Supression of "display name" in Message List (was: Moderators Announcement -- the change must be reversed immediately!)
Guten Tag, The Bat Beta, on Dienstag, 24. Juli 2018 um 23:13 wrote Marck D Pearlstone: TBB>>And I want to remind the Ritlabs people that they still need TBB>> to repair the suppression of the Authors in various mailing list TBB>> systems, notably in Yahoo Groups, what I had pointed out to them TBB>> many months earlier, and it TheBat is still fraudulently cheating TBB>> me about the author of those mails. > I have to stop you here. > This is not TB doing this. It is Yahoo. Yahoo did, as you write, munging the from: headers, i.e. falsifying the actual author's address. But the name and adress of the author is still visible in the display-name. It is TheBat! - since I do not know which level - which does hide the display-name in the message list. This is from a acutal Yahoo group message (name of original author changed): > X-Original-From: John Doe > From: "John Doe john@gmail.com [dope_x_resistancela]" > > Sender: dope_x_resistanc...@yahoogroups.com Yahoo correctly indicates the mailbox address of the mailing list as the SENDER, and keeps the actual author FROM by prefixing an "X-Orignal-" to it. Yahoo then takes the original FROM as the display name of the new FROM, appending it with the list name in brackets. TheBat! does not show the display name in the message list, so that the columns for "from" and "from (adr)" show identical content. Only the selected message preview, the display name of the Yahoo-modified FROM is visible. BTW -- maybe there should be a column selectable with only the display name, without address? -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Lüko Willms mailto:wil...@luekowillms.de Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Hello Marck, Wednesday, July 25, 2018, 4:07:16 AM, you wrote: > On 25 July 2018 at 10:40 p.stev...@libero.it wrote and made these > points >>> Change to list settings >>> --- L>> C'mon, this is nuts. Look at the result! > I have temporarily reverted to original behaviour while we explore our > options. Much appreciated. -- Cheers, Thomas. Travel Map: http://matadornetwork.com/travel-map/db757901ff009eef93a2fc09521fb6bf-1482632877 Message reply created with The Bat! 8.4 under Windows 10.0 Build 17134 Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Hello Marck, Wednesday, July 25, 2018, 7:07:16 AM, you wrote: MP> I have temporarily reverted to original behaviour while we explore our MP> options. Thank you. That makes lot's of sense and permanently reverted makes the most sense. -- Best regards, Richardmailto:the...@newmangroup.com -- Using The Bat! v8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) on Windows v10 17134 Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Hi Marck, > I have temporarily reverted to original behaviour while we > explore our options. however the 'new', or rather, 'old' mails to the list on Mail-Archive.com are now no longer displayed. https://www.mail-archive.com/tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com/ -- Best wishes Miroslav BAT-MAIL.DE.VU - http://thebat.bplaced.net Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Hello Marck, Wednesday, July 25, 2018, 1:07:16 PM, among other things, you wrote: MP> On 25 July 2018 at 10:40 p.stev...@libero.it wrote and made these MP> points >>> Change to list settings >>> --- L>> C'mon, this is nuts. Look at the result! MP> I have temporarily reverted to original behaviour while we explore our MP> options. I hope this will be permanent, not just temporary. -- Best regards, Roger :flag-SouthAfrica: The Bat! Version 8.5.8 (64-bit) POP3, on Windows, version 10 0, build 17134 and Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Hello Marck, > I have temporarily reverted to original behaviour while we explore our > options. That is good news :-)) -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (Els Poblets (Alicante - Spain) Using The Bat! Version 8.5.8 (64-bit) on Windows 10.0 Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
