the New York City income tax that they did
> not owe, and so on. The city line is more or less correct in OSM, by the
> way, and I *think* that the Census Bureau had redrawn the CDP by the time
> TIGER was created.
>
> (Lesson: ZIP codes do not designate administrative regions. In fact, they
> do not necessarily designate contiguous geographic regions, or in fact, any
> geography at all. They are nothing more nor less than sets of mailboxes
> that the Post Office finds it convenient to sort together.)
>
> Also, TIGER. Enough said about TIGER.  Please clean the cat box any time
> that you get a chance.
>
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Kevin Kenny]

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 11:07 AM Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> Hmm.
>
> I guess https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_admin_level is
> really not correct then where it says: "Census Designated Places (CDPs) are
> boundaries maintained by the Census Bureau for statistical purposes. CDPs
> should be tagged boundary=census, ideally without an admin_level=* tag.”
>
> Almost all Utah admin8 are in fact TIGER CDP boundaries:
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/DFS
>
> Also,
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary=administrative#10_admin_level_values_for_specific_countries
>  is
> incorrect where it states that admin8 are "state municipalities: cities,
> towns, villages and hamlets (infrequent)”
>
> Furthermore,
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_States/Boundaries is
> also incorrect and suggests "Census-designated places (CDPs) are
> statistical, not administrative areas. Project TIGER fixup deletes outdated
> CDPs and retags relevant ones from boundary=administrative admin_level=8(or
> 7) to boundary=census, no admin_level=*.”
>
> Finally, there seem to be too many wiki pages covering this :) But that’s
> not unique for this topic.
>

CDP's do follow administrative boundaries for the most part, because many
states ask the census to respect administrative boundaries (depending on
census statistics for their own use).  Where stuff is really untrustworthy
is where the Census Bureau had to invent the lines because a designated
place was unincorporated.

That's actually pretty common. New York has a couple of densely populated
"hamlets" with populations of over 5 that never voted to adopt a city
charter and so have no municipal government other than the township. Some
of them even have official boundaries, generally because they are
completely surrounded by incorporated communities, but sometimes as part of
the town's bylaws.

There are, nevertheless, a number of cases where the Census Bureau goofed.
The neighbourhood where I grew up is one - for years the Census and the
Post Office both placed it inside New York City, but it is not. The
confusion was caused by the fact that the Post Office found it most
convenient to sort the mail at an office in a neighbouring community that
is in New York City, so the neighbourhood had a New York City ZIP code
despite being in adjoining Nassau County. Residents found themselves in
court, often, for failure to pay the New York City income tax that they did
not owe, and so on. The city line is more or less correct in OSM, by the
way, and I *think* that the Census Bureau had redrawn the CDP by the time
TIGER was created.

(Lesson: ZIP codes do not designate administrative regions. In fact, they
do not necessarily designate contiguous geographic regions, or in fact, any
geography at all. They are nothing more nor less than sets of mailboxes
that the Post Office finds it convenient to sort together.)

Also, TIGER. Enough said about TIGER.  Please clean the cat box any time
that you get a chance.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Kevin Kenny]

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 10:46 AM Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> I looked at a few place boundaries in Utah and compared with current TIGER
> files.. Definitely needs work..
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1113me8y9t1my5/Screenshot%202018-11-14%2008.42.30.png?dl=0
>  (colored
> = current OSM, grey = TIGER places shape file 2018)
>

It may indeed need work, but don't expect admin levels in the US to be
hierarchical, except that typically there will be no administrative region
crossing state lines. (The examples of state-line-crossing cities above, as
the posters point out, are legally separate cities on the two sides of the
line.)

There are lots of weird cases. The Vermont-New Hampshire line does NOT
follow the Thalweg of the Connecticut River - and is monumented by the only
set of trig points placed by the Judicial Branch of the US Government -
their markers bear the legend "THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES" and
are offset from the line to keep them above high water.
https://www.ctriver.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/State-Line-marker-on-Guildhall-shore.jpg
- the Supreme Court was settling, in 1934, a boundary dispute that had been
festering since 1778.

New York has two cities (New York City, which is coterminous with five
counties, and Geneva) that cross county lines, and about 15% of the
villages cross township lines. The rules for New York are:
All counties are mutually exclusive, and all of the state is in one county
or another.
The next admin-level (township, city, Indian Reservation) are all mutually
exclusive, and all of the state is in one or another of these.  But cities
and Indian Reservations can cross county lines (townships cannot).
At the next admin-level all bets are off. No village overlaps a city, but
they cross township and occasionally county lines all the time.

