Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Hi there! On 2 Nov 99, at 0:59, Christopher J. Trybowski wrote about "Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: R": Before the crash he had 1 primary and 1 extended partition, 2 logicals on the latter. After the crash, he had only *one* (primary) partition. The rest of the partitions just perished. The data lost. On the primary partition that seemed to survive all the data *but windows and office* was trashed, too. Did he really lost everything? AFAIK Windows sometimes messes up the partition table, but it is reversible (after longer or shorter time of calculating new one manually)... He's a dumb, I told you:-) He couldn't see his data, *then* the second thing he did was formatting his HDD. If *i* were there, I would save (at least, almost) all he had their. Windows never wipes what it deletes. Direct disk editing could help, of course:-) BTW, I'm not sure this message will be ever distributed to the list: I'm getting some odd problems with my subscription recently:-(( SY, Alex (St.Petersburg, Russia) -- Thought for the day: Trouble strikes in series of threes, but when working around the house the next job after a series of three is not the fourth job -- it's the start of a brand new series of three. --- PGP public keys on keyservers: 0xA2194BF9 (RSA); 0x214135A2 (DH/DSS) fingerprints: F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6 7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA) A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589 9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) --- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re[2]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Wednesday, November 03, 1999 Hello Alexander, Wednesday, Wednesday, November 03, 1999, you wrote: Alexander Hi there! Alexander On 2 Nov 99, at 0:59, Christopher J. Trybowski wrote Alexander about "Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: R": Before the crash he had 1 primary and 1 extended partition, 2 logicals on the latter. After the crash, he had only *one* (primary) partition. The rest of the partitions just perished. The data lost. On the primary partition that seemed to survive all the data *but windows and office* was trashed, too. Did he really lost everything? AFAIK Windows sometimes messes up the partition table, but it is reversible (after longer or shorter time of calculating new one manually)... Alexander He's a dumb, I told you:-) He couldn't see his data, *then* the Alexander second thing he did was formatting his HDD. If *i* were there, I Alexander would save (at least, almost) all he had their. Windows never Alexander wipes what it deletes. Direct disk editing could help, of course:-) Tiramisu... does miracles... But second and third partitions need some calculations to give it a decent starting point. Alexander BTW, I'm not sure this message will be ever distributed to the Alexander list: I'm getting some odd problems with my subscription Alexander recently:-(( it got there. But anyway formatted or not, one can still get the data of in most cases as long as you donot write data back to the drive and even then data can still be recovered... Alexander SY, Alex Alexander (St.Petersburg, Russia) Best regards, tracer Using theBAT 1.36 mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] NOTE: 1 MAILRUN PER DAY ONLY -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Monday, November 01, 1999, 11:28:35 AM, Ali wrote: Many OSS programmers chimed in at that point to say that they get paid to develop OSS. That's the funding I'm speaking about. If this type of funding doesn't in anyway apply to GNOME and KDE development, then I stand corrected. The point, though, is that since the code is put into Open Source to be accepted and/or rejected on the technical merits, it is not subject to the same manipulation as close source. These programmers are getting paid to code, not for the code. There is a subtle difference. Exactly. It's windows. It's therefore not the users fault when that frustrating crash occurs. :) They chose to use it, didn't they? I'd wager that if they weren't imposed with Word and PowerPoint that the grand total with Bash would be less. :P They still need to do their wordprocessing and make slides for their boss's next presentation after learning Bash. :) My point was that if they weren't saddled with piece of shit software to do those two tasks they would have a lot more free time. IE... TimeEffort(Word + Powerpoint) TimeEffort(Other, better applications + associated support programs) -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Wednesday, November 03, 1999, 9:06:50 AM, Kevin wrote: They chose to use it, didn't they? I honestly don't know very many people who have a choice of what OS they use in their jobs. I honestly don't know of very many IT managers that don't have a choice. It is still a (l)user's problem. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re[3]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Hi, Exactly. It's windows. It's therefore not the users fault when that frustrating crash occurs. :) They chose to use it, didn't they? I honestly don't know very many people who have a choice of what OS they use in their jobs. OK, so 99.9% of the people don't have a choice. And yes it does become a problem FOR them. But I think the point was that it isn't the fault of the "end user" that experiences the crash in many to most of the situations. Thanks, Kevin Using The Bat! 1.36 Under Windows NT4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 3 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Wednesday, November 03, 1999, 9:33:41 AM, Kevin wrote: OK, so 99.9% of the people don't have a choice. Isn't that a little high given the amount of home PCs and number of businesses that do allow users to chose? And yes it does become a problem FOR them. But I think the point was that it isn't the fault of the "end user" that experiences the crash in many to most of the situations. I still do not think that is the case. If it were the case then I would be experiencing constant problems on the many Windows machines I have used both at work and at home. Simply put, I do not experience even remotely the amount of problems I hear others complaining about. Now, given the numerous machines and flavors of Windows I've used on those machines I think we can rule out "luck" as a factor. What is left is that, clearly, I am doing something right and they are doing something wrong. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re[2]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Hi, Wednesday, November 03, 1999, 9:33:41 AM, Kevin wrote: OK, so 99.9% of the people don't have a choice. Isn't that a little high given the amount of home PCs and number of businesses that do allow users to chose? No, I don't think so. In businesses not very many allow you to chose on your own anymore and most people I know want to have the same type of machine at home that they do at work for obvious reasons. (Yes I know that is technically a choice, but it wouldn't be a good choice to use totally different OS's and applications at work and home in most cases) And yes it does become a problem FOR them. But I think the point was that it isn't the fault of the "end user" that experiences the crash in many to most of the situations. I still do not think that is the case. If it were the case then I would be experiencing constant problems on the many Windows machines I have used both at work and at home. Simply put, I do not experience even remotely the amount of problems I hear others complaining about. Now, given the numerous machines and flavors of Windows I've used on those machines I think we can rule out "luck" as a factor. What is left is that, clearly, I am doing something right and they are doing something wrong. There are many degrees of "knowing what you are doing" and so I would hope that you, being an expert, would know how to *avoid* the problems that others might experience. But surely you can't possibly expect everyone to have the same amount of training and experience as yourself when you earn a living off of "knowing". Kevin Boylan Using The Bat! 1.36 Under Windows NT4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 3 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Wednesday, November 03, 1999, 12:11:59 PM, Kevin wrote: Actually, it would be better to have a variety. Makes viruses kind of hard to propagate, doesn't it? Probably, but I wouldn't make my choice of OS at home based on that. :-) No, but it is about as valid a reason as any other. IE... not all that valid. I would *guess*, that most of what you know about Unix too, you learned through experience, not though formal training. O-Bing. I just happen to have more formal training on Unix and I've actually read books (O'Reilly) about it compared to Unix and Mac which I have done neither of those. I would tend to disagree. If you live, eat, and breath computers all day, every day like some of us do, it becomes easy at some point to instinctively understand things and know what's going on behind the scenes. No, all it takes is a little common sense. I understand computers at about the same level that I understand my car. Granted, I can't build a car from component parts, but then that is just a difference of scale. I understand my VCR at the same level. I understand a lot of things at that same conceptual level. All it takes is some basic observation, reasoning, memorization and logic. Computers are no different than anything else in that regard. Now... you guessed it, they complain because they have to wade through so many hits. They want only the hits that they can use right then and they and want the software to weed out the rest, but how in the *#^ is the software supposed to know? Exactly. And people wonder why I prefer Yahoo! to Altavista or Excite. 35,000 hits looks impressive but it is exactly as useful as 0 hits. Try telling that to a lot of people, however. So, we try to modify and enhance software, not necessarily to coddle these people, but maybe to make life easier for those of us who have to do the support. No, it is coddling, plain and simple. Call it what it is. If we gets calls about something enough times, we figure we'd get less calls if we make a change (if it makes sense). Now I guess M$ has tried to do this but they seem to have made a mess when they did it. That doesn't mean that everyone has to make a mess when they do it though. No, it does. By playing that game, by catering to every little newbie whim you end up with a system that is not internally consistent and is annoying to the majority of people. This isn't just M$, it is M$ and Mac and, as you pointed out, yourself. It doesn't happen only in technology, either, it is just in technology people equate it to magic. "Why can't it do it? I can imagine it!" Those developers that finally do it the right way... maybe by having good judgement and not trying to put in everything including the kitchen sink, but, instead, putting in the things that make the most sense... are the ones that have the best software. Amazingly enough, that best software happens to be the ones that started this whole discussion. The ones that are "hard to learn" and "cryptic." I can boil down this down to a statement I heard a while ago. "NT is designed so an idiot can administer the server. Make it so an idiot can do that and only idiot's will." NT is the laughing stock of IT, trust me on this. It is the baby of managers because they figure if *they* could do it, surely their techs would appreciate something so "simple." What they don't realize is that something "simple" is really complex. Sure, setting it up may be "easier" (I don't agree, actually, after using Debian) but to do complex things means a *lot* more work. "So simple and idiot could do it" and "powerful" is a holy grail that will never, *EVER* be found. Ever. Yet we still try to cater to that idea instead of putting our foot down and saying, "Look, it does the job. Get off your fat, chicken-wing-eating-ass, *READ* a little bit, try engaging your *BRAIN* for once and find out that with a little effort you will be *more* productive with things the way they are now than if we tried to make it jump through every hoop your 2-neuron brain can come up with to avoid work!" "All I want to do is turn it on and do work." Tough, you need to learn a little bit. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re[2]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Hi, Probably, but I wouldn't make my choice of OS at home based on that. :-) No, but it is about as valid a reason as any other. IE... not all that valid. No, not as valid a reason as "I don't want to work in two different word processors, I want to be able to transfer stuff from work to home", etc. So it's not as valid a reason as any others. I would tend to disagree. If you live, eat, and breath computers all day, every day like some of us do, it becomes easy at some point to instinctively understand things and know what's going on behind the scenes. No, all it takes is a little common sense. You really believe that? You really believe all those years of experience mean nothing when it comes to being able to figure out why things are happening? You think common sense alone will make someone that is not technically oriented, be able to understand all that technically oriented stuff? OK. :-\ Now... you guessed it, they complain because they have to wade through so many hits. They want only the hits that they can use right then and they and want the software to weed out the rest, but how in the *#^ is the software supposed to know? Exactly. And people wonder why I prefer Yahoo! to Altavista or Excite. 35,000 hits looks impressive but it is exactly as useful as 0 hits. Try telling that to a lot of people, however. We agree there. The difference here is that we're talking about people that want computers to do all of THEIR job for them. They think computers should make it so they don't have to think or do anything anymore and that ain't right. So, we try to modify and enhance software, not necessarily to coddle these people, but maybe to make life easier for those of us who have to do the support. No, it is coddling, plain and simple. Call it what it is. I call it reality. You're not going to change the users. They don't care what you expect of them and they are paying the bills. If we gets calls about something enough times, we figure we'd get less calls if we make a change (if it makes sense). Now I guess M$ has tried to do this but they seem to have made a mess when they did it. That doesn't mean that everyone has to make a mess when they do it though. No, it does. By playing that game, by catering to every little newbie whim you end up with a system that is not internally consistent and is annoying to the majority of people. No it doesn't, not if you do it right. I'm not talking about catering to every little newbie whim... read the (if it makes sense). If everyone asks for something different, everything doesn't get put in. A little intelligence and judgement goes into what actually ends up going in. This isn't just M$, it is M$ and Mac and, as you pointed out, yourself. I don't think I pointed that out at all. Those developers that finally do it the right way... maybe by having good judgement and not trying to put in everything including the kitchen sink, but, instead, putting in the things that make the most sense... are the ones that have the best software. Amazingly enough, that best software happens to be the ones that started this whole discussion. The ones that are "hard to learn" and "cryptic." This is YOUR opinion and is typically the case for a lot of power users, not for occasional users. Most users are the latter. Again, they don't care if the support guy expects them to read up on things. There's nothing that's going to make them. I can boil down this down to a statement I heard a while ago. "NT is designed so an idiot can administer the server. Make it so an idiot can do that and only idiot's will." Bashing NT has nothing to do with this mailing list or what this thread started out about (though about 90% of your messages seem to end up going in that direction). What it was about is people asking for a new feature here and there which is certainly normal. Some should go in, some shouldn't and it ends up being the choice of the developers and that goes according to who they see their users as. If they add a new feature, convenience or not, doesn't mean The Bat! will all of a sudden turn into NT, or Oriffice, or anything else M$ as long as they do it right. Tough, you need to learn a little bit. That's just it. They don't HAVE to, so they probably never will. The idiots rule. Kevin -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Wednesday, November 03, 1999, 3:52:51 PM, Kevin wrote: No, not as valid a reason as "I don't want to work in two different word processors, I want to be able to transfer stuff from work to home", etc. So it's not as valid a reason as any others. Those are no more valid at all when you start working with formats that are open and free instead of being locked into proprietary formats. Gee, using something more efficient at home, what a concept! No, all it takes is a little common sense. You really believe that? You really believe all those years of experience mean nothing when it comes to being able to figure out why things are happening? You think common sense alone will make someone that is not technically oriented, be able to understand all that technically oriented stuff? OK. :-\ Yes, I do. My years of experience with computers doesn't help me understand how my car works, or does it? Understanding how my car works doesn't help me understand how electricity in my house works, or does it? Understanding how my house works doesn't help me understand basic economic theory, or does it? The one commonality to them all are the four things I described. 1: Observation 2: Reasoning 3: Memorization 4: Logic AKA, common sense. Computers are easy because not because I've worked with them for years and years and YEARS... They were easy when I first started! They were easy when I was *9* and my parents bought their first computer. They are as easy as understanding my car; understanding electricity; understanding basic economic theory (imagine following a dollar some day). It is that basic level of understanding that most people *refuse* to get to. I'm not saying that everyone needs to be able to whip out perl code off the top of their head to have a basic understanding. I do think, though, that they should know that a RMB click is different than a LMB and that a RMB will, most likely, bring up a menu whereas a LMB will perform some operation. Why? Because a RMB click did it on that object over there, and that one up there, and that one down there, so chances are it will do something *HERE*. Most people, though, need to be told to do that instead of doing it to see what happens. They fail to recognize, through common sense, that a RMB does something pretty damned consistent. So the vast majority, when faced with a new program, will muddle along instead of a simple *click* "Hey, that works!" Amazing, though, that the same people can sit down in a new car and will set out to see what does what on a fairly consistent interface. HR. I call it reality. You're not going to change the users. They don't care what you expect of them and they are paying the bills. They're not paying the bills. They're causing the problems. A little intelligence and judgement goes into what actually ends up going in. Well, so far no-one has gotten it right who has tried to cater to the lowest common denominator. This isn't just M$, it is M$ and Mac and, as you pointed out, yourself. I don't think I pointed that out at all. Yes, you did. The people wanted more hits, then they wanted less. Think it over for a moment and remember what I said about 35,000 hits. This is YOUR opinion and is typically the case for a lot of power users, not for occasional users. Most users are the latter. Again, they don't care if the support guy expects them to read up on things. There's nothing that's going to make them. No, that is fact. It is the people who use certain software all the time that I listen to, not the occasional user for they don't do squat. Bashing NT has nothing to do with this mailing list or what this thread started out about (though about 90% of your messages seem to end up going in that direction). It wasn't bashing NT. It was pointing out a very *VALID* argument that is circulating around. It would be bashing NT if it weren't true. The point is that IT managers love NT because they think it is simple yet the IT professionals roll their eyes and hate it every step of the way because it is *NOT*. Why? Because it was designed for idiots and newbies. We were all newbies at one time. Everything is "hard" at first. The real difference is what makes our jobs and lives easier when we're not newbies. News flash, a lot of what is catered to newbies doesn't make my job or my life easier. Nor does it anyone else who uses a little common sense. If they add a new feature, convenience or not, doesn't mean The Bat! will all of a sudden turn into NT, or Oriffice, or anything else M$ as long as they do it right. So far people who listen to "the market" and the newbies haven't done it right. Not a one. It has been the people who have stuck to their guns and didn't listen to every whim and fancy that got it right and that means ignoring a grand majority of the people making "suggestions." That's just it. They don't
Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
On Monday, November 01, 1999 Alexander V. Kiselev wrote: Before the crash he had 1 primary and 1 extended partition, 2 logicals on the latter. After the crash, he had only *one* (primary) partition. The rest of the partitions just perished. The data lost. On the primary partition that seemed to survive all the data *but windows and office* was trashed, too. Did he really lost everything? AFAIK Windows sometimes messes up the partition table, but it is reversible (after longer or shorter time of calculating new one manually)... Regards, -- Christopher J. Trybowski ~~~ === [EMAIL PROTECTED] === [EMAIL PROTECTED] === uin: 4350719 === == http://wil.linux.krakow.pl/~trybik == pgp-keys: 0xB92EEE69 0x9382700B == ( get-pgp-key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=send_key ) Using The Bat! 1.36 [reg] under Windows 98 4.10 build 1998. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?
