Re: [Talk-us] Streaming JOSM -- suggestions?
On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 7:38 PM Bob Gambrel wrote: > > A very good answer stevea. I suspect the changes I have been making would be > appropriate enough for removing tiger_reviewed=no. > > 1) almost always have driven the road as passenger taking notes in OSMAND+ > about pavement type > 2) in ID carefully aligning the roads > 3) in ID verifying that an extra road doesn't exist by looking at several > aerial phots sources before deleting > 4) setting pavement tpe > 5) setting lane counts > 6) putting in traffic signals where known > 7) noting stop signs where possible and adding stop sign nodes > > Have been less likely to change road type. For example have left minor rural > roads as residential if there are farms on it. I have made sure that service > roads and driveways are not naked as residential. Personally, I think even that much is overkill for deleting tiger:reviewed. I think that surface, lanes, and traffic controls are things that a mapper can notice are not mapped, irrespective of the TIGER review status. There are lots of hand-mapped roads that don't have the information! I'm willing to delete the tag when: (1) I've checked alignment against two sets of aerials, at least one with the leaves off. (In my case, that's almost always Maxar and NYS Orthos Online.) (2) I've added all bridges and culverts that I can identify on aerials. (Which always leads me down the rabbit hole of mapping the corresponding waterways) (2) I've verified that the name matches the state DOT highway map and the E911 address points. (3) I've adjusted the road class (TIGER's 'residential' can mean anything from a tertiary highway to a track!) (4) I've created route relations if the road has a ref (and removed the ref from the road's names!) I don't do 'lanes' very often. I do 'surface' if the road is obviously not hard-surfaced (sometimes I can even see the ruts in aerials), and I do traffic controls only when surveying in person, which I always do afoot. I'd like a way to indicate that an intersection is uncontrolled. I've found myself returning on foot several times to the same intersection to look for STOP signs that aren't there, because I can't remember that I've checked it already. The reason that I'm so lax is that in my part of the state, TIGER is _horrible_ and mappers are scarce. I chronically lack time to do very much about it, although I've at least checked the above information for all the unreviewed roads in my home county (barring some service ways that I'm not sure I can access legally). I work intermittently on a couple of neighbouring counties. There are a lot of service ways 'residential' ways in TIGER that are a mile or two off from the correct alignment or are otherwise ridiculous. At this point, in my area, 'tiger:reviewed=no' means 'beware: this road likely is entirely hallucinatory' and I kill the tag once I've verified that the information that TIGER provided is correct. The information that TIGER didn't ordinarily provide, I can leave for others (possibly including future-Kevin). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Streaming JOSM -- suggestions?
Please accept my apology for implying using the search for an automated edit.
I assumed the same type of work flow I am doing now: Using the results of the
query to direct my attention to what I want to fix. Still need to examine the
location and available information to decide, on an object by object basis, if
the data in OSM meets your standards or needs further improvement before doing
something like removing the tiger:reviewed tag.
--
Sent from my phone, please forgive my brevity.
> On Tuesday, Jul 07, 2020 at 5:10 PM, stevea (mailto:stevea...@softworkers.com)> wrote:
> On Jul 7, 2020, at 5:03 PM, Tod Fitch wrote:
> > One thing that I only recently figured out: You can include a search for
> > your OSM user ID in the Overpass query. That might help to find roads
> > you’ve edited in the past so you can remove the tiger:reviewed tag.
> >
> > I am using that to find all those highway=stop I mapped back when the Wiki
> > said that the render/consumer could figure out which direction is was for
> > based on distance to the nearest intersection. Since that time tagging
> > practice has changed and a “direction=forward | backward” tag is now
> > supposed to be on nodes tagged with “highway=stop | yield”.
> >
> > Since Osmose is nagging me, I thought I should go back and clean up the
> > several thousand instances. About 2/3rds of the way done on that task. The
> > Overpass search I currently use is:
> >
> > > [out:xml][timeout:25];
> > > (
> > > node(user:"n76")["direction"!~".*"]["highway"="stop"]({{bbox}});
> > > node(user:"n76")["direction"!~".*"]["highway"="give_way"]({{bbox}});
> > > );
> > > out meta;
> > > > ;
> > > out meta qt;
> >
> > p.s. Thanks Steve! I was not aware I could use a geocode area like
> > California for my Overpass search boundary. That will come is handy!