Other states have other rules. There are no really good assumptions to be
made.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Ian Dees]

Nope, I'm saying all those wiki pages are correct. CDPs are boundaries for
statistical purposes, not city boundaries.

But I agree there are too many wiki pages :).

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 10:04 AM Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> Hmm.
>
> I guess https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_admin_level is
> really not correct then where it says: "Census Designated Places (CDPs) are
> boundaries maintained by the Census Bureau for statistical purposes. CDPs
> should be tagged boundary=census, ideally without an admin_level=* tag.”
>
> Almost all Utah admin8 are in fact TIGER CDP boundaries:
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/DFS
>
> Also,
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary=administrative#10_admin_level_values_for_specific_countries
>  is
> incorrect where it states that admin8 are "state municipalities: cities,
> towns, villages and hamlets (infrequent)”
>
> Furthermore,
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_States/Boundaries is
> also incorrect and suggests "Census-designated places (CDPs) are
> statistical, not administrative areas. Project TIGER fixup deletes outdated
> CDPs and retags relevant ones from boundary=administrative admin_level=8(or
> 7) to boundary=census, no admin_level=*.”
>
> Finally, there seem to be too many wiki pages covering this :) But that’s
> not unique for this topic.
>
> I guess we have some work to do!
>
> Martijn
>
> On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:54 AM, Ian Dees  wrote:
>
> A friendly reminder that Census's TIGER data we have previously imported
> as admin8 polygons aren't actually official city boundaries. They're "Census
> Designated Places "
> which are just named "concentrations of people". In some cases the Census
> may have gone to the trouble of incorporating city boundary information,
> but my guess is that the majority of cases are just "Census blocks that
> look like they're part of the city".
>
> Having said that, there really isn't a good national-level dataset of city
> boundaries and Google uses CDP boundaries for their search results...
>
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:49 AM Martijn van Exel  wrote:
>
>> Sorry that link is bad. https://cloud.rtijn.org/s/ZLen9D8M3tYaAgj
>>
>> On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:44 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
>>
>> I looked at a few place boundaries in Utah and compared with current
>> TIGER files.. Definitely needs work..
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1113me8y9t1my5/Screenshot%202018-11-14%2008.42.30.png?dl=0
>>  (colored
>> = current OSM, grey = TIGER places shape file 2018)
>>
>> Martijn
>>
>>
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Martijn van Exel]

Hmm.

I guess https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_admin_level 
 is really not 
correct then where it says: "Census Designated Places (CDPs) are boundaries 
maintained by the Census Bureau for statistical purposes. CDPs should be tagged 
boundary=census, ideally without an admin_level=* tag.”

Almost all Utah admin8 are in fact TIGER CDP boundaries: 
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/DFS  

Also, 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary=administrative#10_admin_level_values_for_specific_countries
 

 is incorrect where it states that admin8 are "state municipalities: cities, 
towns, villages and hamlets (infrequent)”

Furthermore, 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_States/Boundaries 
 is 
also incorrect and suggests "Census-designated places (CDPs) are statistical, 
not administrative areas. Project TIGER fixup deletes outdated CDPs and retags 
relevant ones from boundary=administrative admin_level=8(or 7) to 
boundary=census, no admin_level=*.”

Finally, there seem to be too many wiki pages covering this :) But that’s not 
unique for this topic.

I guess we have some work to do! 

Martijn

> On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:54 AM, Ian Dees  wrote:
> 
> A friendly reminder that Census's TIGER data we have previously imported as 
> admin8 polygons aren't actually official city boundaries. They're "Census 
> Designated Places " 
> which are just named "concentrations of people". In some cases the Census may 
> have gone to the trouble of incorporating city boundary information, but my 
> guess is that the majority of cases are just "Census blocks that look like 
> they're part of the city".
> 
> Having said that, there really isn't a good national-level dataset of city 
> boundaries and Google uses CDP boundaries for their search results...
> 
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:49 AM Martijn van Exel  > wrote:
> Sorry that link is bad. https://cloud.rtijn.org/s/ZLen9D8M3tYaAgj 
>  
> 
>> On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:44 AM, Martijn van Exel > > wrote:
>> 
>> I looked at a few place boundaries in Utah and compared with current TIGER 
>> files.. Definitely needs work.. 
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1113me8y9t1my5/Screenshot%202018-11-14%2008.42.30.png?dl=0
>>  
>> 
>>  (colored = current OSM, grey = TIGER places shape file 2018)
>> 
>> Martijn
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Paul Johnson]

Looks about right.  There's examples of this sort of thing all over...
heck, there's some cities that straddle state lines.