Hello, On jeudi 28 octobre 1999, someone (you) said : SL Love that prediction. You know, there are a slew of people who don't want SL to use the mouse for many operations you would claim they would not want to SL use the keyboard for. I'm sorry, I'd rather type out many commands than say SL them because I can type them faster. SL rm -rf /foo/* | less SL "Arr Emm space dash arr eff space slash foo slash star space pipe less" SL "Computer, recursively and forcably delete all files in the root level SL directory foo, display the resulting information in the pager less" SL Oh, yeah, that is much easier. Yeah. *eyeroll* Nice one. I liked it :-) What could we "say" for the command "w" ? Regards, Christophe Using The Bat! 1.36 under Windows NT 4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 5 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re[3]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Wednesday, November 03, 1999 Hello Kevin, Tuesday, Tuesday, November 02, 1999, you wrote: Kevin Hi, Sunday, October 31, 1999, 10:09:38 AM, Paula wrote: a computer with a problem, which wants to waste my time trying to interpret its pouting silence or irritatingly cryptic outbursts. Rather like men. Rather like women, actually. Most of the men I know will state flat out what the problem is. Women, on the other hand, are the ones who go silent, pout and pull out that lovely line, "You know what's wrong!" Sure, uh-huh. Kevin In *my* experience, A larger percentage of women aren't as savvy with Kevin operating systems and their problems but tend to know the applications Kevin pretty well. They listen to what you say and appreciate your help. A larger Kevin percentage of men have some idea what they are doing with the OS, but they Kevin won't listen as closely and they try to act like they know more than they Kevin do. Kevin The real headache for tech support seems to be those guys that think they Kevin are guru's and know more about network, LAN, and mainframe support than the Kevin experts, when their only real experience is on their own PC's. They get Kevin torqued at things that don't happen the way they think they should (I'm not Kevin talking about real problems) and constantly complain and try to TELL you Kevin how things should be done. Kevin The clueless people actually are *usually* no big problem to help because Kevin they typically have easy problems to fix. It's just that they do tend to Kevin call you more often. But they do tend make for some funny stories to tell Kevin among the other techs and keep life interesting. :-) Kevin Thanks, Kevin Kevin Boylan Kevin Kevin Using The Bat! 1.36 Kevin Under Windows NT4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 3 I kind of agree with this and you ccan add that the guys who think they know in general try to fix it themselves making the problem worse then it was before they did that and then deny they did anything at all... Best regards, tracer Using theBAT 1.36 mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] NOTE: 1 MAILRUN PER DAY ONLY -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re[4]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
On Wed, 3 Nov 1999 01:55:56 +0700 tracer [EMAIL PROTECTED] expounded: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 Hello Kevin, Tuesday, Tuesday, November 02, 1999, you wrote: Kevin Hi, Sunday, October 31, 1999, 10:09:38 AM, Paula wrote: a computer with a problem, which wants to waste my time trying to interpret its pouting silence or irritatingly cryptic outbursts. Rather like men. Rather like women, actually. Most of the men I know will state flat out what the problem is. Women, on the other hand, are the ones who go silent, pout and pull out that lovely line, "You know what's wrong!" Sure, uh-huh. Kevin In *my* experience, A larger percentage of women aren't as savvy with Kevin operating systems and their problems but tend to know the applications Kevin pretty well. They listen to what you say and appreciate your help. A larger Kevin percentage of men have some idea what they are doing with the OS, but they Kevin won't listen as closely and they try to act like they know more than they Kevin do. Kevin The real headache for tech support seems to be those guys that think they Kevin are guru's and know more about network, LAN, and mainframe support than the Kevin experts, when their only real experience is on their own PC's. They get Kevin torqued at things that don't happen the way they think they should (I'm not Kevin talking about real problems) and constantly complain and try to TELL you Kevin how things should be done. Kevin The clueless people actually are *usually* no big problem to help because Kevin they typically have easy problems to fix. It's just that they do tend to Kevin call you more often. But they do tend make for some funny stories to tell Kevin among the other techs and keep life interesting. :-) Kevin Thanks, Kevin Kevin Boylan Kevin Kevin Using The Bat! 1.36 Kevin Under Windows NT4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 3 I kind of agree with this and you ccan add that the guys who think they know in general try to fix it themselves making the problem worse then it was before they did that and then deny they did anything at all... I got a good compliment from a tech support person the other day, after a short conversation he said, "Yes! You have a clue, what a relief!". We then conversed on many subjects most not related to the problem (which we did solve) and after 15 minutes of non-related conversation I told him I had to go. He said, "You really helped me relieve some stress and smooth my day." I felt pretty good about that, it's nice to simply chat and help somebody out. PS. I'm male. -- Watcher aka Bill DeVos |[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.aack.net/ | http://www.aack.net/watcher - Black holes suck! - -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Hi there! On 31 Oct 99, at 13:35, Thomas Fernandez wrote about "Re[3]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was": MDP Completely and utterly true. It *is* a just small percentage of the MDP millions of computer owners and users that have actually put any MDP effort or time into training, let alone bothered to RTFM! I disagree with you very much. You live in the computer world, both of you, and don't see what is going on "out here". In our office, we have two kinds of regular training for the staff: 1.) Sales Training, 2.) Computer Training (which is centered around MS Office urrg). No "Those who can't do, teach":-)) The results of all this training is less then zero, from my own experience. I've just installed TeX and WinEdt and all that regular "TeX office" like GhostScript etc. to a economics professor here. It worked all right. The next day he phoned me in despair just to tell me that his windows'98 crashed (actually, he installed office'2000 and *then* it crashed). Before the crash he had 1 primary and 1 extended partition, 2 logicals on the latter. After the crash, he had only *one* (primary) partition. The rest of the partitions just perished. The data lost. On the primary partition that seemed to survive all the data *but windows and office* was trashed, too. That's what Billy calls "more robust OS", I presume:-). All in all, God bless fools! I was just short in money *before* the accident described above --- but the next day I was almost rich! You might tell me that I shouldn't have called that professor an idiot --- WRONG you are. Idiot he is! In his book one can read, for example: "3.02*2=6.03" (from which it apparently follows, that 2*2=3), and: "let's write exp(x) as (1+x)^2" () Having typesetted that book, I no longer wonder *why* our native economics is in that ass:-) secretary will be employed unless she has "sufficient" computer knowledge, and computer schools open up like crazy. And on it goes. Just plain idiotism. It's pretty simple to teach a monkey to ride a car, it's much more complicated to teach a dumb to use a computer. It reminds me of that excellent and refreshing story of e tech. support guy and of his words "Go to the shop and tell them, that you've got a serious problem with computer they've sold you. This problem is: such IDIOTS cannot have computers!" Well, a dumb sitting in front of a PC thinks that the PC should be as dumb as he is, that's the crux of the matter... SY, Alex (St.Petersburg, Russia) -- Thought for the day: The safest seat in a aeroplane is within the black box. --- PGP public keys on keyservers: 0xA2194BF9 (RSA); 0x214135A2 (DH/DSS) fingerprints: F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6 7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA) A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589 9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) --- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Saturday, October 30, 1999, 9:35:22 PM, Thomas wrote: A niche market is still a market, but I agree with you in principle. A niche market, when the target isn't the lowest common denominator, does not much resemble the "bad" influences the general market exudes on products. I'm thinking about those who would buy the support to go with it, e.g. from Red Hat. Red Hat sells support. The OS development is not tied to the cash. define software only as "applications"? What then is the OS? Nowadays not hardwired any more. (Is that a news flash for you? ;-)) Basically, yes. After having my OS die only because of hardware failure I don't pay it much mind anymore. I confess, my Pascal experience is about 15 years old, so someone might have a solution in the meantime. What you write further down about Perl, that's neat. A, yes. I remember Pascal from those days. Borland's Turbo Pascal 3 was what I started on. I find it ironic that TP3 didn't have an IDE and I was upset that I had to use the command line to get things done. I jumped on TP4 so fast because of its IDE. How-a-days I'm happy with Perl and working outside an IDE. mistake. That's what I find frustrating. I think it's a definition of the word "frustrating". Nah, the definition is the same. It is where people place the blame that causes the problem. When I saw the output in the file was what I was asking the debugger to print I knew instantly what was going on. I hadn't expected it, really, but once I recognized what was going on I just did a V-8 headslap because it was logical and staring me right in the face. OTOH, a lot of programs which are designed for the "masses" and to be "easy-to-use" do some really strange things which are not logically consistent. I have to spend more time learning the quirks as they come up than learning the logic and being able to make the assumptions from there. associated with the machine. People make mistakes yeah: and who do you think programmes the computer? Builds the computer? My friend got a phone bill for 13,000.