On 25 July 2018 at 10:40 p.stev...@libero.it wrote and made these points >> Change to list settings >> --- L> C'mon, this is nuts. Look at the result! I have temporarily reverted to original behaviour while we explore our options. -- Cheers -- Marck D Pearlstone -- List moderator and fellow end user TB! v8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) on Windows 10.0.17134 pgpO4q1JBncHM.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com: > Greetings Bat Fans, > > Change to list settings > --- C'mon, this is nuts. Look at the result! -- Luca - e-mail: p.stevens at libero.it Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Hello The, Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 8:44:36 AM, you wrote: [...] > Welcome, all, to the new TBBETA mailing list Tower of Babel. > While I understand the problem that Max has asked to be solved, I'm > not at all happy with this solution and I'm open to suggestions. Try this from the Wikipedia entry that author "The Bat Beta" posted on Tue, 24 Jul 2018 10:38:19 +0200: QUOTE Mailing lists Mailing lists are a frequent cause of legitimate breakage of the original author's domain DKIM signature. They routinely change the SPF-authenticated domain, and therefore break DMARC alignment. John Levine, a well known mail expert, has collected a list of all the not-so-broken possible workarounds.[18] Several mailing lists software now propose various options to deal with members posting from a domain with p=reject. For instance Mailman 2.1.16 (16 October 2013) and onward have such options.[4] From: rewriting One of the most popular and least intrusive workarounds consists in rewriting the From: header field. The original author's address can then be added to the Reply-To: field.[19] Rewriting can range from just appending .INVALID[note 2] to the domain name, to allocating a temporary user ID to forward replies through the list;[note 3] where an opaque ID is used, this keeps the user's "real" email address private from the list. In addition, the display name can be changed so as to show both the author and the list (or list operator).[21] Those examples would result, respectively, in one of: From: John Doe From: John Doe <243...@mailinglist.example.org> From: John Doe via MailingList and Reply-To: John Doe The Last line, Reply-To: has to be designed in order to accommodate reply-to-author functionality, in case reply-to-list function is covered by the preceding change in the From: header field. That way, the original meaning of those fields is reversed. Altering the author is not fair in general, and can break the expected relationship between meaning and appearance of that datum. It also breaks automated use of it. There are communities which use mailing lists to coordinate their work, and deploy tools which use the From: field to attribute authorship to attachments.[22] . UNQUOTE Otherwise, mailing lists will become unusable and hence a thing of the past. -- Cheers, Thomas. Travel Map: http://matadornetwork.com/travel-map/db757901ff009eef93a2fc09521fb6bf-1482632877 Message reply created with The Bat! 8.4 under Windows 10.0 Build 17134 Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement -- the change must be reversed immediately!
On 24 July 2018 at 20:43 Lüko Willms wrote and made these points ... TBB>And I want to remind the Ritlabs people that they still need TBB> to repair the suppression of the Authors in various mailing list TBB> systems, notably in Yahoo Groups, what I had pointed out to them TBB> many months earlier, and it TheBat is still fraudulently cheating TBB> me about the author of those mails. I have to stop you here. This is not TB doing this. It is Yahoo. Doubtless for exactly the same reasons Max asked me to make our server conform to this (new and horrible) standard. The Bat does not change any headers and putting pressure on Ritlabs for this particular issue will only damage your credibility. In the 2nd week of May 2014, Yahoo started munging from: headers. They now change the from: header to... "sendername senderemail [listname]" TB is just showing you what is there. No more, no less. -- Cheers -- Marck D Pearlstone -- List moderator and fellow end user TB! v8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) on Windows ORG="E-mailaholics International"10.0.17134 pgpsiOWJTweAU.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement -- the change must be reversed immediately!