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018, 07:47  Hi,
>
> are there cities (admin level 8) in the USA which  part of two counties?
>
> see: https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2018/lee.png
>
> left: Lee County
>
> right: DeKalb County
>
> there are some more, but i would like to know if that is ok. In Germany
> this is impossible.
>
> Regards
>
> walter/Germany
>
> --
> My projects:
>
> Admin Boundaries of the World 
> Missing Boundaries
> 
> Emergency Map 
> Postal Code Map (Germany only) 
> Fools (QA for zipcodes in Germany) 
> Postcode Boundaries of Germany
> 
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Ian Dees]

A friendly reminder that Census's TIGER data we have previously imported as
admin8 polygons aren't actually official city boundaries. They're "Census
Designated Places "
which are just named "concentrations of people". In some cases the Census
may have gone to the trouble of incorporating city boundary information,
but my guess is that the majority of cases are just "Census blocks that
look like they're part of the city".

Having said that, there really isn't a good national-level dataset of city
boundaries and Google uses CDP boundaries for their search results...

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:49 AM Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> Sorry that link is bad. https://cloud.rtijn.org/s/ZLen9D8M3tYaAgj
>
> On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:44 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
>
> I looked at a few place boundaries in Utah and compared with current TIGER
> files.. Definitely needs work..
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1113me8y9t1my5/Screenshot%202018-11-14%2008.42.30.png?dl=0
>  (colored
> = current OSM, grey = TIGER places shape file 2018)
>
> Martijn
>
>
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 11/14/18 07:46, wambac...@posteo.de wrote:
> are there cities (admin level 8) in the USA which  part of two counties?

I'm pretty sure parts of Houston, TX, extend past the Harris County
boundaries.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[EthnicFood IsGreat]

Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 14:46:48 +0100
From: wambac...@posteo.de
To: "talk-us@openstreetmap.org Openstreetmap"

Subject: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois
Hi,

are there cities (admin level 8) in the USA which  part of two counties?

see: https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2018/lee.png

left: Lee County

right: DeKalb County

there are some more, but i would like to know if that is ok. In Germany
this is impossible.

Regards

walter/Germany

--

My projects:

Admin Boundaries of the World <https://wambachers-osm.website/boundaries>
Missing Boundaries
<https://wambachers-osm.website/index.php/projekte/internationale-administrative-grenzen/missing-boundaries>
Emergency Map <https://wambachers-osm.website/emergency>
Postal Code Map (Germany only) <https://wambachers-osm.website/plz>
Fools (QA for zipcodes in Germany) <https://wambachers-osm.website/fools>
Postcode Boundaries of Germany <https://wambachers-osm.website/pcoundaries>
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/attachments/20181114/66ddb5b3/attachment-0001.html>




I personally know of an example in Indiana.

Mark

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Martijn van Exel]

Sorry that link is bad. https://cloud.rtijn.org/s/ZLen9D8M3tYaAgj 
<https://cloud.rtijn.org/s/ZLen9D8M3tYaAgj> 