>
> You are welcome. And it is amazing how OT can combine queries into dizzyingly
> complex stacks of very specific subsets of OSM's data. However, I would
> caution what has a whiff of "automated edit" here: having an OT query — even
> when it is all your editing — to be an all-encompassing assumption that "what
> you edited before is absolutely correct...because YOU did!" might be too
> strong of an assumption. So, please be careful.
>
> My point is that every time I remove the tiger_reviewed=no tag, it is during
> an edit session where I was quite deliberately doing specifically-TIGER aware
> editing and correction. Assuming that a bunch of edits you have done before
> actually WERE improving TIGER data "so good" (maybe so, maybe not) that you
> might also (retrospectively) remove the tiger_reviewed=no tag might be
> specious. It might not be specious, true, so OK, go ahead and remove the "no"
> tag, but don't do so in a batch. I'd recommend a re-review of those data
> before you remove "no" tags. Individually during a review that might go
> pretty quickly, but not all at once with an assumption that sounds a lot like
> a lark or a wish. Be careful!
>
> Cautious sometimes (including here), rather than bold (but bold on occasion),
> SteveA
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
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Re: [Talk-us] Streaming JOSM -- suggestions?
One thing that I only recently figured out: You can include a search for your
OSM user ID in the Overpass query. That might help to find roads you’ve edited
in the past so you can remove the tiger:reviewed tag.
I am using that to find all those highway=stop I mapped back when the Wiki said
that the render/consumer could figure out which direction is was for based on
distance to the nearest intersection. Since that time tagging practice has
changed and a “direction=forward | backward” tag is now supposed to be on nodes
tagged with “highway=stop | yield”.
Since Osmose is nagging me, I thought I should go back and clean up the several
thousand instances. About 2/3rds of the way done on that task. The Overpass
search I currently use is:
> [out:xml][timeout:25];
> (
> node(user:"n76")["direction"!~".*"]["highway"="stop"]({{bbox}});
> node(user:"n76")["direction"!~".*"]["highway"="give_way"]({{bbox}});
> );
> out meta;
> >;
> out meta qt;
p.s. Thanks Steve! I was not aware I could use a geocode area like California
for my Overpass search boundary. That will come is handy!
—Tod
> On Jul 7, 2020, at 4:37 PM, Bob Gambrel wrote:
>
> A very good answer stevea. I suspect the changes I have been making would be
> appropriate enough for removing tiger_reviewed=no.
>
> 1) almost always have driven the road as passenger taking notes in OSMAND+
> about pavement type
> 2) in ID carefully aligning the roads
> 3) in ID verifying that an extra road doesn't exist by looking at several
> aerial phots sources before deleting
> 4) setting pavement tpe
> 5) setting lane counts
> 6) putting in traffic signals where known
> 7) noting stop signs where possible and adding stop sign nodes
>
> Have been less likely to change road type. For example have left minor rural
> roads as residential if there are farms on it. I have made sure that service
> roads and driveways are not naked as residential.
>
> From now on I will get rid of the tag as I walk through an area.
>
> Thanks for the two links and advice. Am not ready to exhaustively do an area
> by using OT. For now just concentration on roads that I have been on and
> taken notes about and have created and uploaded traces for.
>
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 5:43 PM stevea > wrote:
> Bob, thank you for asking.
>
> Good entry points for the history and what to do with TIGER data are
> https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/TIGER and
> https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup
> (respectively). One of the more important things you CAN do is that if you
> truly do "fix up" TIGER data to about as good as it can be today (given local
> knowledge — best — or aerial / satellite data like Esri or Bing) is to remove
> the tiger_reviewed=no tag. As the latter wiki says, "the practice to remove
> this tag varies" but I believe you should feel confident removing it when you
> are personally proud of the resultant data in OSM being truly reflective of
> what is in reality as you upload the changeset containing it. And, it isn't
> simply "alignment" being accurate, all of the tags on that datum should be
> snappy, modern and correct, too. It's not hard, and can even be fun with
> some practice.