-DM - "Computers don't make mistakes"? So should he just have paid up? No, because obviously there was an error made by a human along the line. Was the computer incorrect in billing him because some tech somewhere opened a line and left it open that got billed to him? No. The tech was incorrect. I will grant that there are times (Pentium bug, anyone?) when the machine is not correct. However, considering the number of operations that a computer does such instances stick out like a sore thumb (Pentium bug, anyone?) and you can obviously spot it. What that statement was meant to refute was the entire notion that the general public seems to exude that whenever there is a mistake, ever, it is the computer's fault. They fail to see that of the machine as a while the part that is most apt to "make a mistake" is the interface between chair and keyboard. You seem to have a faster connection than I, logging in from Asia to Europe will you admit that voice control would be a simplication? Nope. Logging in is separate of banking. You can log in and not bank, for example. For the record I have a cablemodem so my connection never goes down. Or at least a neat luxury? Nope. I could tell you about some bedroom computer that turned on the music upon the voice command "music" and closed the curtains etc, but that might go too far. If you prefer your keyboard over voice control, I don't think anybody will take it away from you. "Darling, let me just press a few keys: clickadi-clakc, clackerioclick..." translation: opening CD Programme, selecting options, press "go" [whatever] - really romantic :-D I could also tell you about something called a "remote control" for another things called a "stereo". Now, let's compare your method to mine. Yours: While kissing your lover you mumbled into her mouth, "mrmrmrrmmmph." The computer steadfastly does nothing as it does not speak tongue-twisted mumbling. So you break the kiss and breathlessly call out, "Music." However, since the computer is thrown off by the different in how you said it, it does nothing. So now you can either extract yourself from your lover's arms and do it manually or calm down so you can say the word close enough to what the computer has been programmed to hear. Mine: While kissing my lover I reach around her back. By touch I pick up my remote, point it towards the stereo, press play, toss the remote over my back and attack her to the smth rhythms of Barry White (Oh, yeah, baby, can you feel it?). Sure, voice control is a peachy keen geek toy. This geek, however, is not impressed enough with it to give it up for all but a select few things. About the only one is games because I think it would be much easier for me to call out "Shields!" than to look for the key on my keyboard to perform that function. Now, for some reality
Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Sunday, October 31, 1999, 10:09:38 AM, Paula wrote: a computer with a problem, which wants to waste my time trying to interpret its pouting silence or irritatingly cryptic outbursts. Rather like men. Rather like women, actually. Most of the men I know will state flat out what the problem is. Women, on the other hand, are the ones who go silent, pout and pull out that lovely line, "You know what's wrong!" Sure, uh-huh. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Hi all, On Monday, November 01, 1999, 12:12:57 PM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled: The Desktop environments KDE and Gnome are significantly driven by this open market. This is where most of the funding is coming from isn't it? What funding? Both projects were started and are heavily developed for nothing. Let me put it this way, If all the corporations in the world dropped support for Linux this instant, development would continue as it is now. I know this because Linux, while the media's current Open Source baby, had development before the attention. Other projects outside the big two (Linux and Apache) still get development. FreeBSD, OpenBSD, BSDi (for OSs), mutt, slang, slrn, joe, vim, emacs, etc, etc, etc... All of those were developed before the media and market attention and will be developed if such attention were dropped. I don't see "funding" anywhere in there at all. Well, there have been OSS skeptics who state that OSS will not become dominant because programmers need to put food on the table and therefore wish monetary rewards for their efforts. Many OSS programmers chimed in at that point to say that they get paid to develop OSS. That's the funding I'm speaking about. If this type of funding doesn't in anyway apply to GNOME and KDE development, then I stand corrected. I think they already know that. This is why when they see the popup box in win98 that says, "this program has performed an illegal action ...blah blah", they jump back wondering what they were doing wrong. :) Well, that is Windows, isn't it. Go ahead, guess how many times I see that with Linux. ;) Exactly. It's windows. It's therefore not the users fault when that frustrating crash occurs. :) As I said, ever notice how the "easier" they get, the more training they require? Quotes around the easier denote mockery or ironic intent in case you're not familiar with that bit of online notation. Yes, I know what you meant and I agree. It is not hard. I didn't mean very hard in the sense you interpreted. I meant it from the point of view that you have to actively seek these apps out. You won't see banner adds about them in your computer store at the nearest corner or see them shrink-wrapped on shelves. This is what I meant. There are in fact a whole lot of specialized apps for windows if you look. Just don't look on that particular OS. Also means people need to learn instead of just floating along. I posted my list of software in reply to someone else's list. The fun part with my list is that most of them are free (beer, mostly speech) programs which work quite well. I always try the free apps first, but I only use a few for windows. I always tend to find a shareware app, similarly specialized that I prefer, either in terms of superior functionality or just better polish. This is why the secretary has her hands full learning Word and PowerPoint much less having Bash imposed on her as well. I'd wager that if they weren't imposed with Word and PowerPoint that the grand total with Bash would be less. :P They still need to do their wordprocessing and make slides for their boss's next presentation after learning Bash. :) Incorrect. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. They just don't expect to have to learn what *you* expect them to. *snort* Uhm, no. The statements that followed that one bore out the truth. Just look at the number of computer stores that boast that you can take their computer home, plug it in and turn it on. Viola', it works! But it does just that doesn't it? Apparently not. You just spend 4-5 paragraphs complaining on how computers don't work. I never complain that they don't work. A computer that doesn't work, to me, is totally non-functional. I, however, do claim that computers often don't work as expected, especially since we interact with our computers with an OS, that is written by imperfect humans and hence is prone to unexpected errors. This is what bugs are about. Take for example, I decided to send one of my e-mail messages as a fax today from The Bat!. When I printed to Fax, nothing happened. I hadn't sent a fax in a long time but the last time I did, it had worked flawlessly. I looked around and my fax program claimed that I didn't have a modem configured. Hmmm shrug I then reconfigured it which was problematic as well, but I did it with not much pain and sent the fax. I lost about 15 minutes there. Was I to blame for that mishap. Was I inept? Well, a lot buy them to take them home to have fun from the very start. That's the misconception. As I said, they want to use it with no training. They pick up the hammer, swing it, and when they clock themselves in the head, blame the hammer. Funny, in my limited experience, since I did not professionally do tech support, I have helped many who ask for help because something will not work and they always ask what is it that they're doing wrong.