> On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:44 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
> 
> I looked at a few place boundaries in Utah and compared with current TIGER 
> files.. Definitely needs work.. 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1113me8y9t1my5/Screenshot%202018-11-14%2008.42.30.png?dl=0
>  
> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1113me8y9t1my5/Screenshot%202018-11-14%2008.42.30.png?dl=0>
>  (colored = current OSM, grey = TIGER places shape file 2018)
> 
> Martijn
> 
>> On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:35 AM, Kerry Irons > <mailto:irons54vor...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> And let’s never forget College Corner, OH/IN.  It is in three counties and 
>> two states.  It has two different zip codes.  But really, it is two separate 
>> towns  -College Corner OH and West College Corner IN.  And of course Delmar 
>> and Mardel along the Delaware/Maryland state line.  Just to keep things 
>> interesting.
>>  
>>  
>> Kerry Irons
>>  
>> From: Brad Neuhauser > <mailto:brad.neuhau...@gmail.com>> 
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 10:18 AM
>> To: Clifford Snow mailto:cliff...@snowandsnow.us>>
>> Cc: wambac...@posteo.de <mailto:wambac...@posteo.de>; 
>> talk-us@openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois
>>  
>> Minnesota has around 40 cross-county cities, most of which have just a small 
>> portion in the second county. St. Cloud is notable for being in three 
>> counties! https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/137238 
>> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/137238>
>>  
>> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:01 AM Clifford Snow > <mailto:cliff...@snowandsnow.us>> wrote:
>>> Yes - a city can cover more than one county in the US. I'm not familiar 
>>> with your example, but we have Bothell, WA which is in both King and 
>>> Snohomish County. 
>>>  
>>> Best,
>>> Clifford
>>>  
>>> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 5:47 AM >> <mailto:wambac...@posteo.de>> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> are there cities (admin level 8) in the USA which  part of two counties?
>>>> see: https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2018/lee.png 
>>>> <https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2018/lee.png>
>>>> left: Lee County
>>>> right: DeKalb County
>>>> there are some more, but i would like to know if that is ok. In Germany 
>>>> this is impossible.
>>>> Regards
>>>> walter/Germany 
>>>> -- 
>>>> My projects:
>>>> 
>>>> Admin Boundaries of the World <https://wambachers-osm.website/boundaries>
>>>> Missing Boundaries 
>>>> <https://wambachers-osm.website/index.php/projekte/internationale-administrative-grenzen/missing-boundaries>
>>>> Emergency Map <https://wambachers-osm.website/emergency>
>>>> Postal Code Map (Germany only) <https://wambachers-osm.website/plz>
>>>> Fools (QA for zipcodes in Germany) <https://wambachers-osm.website/fools>
>>>> Postcode Boundaries of Germany <https://wambachers-osm.website/pcoundaries>
>>>> ___
>>>> Talk-us mailing list
>>>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org>
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us 
>>>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us>
>>> 
>>>  
>>> -- 
>>> @osm_seattle
>>> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us <http://osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us/>
>>> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>>> ___
>>> Talk-us mailing list
>>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org>
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us 
>>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us>___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org>
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us 
>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us>

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Martijn van Exel]

I looked at a few place boundaries in Utah and compared with current TIGER 
files.. Definitely needs work.. 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1113me8y9t1my5/Screenshot%202018-11-14%2008.42.30.png?dl=0
 
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1113me8y9t1my5/Screenshot%202018-11-14%2008.42.30.png?dl=0>
 (colored = current OSM, grey = TIGER places shape file 2018)

Martijn

> On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:35 AM, Kerry Irons  wrote:
> 
> And let’s never forget College Corner, OH/IN.  It is in three counties and 
> two states.  It has two different zip codes.  But really, it is two separate 
> towns  -College Corner OH and West College Corner IN.  And of course Delmar 
> and Mardel along the Delaware/Maryland state line.  Just to keep things 
> interesting.
>  
>  
> Kerry Irons
>  
> From: Brad Neuhauser  
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 10:18 AM
> To: Clifford Snow 
> Cc: wambac...@posteo.de; talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois
>  
> Minnesota has around 40 cross-county cities, most of which have just a small 
> portion in the second county. St. Cloud is notable for being in three 
> counties! https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/137238 
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/137238>
>  
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:01 AM Clifford Snow  <mailto:cliff...@snowandsnow.us>> wrote:
>> Yes - a city can cover more than one county in the US. I'm not familiar with 
>> your example, but we have Bothell, WA which is in both King and Snohomish 
>> County. 
>>  
>> Best,
>> Clifford
>>  
>> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 5:47 AM > <mailto:wambac...@posteo.de>> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> are there cities (admin level 8) in the USA which  part of two counties?
>>> see: https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2018/lee.png 
>>> <https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2018/lee.png>
>>> left: Lee County
>>> right: DeKalb County
>>> there are some more, but i would like to know if that is ok. In Germany 
>>> this is impossible.
>>> Regards
>>> walter/Germany 
>>> -- 
>>> My projects:
>>> 
>>> Admin Boundaries of the World <https://wambachers-osm.website/boundaries>
>>> Missing Boundaries 
>>> <https://wambachers-osm.website/index.php/projekte/internationale-administrative-grenzen/missing-boundaries>
>>> Emergency Map <https://wambachers-osm.website/emergency>
>>> Postal Code Map (Germany only) <https://wambachers-osm.website/plz>
>>> Fools (QA for zipcodes in Germany) <https://wambachers-osm.website/fools>
>>> Postcode Boundaries of Germany <https://wambachers-osm.website/pcoundaries>
>>> ___
>>> Talk-us mailing list
>>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org>
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us 
>>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us>
>> 
>>  
>> -- 
>> @osm_seattle
>> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us <http://osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us/>
>> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org>
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us 
>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us>___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Kerry Irons]