>
> There used to be some excellent tools for visualizing areas where TIGER
> Review is needed, unfortunately, these are either old, fully deprecated or
> replaced by less-than-as-useful tools (imo). It may be that Overpass Turbo
> (OT) queries suit you, I use them in my large (data, geographically) state of
> California on TIGER rail data, and the results (while somewhat large) are not
> overwhelming, either to browsers, editors (like JOSM) where you might edit
> them (or subsets of them) or humans. However, for highway=* data, especially
> in a large (data, geographically) state where little TIGER Review has already
> completed, you may very well find OT does get overwhelmed. Try the query I
> (and others) use for California/Railroads:
>
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/PSt
>
> noting that it is easy to change the geocodeArea to your state and
> "way[railway]" to something like "way[highway=tertiary]"
>
> Of course, you are asking the OT server to digest large amounts of data as
> you do so, be prepared to (first) increase the timeout value (try
> one-minute-at-a-time bump-ups, from 180 to 240, from 240 to 300...) and
> (second) you might need to decrease the geocodeArea to a (unique) county,
> rather than a whole state-at-a-time. Good luck, have fun, share with your
> OSM friends how this can be a fun activity in your local area and let's slay
> the TIGER dragon!
>
> SteveA
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
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Re: [Talk-us] Streaming JOSM -- suggestions?
I think we're saying the same thing: I use OT to curate datasets and sometimes I'll specifically clean up their TIGER data, like when that is exactly what I curate in my query. Other times, I'll fix TIGER data otherwise. I'm deliberate in all cases and I believe all good OSM editors are deliberate, too. (Those who find themselves faced with TIGER data, as some of us are). As long as "OT query results" don't ridiculously get out-of-control turning into automated edits, we're good. I don't think that happens (often), but if you wanted to make it a short distance between those two, you could. Even if your intentions are nefarious, which they are not and is what I mean by "all good OSM editors." So, yeah, lots of sharp edges that might cut, there. I don't mean to hurt anybody by suggesting that they tend towards that, not my intentions at all. Let's all be careful growing these wonderful map data. They are wonderful, often beautiful. SteveA ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Streaming JOSM -- suggestions?
On Jul 7, 2020, at 5:17 PM, Tod Fitch wrote: > Please accept my apology for implying using the search for an automated edit. > > I assumed the same type of work flow I am doing now: Using the results of the > query to direct my attention to what I want to fix. Still need to examine the > location and available information to decide, on an object by object basis, > if the data in OSM meets your standards or needs further improvement before > doing something like removing the tiger:reviewed tag. Sure, I don't think an apology is necessary, as we're all adults here (I think!) and take responsibility for our actions. Sometimes, we are not aware that our actions are like pulling a machine gun trigger or tipping over an entire bucket of paint: relatively minor actions on our part but which have a profound effect on the map's data. Be aware, the map will be fine. SteveA ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Streaming JOSM -- suggestions?
On Jul 7, 2020, at 5:03 PM, Tod Fitch wrote:
> One thing that I only recently figured out: You can include a search for your
> OSM user ID in the Overpass query. That might help to find roads you’ve
> edited in the past so you can remove the tiger:reviewed tag.
>
> I am using that to find all those highway=stop I mapped back when the Wiki
> said that the render/consumer could figure out which direction is was for
> based on distance to the nearest intersection. Since that time tagging
> practice has changed and a “direction=forward | backward” tag is now supposed
> to be on nodes tagged with “highway=stop | yield”.
>
> Since Osmose is nagging me, I thought I should go back and clean up the
> several thousand instances. About 2/3rds of the way done on that task. The
> Overpass search I currently use is:
>
>> [out:xml][timeout:25];
>> (
>> node(user:"n76")["direction"!~".*"]["highway"="stop"]({{bbox}});
>> node(user:"n76")["direction"!~".*"]["highway"="give_way"]({{bbox}});
>> );
>> out meta;
>> >;
>> out meta qt;
>
> p.s. Thanks Steve! I was not aware I could use a geocode area like California
> for my Overpass search boundary. That will come is handy!
You are welcome. And it is amazing how OT can combine queries into dizzyingly
complex stacks of very specific subsets of OSM's data. However, I would
caution what has a whiff of "automated edit" here: having an OT query — even
when it is all your editing — to be an all-encompassing assumption that "what
you edited before is absolutely correct...because YOU did!" might be too strong
of an assumption. So, please be careful.