On 24 July 2018 at 20:43 tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com wrote and made these points ... >> The X-Sender is not a useful indication as it can not be seen in >> message list header. ... TBB>The FROM address is meant to be the actual author of the text TBB> being sent, or who has composed it. TBB>The recent change puts this on the head and presents the TBB> technical agent sending out, the mailing list processor, as the TBB> author. This is fraud, swindle, imposture, this is criminal. I agree. TBB>Let me cite from the RFC on Internet mail (Section 3.6.2. TBB> Originator Fields, of RFC 5322 ) TBB>The "From:" field specifies the author(s) of the message,?? TBB> that is, the mailbox(es) of the person(s) or system(s) TBB> responsible?? for the writing of the message. TBB>The "Sender:" field specifies the?? mailbox of the agent TBB> responsible for the actual transmission of the?? message. So how did the authors of the DMARC spec get away with putting in validation conditions that complete violate RFC when it comes to mailing list operation? ... TBB>This latest change to suppress the author and to cheat the TBB> reader by the fraudulent pretense that the sender is the actual TBB> author has to be reverted immediately. I am getting close to doing so... My server does DKIM validation and list messages do not get flagged. TBB> Anybody who is operating a mailing list or even programming TBB> and selling (!) a mailing program should know that this grave TBB> violation of the basic rule for Internet mail must not occur in any case. ... TBB>And I want to remind the Ritlabs people that they still need TBB> to repair the suppression of the Authors in various mailing list TBB> systems, notably in Yahoo Groups, what I had pointed out to them TBB> many months earlier, and it TheBat is still fraudulently cheating TBB> me about the author of those mails. I'm not sure what you mean here. I'm not seeing anything amiss (other than everything about this current config change, which seems completely wrong to me. I have asked the server admin if there's anything he can do about upgrading the Mailman to a more recent release, better suited to be used like this without making such an almighty mess. -- Cheers -- Marck D Pearlstone -- List moderator and fellow end user TB! v8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) on Windows ORG="E-mailaholics International"10.0.17134 pgpJieZ4d6X2G.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement -- the change must be reversed immediately!
Guten Tag, The Bat Beta, am Dienstag, 24. Juli 2018 um 17:58 schrieben Sie: > Hello tbbeta, > Unfortunately i loose in mailing list a the track who sent me which > mail. > The X-Sender is not a useful indication as it can not be seen in > message list header. There is no X-Sender header in the email which I reply to with this one. Besides, the SENDER in this case is the mailing list processor, the program mailman, respectively the specific instance of it. The FROM address is meant to be the actual author of the text being sent, or who has composed it. The recent change puts this on the head and presents the technical agent sending out, the mailing list processor, as the author. This is fraud, swindle, imposture, this is criminal. Let me cite from the RFC on Internet mail (Section 3.6.2. Originator Fields, of RFC 5322 ) The "From:" field specifies the author(s) of the message, that is, the mailbox(es) of the person(s) or system(s) responsible for the writing of the message. The "Sender:" field specifies the mailbox of the agent responsible for the actual transmission of the message. For example, if a secretary were to send a message for another person, the mailbox of the secretary would appear in the "Sender:" field and the mailbox of the actual author would appear in the "From:" field. This latest change to suppress the author and to cheat the reader by the fraudulent pretense that the sender is the actual author has to be reverted immediately. Anybody who is operating a mailing list or even programming and selling (!) a mailing program should know that this grave violation of the basic rule for Internet mail must not occur in any case. I am very seriously angry about that. And I want to remind the Ritlabs people that they still need to repair the suppression of the Authors in various mailing list systems, notably in Yahoo Groups, what I had pointed out to them many months earlier, and it TheBat is still fraudulently cheating me about the author of those mails. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Lüko Willms mailto:wil...@luekowillms.de Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Hello tbbeta, Unfortunately i loose in mailing list a the track who sent me which mail. The X-Sender is not a useful indication as it can not be seen in message list header. -- Regards Gwen Using The Bat! Version 8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) (32-bit) on Windows 10.0 (Build 17134 ) Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Dear TBBeta Fellows, On 24 July 2018 at 15:17 somebody, somewhere wrote and made these points >>> It is really annoying to not see directly in het header of a message >>> who has sent it. It is a kind of anonymizing I do not appreciate at >>> all. Agreed. >> For info purposes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMARC TBB> "system designed to detect and prevent email spoofing " TBB> the best protection for the spoofer is to make him invisible. TBB> What you achieved. Helping the spoofers. Hide his identification. >> Just so we can discuss Maxim's request and Marck's fulfillment >> knowledgeably. ... TBB>Anybody can put my signature in the mail body, but falsifying TBB> my email address is a little bit more difficult. The latest TBB> change to this list is the biggest help for spammers and crooks and other criminals. Welcome, all, to the new TBBETA mailing list Tower of Babel. While I understand the problem that Max has asked to be solved, I'm not at all happy with this solution and I'm open to suggestions. -- Cheers -- Marck D Pearlstone -- List moderator and fellow end user TB! v8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) on Windows 10.0.17134 pgpdw1MMJd6ED.