And let’s never forget College Corner, OH/IN.  It is in three counties and two 
states.  It has two different zip codes.  But really, it is two separate towns  
-College Corner OH and West College Corner IN.  And of course Delmar and Mardel 
along the Delaware/Maryland state line.  Just to keep things interesting.

 

 

Kerry Irons

 

From: Brad Neuhauser  
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 10:18 AM
To: Clifford Snow 
Cc: wambac...@posteo.de; talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

 

Minnesota has around 40 cross-county cities, most of which have just a small 
portion in the second county. St. Cloud is notable for being in three counties! 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/137238

 

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:01 AM Clifford Snow mailto:cliff...@snowandsnow.us> > wrote:

Yes - a city can cover more than one county in the US. I'm not familiar with 
your example, but we have Bothell, WA which is in both King and Snohomish 
County. 

 

Best,

Clifford

 

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 5:47 AM mailto:wambac...@posteo.de> > wrote:

Hi,

are there cities (admin level 8) in the USA which  part of two counties?

see: https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2018/lee.png

left: Lee County

right: DeKalb County

there are some more, but i would like to know if that is ok. In Germany this is 
impossible.

Regards

walter/Germany 

-- 

My projects:

Admin Boundaries of the World <https://wambachers-osm.website/boundaries> 
Missing Boundaries 
<https://wambachers-osm.website/index.php/projekte/internationale-administrative-grenzen/missing-boundaries>
 
Emergency Map <https://wambachers-osm.website/emergency> 
Postal Code Map (Germany only) <https://wambachers-osm.website/plz> 
Fools (QA for zipcodes in Germany) <https://wambachers-osm.website/fools> 
Postcode Boundaries of Germany <https://wambachers-osm.website/pcoundaries> 

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org> 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us




 

-- 

@osm_seattle

osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us <http://osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us> 

OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org> 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Brad Neuhauser]

Minnesota has around 40 cross-county cities, most of which have just a
small portion in the second county. St. Cloud is notable for being in three
counties! https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/137238

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:01 AM Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> Yes - a city can cover more than one county in the US. I'm not familiar
> with your example, but we have Bothell, WA which is in both King and
> Snohomish County.
>
> Best,
> Clifford
>
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 5:47 AM  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> are there cities (admin level 8) in the USA which  part of two counties?
>>
>> see: https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2018/lee.png
>>
>> left: Lee County
>>
>> right: DeKalb County
>>
>> there are some more, but i would like to know if that is ok. In Germany
>> this is impossible.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> walter/Germany
>>
>> --
>> My projects:
>>
>> Admin Boundaries of the World 
>> Missing Boundaries
>> 
>> Emergency Map 
>> Postal Code Map (Germany only) 
>> Fools (QA for zipcodes in Germany) 
>> Postcode Boundaries of Germany
>> 
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>
>
>
> --
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Yes.
New York City has several counties within its borders.
I believe Houston and several other cities in Texas cross county borders.
On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 11:08 PM Adam Franco  wrote:

> Last summer there was a big thread Differences with USA admin_level
> tagging
> 
> that talked a lot about odd cases in the US. As one example, Kevin Kenny 
> pointed
> out
>  
> Geneva,
> NY 
> which apparently has a portion in a second county. I haven't re-read the
> who thread, but I seem to remember others mentioning a number of other
> situations where administrative areas really can't be represented in a
> cleanly nested way.
>
> Best,
> Adam
>
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 8:49 AM  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> are there cities (admin level 8) in the USA which  part of two counties?
>>
>> see: https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2018/lee.png
>>
>> left: Lee County
>>
>> right: DeKalb County
>>
>> there are some more, but i would like to know if that is ok. In Germany
>> this is impossible.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> walter/Germany
>>
>> --
>> My projects:
>>
>> Admin Boundaries of the World 
>> Missing Boundaries
>> 
>> Emergency Map 
>> Postal Code Map (Germany only) 
>> Fools (QA for zipcodes in Germany) 
>> Postcode Boundaries of Germany
>> 
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Martijn van Exel]

Thanks for pointing it out, Walter.

