[Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
It's really frustrating to be continuously reading the debating that goes on in Tango-L and suspect that it is apples vs oranges that are being described. Here again, I suspect, that one person is talking about close embrace social dancing and the other about Nuevo that is danced with distance between the partners and often to hardly recognisable Tango musictwo very different animals if we are splitting hairs about communication between partners. It was Jean-Pierre who told how he often just 'shook his head' after finally seeing how a Tango-L poster danced in person. I would love to see a video of this give and take between partners...even Chichi Fromboli doesn't do this..he leads and she follows..but if there is something that I'm missing please post a video of it. Can you find a couple, on YouTube even, doing what you are suggesting? I can find dozens doing the lead/follow roles where not much choice is given the woman's role..except perhaps for a tap of the toe or a moment to embellish freely in place. Are we discussing apples and oranges? Is there a real debate going on or just another Red Herring that we are discussing? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
Mario wrote: I would love to see a video of this give and take between partners... You can't see it (at least not directly). You can only feel it. If you haven't, well,... Can you see the complex feedback mechanisms that people use for bipedal motion (walking) without falling flat on their faces, or the ballistic reflex that lets someone turn his head and continue to look the same way? Yet I can assure you they are there, and there are thousands of pages of peer-reviewed literature describing the mechanisms. *In*directly, it's very easy to see (to take one extreme -- as I said, there are all shades of greys, including leaders who will listen to the follower to see her response but insist on his interpretation of almost everything, and this does not apply to them) a leader who just leads without *any* regard for whether the follower is tracking (so the couple moves in compliant motion). It looks more like bungee-jumping than tango, and the follower looks more like she's handled like a sack of potatoes than someone to care for. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Message from Verena
I received this message from Verena. She has been trying to post it to the list with no luck. I didn't join this list for many years. Omar Vega's death made me return to it. To end all rumors before they begin: There were no drugs involved! He always hated drugs. At the moment nobody can tell what he died of. Even the doctors don't know. The only thing they know for sure is that he couldn breath any more. There are many stories about him. I can asure you, he could read. Not as well as people in the western world can, that' right. As a kid he never had the time to go to school. He had to survive. But he was no orphan. He entered school when he was an adult. And the friend who made him go to school, took him out to a milonga. Thats how he got in touch with tango. And tango became his life. Pepito Avellaneda was his most important teacher. For me, and I assume for many others too, Omar was el rey del traspie. Whoever danced with him, will probably never forget it. He once told me, that when he stars to dance he' enters a bubble. All music around him and nothing there except music and his partner. He's buried at Chacarita. And there will be a Milonga for him this wednesday in Buenos Aires. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
I would Mario wrote: love to see a video of this give and take between partners...even Chichi Fromboli doesn't do this..he leads and she follows.. In full knowledge that the flame throwers are in alignment, here goes: Mario - Yes, compelling me to slow down, speed up, etc as contributions to musicality are certainly part of this. But it can reach much deeper if one chooses to allow it to. Although I give this example in open embrace, we (my regular partner I) dance similarly, but with much more subtlety, in close embrace. And yes, probably 60% of the time we are apilado/close and 40% of the time open - or something like that. Spose I lead a back ocho to my right (follow's standing leg is her left). My lead indicates the degree to which rotates. I.e. - do we keep moving LOD? does she go side to side and we make no progress LOD? etc. As she rotates I step to my right to receive the ocho, but I give the lead indication for her to step prior to my stepping (I generally try to lead so that her foot moves prior to mine.) Spose that she sees that the floor behind me is clear (we DO NOT run into people or even threaten to!!!) and wants to play a little. She might over-rotate, stepping into me, and compelling my receiving step to actually be counter LOD. She has even been known to WAY over rotate and back secada my left (leaving) foot as I step to receive her ocho. Yes, that TOTALLY breaks frame, but so what? I am however compelled to deal with it, for example by leading her to subsequently pivot 180 deg CCW while I step right outside with my left foot. Now we are back in the embrace, but facing counter LOD. I now deal with it and get back to moving LOD. etc. Possibly not AT, but a hellovalota fun to dance like this: I lead, she follows in her own manner, I deal with it and then lead the next step, and she does something, and I deal with it... etc. Cheers, David _ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
Good question, Alexis! Over-explanation or discussion of any experience can only go so far. And at the end, it is still what it is, isn't it? Quoting Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nina Pesochinsky wrote: So what is the value of an over-explained tango? Ah - if we wander into the existential, what is the value of a mailing list discussing a dance? http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