Re[2]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Hi, Sunday, October 31, 1999, 10:09:38 AM, Paula wrote: a computer with a problem, which wants to waste my time trying to interpret its pouting silence or irritatingly cryptic outbursts. Rather like men. Rather like women, actually. Most of the men I know will state flat out what the problem is. Women, on the other hand, are the ones who go silent, pout and pull out that lovely line, "You know what's wrong!" Sure, uh-huh. In *my* experience, A larger percentage of women aren't as savvy with operating systems and their problems but tend to know the applications pretty well. They listen to what you say and appreciate your help. A larger percentage of men have some idea what they are doing with the OS, but they won't listen as closely and they try to act like they know more than they do. The real headache for tech support seems to be those guys that think they are guru's and know more about network, LAN, and mainframe support than the experts, when their only real experience is on their own PC's. They get torqued at things that don't happen the way they think they should (I'm not talking about real problems) and constantly complain and try to TELL you how things should be done. The clueless people actually are *usually* no big problem to help because they typically have easy problems to fix. It's just that they do tend to call you more often. But they do tend make for some funny stories to tell among the other techs and keep life interesting. :-) Thanks, Kevin Boylan Using The Bat! 1.36 Under Windows NT4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 3 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
On Saturday, October 30, 1999, 3:51:35 PM (GMT+0800), Steve Lamb wrote: SL Computers are *NOT* complicated. Women, now that is a complicated piece SL of equipment! Oh, puhleeze. Women are not equipment and I'd much rather deal with a woman with a problem, who only wants me to listen and sympathsize, than a computer with a problem, which wants to waste my time trying to interpret its pouting silence or irritatingly cryptic outbursts. Rather like men. -- Paula Ford The Bat! 1.35 (reg) Windows 95 4.0 Build 950 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re[2]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Monday, November 01, 1999 Hello Paula, Monday, Monday, November 01, 1999, you wrote: On Saturday, October 30, 1999, 3:51:35 PM (GMT+0800), Steve Lamb wrote: SL Computers are *NOT* complicated. Women, now that is a complicated piece SL of equipment! Paula Oh, puhleeze. Women are not equipment and I'd much rather deal with a Paula woman with a problem, who only wants me to listen and sympathsize, than Paula a computer with a problem, which wants to waste my time trying to Paula interpret its pouting silence or irritatingly cryptic outbursts. Rather Paula like men. I prefer woman computer users as they tend to produce me less problems... Or if I tell them call me if something like that or that happens, they DO, not some silly attempts trying to fix things making it ten times as bad. Its almost always the men here who mess up their systems... Best regards, tracer Using theBAT 1.36 mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] NOTE: 1 MAILRUN PER DAY ONLY -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Friday, October 29, 1999, 1:37:24 AM, Thomas wrote: They have to breath, wehtehr they want to or not. They don't have to use comptuers - "we" want them to. For commercial, political, or other reasons. The bone won't walk to the dog. (German saying, meaning if you want to sell something, you have to go to the market, not tell the market to come and see you). That's just it, we don't have to go to the market, either. There is enough of a "market" out there to go for a niche, not the general market. In the goo-goo eyed craze to get the large numbers one misses the very real point that the competition is too high for those numbers and that they can take a different angle make better money. Besides, the bone does walk the dog. Look at Linux. It was built the way "we" wanted it built and now the market is breaking down Linux' door. Furthermore, it was built with *NO* regard to "the market" because it is free. "The market" is not the end-all, be-all barometer of success. Well, the OS is software in my vocabulary, so you are actually saying you agree with me? :- No, OS does not equal software. The same software on 6 different OSs could yield 6 different levels of performance based on the OS. Software runs on an OS. Because they detect the smallest mistake I make. I missing semicolon in a Pascal freaks up your programme and you look somewhere completely different, for example. Unforgiving beast. ;-) Ah, well, get the authors to make a better parser, then. I miss semicolons all the time in Perl and it tells me right where to look. OTOH, miss a closing bracket and it tells you were it is missing it, but not where to look to find the opening one. My solution there is vim since vim has a function (%) that will find the matching pair to any open/close icon for the language it is in. So when I am missing a } I simply start where perl tells me I missed one, press %, and see if it matches. When it doesn't, I know basically where to add one. Same for those pesky ()s when you do things like foreach $domain (sort(keys(%domains))) or some funky regexp where you have a lot of parens for multiple keys and backreferences. ;) I agree with you here. But that does not prevent me from being frustrated at times. Even in Windows, a wrong click and I lost my card game. It worked as expected. For me I would be frustrated at *me*. Here's a fine example of me being frustrated at a computer. I was coding in perl today on a project that had to get done. We had crossed-logs from our web server and I needed to get a good sampling of how many hits were actually crossed. During the course of programming this script I needed to debug it. Now, the command-line was as follows: cat crossed.logs.orig | perl foo.pl realcount I just placed a -d after perl to get it to go into debug mode. While debugging I was telling it to print different variables so I could see what was going on. Each time I told it to print, however, it would print nothing. I knew the variables contained data, the flow of the program told me as much. I spent a good hour or so on that problem, why the debugger was failing. Mind you, I was dead tired, no sleep, had a hell of a headache and everyone was busy being festive around me. Answer, the debugger wasn't failing. All of the print statements I was issuing in the debugger were going right were I told it to, into the file named "realcount". Once I took off that redirection it worked fine. My frustration went from me being tweaked at the computer to me being *REALLY* tweaked at me. Now, would I want the computer to somehow have programming to try to second guess me in this regard? No. Never, ever, ever, EVER, would I want that. Sure, I lost an hour of headbanging but that was because of my stupidity. Meanwhile, if there was some second-guessing programmed in, I would have to defeat it each time I meant to (which would be often, IMHO) and that would get me to be frustrated at the computer. People are frustrated at the computer when they should not be. They should be frustrated at *themselves* for a great many things they misplace to the computer. As a result, the computer industry has decided to try to program "intelligence" into the computer which, guess what, frustrates people because now the computer won't let them do what they did tell it to do. Computers don't make mistakes, people do. The general public needs to learn that. courses. However, the amount of training that is necessary can be "reasonably" reduced - so why insist on leaving it the way it is? Do you realize that as the "easier" computers become, the time of training has increased? That *would* be unreasonable, but people don't expect that. People don't expect that any new member of mankind can go to toilet without training. Incorrect, they do expect to use a computer with no training at all. Just look at the number of computer stores that boast that
Re: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Hi all, On Saturday, October 30, 1999, 2:51:35 AM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled: That's just it, we don't have to go to the market, either. There is enough of a "market" out there to go for a niche, not the general market. In the goo-goo eyed craze to get the large numbers one misses the very real point that the competition is too high for those numbers and that they can take a different angle make better money. I agree on this one. They just have to find ways of getting their product known about by this niche group. I happened to literally stumbled upon it at www.winfiles.com in search of a decent e-mail client. I guess that's what happened to most of use here? Besides, the bone does walk the dog. Look at Linux. It was built the way "we" wanted it built and now the market is breaking down Linux' door. Furthermore, it was built with *NO* regard to "the market" because it is free. "The market" is not the end-all, be-all barometer of success. That's a statement on foundation, which applies only at that level and to specific developers in the linux community. However, not even linux is escaping the market influence. Distro makers who wish to make some money off packaging and supporting their distros are 'enhancing' linux to make it easier to install and use. It's all back to money again. In the case of linux, it's money made off tech support at all levels. If you wish your customers to continue using linux so you can give them tech support and charge for it, then you can't ignore their cries for enhancements. The Desktop environments KDE and Gnome are significantly driven by this open market. This is where most of the funding is coming from isn't it? Ah, well, get the authors to make a better parser, then. I miss semicolons all the time in Perl and it tells me right where to look. OTOH, miss a closing bracket and it tells you were it is missing it, but not where to look to find the opening one. My solution there is vim since vim has a function (%) that will find the matching pair to any open/close icon for the language it is in. So when I am missing a } I simply start where perl tells me I missed one, press %, and see if it matches. When it doesn't, I know basically where to add one. Same for those pesky ()s when you do things like foreach $domain (sort(keys(%domains))) or some funky regexp where you have a lot of parens for multiple keys and backreferences. ;) Ah, the