Re: [Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
Excellent post by Joe! Additional (lengthy) comments below. Joe Grohens wrote: The meaning of words is developed socially. In tango it is commonplace to find different people using the same words to mean very different things. This is very true, and the salient point of the recent exchanges about Changes of Direction and Volcadas and the like. Ultimately, the communication reaches an impasse when people start assigning overly technical meanings to these words. Trouble is, it's a symptom that such a person's dance has reached an impasse as well-- if only that person could see it. But there's a more down-to-earth level to this as well, which may help demonstrate why this sort of thing is not merely semantic, but an index of one's values and experience as a dancer. We teachers often use very simple words in our classes lessons: embrace or walking or connection-- none of these are mysterious terms. At first, new dancers take them for granted, assuming that they understand the dance because they understand the word. Then, as they discover the /thing/ and begin to deepen their knowledge, they realize they DIDN'T understand the word in the beginning at all. Very often, dancers will have a minor revelation at this point, smack themselves in the foreheads, and repeat precisely the same words they've heard in class or around the milongas, surprised at the new sense they make. We've all done it and we've all seen others do it. It happens because we understand the /thing/ freshly, and are revising the word's connotations (and denotations) accordingly. That is, our first-hand, direct experience with the /dance/ leads us to consider the word as something more meaningful, or more specific in its meaning. The danger is that, with a little learning of this type, the word can get locked in its new meaning or association, and become a technical or specific term that essentially is being used as shorthand for something very particular. The knowledge itself seeming like an achievement, the word becomes invested with personal triumph. And it's hard to give up that triumph when it has launched one past a former barrier. But-- it's just a renewed case of taking the word for granted. The word itself represents an idea, an experience, a degree of understanding: and by fixing its meaning too much, a dancer only /establishes/ another impasse. Namely, by turning a simple word from plain prose into jargon. Those of us who have (so to speak) gone well beyond this point, and sundered the cocoon of jargon for ourselves-- in our dance and in our talking about the dance-- are naturally going to take issue with those who insist that their stepping-stone is a monument. The words for us are poetic, not technical. To make them technical is a reduction, and moreover one that may very easily mislead someone who's on a more promising path. It is small-minded teaching, and it interferes with deeper progress and enjoyment. It makes deeper progress exponentially more difficult. It is crutches, not dancing. I see this happening all the time as a teacher and dancer, and it makes me increasingly critical of how teachers give their students half-truths and shortcuts. It leads to disappointment on the dance floor and-- after an initial burst of progress-- to a more serious and lasting retardation of growth. It afflicts teachers most of all: I've seen so many of them atrophy, largely because they seduce themselves into believing their own half-truths, they lose their curiosity, and they delude themselves into thinking they own something. I would even say it's a more dangerous professional hazard than physical fatigue, because it erodes the soul imagination of a dancer. In short: It's very easy to let words, once invested with the beginnings of direct discovery, define the dance. The more fruitful way is to keep the causality the other way around, with the dance providing the words with meaning and the words never hijacking the dance. That, after all, is what produces the initial breakthroughs: ego is the only thing that shuts off the valve thereafter. Again, bravo to Joe for a great post, whose ending presents this in an ego-free personal account. And bravo to those who patiently, tenaciously indicate when language is being pigeonholed-- though doing such so often invites others to get defensive of their own minor triumphs and to retaliate with accusations of mere semanticism, when in truth it's completely the other way around. Jake ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
Sacadas are another good example of the usefulness of the open/cross system understanding. ... From this, you can easily work out how many different Sacadas are possible while walking outside partner, left or right side in crossed or parallel feet. Actually you can't. All you can work out is how many different sacadas are possible in such a system of representation. And this tells you more about the limitations of the system than it does about the possibilities in the dance. Again, sacada is a term of description, not the name of a step. In real dancing, there are countless different sacadas. These so-called systems that reduce them to a small set of discrete step types serve only the needs of the paint-by-numbers tango instructors. Dancers have no need for them at all. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