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Guten Tag, tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com, am Dienstag, 24. Juli 2018 um 10:38 schrieben Sie: >> It is really annoying to not see directly in het header of a message >> who has sent it. It is a kind of anonymizing I do not appreciate at >> all. > For info purposes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMARC "system designed to detect and prevent email spoofing " the best protection for the spoofer is to make him invisible. What you achieved. Helping the spoofers. Hide his identification. > Just so we can discuss Maxim's request and Marck's fulfillment > knowledgeably. So we have in the Internet on the one hand the turning of Web browsers like Firefox into tools for surveillance of the populace, more and more strangling the users's means to protect their privacy, and on the other hand the help for spoofers by hiding their identity. Anybody can put my signature in the mail body, but falsifying my email address is a little bit more difficult. The latest change to this list is the biggest help for spammers and crooks and other criminals. Unbelievable. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Lüko Willms mailto:wil...@luekowillms.de Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Hello Tbbeta! On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 10:12:10 AM you wrote: >> Change to list settings >> I have received the following request from Max Masiutin to modify the >> way the list addresses out bound mail and have changed the Mailman >> settings accordingly. > It is really annoying to not see directly in het header of a message > who has sent it. It is a kind of anonymizing I do not appreciate at > all. For info purposes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMARC Just so we can discuss Maxim's request and Marck's fulfillment knowledgeably. -- Dierk Haasis [DH² Publishing] www.DH2Publishing.info Twitter: Evo2Me 8.5.8 on Windows 10 0 17134 If all the world's economists were stretched end to end, they still would not reach a conclusion. [George Bernard Shaw] Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
> Change to list settings > I have received the following request from Max Masiutin to modify the > way the list addresses out bound mail and have changed the Mailman > settings accordingly. It is really annoying to not see directly in het header of a message who has sent it. It is a kind of anonymizing I do not appreciate at all. If a message has no name in the footer, only looking in the RFC-822 header the name can be found and the mailadress if e private reaction would be appropriate. Kind regards, Gunivortus Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Guten Tag, tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com, this is really a very negative change. Already TheBat! does not show the author of mails on Yahoo mailing lists (and certainly others more which I don't know), and now on TheBat's own list, the senders are blanked out completely. Everything is now anonymous... am Dienstag, 24. Juli 2018 um 00:19 schrieben Sie: > Change to list settings > --- > I have received the following request from Max Masiutin to modify the > way the list addresses out bound mail and have changed the Mailman > settings accordingly. >> Please modify list settings for TBBETA and other lists so that all >> the senders addresses (From, Reply-To, etc) are replaced to the list >> email rather then the email of the person who sent a message to the list. >> We have discussed this issue with you about two years ago. Now it is the >> time to make the change. >> Otherwise, DMARC and DKIM give errors on messages that I send to the list. >> Nowadays, when DMARC and DKIM are becoming more widespread and >> strict, we have to make the change. Otherwise my messages are flagged as >> DMARC/DKIM-fail. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Lüko Willms mailto:wil...@luekowillms.de Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Moderators Announcement
Greetings Bat Fans, Change to list settings --- I have received the following request from Max Masiutin to modify the way the list addresses out bound mail and have changed the Mailman settings accordingly. > Please modify list settings for TBBETA and other lists so that all > the senders addresses (From, Reply-To, etc) are replaced to the list > email rather then the email of the person who sent a message to the list. > > We have discussed this issue with you about two years ago. Now it is the time > to make the change. > > Otherwise, DMARC and DKIM give errors on messages that I send to the list. > > Nowadays, when DMARC and DKIM are becoming more widespread and > strict, we have to make the change. Otherwise my messages are flagged as > DMARC/DKIM-fail. -- Cheers -- Marck D Pearlstone -- List moderator and fellow end user TB! v8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) on Windows 10.0.17134 pgpPG7czCP1Vp.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