My point is that every time I remove the tiger_reviewed=no tag, it is during an
edit session where I was quite deliberately doing specifically-TIGER aware
editing and correction. Assuming that a bunch of edits you have done before
actually WERE improving TIGER data "so good" (maybe so, maybe not) that you
might also (retrospectively) remove the tiger_reviewed=no tag might be
specious. It might not be specious, true, so OK, go ahead and remove the "no"
tag, but don't do so in a batch. I'd recommend a re-review of those data
before you remove "no" tags. Individually during a review that might go pretty
quickly, but not all at once with an assumption that sounds a lot like a lark
or a wish. Be careful!
Cautious sometimes (including here), rather than bold (but bold on occasion),
SteveA
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Re: [Talk-us] Streaming JOSM -- suggestions?
On Jul 7, 2020, at 4:37 PM, Bob Gambrel wrote: > A very good answer stevea. I suspect the changes I have been making would be > appropriate enough for removing tiger_reviewed=no. > > 1) almost always have driven the road as passenger taking notes in OSMAND+ > about pavement type > 2) in ID carefully aligning the roads > 3) in ID verifying that an extra road doesn't exist by looking at several > aerial phots sources before deleting > 4) setting pavement tpe > 5) setting lane counts > 6) putting in traffic signals where known > 7) noting stop signs where possible and adding stop sign nodes > > Have been less likely to change road type. For example have left minor rural > roads as residential if there are farms on it. I have made sure that service > roads and driveways are not naked as residential. > > From now on I will get rid of the tag as I walk through an area. > > Thanks for the two links and advice. Am not ready to exhaustively do an area > by using OT. For now just concentration on roads that I have been on and > taken notes about and have created and uploaded traces for. That all sounds great. As I have said, "no mapping task that positively contributes to OSM is too small." We all make contributions at our own pace, biting off what we are able to chew. "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." (Slaying the TIGER dragon involves individuals one at a time whacking away the tiger:reviewed=no tag). It's all good, SteveA ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Streaming JOSM -- suggestions?
A very good answer stevea. I suspect the changes I have been making would be appropriate enough for removing tiger_reviewed=no. 1) almost always have driven the road as passenger taking notes in OSMAND+ about pavement type 2) in ID carefully aligning the roads 3) in ID verifying that an extra road doesn't exist by looking at several aerial phots sources before deleting 4) setting pavement tpe 5) setting lane counts 6) putting in traffic signals where known 7) noting stop signs where possible and adding stop sign nodes Have been less likely to change road type. For example have left minor rural roads as residential if there are farms on it. I have made sure that service roads and driveways are not naked as residential. >From now on I will get rid of the tag as I walk through an area. Thanks for the two links and advice. Am not ready to exhaustively do an area by using OT. For now just concentration on roads that I have been on and taken notes about and have created and uploaded traces for. On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 5:43 PM stevea wrote: > Bob, thank you for asking. > > Good entry points for the history and what to do with TIGER data are > https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/TIGER and https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup > (respectively). One of the more important things you CAN do is that if you > truly do "fix up" TIGER data to about as good as it can be today (given > local knowledge — best — or aerial / satellite data like Esri or Bing) is > to remove the tiger_reviewed=no tag. As the latter wiki says, "the > practice to remove this tag varies" but I believe you should feel confident > removing it when you are personally proud of the resultant data in OSM > being truly reflective of what is in reality as you upload the changeset > containing it. And, it isn't simply "alignment" being accurate, all of the > tags on that datum should be snappy, modern and correct, too. It's not > hard, and can even be fun with some practice. > > There used to be some excellent tools for visualizing areas where TIGER > Review is needed, unfortunately, these are either old, fully deprecated or > replaced by less-than-as-useful tools (imo). It may be that Overpass Turbo > (OT) queries suit you, I use them in my large (data, geographically) state > of California on TIGER rail data, and the results (while somewhat large) > are not overwhelming, either to browsers, editors (like JOSM) where you > might edit them (or subsets of them) or humans. However, for highway=* > data, especially in a large (data, geographically) state where little TIGER > Review has already completed, you may very well find OT does get > overwhelmed. Try the query I (and others) use for California/Railroads: > > http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/PSt > > noting that it is easy to change the geocodeArea to your state and > "way[railway]" to something like "way[highway=tertiary]" > > Of course, you are asking the OT server to digest large amounts of data as > you do so, be prepared to (first) increase the timeout value (try > one-minute-at-a-time bump-ups, from 180 to 240, from 240 to 300...) and > (second) you might need to decrease the geocodeArea to a (unique) county, > rather than a whole state-at-a-time. Good luck, have fun, share with your > OSM friends how this can be a fun activity in your local area and let's > slay the TIGER dragon! > > SteveA ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Streaming JOSM -- suggestions?