world of a computing professional. You know, a computer is a unique tool. It's a complex machine which is quite polar in it's role. A machine will be in Steve's office being used by him to make money. He's using it for programming in Perl among other things. The funny thing about it is that another user, myself for example, who may have a machine, even more powerful than Steve's in their bedroom or study at home, will be surfing the internet, writing leisure e-mail, balancing their home financing with Quicken, creating MP3's, doing sound sampling and other simple things alone. There are others who just surf and write e-mail mainly. What level of learning do you expect from users like that who happen to outnumber the professionals by far? I can't think of any tool which is used by such polar user types. Their demands must therefore be radically different and users sympathetic to either group will always be fussing, especially where their needs overlap which is on the OS level and with some software types. Fascinating isn't it? Now, would I want the computer to somehow have programming to try to second guess me in this regard? No. Never, ever, ever, EVER, would I want that. Sure, I lost an hour of headbanging but that was because of my stupidity. Meanwhile, if there was some second-guessing programmed in, I would have to defeat it each time I meant to (which would be often, IMHO) and that would get me to be frustrated at the computer. Yeah, from my relatively ignorant POV, with respect to wordprocessors, I generally switch off these second guess tools. The most annoying being the one that automatically places a capital letter after a period. It's infuriating. People are frustrated at the computer when they should not be. They should be frustrated at *themselves* for a great many things they misplace to the computer. As a result, the computer industry has decided to try to program "intelligence" into the computer which, guess what, frustrates people because now the computer won't let them do what they did tell it to do. I installed Office 2000 just the other day and MS Photoeditor was automatically associated with all the filetypes it could handle. Now why does a thing like that have to happen without my permission?!!! Going through the filetypes applet and manually redoing the associations for some amazing reason didn't work. That was a first for me which had me suspecting MS. Anyway, I had to reinstall my preferred image viewer, which by the way asks what associations
Re[3]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Hallo Marck, On Saturday, October 30, 1999, 7:22:24 PM (GMT+0800), Marck D. Pearlstone wrote: Well, the OS is software in my vocabulary, so you are actually saying you agree with me? :- SL No, OS does not equal software. The same software on 6 different SL OSs could yield 6 different levels of performance based on the OS. SL Software runs on an OS. MDP Hmm. By strict definition, of course the OS is software - MDP I'm just engaging in some terminological pedantry. Ignore me. You know MDP it makes sense. ;-) I think Steve and I were talking about different things here, as the OS alone does not do much; you need applications. ;-) I agree with you here. But that does not prevent me from being frustrated at times. Even in Windows, a wrong click and I lost my card game. SL It worked as expected. For me I would be frustrated at *me*. MDP Very true! Computers are not the source of frustration. It is an MDP individual's own ineptitude that provides it. You are both right, but still I am human and I get frustrated when the programme does something else than I want it to do. See my other mail. SL Now, would I want the computer to somehow have programming to try SL to second guess me in this regard? No. Never, ever, ever, EVER, SL would I want that. Sure, I lost an hour of headbanging but that MDP I couldn't agree more. Actually, I could. Okay. I agree more. I agree with you guys here, absolutely. Still, the situation would have been called "frustrating" for me. It was such a simple thing, hey we all know this: the moment I read that the thing didn't print, I thought of course, take the redirect out. It's easy for an oputsider to see; pbasically it is the same thing as the "missing semicolon" example I brought up earlier in this threat. I guess we only have different definition of "frustrating". ;-) That *would* be unreasonable, but people don't expect that. People don't expect that any new member of mankind can go to toilet without training. SL Incorrect, they do expect to use a computer with no training at SL all. Just look at the number of computer stores that boast that SL you can take their computer home, plug it in and turn it on. SL Viola', it works! MDP Completely and utterly true. It *is* a just small percentage of the MDP millions of computer owners and users that have actually put any MDP effort or time into training, let alone bothered to RTFM! I disagree with you very much. You live in the computer world, both of you, and don't see what is going on "out here". In our office, we have two kinds of regular training for the staff: 1.) Sales Training, 2.) Computer Training (which is centered around MS Office urrg). No secretary will be employed unless she has "sufficient" computer knowledge, and computer schools open up like crazy. And on it goes. SL Computers are *NOT* complicated. Women, now that is a complicated SL piece of equipment! MDP ROFLOL sigh speechless g -- Cheers, Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Message reply created with The Bat! 1.36 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 using an Intel Celeron 366 Mhz, 128MB RAM
OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Hi Steve, on Friday, October 29, 1999, 12:04:47 AM GMT+0800, Steve Lamb wrote: Why? Even if this was meant to offend computers (which it wasn't), why do you take it personally? SL Because it is an attack on those who don't find computers in that manner. I don't feel it that way. Hmm. SL difficult to use, I disagree - they are, for the general public. At least "too" difficult. SL The "general public" finds the concept of breathing too hard. What's your SL point? They have to breath, wehtehr they want to or not. They don't have to use comptuers - "we" want them to. For commercial, political, or other reasons. The bone won't walk to the dog. (German saying, meaning if you want to sell something, you have to go to the market, not tell the market to come and see you). SL unreliable I believe this depends on the software - hardware is pretty reliable these days, in my personal experience. SL That depends on the OS, mostly. Windows is unreliable. Mac is SL unreliable. Yet these are the systems that were "designed" for the very SL clueless nits that Paula is talking about. I do see a correlation there. Well, the OS is software in my vocabulary, so you are actually saying you agree with me? :- SL or frustrating. sigh I wish you were always right on this one. ;-) SL Why do you find your computers frustrating. Because they detect the smallest mistake I make. I missing semicolon in a Pascal freaks up your programme and you look somewhere completely different, for example. Unforgiving beast. ;-) SL What I find frustrating are the people who do not understand SL several of my points on why certain things work. Has nothing to do SL with the computers. I get it: we are talking about different things here. But I also find it frustrating when I try to explain something and people just don't see my point. But I see this more as a psychological matter and agree it has nothing to do with computers or this UDL. SL So far the computers that I have worked on (the many, MANY SL computers I have worked on) have all done what I expected of them. SL It is rare that I find one that does not perform as expected. I agree with you here. But that does not prevent me from being frustrated at times. Even in Windows, a wrong click and I lost my card game. This is the point were I entirely disagree with you. Expectations that might look "unreasonable" to you today, may be the standard tomorrow. SL No, what looks unreasonable to me today is, well, unreasonable today. See your point. I, OTOH, am more the one who has "visions" of what I would like to do with a computer, that's how I get the ideas for my programmes. It's an integral part of computing for me: the future is in this machine. Let's see how much of it we can make it show us. Each PC can do a lot more than it is used for. And in this context I cannot think of many things I would call "unreasonable". An Internet Baud rate of 1 GHz for the general public? Unreasonable for financial reasons, but not technical. I currently am happy each time a file transfer comes in with more than 1 KB/s - and this is "unreasonably slow" I think, giving another twitch to this word. SL Tomorrow is another day. People have unreasonable expectations *today* for SL what computers can do *today*. People expect computers to sing, dance, play SL the fiddle, fart in the wind, do their taxes, and play a mean game of checkers SL all without them doing a thing. No, ain't gonna happen. You are being sarcastic. I have seen computers opening windows curtains at the clap of a hand, or turn up/down the volume of the background music; a computerized bathroom which had a touch panle and I had no clue how to flush the toilet. Everything conceivable is doable (I don't know whether this bathroom would have farted in the wind, though), but it is just too complicated. Apart from being "unreasonably" expensive, I mean. SL Computers are one of the most complex, if not the most complex machine in SL use by the general population. I agree with you here. SL Now, people are expecting to use this very complex machine with *NO* SL training at all! That's not true, you are thinking balckwhite. I need training to operate a car, and every secretary gets trained including comptuer courses. However, the amount of training that is necessary can be "reasonably" reduced - so why insist on leaving it the way it is? I do believe things should be simplified if possible. I love to be lazy while enjoying the fruits of civilization. SL and they expect to be able to use the computer with no training at SL all. SL *THAT* is the unreasonable expectation. That *would* be unreasonable, but people don't expect that. People don't expect that any new member of mankind can go to toilet without training. at Bank A today?") as an example. Keyboards are one of these things nobody wants to use in the future. SL Love that prediction. You know, there are a slew of people
Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?