As others have said, local admin boundaries and their hierarchies are weird 
from a European perspective. I am still trying to understand it.

The boundary may still be wrong. Many (all?) of the admin8 boundaries were 
imported almost 10 years ago. I wouldn’t be surprised if many have not been 
updated to reflect boundary updates. Time to put in an effort to re-check them? 
(Potentially a lot of work, in Utah alone there’s 295 admin8 relations.)

Martijn



> On Nov 14, 2018, at 7:58 AM, Clifford Snow  wrote:
> 
> Yes - a city can cover more than one county in the US. I'm not familiar with 
> your example, but we have Bothell, WA which is in both King and Snohomish 
> County. 
> 
> Best,
> Clifford
> 
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 5:47 AM  > wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> are there cities (admin level 8) in the USA which  part of two counties?
> 
> see: https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2018/lee.png 
> 
> left: Lee County
> 
> right: DeKalb County
> 
> there are some more, but i would like to know if that is ok. In Germany this 
> is impossible.
> 
> Regards
> 
> walter/Germany 
> 
> -- 
> 
> My projects:
> 
> Admin Boundaries of the World 
> Missing Boundaries 
> 
> Emergency Map 
> Postal Code Map (Germany only) 
> Fools (QA for zipcodes in Germany) 
> Postcode Boundaries of Germany 
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us 
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Clifford Snow]

Yes - a city can cover more than one county in the US. I'm not familiar
with your example, but we have Bothell, WA which is in both King and
Snohomish County.

Best,
Clifford

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 5:47 AM  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> are there cities (admin level 8) in the USA which  part of two counties?
>
> see: https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2018/lee.png
>
> left: Lee County
>
> right: DeKalb County
>
> there are some more, but i would like to know if that is ok. In Germany
> this is impossible.
>
> Regards
>
> walter/Germany
>
> --
> My projects:
>
> Admin Boundaries of the World 
> Missing Boundaries
> 
> Emergency Map 
> Postal Code Map (Germany only) 
> Fools (QA for zipcodes in Germany) 
> Postcode Boundaries of Germany
> 
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>


-- 
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Josh Lee]

I can think of at least six examples in Pennsylvania off the top of my head:
Trafford, McDonald, Shippensburg, Seven Springs, Telford, Falls Creek.

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018, 08:49  Hi,
>
> are there cities (admin level 8) in the USA which  part of two counties?
>
> see: https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2018/lee.png
>
> left: Lee County
>
> right: DeKalb County
>
> there are some more, but i would like to know if that is ok. In Germany
> this is impossible.
>
> Regards
>
> walter/Germany
>
> --
> My projects:
>
> Admin Boundaries of the World 
> Missing Boundaries
> 
> Emergency Map 
> Postal Code Map (Germany only) 
> Fools (QA for zipcodes in Germany) 
> Postcode Boundaries of Germany
> 
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Adam Franco]

Last summer there was a big thread Differences with USA admin_level tagging

that talked a lot about odd cases in the US. As one example, Kevin
Kenny pointed
out

Geneva,
NY 
which apparently has a portion in a second county. I haven't re-read the
who thread, but I seem to remember others mentioning a number of other
situations where administrative areas really can't be represented in a
cleanly nested way.

Best,
Adam

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 8:49 AM  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> are there cities (admin level 8) in the USA which  part of two counties?
>
> see: https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2018/lee.png
>
> left: Lee County
>
> right: DeKalb County
>
> there are some more, but i would like to know if that is ok. In Germany
> this is impossible.
>
> Regards
>
> walter/Germany
>
> --
> My projects:
>
> Admin Boundaries of the World 
> Missing Boundaries
> 
> Emergency Map 
> Postal Code Map (Germany only) 
> Fools (QA for zipcodes in Germany) 
> Postcode Boundaries of Germany
> 
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us