Bob, thank you for asking. Good entry points for the history and what to do with TIGER data are https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/TIGER and https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup (respectively). One of the more important things you CAN do is that if you truly do "fix up" TIGER data to about as good as it can be today (given local knowledge — best — or aerial / satellite data like Esri or Bing) is to remove the tiger_reviewed=no tag. As the latter wiki says, "the practice to remove this tag varies" but I believe you should feel confident removing it when you are personally proud of the resultant data in OSM being truly reflective of what is in reality as you upload the changeset containing it. And, it isn't simply "alignment" being accurate, all of the tags on that datum should be snappy, modern and correct, too. It's not hard, and can even be fun with some practice. There used to be some excellent tools for visualizing areas where TIGER Review is needed, unfortunately, these are either old, fully deprecated or replaced by less-than-as-useful tools (imo). It may be that Overpass Turbo (OT) queries suit you, I use them in my large (data, geographically) state of California on TIGER rail data, and the results (while somewhat large) are not overwhelming, either to browsers, editors (like JOSM) where you might edit them (or subsets of them) or humans. However, for highway=* data, especially in a large (data, geographically) state where little TIGER Review has already completed, you may very well find OT does get overwhelmed. Try the query I (and others) use for California/Railroads: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/PSt noting that it is easy to change the geocodeArea to your state and "way[railway]" to something like "way[highway=tertiary]" Of course, you are asking the OT server to digest large amounts of data as you do so, be prepared to (first) increase the timeout value (try one-minute-at-a-time bump-ups, from 180 to 240, from 240 to 300...) and (second) you might need to decrease the geocodeArea to a (unique) county, rather than a whole state-at-a-time. Good luck, have fun, share with your OSM friends how this can be a fun activity in your local area and let's slay the TIGER dragon! SteveA ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Streaming JOSM -- suggestions?
Hello again, Martijn: This might not be a perfect fit, but perhaps helpful. I (and others) have refined how TIGER data for rail in the USA might or should be "Reviewed" (cleaned up over the long term) at https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/United_States/Railroads#Editing_Railroads_starting_from_TIGER_data Like TIGER data themselves, this is rather rough, but it has proven to "get the job done," even as it might do so slowly. If you could make a similar write-up (text-based instructions of your workflow to clean up TIGER data, whether roads, rail or whatever) that gets shared widely, I think many people might find that helpful. It is the experience of what people do and how they do it that makes for this sort of transfer of experience at "how to map" quite successful in OSM. I've seen it, it works and people tend to not only like it, they sort of crave it. "When the student is ready, the teacher arrives." Sometimes this is a "live streaming JOSM editing session," (great!), sometimes it's a "here are the steps of my workflow, read them, re-create them at your own pace, I hope you can learn from my examples." You never know! Thank you for offering your "streaming JOSM" session, it's a great idea, SteveA ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Streaming JOSM -- suggestions?
Hi all, I've been running 'Streaming JOSM' sessions on Tuesday evenings for the past couple of weeks and I am planning to do at least one more tomorrow at 7pm Mountain time[0]. The original idea stemmed from a tweet about cleaning up TIGER[1] and that is what I have been streaming the past couple of weeks. I would like to do something different and would love to hear your suggestions. What would you like to watch me map? (Assuming you'd be interested in watching a random person map OSM in the first place...) Suggestions very welcome! Martijn [0] Links to join here: https://www.meetup.com/OpenStreetMap-Utah/events/271617242/ [1] https://twitter.com/mvexel/status/1274812416337952768 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