Thursday, October 28, 1999 Hello Paula, Thursday, Thursday, October 28, 1999, you wrote: (snip) Paula A democratic nation that ignores the fact that the majority of its Paula citizens are not voting at all will be in trouble eventually; a business Paula even more so. If the vocal minority is representative of the market, Paula fine. If they are not ... well ... I've been computing for alot of years Paula and could give you a long list of truly great programs that are no Paula longer around, despite a core of avid, if not fanatical, fans, because Paula that market wasn't enough to feed the programmers, who do have to eat Paula like the the rest of us. Agreed, but most users donot know one end of a pc from the other end and they use what you preinstall... If the bat could be installed with lets say 6 month running before asking for registration then after 6 months of use, almost all those users will fork out the money instead of wanting to learn a new program, moving all their files etc. That $35 is cheaper then relearning a new program. As they are competing with free internet mail/outlook, one has to get people to use it and that means marketing, not really added capabilities. I do have to say that I wish more people were tolerant of "unpopular wishes"... If you think it might be a better way, then ask! You might catch some flack, but hey, life goes on. Paula No criticism of the list was intended. It's a nice list. Computers are not going away, they will continue to become a more and more integral part of our daily lives. Computers aren't intuitive, and like the great majority of other skills in the world, they must be learned and practiced. Paula Not to digress too much, but I work with a man who recently purchased a Paula PC for his home. He knows very little about PCs.He first bought a HP, Paula when he struggled with setting it up because HP did not provide an easy, Paula setup guide and he couldn't get his printer to work with it, he packed Paula it up, returned it to the store and got an Compaq instead (e!) which Paula is real good at thinking like people who know nothing about PCs. He's Paula delighted with it; his wife is delighted with it; his daughter is Paula delighted with it. This represents the future of computing. Well, did he ask advice?? Does he have any decent local shops?? Why does he end up setting it up himself? I thought setting up an HP and similar systems means sticking a cd in and letting it run... You get a system full with unwanted software but it is easy... In general buying these brand name systems LOOKS nice but it can give you a big headache when it comes to repairs / service. I have seen Compacs. Look nice but when you check whats inside the box I guess you pay at least 20% extra for those looks. Add a lousy Bios (compaqs is famous) and its one of the machines we seriously considered NOT wanting for service. You can add Acers, Leo and IBM to that list. And Siemens as a machine with their name which died was a twin of an Acer... Same case, bios, the lot. Any time you have a problem, you have not just windows problems but Bios/driver problems. Anyway, he shouldnt have had to setup the machine himself. You cannot blame the factory for lazy sales people (unless its cash and carry and then he got as ignorant computer buyer exactly what de deserved). Service is much more important then the box/name if you donot know the basics of what you are buying. The fact that they swapped it indicates to me they donot know what they are selling either... Future of computing? I doubt it, I havent seen anyone here who buys a second Compaq if the first breaks down... HP printers are easy to setup, but again the shop should have done it. We always set them up. Not just to help the customer, but to make sure it works so that when they mess it up we KNOW it was working when it left. Paula Computers will become a more and more integral part of our lives, but Paula they will look and behave nothing like these primitive, difficult to Paula use, unreliable, frustrating tools we use now - and it won't be that Paula long - but in the meantime, there are livings, even fortunes, still to be Paula made. Buy a MAC. seriously, we sell those as well, and sofar all the buyers come, get the system; they install the software and we never see them back unless for addons. Compare that with pc's and the difference is very obvious. This is the only argument I can't refute. In a business aspect, it would most likely behoove RIT Labs to cater to the larger and less savvy market. I love TB, but wouldn't hesitate to look elsewhere if it became bloatware. Paula If RIT Labs thought they had a chance of putting TB on even a small part Paula of corporate desktops, do you think there would be any contest? I doubt they even considered it, as to do that you have to get people to use it and thats by spreading it via all those magazine/shareware sources, preinstalls etc. As long as to the
Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?
Hi Steve,
on Thursday, October 28, 1999, 9:20:51 AM GMT+0800, Steve Lamb wrote:
Computers will become a more and more integral part of our lives, but
they will look and behave nothing like these primitive, difficult to
use, unreliable, frustrating tools we use now - and it won't be that
long - but in the meantime, there are livings, even fortunes, still to be
made.
SL Again, I take offense.
Why? Even if this was meant to offend computers (which it wasn't), why
do you take it personally? I think Paula is not suggesting anything
but saying what many people concerned with the future (I mean those
who try to foresee business matters, not fortune tellers -
those waddoyoucallems) say will happen.
SL I do not find my computers primative,
I agree with you.
SL difficult to use,
I disagree - they are, for the general public. At least "too"
difficult.
SL unreliable
I believe this depends on the software - hardware is pretty reliable
these days, in my personal experience.
SL or frustrating.
sigh I wish you were always right on this one. ;-)
SL I find that people have unreasonable expectations of what a
SL computer should do and that they need to be educated to the fact
SL that their expectations are entirely unreasonable.
This is the point were I entirely disagree with you. Expectations that
might look "unreasonable" to you today, may be the standard tomorrow.
Heck, I had this superfast computer with 16Mhz!! Had anybody ever told
me that tens years later, I would be calling 400MHz "not really fast
enough", I would have labeld him unreasonable. - How about our
Winchester Disks with the incredibly big storage capacity of 10MB? Had
anybody told me I would have a 6.2GB hard disk on my "home computer"
(!) only 15 years later, I would have laughed. - How about Bill Gates'
famous prediction that 64KB of RAM should be enough for everybody?
Along with these three things (speed/RAM/HD space) come possibilities
that will make computers really easy to use. Let me take voice control
complete with secure networking ("Computer, what's my account balance
at Bank A today?") as an example. Keyboards are one of these things
nobody wants to use in the future.
SL The alternative is the continued dumbing down of computers to a point
SL where they are virtually unusable by anyone other than complete idiots.
The average user does not need to be beyond complete idiots. Without
going too much into detail, I take programming a VCR as an example.
Don;'t you believe that this will be made easier so that Pop and Aunt
Mary will be able to prgramme theirs? - Computers will go the same
way. This is hardly avboidable in an open market. The consumer will
decide, not the programmer who says the consumers will just have to be
educated. The consumer refuses and says: "you want me to buy your
product, make the product the way I like it".
Please don't forget, you live in a computer world, for you this is
easy, but the average person (who will be the average computer user)
is interested in baseball, discotheques, or shareholder values. Even
if they could learn, they don't want to. Example: every manager in
business nowadays needs to know how to use Excel. Personally, I hate
these spreadsheets. OK, bad example, because you won't be able to do
these without a keyboard, even in the future, but what I want to say
is that many people whose focus on life is somewhere else than
computers, may not be too stupid to use them but simply not
inrterested in the complicated way they work now.
If RIT Labs thought they had a chance of putting TB on even a small part
of corporate desktops, do you think there would be any contest?
SL Yes, there would be.
The people in my office love to use different fonts, different font
sizes, and different colours in emails. I hate it. But that's why I
think Outlook will keep the biggest market share. I don't think TB
intends to go after that market, either. But let's not assume waht
TB's target makret is - RIT Labs will either have their own opinion,
or just wanted to create a programme *they* liked and are happy that
others like it too. We - the users - can only speculate and that is a
waste of bandwidth.
I think - having sort of forgotten now - that my point was that a
software company has more to consider than a few e-mails posted to a
user list with respect to providing news reading capabilities or
anything else about the development of their product.
SL Exactly, like looking for a niche market a lot of people forget, including
SL you, repeatedly. The power user who doesn't want everything and the kitchen
SL sink in their program.
And this is were I agree with you. I see TB as a programme which does
not cater to the masses but to the "select few" computer scholars. By
this I mean all sorts of programmers (pros, ex-pros, future-pros, and
hobbyists), postmasters and the like, who seem to be the majority on
this list, too, if I am not mistaken. And, with computers becoming
more and
Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?
Tuesday, October 26, 1999 Hello Paula, (snip) Paula That's 15 programs with 15 different interfaces to learn and remember, Paula often for tasks that are not performed that frequently. The commonality Paula of interfaces and basic functions has benefits that can't be totally Paula dismissed out of hand. In an office environment, this means less Paula training costs, less support costs. I believe it was the desire for this Paula intergration in a corporate setting that primarily motivated MS and Paula Netscape to add and expand the news reader capabilities of their Paula mailers. For home users, it's been my experience that many, maybe most, Paula prefer integrated applications, because they don't want to have to deal Paula with learning and maintaining many different applications. Plus there is Paula the cost. When I got tired of NS crashing on me all the time and patched Paula together my own suite of internet applications, it ended up costing me a Paula couple hundred dollars total. which means you arent an average / typical user either. You want one, take my partner, he LOVES outlook and runs the free fax program from US robotics (which isnt bad at all). he loves it, you send him an email longer then fist the screen he tends to get rude. It keeps the company running though.. I would say he runs the stuff I wouldnt touch if they paid me to (ok I will, offers welcome (g)). I'm sure my list will differ in areas from others (everybody has their favorites), but my point is that I don't want a piece of software that can only do a half job. I realize that for a great number of Internet/computer users, this may not be the case, because they don't push the envelope. Paula Exactly. It is a niche market that appreciates and wants these small, Paula fast, highly specialized products. I don't know how RIT Labs envisions Paula the market for TB, but they seem to wish it to be used by businesses. If Paula so, then a companion news reader might be a good idea, even if it does Paula not have all the power of Agent or Gravity. I wouldn't use it myself, Paula but I see where it would add to TB's competitiveness in a larger market. You may find a greater impact on sales if marketing is improved.. How many people not actively downloading files know of the bat. They should flog it to any magazin wanting to include it.. Best regards, tracer Using theBAT 1.36 mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] NOTE: 1 MAILRUN PER DAY ONLY -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?