--- On Thu, 9/25/08, David Thorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Spose that she sees that the floor behind me is clear (we DO NOT run into people or even threaten to!!!) and wants to play a little. She might over-rotate, stepping into me, and compelling my receiving step to actually be counter LOD. She has even been known to WAY over rotate and back secada my left (leaving) foot as I step to receive her ocho. Here, we can see the difference in this discussion. A more skilled follower would suggest an over-rotation and allow you to lead her against the LOD or to a back sacada or something completely different. If she's really good, she might even make you think that it was your idea in the first place. But at any point, she should be able to stop and allow you to do something else or continue with your original plan. Otherwise, she's backleading. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Nina Pesochinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nina Pesochinsky wrote: So what is the value of an over-explained tango? Ah--if we wander into the existential, what is the value of a mailing list discussing a dance? Good question, Alexis! Over-explanation or discussion of any experience can only go so far. And at the end, it is still what it is, isn't it? I agree with Nina that someone at a milonga insisting on sitting around at a table talking about the intricacies of tango rather than simply dancing would be both silly and somewhat of a buzz kill. But this isn't a milonga--it is a mailing list set up for the express purpose of talking about tango, and as such, I agree with Alexis that it seems strange to question people for merely indulging in the very premise of the mailing list. Huck ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
My question was not a rhetorical one. What is the value? David's tango is what it is no matter what anyone thinks about it. He feels compelled to explain it over and over again. At the end, his tango is what it is and everyone else's as well. So what is the value of extensive explanations! Tango is a dance, and ,as such, is a transitory experience. So whatever ochos or movements that are being discussed, they no longer exist and probably cannot be repeated. So what am I missing here? What is the value of an explanation of movements that no longer exist and can't be repeated? If it is a technical issue, then it could be just worked out in class. But what is the value of the verbal explanation? Please let me know because I am not getting it. Nina Quoting Huck Kennedy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Nina Pesochinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nina Pesochinsky wrote: So what is the value of an over-explained tango? Ah--if we wander into the existential, what is the value of a mailing list discussing a dance? Good question, Alexis! Over-explanation or discussion of any experience can only go so far. And at the end, it is still what it is, isn't it? I agree with Nina that someone at a milonga insisting on sitting around at a table talking about the intricacies of tango rather than simply dancing would be both silly and somewhat of a buzz kill. But this isn't a milonga--it is a mailing list set up for the express purpose of talking about tango, and as such, I agree with Alexis that it seems strange to question people for merely indulging in the very premise of the mailing list. Huck ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
Nina, I always enjoy your posts, but please remember that you're free to use your delete key. --- On Thu, 9/25/08, David Thorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know how you know my regular partner's skill level. I mentioned in a prior post that I can lead with clarity(?), and she will follow precisely what I lead. If I don't open the door for her to choose to over rotate, she doesn't do it. If I haven't opened the door for her to choose the back sacada, she doesn't do it. And indeed, she often does suggest things for me to lead, which suggestion I may accept or not. But generally I do because I find that level of conversation to be a very fun part of the dance. The point of my post was to provide a simple example to Mario of a different form of interaction than the I talk and you listen one that is often presented. Forgive me, everyone, since this is my third (and last) post of the day, but I didn't want David to think I think ill of his partner for the rest of the day. If you go back and reread your posts, David, you will see that it is of the I talk and you listen variety - only she's the one doing most of the talking. However, your current example is exactly what I'm talking about as a good thing. In other words, you previously presented your partner in a bad light. Glad to hear that you are not a wuss. Also, it sounds to me that you do dance as Sergio prescribes. Trini de Pittsburgh P.S. to Alexis: The average intermediate woman prefer to work on their embellishments instead of their musicality. I will often hear intermediate men say that they've stopped working on steps to concentrate more on their musicality, but I don't hear women professing the same thing. Women ask me all the time to teach them some leg thing, but they don't ask me to help them work on their syncopas. The guys do, though. Instead, lots of women seem to think that musicality is mostly a man's responsibility and don't walk the talk when it comes music. The good dancers, of course, work on everything. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
Thank you so much for your encouragement about the delete key. It is a lovely feature and I have practiced using it over the years with such enthusiasm that I dislocated a finger. However, I was not complaining about the useless posts. Instead, I asked a question about something that people seem to value. I would like to know what is valuable in extreme analysis of transitory experiences. Quoting Trini y Sean (PATangoS) [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nina, I always enjoy your posts, but please remember that you're free to use your delete key. --- On Thu, 9/25/08, David Thorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know how you know my regular partner's skill level. I mentioned in a prior post that I can lead with clarity(?), and she will follow precisely what I lead. If I don't open the door for her to choose to over rotate, she doesn't do it. If I haven't opened the door for her to choose the back sacada, she doesn't do it. And indeed, she often does suggest things for me to lead, which suggestion I may accept or not. But generally I do because I find that level of conversation to be a very fun part of the dance. The point of my post was to provide a simple example to Mario of a different form of interaction than the I talk and you listen one that is often presented. Forgive me, everyone, since this is my third (and last) post of the day, but I didn't want David to think I think ill of his partner for the rest of the day. If you go back and reread your posts, David, you will see that it is of the I talk and you listen variety - only she's the one doing most of the talking. However, your current example is exactly what I'm talking about as a good thing. In other words, you previously presented your partner in a bad light. Glad to hear that you are not a wuss. Also, it sounds to me that you do dance as Sergio prescribes. Trini de Pittsburgh P.S. to Alexis: The average intermediate woman prefer to work on their embellishments instead of their musicality. I will often hear intermediate men say that they've stopped working on steps to concentrate more on their musicality, but I don't hear women professing the same thing. Women ask me all the time to teach them some leg thing, but they don't ask me to help them work on their syncopas. The guys do, though. Instead, lots of women seem to think that musicality is mostly a man's responsibility and don't walk the talk when it comes music. The good dancers, of course, work on everything. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] (over)explained tango
Nina Pesochinsky wrote --- So what is the value of an over-explained tango? One or two people seemed to take this as a put-down of some sort. I thought it funny: a clever play on the words that David Thorn had just used, when he was talking about an over-turned ocho (one that turns more than 180 degrees) forced on him by a lady who stepped closer to him on the second half of the ocho than he was expecting. Or, reading her later response, I wondered if it was a question as well. As in What is the fuss all about? Why are you spending so many words on an evanescent experience? OK. I'll answer the question. As often happens, there are several forces working in the long detailed analyses of various subjects such as those you sometimes see on this list. Why (over)explain? For some people it's simply fun, a sort of game. For others, it's an attempt to help others on a subject they have mastered. Which often has the side benefit that the explanations force they themselves to re-think the subject, and to see it in a new (hopefully clearer!) light. For some it's the second part of that process, the clarifying of a subject to themselves, that is the reason for a discussion. And finally explaining can also be exhibitionism - look at me aren't I clever! In other venues I've seen or heard people argue that explaining psychological phenomena is either useless or destroys the phenomena being discussed. For instance, they urge you not to discuss love. Or enjoyment of a sunset. Or the almost (or actually) transcendent experience of a dance. What they don't understand is that left-brain analytical and right-brain intuitive thinking are not enemies, any more than our left arms and hands are enemies of our right arms and hands. They work together - or should. A person with a strong left arm/brain AND a strong right arm/brain is MUCH more effective than if they must fumble along using one side or the other. The best scientists and engineers are not only technically expert but also very creative. This often shows up in their hobbies, such as painting or playing or even composing music - and dancing. And the best artists are invariably experts in the technical side of their art. Painters, for instance, typically have exhaustively studied such subjects as perspective and shadows and the effects several colors in a scene will synergistically effect the experience of the viewer. They will spend hours trying out a new set of paintbrushes and paints, learning their idiosyncracies. They may endlessly paint the same scene over and over again with tiny variations, and spend much thought on why some variations succeed or fail. So it is with dance. There are stages or phases to becoming good, and to having those transcendent experiences. One is learning the very basics, such as how to place one's foot when stepping: heel, toe, and midsole, which leads when, how much force to use, how to move the body from station to station of a position. Which is both a physical and an intellectual process. These activities you do in classes and practicas. Then you revisit those basics, but this time in the midst of a dance, when the virtue of all that practice and analysis pays off - by letting your body and your subconscious handle the details, letting you forget the basics, while your consciousness floats upon and above those earthly concerns. And you simply DO. Larry de Los Angeles http://shapechangers.wordpress.com Click to find out what your future holds. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iieOol4Tm1VvpgUg7HuDWEgwls3semkJx6J7xgO2nAZylv7W6/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