Chris, Not sure I understand what you mean by sacada being a term of description rather than the name of a step. I always thought of a sacada as a step where one person displaces the foot (being lifted) of the other as they take a step. Surely there are many possible sacadas, so perhaps it would be better to say sacada is a category of steps, and you have to add more information to actually name a given step - leader's right sacada on follower's trailing left foot as she does a right forward ocho. But how is this different than ocho as a name of a step, since there are likewise several different versions. Maybe we're playing with words, but if you could elaborate a bit on what you mean... J Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 00:55:00 +0100 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tango-L@mit.edu CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses? Sacadas are another good example of the usefulness of the open/cross system understanding. ... From this, you can easily work out how many different Sacadas are possible while walking outside partner, left or right side in crossed or parallel feet. Actually you can't. All you can work out is how many different sacadas are possible in such a system of representation. And this tells you more about the limitations of the system than it does about the possibilities in the dance. Again, sacada is a term of description, not the name of a step. In real dancing, there are countless different sacadas. These so-called systems that reduce them to a small set of discrete step types serve only the needs of the paint-by-numbers tango instructors. Dancers have no need for them at all. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l _ Reveal your inner athlete and share it with friends on Windows Live. http://revealyourinnerathlete.windowslive.com?locale=en-usocid=TXT_TAGLM_WLYIA_whichathlete_us ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
Larry, Sacadas are another good example of the usefulness of the open/cross system understanding. Walking outside partner on the right or left sides, I can always do a Sacada on the lady's trailing leg. But the Sacadas and their results will be very different depending on whether mine or my partners step is crossed or open. For example, if my step is crossed, the Sacada will be with the outside of my leg and with the inside if my step is open. If my partners step is open, the Sacada will be on the inside of her leg and will result in her leg swinging back whereas, if her step is crossed, my Sacada will be on the outside of her leg and will result in her leg crossing in front of her standing leg. From this, you can easily work out how many different Sacadas are possible while walking outside partner, left or right side in crossed or parallel feet. Interesting, uh? Jack - Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let's try the 8CB. Step 1. An open relation. I (the leader) can do step 2 as a sacada on her trailing right foot. This might help lead a parada or a boleo, for instance. Step 2. An open relation. I can do step 3 as a sacada instead of the usual step 3. Step 3. A crossed relation. I can do step 4 as a sacada, but my partner and I will have trouble. (We can still do a figure beginning in a sacada, but to do it smoothly we both must be quite expert and have a lot of body control.) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
Jack Dylan wrote I [took] some time and trouble to explain [the difference between an 'open' step and a 'crossed' step] but received no feedback. I hope you found my comments useful. They were useful. Thanks! Part of the difficulty understanding what open and crossed mean is the terminolgy (in English, anyway). Naveira etc. are not talking about an open STEP, or crossed STEP, which would refer to a step or a stance of one person. They are talking about the relation between two people. (A crossed STEP is when a person crosses one foot in front of or behind another foot. Step 5 of the 8CB is a crossed step. When a man leads a molinete he may cross one foot behind another so he can do a half turn in place while she walks around him.) I have been mulling over just what good it does to know the difference between an open and crossed relation. Let's try the 8CB. Step 1. An open relation. I (the leader) can do step 2 as a sacada on her trailing right foot. This might help lead a parada or a boleo, for instance. Step 2. An open relation. I can do step 3 as a sacada instead of the usual step 3. Step 3. A crossed relation. I can do step 4 as a sacada, but my partner and I will have trouble. (We can still do a figure beginning in a sacada, but to do it smoothly we both must be quite expert and have a lot of body control.) That's what I've figured out so far. I should mention that years ago when Fabian Salas began teaching in Los Angeles I took all his classes. The first few he discussed open/crossed and other parts of his and Naveira's system. Later he quit doing that. I suspect their system is good for thinking up new ways of doing movements, but not for improvising them while dancing. Larry de Los Angeles Play it loud with a new car stereo! Click here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iigWK8SwmpnzXJzv0qPHhtIjTVfj8SXPz7VOCUdcXBQgonAOm/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
Larry wrote: I suspect their system [crossed vs open]is good for thinking up new ways of doing movements, but not for improvising them while dancing. I beg to differ. Generally, I can not tell you which (right or left) foot my follow is on, but I try to NEVER loose track of our body relationship as defined by 1) crossed vs parallel feet and 2) whether my follow's position is cross or open. Those two bits of information are what allow me to dance improvisationally, creating movements new to me on the fly, and to go beyond the simple rhythmic modulations and pattern modifications that often pass for improvisation. Cheers David _ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