Tuesday, October 26, 1999 Hello Ali, Tuesday, Tuesday, October 26, 1999, you wrote: Ali Hi all, Ali "This is where I think you will find the most disagreement. The Ali majority of the list members ... Felt very strongly against Ali incorporating other functions like news reading, and even HTML Ali into TB." Ali The strength of Leif's statement is based on the assumption that the Ali UDL's subscribed membership comprises a significant segment of TB!'s Ali userbase and hence their collective opinion has more than significant Ali importance. Paula is just placing a valid spoke in this wheel of Ali thought by indicating that this segment of the userbase may not be all Ali that significant and that opinions may otherwise differ outside the Ali UDL. most users will use whatever they get stuck with, We preinstall IE/outlook whatever, never had a complaint and I presonally wouldnt want it (and it isnt ) on my system.. Ali This has nothing to do with her personal desires as she indicated to Ali me with this exchange: Ali Myself: "Be that as it may, I don't see why The Bat! should be made to Ali be like all the other products out there, especially if it's Ali gaining a profitable userbase as is, with it's intended Ali development roadmap as a specialized e-mail only client." Ali Paula's response: "I wasn't suggesting this at all." Best regards, tracer Using theBAT 1.36 mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] NOTE: 1 MAILRUN PER DAY ONLY -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?
Sunday, October 24, 1999 Hello Ali, Sunday, Sunday, October 24, 1999, you wrote: Ali Hi all, Ali On Saturday, October 23, 1999, 11:49:33 AM (-5 GMT), Thomas scribbled: I find it very usable but awfully slow. For larger FTP's (and with my baud rate, each new version of TB qualifies), I telnet into my own account, "get" the file via unix' ftp command onto the home directory on my ISP's server (high baud rate), and then use WS_FTP to get it from my local server onto my PC. Sounds complicated, but in the end is faster. ;-) Ali A most interesting undertaking. Don't you require special privileges Ali to do this, i.e., downloading files to your ISP's home directory? you can do this to your mailbox as well... just find where it is and telnet/ftp in using your password. However if files are big it may be wiser to use a demo account so you donot get the bill for having a huge file sitting where it shouldnt... Ali Otherwise it sounds like a neat way of dealing with the connection Ali speed when downloading files. Best regards, tracer Using theBAT 1.36 mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] NOTE: 1 MAILRUN PER DAY ONLY -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: OT: GetRight et al (was Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Hello Marck D. Pearlstone, On Sunday, October 24, 1999, 12:36:04 AM you told us: AM Getright's fine since it deals with both nicely. MDP Through WinGate? It won't for me - not with the configuration I MDP have here. But, like I say, NetVampire seems to work well while MDP neither GoZilla nor GetRight work properly *for me* through MDP WinGate. MDP On a direct connection, I know that GoZilla and GetRight both MDP work well. I just don't have one available most times. Gozilla, Getright, Netvampire, LeechFTP all work behind my WinGate 3.x. The key is, must putting user name = anonymous and password= [EMAIL PROTECTED], that's it. -- - syafril - Name: Syafril Hermansyah | Company : Duta Integrasi Pratama Mailto : [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Voice : (62) (21) 385-1600 URL : www.dutaint.co.id | FAX : (62) (21) 351-9241 I am using The Bat! 1.36 registered at Windows NT Workstation 4.0 built 1381, Service Pack 5 Created : Monday, October 25, 1999, 11:19:49 (GMT + 07:00) -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?
On 23 October 1999 at 04:22, [EMAIL PROTECTED] told the list: Think of it, all in one is better to switch between many software and Outlook/Communicator integrates both mail and news. SL I do think about it and dislike it immensely. Applications which SL try to do everything well end up only three things. SL huge SL slow SL useless IHMO I agree with you completely on this Steve. Think more carefully of how many people say "Well, Forte Agent does it this way and that way". How long would it take (and how many Mb of new code) to get TB's NNTP functionality anywhere near that of Agent? How many TB/Agent combo users (and that includes *me*) would give up using Agent to read usenet? Okay .. confession time. I once used Outlook Express. All right, all right, so it was more than once. Okay then - for a prolonged period. Look, I was desperate, okay? I was over a barrel - between a rock and a hard thing. Despite having mail and news all together, I soon had to revert to using Agent for the news job. It just doesn't work to have them all in one. Not when Agent is so good at the job. It is also amusing to note that all of these Agent aficionados don't use it for their e-mail (and that /also/ includes *me*). Doesn't that say something about the desire to combine the two under one roof? /IHMO Cheers, Marck -- Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA discussion lists www: http://www.silverstones.com PGP key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY - Using The Bat! 1.36 under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?
On 23 October 1999 at 13:28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] told the list: AM So is getright ... D/L Manager Getright Just out of interest - I've just discovered a new one, having used both GoZilla (mostly) and GetRight (sometimes) for some time. This one is called NetVampire http://www.netvampire.com and works really well. It's freeware and, a bonus for me, works perfectly for both FTP and HTTP D/Ls through WinGate. I haven't been able to persuade GoZilla to do FTP nor GetRight to do HTTP via WinGate, but NetVampire handled both "straight out of the box". Cheers, Marck -- Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA discussion lists www: http://www.silverstones.com PGP key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY - Using The Bat! 1.36 under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
OT: GetRight et al (was Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
On 23 October 1999 at 17:09, [EMAIL PROTECTED] told the list: AM Getright's fine since it deals with both nicely. Through WinGate? It won't for me - not with the configuration I have here. But, like I say, NetVampire seems to work well while neither GoZilla nor GetRight work properly *for me* through WinGate. On a direct connection, I know that GoZilla and GetRight both work well. I just don't have one available most times. Cheers, Marck -- Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA discussion lists www: http://www.silverstones.com PGP key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY - Using The Bat! 1.36 under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: OT: GetRight et al (was Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Hi all, On Saturday, October 23, 1999, 12:36:04 PM (-5 GMT), Marck scribbled: Through WinGate? It won't for me - not with the configuration I have here. But, like I say, NetVampire seems to work well while neither GoZilla nor GetRight work properly *for me* through WinGate. On a direct connection, I know that GoZilla and GetRight both work well. I just don't have one available most times. I see. :) -- Regards, -=Ali=- Data convinces the Pepsi machine that Coke is better! *---* Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5) *---* -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re[2]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)
Hello, On jeudi 4 novembre 1999, someone (you) said : Bashing NT has nothing to do with this mailing list or what this thread started out about (though about 90% of your messages seem to end up going in that direction). SL It wasn't bashing NT. It was pointing out a very *VALID* argument that is SL circulating around. It would be bashing NT if it weren't true. The point is SL that IT managers love NT because they think it is simple yet the IT SL professionals roll their eyes and hate it every step of the way because it is SL *NOT*. Why? Because it was designed for idiots and newbies. We were all SL newbies at one time. Everything is "hard" at first. The real difference is SL what makes our jobs and lives easier when we're not newbies. That's the reason why I started using NT as a "do everything" server and now I use Linux/Samba for the "same" thing. NT is mandatory for a program we use, so I keep it; but everything else is now done by the Linux box. I prefer command line tools that let me in control of what is happening rather than graphical interfaces that hide what _I_ consider important. Regards, Christophe Using The Bat! 1.36 under Windows NT 4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 5 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, click below and send the generated message. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --
