Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A

[Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde via time-nuts]

Thanks for the note, Ulrich-Rohde, N1UL 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 24, 2018, at 8:59 PM, MIKE ELDRIGE  wrote:
> 
> TO ALL:
> 
> HP 5065A  IS sold.
> Thank you, Mike
> 
> -- Mike, KG7AT
> mike.eldr...@msn.com
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[ew via time-nuts]

FRK is possible candidate we are looking at it add filter, reduce time constant 
Corby did but forgot to reduce filter  time constant. 5065A is 0.05 seconds. 

We have to many projects low on the list Juerg is right now doing the new A9 
for Corby
If any body wants to seriously get involved contact me off list
Bert Kehren
 
In a message dated 2/23/2018 8:28:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
time-nuts@febo.com writes:

 
ant
List,
I've been following the ongoing mod process for the HP 5065A super on the list.
Two questions:
1. Are any of these upgrades applicable to the Lucnet and other Rb units?
2. Are there any other Rb units available (that don't cost you your first born 
child IF they can be found) that could be fine tuned as Corby is doing?
Regards,
Perrier
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <2a6c14a0-823a-4177-aefd-bed8bcea8...@n1k.org>, Bob kb8tq writes:

>It turns out that the nickel’s really awful magnetic properties at RF [...]

The semiconductor industry has serious problems with electromigration of
very tiny copper conductors.

A large company in the business spent an awful lot of money failing
to get Cobalt to work, before somebody said "But wait, isn't that
one of the magnetic elements ?"

It now seems to become Wolfram instead.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

> On Feb 23, 2018, at 6:17 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 2/23/18 1:33 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>>> On Feb 23, 2018, at 4:23 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hoi Bob,
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:58:09 -0500
>>> Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>> 
 The same nickel plating effect gets into a lot of things. If you are 
 shopping for very
 low IMD connectors, nickel plating is out. Things get non-linear (to a 
 very slight
 degree) when it is present. If -180 db is the goal for those spurs, you 
 might only
 hit -120 db with the nickel connectors …..
>>> 
>>> Interesting. About what frequency range are you talking?
>> UHF up into microwaves. It was part of a lecture back when I was in school … 
>> I
>> assume the basic physics hasn’t changed since then :)
> 
> 
> Passive intermodulation distortion? What is the physics... hysteresis curves 
> in the magnetization of the nickel is what I would suspect.
> 

It turns out that the nickel’s really awful magnetic properties at RF get it 
into all sorts
of problems. More or less, the issue is the non-linear field response in the 
vicinity
of the nickel. You go from “reasonable skin depth” to “don’t go there” in zero 
distance
when you hit the nickel plating. Past that it gets a bit complicated and it was 
a very long
time ago ….

Bob



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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[jimlux]

On 2/23/18 1:33 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi


On Feb 23, 2018, at 4:23 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:

Hoi Bob,

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:58:09 -0500
Bob kb8tq  wrote:


The same nickel plating effect gets into a lot of things. If you are shopping 
for very
low IMD connectors, nickel plating is out. Things get non-linear (to a very 
slight
degree) when it is present. If -180 db is the goal for those spurs, you might 
only
hit -120 db with the nickel connectors …..


Interesting. About what frequency range are you talking?


UHF up into microwaves. It was part of a lecture back when I was in school … I
assume the basic physics hasn’t changed since then :)




Passive intermodulation distortion? What is the physics... hysteresis 
curves in the magnetization of the nickel is what I would suspect.


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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Warren Kumari]

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 3:29 PM, Leo Bodnar  wrote:
> Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some might 
> find useful.
>
> I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results from 
> solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from otherwise 
> identical microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed and, 
> therefore, covered with ENIG.
>
> Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides to it.
>
> I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research and 
> published data, some of which is presented here 
> http://www.simberian.com/Presentations/NickelCharacterizationPresentation_emc2011.pdf
>
> In essence, it's not the "G" that is the problem - it is the "N".
> Immersion Gold layer is not thick enough to contain whole of the skin effect 
> layer (even towards 100GHz) and as signal frequency increases most of the 
> signal ends up travelling through Nickel.
> As Shlepnev commented "Nickel is the most mysterious metal in electronics."  
> It has significant effect on insertion loss and risetime degradation.  
> "Significant effect" is posh for "bad."

It might be the most mysterious, but Zinc gets my vote for "most
annoying". See:
https://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/reference/tech_papers/2004-Brusse-Zn-whisker-IT-Pro.pdf

I once worked in a datacenter which had such a bad case of zinc
whiskers that, when we got bored, we'd turn off the lights and watch
the pretty blue arcs as the whiskers would get pulled through power
supplies, bridge something which could deliver current and vaporize,
making a small snapping noise in the process. The scary part was that
you could bang on the side of a crac, wait 30 seconds, and be rewarded
with a fireworks show...

W

>
> Some mass PCB manufacturers have been known to apply ENIG before 
> soldermasking.  This causes even more high speed/frequency problems because 
> all of the copper on the outside layers will have Nickel over it - exposed or 
> not.
>
> Probably not a problem for majority of ENIG users but could cause a headache 
> or two for unsuspecting.
>
> Leo
>
>> Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:02:25 +
>> From: Mark Sims 
>>
>> Yes, have the board done with ENIG gold.  It typically adds around $15 per 
>> run of boards.  I do all my boards with ENIG gold... if for no other reason 
>> than the gold color makes it very easy to determine when your solder paste 
>> properly covers the pads.
>>
>> And, as Charles mentioned,  the quality and thickness of the gold can vary 
>> depending upon the board house.  I have used gojgo.com for a lot of boards.  
>> They do very good, quick work,  are well priced, and they seem to have the 
>> best gold finish.
>>
>> Hard gold finish is VERY expensive these days.  I've been quoted $250+ for 
>> setup charges and per-board costs of over $25.
>
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-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

> On Feb 23, 2018, at 4:23 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> 
> Hoi Bob,
> 
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:58:09 -0500
> Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
>> The same nickel plating effect gets into a lot of things. If you are 
>> shopping for very 
>> low IMD connectors, nickel plating is out. Things get non-linear (to a very 
>> slight 
>> degree) when it is present. If -180 db is the goal for those spurs, you 
>> might only
>> hit -120 db with the nickel connectors …..
> 
> Interesting. About what frequency range are you talking?

UHF up into microwaves. It was part of a lecture back when I was in school … I 
assume the basic physics hasn’t changed since then :)

Bob


> 
>   Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Attila Kinali]

Hoi Bob,

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:58:09 -0500
Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> The same nickel plating effect gets into a lot of things. If you are shopping 
> for very 
> low IMD connectors, nickel plating is out. Things get non-linear (to a very 
> slight 
> degree) when it is present. If -180 db is the goal for those spurs, you might 
> only
> hit -120 db with the nickel connectors …..

Interesting. About what frequency range are you talking?

Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Dana Whitlow]

Keep in mind that soldermask will also change the field distributions
around a
microstrip line, and will somewhat mitigate the microstrip's dispersive
behavior
as well.

I once worked with some miccrostrip couplers at around 2-4 GHz and found
that
directivity was significantly improved by adding two layers of thin kapton
tape
on top of the coupled region, a solution that went into production.  I
expect that
the usual soldermask layer would have about the same effect.

Dana


On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 8:15 PM, jimlux  wrote:

> On 2/22/18 12:29 PM, Leo Bodnar wrote:
>
>> Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some
>> might find useful.
>>
>> I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results
>> from solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from otherwise
>> identical microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed and,
>> therefore, covered with ENIG.
>>
>> Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides
>> to it.
>>
>> I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research and
>> published data, some of which is presented here
>> http://www.simberian.com/Presentations/NickelCharacterizatio
>> nPresentation_emc2011.pdf
>>
>>
> the ever useful http://www.microwaves101.com/ site has an excellent
> discussion of this under the "skin effect" heading.
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The same nickel plating effect gets into a lot of things. If you are shopping 
for very 
low IMD connectors, nickel plating is out. Things get non-linear (to a very 
slight 
degree) when it is present. If -180 db is the goal for those spurs, you might 
only
hit -120 db with the nickel connectors …..

Bob

> On Feb 22, 2018, at 9:15 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 2/22/18 12:29 PM, Leo Bodnar wrote:
>> Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some 
>> might find useful.
>> I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results from 
>> solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from otherwise 
>> identical microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed and, 
>> therefore, covered with ENIG.
>> Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides to 
>> it.
>> I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research and 
>> published data, some of which is presented here 
>> http://www.simberian.com/Presentations/NickelCharacterizationPresentation_emc2011.pdf
> 
> the ever useful http://www.microwaves101.com/ site has an excellent 
> discussion of this under the "skin effect" heading.
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[jimlux]

On 2/22/18 12:29 PM, Leo Bodnar wrote:

Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some might 
find useful.

I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results from 
solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from otherwise identical 
microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed and, therefore, 
covered with ENIG.

Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides to it.

I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research and 
published data, some of which is presented here 
http://www.simberian.com/Presentations/NickelCharacterizationPresentation_emc2011.pdf



the ever useful http://www.microwaves101.com/ site has an excellent 
discussion of this under the "skin effect" heading.



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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Tom McDermott]

It appears that ENIG gold is extremely thin (2 - 8 microinches),
and if so does not cause a solderability problem.

-- Tom, N5EG



On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 3:18 PM, Mark Goldberg 
wrote:

> My reading of IPC J-STD-001F Paragraph 4.5 says that the gold embrittlement
> issue does not apply to ENIG or ENEPIG. Paragraph 4.5.1 does say other gold
> shall be removed so there won't be solder embrittlement.
>
> Is that still correct?
>
> The issue with ENIG and RF is interesting. I have not heard that before but
> I can find lots of info on the subject. I do not remember seeing ENIG on
> microstrip boards.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 2:33 PM, Tom McDermott  wrote:
>
> > In general it's bad practice to gold plate SMT solder pads.  The reason
> is
> > that proper SMT soldering utilizes a very small amount of solder and the
> > gold plating
> > will partially dissolve into the molten solder. Because of the small
> amount
> > of
> > solder, the percentage of gold will be high enough to embrittle the
> solder
> > joint,
> > and it will have a high probability of failure.
> >
> > Hand soldering can apply a large enough amount of solder that the
> > percentage
> > of gold in the joint is relatively small and the problem is avoided.
> >
> > -- Tom, N5EG
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Leo Bodnar  wrote:
> >
> > > Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some
> > > might find useful.
> > >
> > > I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results
> > > from solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from
> > otherwise
> > > identical microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed
> and,
> > > therefore, covered with ENIG.
> > >
> > > Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides
> > to
> > > it.
> > >
> > > I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research
> and
> > > published data, some of which is presented here
> > http://www.simberian.com/
> > > Presentations/NickelCharacterizationPresentation_emc2011.pdf
> > >
> > > In essence, it's not the "G" that is the problem - it is the "N".
> > > Immersion Gold layer is not thick enough to contain whole of the skin
> > > effect layer (even towards 100GHz) and as signal frequency increases
> most
> > > of the signal ends up travelling through Nickel.
> > > As Shlepnev commented "Nickel is the most mysterious metal in
> > > electronics."  It has significant effect on insertion loss and risetime
> > > degradation.  "Significant effect" is posh for "bad."
> > >
> > > Some mass PCB manufacturers have been known to apply ENIG before
> > > soldermasking.  This causes even more high speed/frequency problems
> > because
> > > all of the copper on the outside layers will have Nickel over it -
> > exposed
> > > or not.
> > >
> > > Probably not a problem for majority of ENIG users but could cause a
> > > headache or two for unsuspecting.
> > >
> > > Leo
> > >
> > > > Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:02:25 +
> > > > From: Mark Sims 
> > > >
> > > > Yes, have the board done with ENIG gold.  It typically adds around
> $15
> > > per run of boards.  I do all my boards with ENIG gold... if for no
> other
> > > reason than the gold color makes it very easy to determine when your
> > solder
> > > paste properly covers the pads.
> > > >
> > > > And, as Charles mentioned,  the quality and thickness of the gold can
> > > vary depending upon the board house.  I have used gojgo.com for a lot
> of
> > > boards.  They do very good, quick work,  are well priced, and they seem
> > to
> > > have the best gold finish.
> > > >
> > > > Hard gold finish is VERY expensive these days.  I've been quoted
> $250+
> > > for setup charges and per-board costs of over $25.
> > >
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
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> > ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Mark Goldberg]

My reading of IPC J-STD-001F Paragraph 4.5 says that the gold embrittlement
issue does not apply to ENIG or ENEPIG. Paragraph 4.5.1 does say other gold
shall be removed so there won't be solder embrittlement.

Is that still correct?

The issue with ENIG and RF is interesting. I have not heard that before but
I can find lots of info on the subject. I do not remember seeing ENIG on
microstrip boards.

Regards,

Mark


On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 2:33 PM, Tom McDermott  wrote:

> In general it's bad practice to gold plate SMT solder pads.  The reason is
> that proper SMT soldering utilizes a very small amount of solder and the
> gold plating
> will partially dissolve into the molten solder. Because of the small amount
> of
> solder, the percentage of gold will be high enough to embrittle the solder
> joint,
> and it will have a high probability of failure.
>
> Hand soldering can apply a large enough amount of solder that the
> percentage
> of gold in the joint is relatively small and the problem is avoided.
>
> -- Tom, N5EG
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Leo Bodnar  wrote:
>
> > Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some
> > might find useful.
> >
> > I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results
> > from solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from
> otherwise
> > identical microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed and,
> > therefore, covered with ENIG.
> >
> > Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides
> to
> > it.
> >
> > I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research and
> > published data, some of which is presented here
> http://www.simberian.com/
> > Presentations/NickelCharacterizationPresentation_emc2011.pdf
> >
> > In essence, it's not the "G" that is the problem - it is the "N".
> > Immersion Gold layer is not thick enough to contain whole of the skin
> > effect layer (even towards 100GHz) and as signal frequency increases most
> > of the signal ends up travelling through Nickel.
> > As Shlepnev commented "Nickel is the most mysterious metal in
> > electronics."  It has significant effect on insertion loss and risetime
> > degradation.  "Significant effect" is posh for "bad."
> >
> > Some mass PCB manufacturers have been known to apply ENIG before
> > soldermasking.  This causes even more high speed/frequency problems
> because
> > all of the copper on the outside layers will have Nickel over it -
> exposed
> > or not.
> >
> > Probably not a problem for majority of ENIG users but could cause a
> > headache or two for unsuspecting.
> >
> > Leo
> >
> > > Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:02:25 +
> > > From: Mark Sims 
> > >
> > > Yes, have the board done with ENIG gold.  It typically adds around $15
> > per run of boards.  I do all my boards with ENIG gold... if for no other
> > reason than the gold color makes it very easy to determine when your
> solder
> > paste properly covers the pads.
> > >
> > > And, as Charles mentioned,  the quality and thickness of the gold can
> > vary depending upon the board house.  I have used gojgo.com for a lot of
> > boards.  They do very good, quick work,  are well priced, and they seem
> to
> > have the best gold finish.
> > >
> > > Hard gold finish is VERY expensive these days.  I've been quoted $250+
> > for setup charges and per-board costs of over $25.
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Tom McDermott]

In general it's bad practice to gold plate SMT solder pads.  The reason is
that proper SMT soldering utilizes a very small amount of solder and the
gold plating
will partially dissolve into the molten solder. Because of the small amount
of
solder, the percentage of gold will be high enough to embrittle the solder
joint,
and it will have a high probability of failure.

Hand soldering can apply a large enough amount of solder that the percentage
of gold in the joint is relatively small and the problem is avoided.

-- Tom, N5EG




On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Leo Bodnar  wrote:

> Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some
> might find useful.
>
> I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results
> from solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from otherwise
> identical microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed and,
> therefore, covered with ENIG.
>
> Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides to
> it.
>
> I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research and
> published data, some of which is presented here http://www.simberian.com/
> Presentations/NickelCharacterizationPresentation_emc2011.pdf
>
> In essence, it's not the "G" that is the problem - it is the "N".
> Immersion Gold layer is not thick enough to contain whole of the skin
> effect layer (even towards 100GHz) and as signal frequency increases most
> of the signal ends up travelling through Nickel.
> As Shlepnev commented "Nickel is the most mysterious metal in
> electronics."  It has significant effect on insertion loss and risetime
> degradation.  "Significant effect" is posh for "bad."
>
> Some mass PCB manufacturers have been known to apply ENIG before
> soldermasking.  This causes even more high speed/frequency problems because
> all of the copper on the outside layers will have Nickel over it - exposed
> or not.
>
> Probably not a problem for majority of ENIG users but could cause a
> headache or two for unsuspecting.
>
> Leo
>
> > Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:02:25 +
> > From: Mark Sims 
> >
> > Yes, have the board done with ENIG gold.  It typically adds around $15
> per run of boards.  I do all my boards with ENIG gold... if for no other
> reason than the gold color makes it very easy to determine when your solder
> paste properly covers the pads.
> >
> > And, as Charles mentioned,  the quality and thickness of the gold can
> vary depending upon the board house.  I have used gojgo.com for a lot of
> boards.  They do very good, quick work,  are well priced, and they seem to
> have the best gold finish.
> >
> > Hard gold finish is VERY expensive these days.  I've been quoted $250+
> for setup charges and per-board costs of over $25.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Leo Bodnar]

Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some might 
find useful.

I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results from 
solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from otherwise identical 
microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed and, therefore, 
covered with ENIG.

Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides to it.

I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research and 
published data, some of which is presented here 
http://www.simberian.com/Presentations/NickelCharacterizationPresentation_emc2011.pdf

In essence, it's not the "G" that is the problem - it is the "N".
Immersion Gold layer is not thick enough to contain whole of the skin effect 
layer (even towards 100GHz) and as signal frequency increases most of the 
signal ends up travelling through Nickel.  
As Shlepnev commented "Nickel is the most mysterious metal in electronics."  It 
has significant effect on insertion loss and risetime degradation.  
"Significant effect" is posh for "bad."

Some mass PCB manufacturers have been known to apply ENIG before soldermasking. 
 This causes even more high speed/frequency problems because all of the copper 
on the outside layers will have Nickel over it - exposed or not.

Probably not a problem for majority of ENIG users but could cause a headache or 
two for unsuspecting.

Leo

> Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:02:25 +
> From: Mark Sims 
> 
> Yes, have the board done with ENIG gold.  It typically adds around $15 per 
> run of boards.  I do all my boards with ENIG gold... if for no other reason 
> than the gold color makes it very easy to determine when your solder paste 
> properly covers the pads.
> 
> And, as Charles mentioned,  the quality and thickness of the gold can vary 
> depending upon the board house.  I have used gojgo.com for a lot of boards.  
> They do very good, quick work,  are well priced, and they seem to have the 
> best gold finish.
> 
> Hard gold finish is VERY expensive these days.  I've been quoted $250+ for 
> setup charges and per-board costs of over $25.  

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Attila Kinali]

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:33:50 +
"Poul-Henning Kamp"  wrote:

> >Then i would go for the LTC6240HV with a +/-5V power supply.
> 
> Offset voltage (stability) is a, if not the, *very* important
> parameter for the integrator.

That's another reason to choose the LTC6240 over the LT1793.
Beside the smaller 1/f noise (0.55µVpp vs 2.4µVpp), the LTC6240
has a much lower temperature coefficient (0.7µV/°C vs 8µV/°C).

The biggest drawback of the LT6240HV is its limited input range
of -5V to +3V (for a +/-5V supply). But in an integrator application,
this shouldn't be a problem (phase reversal is prevented by the 10k
input resistor). 


Attila Kinali

-- 
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use without that foundation.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <20180222160256.68d832a88fc2d7da91602...@kinali.ch>, Attila Kinali w
rites:

>Ah.. this looks significantly different than my 5065 service manual shows.
>
>So, I guess you want to build a new board that replaces this?
>
>Then i would go for the LTC6240HV with a +/-5V power supply.

Offset voltage (stability) is a, if not the, *very* important
parameter for the integrator.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Attila Kinali]

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:24:53 -0500
ew via time-nuts  wrote:

> Attached the schematic of the A9 my file of the picture is to large it is the
> integrator. 

Ah.. this looks significantly different than my 5065 service manual shows.

So, I guess you want to build a new board that replaces this?

Then i would go for the LTC6240HV with a +/-5V power supply.
I agree with Charles that you want to have low noise power supplies,
though I think using a much cheaper and easier to solder TPS7A49
together with an TPS7A3001 should be more than enough, considering
that the LTC6240HV has a PSRR of >80dB.

If you need more than +/-5V range for the EFC, I'd add an
LTC2057 or LT6018 as amplifier stage after the integrator,
powered from +/-15V.

An alternative design would be to use a discrete JFET/MOSFET
input stage together with an LT6018. But you'd need to select
your FET carefully, as it then would limit your 1/f noise and
determine your leakage current.

Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The control loop (of which A9 is a part) ultimately locks the OCXO in the 5065 
to the Rb 
transition. Gain in the control loop suppresses the noise of the OCXO, making 
it’s ADEV
better than it would have been stand alone. 

Ok so far? Bob’s not off the tracks (yet)? 

The various processes that create ADEV (or whatever you want to call it) on the 
OCXO 
could be translated back to an “equivalent EFC noise” number at various 
frequencies. 
More or less, assume an ideal OCXO and blame all the problems on some little 
noise
source in series with the EFC line. Very much like blaming all the noise in an 
op amp on
the input stage. 

Still ok (if a bit unconventional) ? 

At this point one should be able to sum the magic EFC noise with op amp noise 
or whatever
else you are worried about and compare their magnitudes. If one is 1/100th of 
the other 
then maybe it’s not the thing to worry about. Yes, you could carry it on 
through the various 
control loop equations and get things even more correct. 

No, I haven’t done all of this, but it seems to be a way to come up with a 
fairly detailed answer
to “what’s good enough” in the control loop, 

Bob

> On Feb 22, 2018, at 9:04 AM, Charles Steinmetz  wrote:
> 
>> Ais the LT1793 the best choice the time constant is 0.05 seconds with a 
>> 10 K resistor and 5 uF Capacitor
>> Bshould we add resistors and decoupling on the + - 15 volt op amp 
>> supplies
>> CGold plating the edge connecter,  does any one know a reasonable 
>> source, or is doing it at home an option and if yes, how best way to do so.
> 
> A.  The 1793 is a good choice.  You should look at the LT1012 also.  The 
> headlines on the 1793 datasheet suggest it is significantly quieter than the 
> 1012.  HOWEVER: you are particularly interested in frequencies well below 
> 10Hz, and due to an extremely low 1/f noise corner, the 1012 is actually 5x 
> quieter than the 1793 between 0.1 and 10 Hz (0.5uV for the 1012 p-p vs. 2.4uV 
> p-p for the 1793).  The 1012 can also be overcompensated, which could be a 
> significant advantage in this application.  [Note that the 1793 has lower 
> input current noise than the 1012, but that is irrelevant in the HP circuit 
> because of the relatively low impedances at the op-amp inputs.  Because of 
> that, the input voltage noise dominates the total noise.]
> 
> B.  If you do this, the decoupling has to be good down through at least 
> milliHz, maybe even microHz.  That would require capacitors in the 1F range 
> with suitable decoupling resistors (100 ohms or below).  The op amp is fed by 
> dedicated +/- regulators, so you'll get the best result by just using the 
> lowest-noise regulators available.  That means the LT3042 for V+.  You will 
> have to pore through datasheets to find the lowest-noise negative regulator 
> available today (as above, paying particular attention to the noise specs 
> below 1Hz).
> 
> C.  You normally just tell the board house to plate the edge fingers. It is 
> not outrageously expensive.  OR, here is another, heretical suggestion:  I 
> have designed a number of plug-in daughterboards using ENIG finish on the 
> whole board, including the edge fingers.  *NOTE* this is an "off-label" use 
> of ENIG finish.  The board house I used for the first batch of ENIG-plated 
> fingers (ITEAD Studio) gave me very robust plating, so I have continued to 
> use them for boards with ENIG-plated edge fingers.
> 
> I tested a number of the cards over more than 100 insertion-removal cycles, 
> and viewed under magnification there was very little wear and absolutely no 
> nickel or copper showing ("ENIG" stands for "electroless nickel immersion 
> gold," meaning the copper is coated first with nickle and then with gold.  
> The boards I've tested have not worn through the gold even after >100 
> insertion-removal cycles -- way, way more than any plug-in board is likely 
> ever to see.)
> 
> *NB:*  ENIG plating varies widely from one board house to another, and very 
> likely varies somewhat from one batch to another at any particular board 
> house, so YMMV!!!  I've done a dozen or so projects with ENIG-plated fingers 
> using ITEAD Studio, and have been very pleased with the results each time.
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[ew via time-nuts]

Attached the schematic of the A9 my file of the picture is to large it is the 
integrator. I just gave Corby my extra A12  RVFR that at one time I was going 
to do something along the way you suggested but age and the number of projects 
on our list have ought up with reality. Remember when you visited us you got an 
idea of what we are working on and what has been completed.LED Laser pumping 
was on our list, we have some ideas and have kicked them around off list. 
Decided to focus on 5065A
On a related subject long term tests on my HP 5061B with the new tube  show 
better than 1E-13 my plan is to discipline the 5065A with it using the 600 
second Wenzel circuit. Laying out a new board and have Corby compare it against 
his Maser.
We have a temperature and pressure board for FRK and M100 but I do not think it 
will be needed with 600 seconds.
Bert Kehren
 
In a message dated 2/22/2018 8:55:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, att...@kinali.ch 
writes:

 
 On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 07:00:54 -0500
ew via time-nuts  wrote:

> Now a step by step work over, including HP mods for later  units like 
> replacing the 74196’s in the synthesizer module with 74LS196. May have been 
> end of life of the 74196.

With some slight change of the circuit, you should be able to replace
the 74196 by an 74163 which is available as LVC and thus should be
around for the next 10-20 years at least.

> Now to the purpose of this post. The A9 module is after 88 a significant 
> change and Corby sees an improvement against his Maser. We are doing a board 
> and maybe some other will be interested.

What does the A9 module do, for those of us who have not learned the inner
workings of the 5065 by heart? "Integrator Assembly" doesn't say too much

> Here are the issues
> A    is the LT1793 the best choice the time constant is 0.05 seconds with a 
> 10 K resistor and 5 uF Capacitor

What are your constraints? For every single parameter, there is an opamp
that beats the LT1793.
Do you just want to replace the opamp on A9 or build a new A9 from scratch?
If you can live with a power supply <12V, then I'd go for the LTC6240HV.

> B    should we add resistors and decoupling on the + - 15 volt op amp supplies

Depends on the noise of the power supply. My experience is, that resistors
in the power path causes more trouble than not having them. Though, I highly
suspect those were mostly caused by improper design. If you have problem with
noise on the power supply, I would rather suggest to use some low noise
LDOs instead. The TPS7Axx family from TI has quite a few offerings of
suitable LDOs. They are not on par with the LT3042, but they beat anything
you will have in 5065. And they are easier to solder :-)


> C    Gold plating the edge connecter,  does any one know a reasonable source, 
> or is doing it at home an option and if yes, how best way to do so.

There are gold plating solutions available, if you want to do it at home.
Though I would suggest to choose a PCB manufacturer that offers it.
In europe, i'd recommend Eurocircuits, but i'm pretty sure you have a
similarly cheap shop in the US. There are probably some shops in China
that offer that as well. Mind you, gold plating will increase the PCB
cost considerably, as it's a non-standard process. Not to mention that
you need hard gold for connector contacts, which is different from the
standard gold plating you will get as surface finish.


 Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Charles Steinmetz]

Ais the LT1793 the best choice the time constant is 0.05 seconds with a 10 
K resistor and 5 uF Capacitor
Bshould we add resistors and decoupling on the + - 15 volt op amp supplies
CGold plating the edge connecter,  does any one know a reasonable source, 
or is doing it at home an option and if yes, how best way to do so.


A.  The 1793 is a good choice.  You should look at the LT1012 also.  The 
headlines on the 1793 datasheet suggest it is significantly quieter than 
the 1012.  HOWEVER: you are particularly interested in frequencies well 
below 10Hz, and due to an extremely low 1/f noise corner, the 1012 is 
actually 5x quieter than the 1793 between 0.1 and 10 Hz (0.5uV for the 
1012 p-p vs. 2.4uV p-p for the 1793).  The 1012 can also be 
overcompensated, which could be a significant advantage in this 
application.  [Note that the 1793 has lower input current noise than the 
1012, but that is irrelevant in the HP circuit because of the relatively 
low impedances at the op-amp inputs.  Because of that, the input voltage 
noise dominates the total noise.]


B.  If you do this, the decoupling has to be good down through at least 
milliHz, maybe even microHz.  That would require capacitors in the 1F 
range with suitable decoupling resistors (100 ohms or below).  The op 
amp is fed by dedicated +/- regulators, so you'll get the best result by 
just using the lowest-noise regulators available.  That means the LT3042 
for V+.  You will have to pore through datasheets to find the 
lowest-noise negative regulator available today (as above, paying 
particular attention to the noise specs below 1Hz).


C.  You normally just tell the board house to plate the edge fingers. 
It is not outrageously expensive.  OR, here is another, heretical 
suggestion:  I have designed a number of plug-in daughterboards using 
ENIG finish on the whole board, including the edge fingers.  *NOTE* this 
is an "off-label" use of ENIG finish.  The board house I used for the 
first batch of ENIG-plated fingers (ITEAD Studio) gave me very robust 
plating, so I have continued to use them for boards with ENIG-plated 
edge fingers.


I tested a number of the cards over more than 100 insertion-removal 
cycles, and viewed under magnification there was very little wear and 
absolutely no nickel or copper showing ("ENIG" stands for "electroless 
nickel immersion gold," meaning the copper is coated first with nickle 
and then with gold.  The boards I've tested have not worn through the 
gold even after >100 insertion-removal cycles -- way, way more than any 
plug-in board is likely ever to see.)


*NB:*  ENIG plating varies widely from one board house to another, and 
very likely varies somewhat from one batch to another at any particular 
board house, so YMMV!!!  I've done a dozen or so projects with 
ENIG-plated fingers using ITEAD Studio, and have been very pleased with 
the results each time.


Charles


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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super

[Attila Kinali]

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 07:00:54 -0500
ew via time-nuts  wrote:

> Now a step by step work over, including HP mods for later  units like 
> replacing the 74196’s in the synthesizer module with 74LS196. May have been 
> end of life of the 74196.

With some slight change of the circuit, you should be able to replace
the 74196 by an 74163 which is available as LVC and thus should be
around for the next 10-20 years at least.

> Now to the purpose of this post. The A9 module is after 88 a significant 
> change and Corby sees an improvement against his Maser. We are doing a board 
> and maybe some other will be interested.

What does the A9 module do, for those of us who have not learned the inner
workings of the 5065 by heart? "Integrator Assembly" doesn't say too much

> Here are the issues
> A    is the LT1793 the best choice the time constant is 0.05 seconds with a 
> 10 K resistor and 5 uF Capacitor

What are your constraints? For every single parameter, there is an opamp
that beats the LT1793.
Do you just want to replace the opamp on A9 or build a new A9 from scratch?
If you can live with a power supply <12V, then I'd go for the LTC6240HV.

> B    should we add resistors and decoupling on the + - 15 volt op amp supplies

Depends on the noise of the power supply. My experience is, that resistors
in the power path causes more trouble than not having them. Though, I highly
suspect those were mostly caused by improper design. If you have problem with
noise on the power supply, I would rather suggest to use some low noise
LDOs instead. The TPS7Axx family from TI has quite a few offerings of
suitable LDOs. They are not on par with the LT3042, but they beat anything
you will have in 5065. And they are easier to solder :-)


> C    Gold plating the edge connecter,  does any one know a reasonable source, 
> or is doing it at home an option and if yes, how best way to do so.

There are gold plating solutions available, if you want to do it at home.
Though I would suggest to choose a PCB manufacturer that offers it.
In europe, i'd recommend Eurocircuits, but i'm pretty sure you have a
similarly cheap shop in the US. There are probably some shops in China
that offer that as well. Mind you, gold plating will increase the PCB
cost considerably, as it's a non-standard process. Not to mention that
you need hard gold for connector contacts, which is different from the
standard gold plating you will get as surface finish.


Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A repair...

[Pete Lancashire]

That's great. Another old HP  box brought back to life.

-pete

On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 4:24 PM, paul swed  wrote:

> Ulf very good and great to hear. I did look at the clock motor driver and I
> believe you can use a ttl flip flop to drive the two transistors just fine.
> I think the ttl will run on the 4.2 V. But the transistor drive
> requirements look reasonable.
> So if you want the click click you can have it.
> Regards
> Paul
> Wb8tsl
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 6:28 PM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
>
> >  After having salvaged an old 5065A that was
> > decomissioned in 1987 due to Rubidium cavity
> > heater short circuit, I have now, several
> > weeks later eventually managed to what I think
> > repair it.
> > Using a GPS-Diciplined HP105A
> > as oscilloscope trigger, the 5MHz O/P is
> > absolutely still. "Continous Operation"is ON, and the values indicated on
> > thepanel meter are almost matching thosewritten on the operating chart
> back
> > in 1987.
> >
> > The next step is to take the 5065 to my work
> > where we have two H-masers. Then it will be possible
> > to see if it meets the old specification.
> >
> > A BIG Thank You
> > to Corby Dawson!for valuable help and also to people providing
> > the documents found on KO4BB site ("First Aid...")
> > Ulf KylenfallSM6GXV
> > ___
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A High-Res Schematics?

[Ed Palmer]

Hi Tom,

Yes, I hope to get a hard copy eventually, but even with a hard copy, a 
good OCRed soft copy is useful.  After all, you can't do a search on a 
hard copy.  And if you're away from home, even if just across town, 
lugging manuals along is rarely appropriate.


I'm familiar with Dave's manuals.  I've bought one or two over the 
years.  However, the copy he lists in his auctions and on his web site 
is an older version.  There's no mention whether change sheets are 
included.  Also, on his older products at least, although he does do an 
OCR, he doesn't edit the results to correct recognition errors.  
Depending on which OCR program you've got, that can be an almost 
impossible task.


Ed


On 2017-07-06 10:00 AM, "Tom Van Baak"  wrote:

Hi Ed,

You can still find original hp manuals if you want the full 3D experience of 
physical high-res fold-out paper manuals.

Many of my favorite atomic standards manuals went to Dave at artekmanuals.com 
and he has done a superb job with scanning. Check with him about his PDF's. He 
may still offer them on eBay, or perhaps there's a special deal for time-nuts.

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A High-Res Schematics?

[Tom Van Baak]

Hi Ed,

You can still find original hp manuals if you want the full 3D experience of 
physical high-res fold-out paper manuals.

Many of my favorite atomic standards manuals went to Dave at artekmanuals.com 
and he has done a superb job with scanning. Check with him about his PDF's. He 
may still offer them on eBay, or perhaps there's a special deal for time-nuts.

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "Ed Palmer" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 3:36 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A High-Res Schematics?


> Does anyone have clean high-res one-piece scans of the fold-out pages 
> for the HP 5065A Rb Standard?  I'm 'upgrading' my soft copy of the 
> manual with full, edited OCR & bookmarks but the only copies I can find 
> are either low-res or chopped into pieces.  I've tried to splice the 
> pieces together, but due to distortions in the originals they don't fit 
> together.
> 
> I'd like to get the sheets from the most recent manual which, I believe, 
> is part #05065-9041.
> 
> TIA,
> Ed

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Re: [time-nuts] hp 5065A

[timeok]

   Hi John,
   you can visit the pages:
   http://www.timeok.it/hp5065a-corner-3/
   regards,
   Luciano
   timeok


   From "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
   To "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
   Cc
   Date Sat, 29 Oct 2016 10:47:55 -0700
   Subject Re: [time-nuts] hp 5065A
   On 10/29/2016 9:42 AM, John Ponsonby wrote:
   > Gentlemen,
   > I am interested in getting an old hp 5065A Rubidium frequency standard 
working again. I recall that if one of these units is left not running for a 
long time that the rubidium atoms get adsorbed onto the glass of the cell and 
filter.
   John, the procedure for that is on page 3-1 and 2 of the manual, but it
   may not be necessary. Lots has been published about these and I'm sure
   a Google search will turn them up, in particular there's an Italian
   authored pdf from, I think, a member of this group. There are some
   electrolytic caps that will need to be checked and replaced where necessary.

   Having said that mine came back to life after being in dusty storage for
   about ten years and all it needed was a good clean...

   Dan
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Re: [time-nuts] hp 5065A

[Dan Rae]

On 10/29/2016 9:42 AM, John Ponsonby wrote:

Gentlemen,
I am interested in getting an old hp 5065A Rubidium frequency standard 
working again. I recall that if one of these units is left not running for a 
long time that the rubidium atoms get adsorbed onto the glass of the cell and 
filter.
John, the procedure for that is on page 3-1 and 2 of the manual, but it 
may not be necessary.  Lots has been published about these and I'm sure 
a Google search will turn them up, in particular there's an Italian 
authored pdf from, I think, a member of this group.  There are some 
electrolytic caps that will need to be checked and replaced where necessary.


Having said that mine came back to life after being in dusty storage for 
about ten years and all it needed was a good clean...


Dan
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A questions

[Andy ZL3AG]

Thanks for the link to those handy documents, Luciano.

I have a serial 1420A that I plan on resurrecting once my lab is built.

Since seeing the capacitor warning, I checked it just now and sure enough, 1 
capacitor had vomited on the PCB, so I've removed it and cleaned the PCB ready 
for replacing all the suspect caps in the future.

My one has H89 option installed, and a extra output at 4.433MHZ = PAL TV 
subcarrier frequency. So I suspect that is what option H89 is.

Cheers,

Andy


On 26/09/2016, at 6:58 PM, timeok wrote:

> 
> I think that these pages can help you:
> http://www.timeok.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/First-aid-when-you-buy-an-hp5065A-v-1.2.pdf
> http://www.timeok.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/First-aid-II-when-you-buy-an-hp5065A-v-1.0.pdf
> 
>   Luciano
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A questions

[timeok]

I think that these pages can help you:
http://www.timeok.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/First-aid-when-you-buy-an-hp5065A-v-1.2.pdf
http://www.timeok.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/First-aid-II-when-you-buy-an-hp5065A-v-1.0.pdf

   Luciano

   From "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
   To "time-nuts" time-nuts@febo.com
   Cc
   Date Sun, 25 Sep 2016 18:42:50 -0700
   Subject [time-nuts] HP 5065A questions
   Hello time-nuts,
   I have recently had the opportunity to play with an HP 5065A rubidium
   standard and have some questions. This unit has been powered down for
   quite a long time, it appears to be almost working. I can see both the
   137Hz and second harmonic signals but they seem very low.

   In the manual (the one from KO4BB.com) in section 3.9 (pg 3-1) there is a
   procedure to apply a 1A current through the TEC until the 2nd harmonic
   comes back (due to cell flooding).

   1. What the heck is rubidium cell flooding, and how does the TEC in the
   5065A fix this problem? None of the -many- rubidium oscillators that I
   have been inside before has a TEC, and I have never seen the subject
   addressed.
   The manual suggests that it may take several weeks at the 1A current to fix
   the problem (normal operation of the 5065A applies .7V across the TEC).

   2. When the coarse oscillator control is swept across 5Mhz (open loop) the
   137Hz ERROR signal swings about +/-8 on the meter. This seems low (and may
   be related to this flooding issue). Just wondering what others have seen
   on their units?

   3. On page 5-15 of the manual it says to adjust A7R29 for a 2nd harmonic
   voltage of 4V at A14(1). In the section on A14 on page 8-61 the table
   states that the normal A14(1) voltage is 8V. So which is it? Granted the
   2nd harmonic won't extinguish the CONTINUOUS light until it falls to less
   than about 1.1V.

   I'm also curious about the level of the 60MHz signal feeding the Rb cell.
   This unit has several volts of RF, which appears to be plenty, but just
   wondering if anyone has any baseline information.

   Also, any hints about the care and feeding of the HP 5065A would be
   welcome. Thanks in advance.

   Regards,
   Skip Withrow
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A questions

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

On 09/26/2016 04:04 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

On 9/25/2016 6:42 PM, Skip Withrow wrote:


1. What the heck is rubidium cell flooding, and how does the TEC in the
5065A fix this problem?  None of the -many- rubidium oscillators that I
have been inside before has a TEC, and I have never seen the subject
addressed.
The manual suggests that it may take several weeks at the 1A current
to fix
the problem (normal operation of the 5065A applies .7V across the TEC).


Cell flooding is one of the dirty little secrets of Rb standards.
I worked on the 10816 mini rubidium.  There is supposed to be liquid
rubidium in a reservoir somewhere.  We used the tip off as the
reservoir.  The oven design (optimistically IMHO) attempted to have
a heat leak on the tip off that kept it cooler than the rest of
the cell, yet the oven was still supposed to isolate the cell
temperature from the environment.  Capillary action was supposed
to keep the liquid rubidium in the tip off.  However, it might
come out of the unit was jiggled or turned over or stored, powered
down, in a hot place.  Then, Rb might get on the optical window,
and then you have a serious error in frequency.  The (again optimistic)
concept was that you would just run the unit for a long time until
the rubidium on the window hopefully evaporated and ended up in the
tip off.  Yeah, right.

The 5065 (a VASTLY superior design compared to the 10816) was much
less likely to be jiggled or turned over, and at least had a
TEC to cool the Rb reservoir in case it got flooded.


You might also develop a thin film of rubidum on the window, which 
filters out the D-lines and less optical pumping is achieved. Heating 
and collecting it back at the tip-off does help. The 5065A is the only 
one I know that has a TEC to support this action.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A questions

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 9/25/2016 6:42 PM, Skip Withrow wrote:


1. What the heck is rubidium cell flooding, and how does the TEC in the
5065A fix this problem?  None of the -many- rubidium oscillators that I
have been inside before has a TEC, and I have never seen the subject
addressed.
The manual suggests that it may take several weeks at the 1A current to fix
the problem (normal operation of the 5065A applies .7V across the TEC).


Cell flooding is one of the dirty little secrets of Rb standards.
I worked on the 10816 mini rubidium.  There is supposed to be liquid
rubidium in a reservoir somewhere.  We used the tip off as the
reservoir.  The oven design (optimistically IMHO) attempted to have
a heat leak on the tip off that kept it cooler than the rest of
the cell, yet the oven was still supposed to isolate the cell
temperature from the environment.  Capillary action was supposed
to keep the liquid rubidium in the tip off.  However, it might
come out of the unit was jiggled or turned over or stored, powered
down, in a hot place.  Then, Rb might get on the optical window,
and then you have a serious error in frequency.  The (again optimistic)
concept was that you would just run the unit for a long time until
the rubidium on the window hopefully evaporated and ended up in the
tip off.  Yeah, right.

The 5065 (a VASTLY superior design compared to the 10816) was much
less likely to be jiggled or turned over, and at least had a
TEC to cool the Rb reservoir in case it got flooded.

Rick
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A

[Bob Camp]

Hi

If you have the time to get it going, it’s in deed a good short term stability 
source. It’s long(er) term stability 
is not as good as a Cesium. Possibly the most interesting thing might be to rip 
out the silly old synthesizer 
and put in something more modern.

If you decide to “throw it away” there are a number of us who probably will 
line up by your dumpster :)

Bob 

> On Mar 16, 2016, at 4:24 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts <time-nuts@febo.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> In my closet I found one of these, any merit to play with it  ?
> 
> Ulrich 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 3/14/2016 5:00:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
> lars.walen...@hotmail.com writes:
> 
> Hi
> 
> Shouldn´t 5x10^-11 over 50C be 1x10^-12 / C? So with  2-4°C variation it is 
> 2-4x10^-12.
> 
> What about pressure variations for  the HP5065 and other Rb´s? My LPRO have 
> about 7x10^-14/mBar (hPa) so with  15-20mbar change, that can happen quite 
> quick, it is also in the ^-12 range.  The tempco for my LPRO is 7x10^-13/°C 
> and drift in the high ^-14 per day so my  GPSDO controller mostly fights the 
> temperature and pressure variations I  think. I like having a GPS 
> disciplined Rb as I haven´t had to adjust it during  the last years. Of 
> course a OCXO 
> based GPSDO will also stay on frequency. For  me the Rb have been good when 
> I have tested GPS modules and GPSDO´s just out  of curiosity. In hold mode 
> it have been useful to get the ADEV out to say  1 secs (low ^-13).
> 
> Lars
> 
> Från: Bob  Camp<mailto:kb...@n1k.org>
> Skickat: den 14 mars 2016 02:01
> Till:  Discussion of precise time and frequency  
> measurement<mailto:time-nuts@febo.com>
> Ämne: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A  repair
> 
> Hi
> 
> Some math:
> 
> 5x10^-11 over 50C
> 
> You have  1x10^-13 / C
> 
> If you have pretty good HVAC you get 2C cycles. On a  typical home system, 
> you get 2X that or more.
> 
> Net is a bump at 2x10^-13  (or more).
> 
> That assumes no hysteresis. (Hint: there always is  hysteresis).
> 
> That assumes you have no rate dependent effects. (… they  almost always are 
> present ..).
> 
> If you are at 10X the data sheet level,  the bump is more like 2x10^-12 (or 
> more). Either one will likely show up on a  good test plot.
> 
> Can you take care of all this? Of course you can. Does  modeling and 
> correcting all this fall into the “quick and easy fix” category?  Nope, not 
> at 
> all. The thread is about a request for a simple approach to an Rb  setup. 
> That 
> sort of thing does not include fancy models and all sorts of  corrections.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 13, 2016, at 5:10 PM,  Poul-Henning Kamp <p...@phk.freebsd.dk> 
> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> In message <aabmqmgvvauqc...@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>,  cdel...@juno.com 
> writes:
>> 
>>> As far a tempco goes, unless your  lab swings tens of degrees will you
>>> really see it?
>> 
>> Well, I do...
>> 
>> My air-con is far from optimal, but it clearly  makes a very obvious
>> bump in my AVAR plots.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus  3.20
>> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since  RFC 956
>> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since  4.3-tahoe
>> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained  by 
> incompetence.
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to  
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the  instructions  there.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Ulrich,

Indeed. Some LTC and they have very nice performance.
You got a manual to go with it?

Corby has some interesting mods for them, Poul-Henning is looking at 
further improvements.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 03/16/2016 09:24 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote:

In my closet I found one of these, any merit to play with it  ?

Ulrich


In a message dated 3/14/2016 5:00:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
lars.walen...@hotmail.com writes:

Hi

Shouldn´t 5x10^-11 over 50C be 1x10^-12 / C? So with  2-4°C variation it is
2-4x10^-12.

What about pressure variations for  the HP5065 and other Rb´s? My LPRO have
about 7x10^-14/mBar (hPa) so with  15-20mbar change, that can happen quite
quick, it is also in the ^-12 range.  The tempco for my LPRO is 7x10^-13/°C
and drift in the high ^-14 per day so my  GPSDO controller mostly fights the
temperature and pressure variations I  think. I like having a GPS
disciplined Rb as I haven´t had to adjust it during  the last years. Of course 
a OCXO
based GPSDO will also stay on frequency. For  me the Rb have been good when
I have tested GPS modules and GPSDO´s just out  of curiosity. In hold mode
it have been useful to get the ADEV out to say  1 secs (low ^-13).

Lars

Från: Bob  Camp<mailto:kb...@n1k.org>
Skickat: den 14 mars 2016 02:01
Till:  Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement<mailto:time-nuts@febo.com>
Ämne: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A  repair

Hi

Some math:

5x10^-11 over 50C

You have  1x10^-13 / C

If you have pretty good HVAC you get 2C cycles. On a  typical home system,
you get 2X that or more.

Net is a bump at 2x10^-13  (or more).

That assumes no hysteresis. (Hint: there always is  hysteresis).

That assumes you have no rate dependent effects. (… they  almost always are
present ..).

If you are at 10X the data sheet level,  the bump is more like 2x10^-12 (or
more). Either one will likely show up on a  good test plot.

Can you take care of all this? Of course you can. Does  modeling and
correcting all this fall into the “quick and easy fix” category?  Nope, not at
all. The thread is about a request for a simple approach to an Rb  setup. That
sort of thing does not include fancy models and all sorts of  corrections.

Bob




On Mar 13, 2016, at 5:10 PM,  Poul-Henning Kamp <p...@phk.freebsd.dk>

wrote:


  
In message <aabmqmgvvauqc...@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>,  cdel...@juno.com

writes:



As far a tempco goes, unless your  lab swings tens of degrees will you
really see it?


  Well, I do...

My air-con is far from optimal, but it clearly  makes a very obvious
bump in my AVAR plots.


  --
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus  3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since  RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since  4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained  by

incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message , KA2WEU--- via time-nuts writes:

>In my closet I found one of these, any merit to play with it  ?

I'm having oodles of fun with mine :-)

http://phk.freebsd.dk/hacks/HP5065A/index.html

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A repair

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Yes, fat fingers strike yet again …



I have never seen data on a 5065 run in an altitude chamber. I’ve done the 
measurements on OCXO’s and may try it on some of the little telecom Rb’s. For 
small items, it’s a pretty easy test to run. For bigger things, the “pressure 
vessel” gets a bit harder to lash up. The fiddly part is keeping the 
temperature constant as the pressure zooms up and down. 

Bob

> On Mar 14, 2016, at 3:20 PM, Lars Walenius <lars.walen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> Shouldn´t 5x10^-11 over 50C be 1x10^-12 / C? So with 2-4°C variation it is 
> 2-4x10^-12.
> 
> What about pressure variations for the HP5065 and other Rb´s? My LPRO have 
> about 7x10^-14/mBar (hPa) so with 15-20mbar change, that can happen quite 
> quick, it is also in the ^-12 range. The tempco for my LPRO is 7x10^-13/°C 
> and drift in the high ^-14 per day so my GPSDO controller mostly fights the 
> temperature and pressure variations I think. I like having a GPS disciplined 
> Rb as I haven´t had to adjust it during the last years. Of course a OCXO 
> based GPSDO will also stay on frequency. For me the Rb have been good when I 
> have tested GPS modules and GPSDO´s just out of curiosity. In hold mode it 
> have been useful to get the ADEV out to say 1 secs (low ^-13).
> 
> Lars
> 
> Från: Bob Camp<mailto:kb...@n1k.org>
> Skickat: den 14 mars 2016 02:01
> Till: Discussion of precise time and frequency 
> measurement<mailto:time-nuts@febo.com>
> Ämne: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A repair
> 
> Hi
> 
> Some math:
> 
> 5x10^-11 over 50C
> 
> You have 1x10^-13 / C
> 
> If you have pretty good HVAC you get 2C cycles. On a typical home system, you 
> get 2X that or more.
> 
> Net is a bump at 2x10^-13 (or more).
> 
> That assumes no hysteresis. (Hint: there always is hysteresis).
> 
> That assumes you have no rate dependent effects. (… they almost always are 
> present ..).
> 
> If you are at 10X the data sheet level, the bump is more like 2x10^-12 (or 
> more). Either one will likely show up on a good test plot.
> 
> Can you take care of all this? Of course you can. Does modeling and 
> correcting all this fall into the “quick and easy fix” category? Nope, not at 
> all. The thread is about a request for a simple approach to an Rb setup. That 
> sort of thing does not include fancy models and all sorts of corrections.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 13, 2016, at 5:10 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <p...@phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> In message <aabmqmgvvauqc...@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>, cdel...@juno.com 
>> writes:
>> 
>>> As far a tempco goes, unless your lab swings tens of degrees will you
>>> really see it?
>> 
>> Well, I do...
>> 
>> My air-con is far from optimal, but it clearly makes a very obvious
>> bump in my AVAR plots.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
>> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
>> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
>> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A repair

[Lars Walenius]

Hi

Shouldn´t 5x10^-11 over 50C be 1x10^-12 / C? So with 2-4°C variation it is 
2-4x10^-12.

What about pressure variations for the HP5065 and other Rb´s? My LPRO have 
about 7x10^-14/mBar (hPa) so with 15-20mbar change, that can happen quite 
quick, it is also in the ^-12 range. The tempco for my LPRO is 7x10^-13/°C and 
drift in the high ^-14 per day so my GPSDO controller mostly fights the 
temperature and pressure variations I think. I like having a GPS disciplined Rb 
as I haven´t had to adjust it during the last years. Of course a OCXO based 
GPSDO will also stay on frequency. For me the Rb have been good when I have 
tested GPS modules and GPSDO´s just out of curiosity. In hold mode it have been 
useful to get the ADEV out to say 1 secs (low ^-13).

Lars

Från: Bob Camp<mailto:kb...@n1k.org>
Skickat: den 14 mars 2016 02:01
Till: Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement<mailto:time-nuts@febo.com>
Ämne: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A repair

Hi

Some math:

5x10^-11 over 50C

You have 1x10^-13 / C

If you have pretty good HVAC you get 2C cycles. On a typical home system, you 
get 2X that or more.

Net is a bump at 2x10^-13 (or more).

That assumes no hysteresis. (Hint: there always is hysteresis).

That assumes you have no rate dependent effects. (… they almost always are 
present ..).

If you are at 10X the data sheet level, the bump is more like 2x10^-12 (or 
more). Either one will likely show up on a good test plot.

Can you take care of all this? Of course you can. Does modeling and correcting 
all this fall into the “quick and easy fix” category? Nope, not at all. The 
thread is about a request for a simple approach to an Rb setup. That sort of 
thing does not include fancy models and all sorts of corrections.

Bob



> On Mar 13, 2016, at 5:10 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <p...@phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>
> 
> In message <aabmqmgvvauqc...@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>, cdel...@juno.com writes:
>
>> As far a tempco goes, unless your lab swings tens of degrees will you
>> really see it?
>
> Well, I do...
>
> My air-con is far from optimal, but it clearly makes a very obvious
> bump in my AVAR plots.
>
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A repair

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Some math:

5x10^-11 over 50C

You have 1x10^-13 / C

If you have pretty good HVAC you get 2C cycles. On a typical home system, you 
get 2X that or more. 

Net is a bump at 2x10^-13 (or more). 

That assumes no hysteresis. (Hint: there always is hysteresis). 

That assumes you have no rate dependent effects. (… they almost always are 
present ..). 

If you are at 10X the data sheet level, the bump is more like 2x10^-12 (or 
more). Either one will likely show up on a good test plot.

Can you take care of all this? Of course you can. Does modeling and correcting 
all this fall into the “quick and easy fix” category? Nope, not at all. The 
thread is about a request for a simple approach to an Rb setup. That sort of 
thing does not include fancy models and all sorts of corrections. 

Bob



> On Mar 13, 2016, at 5:10 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
> 
> 
> In message , cdel...@juno.com writes:
> 
>> As far a tempco goes, unless your lab swings tens of degrees will you
>> really see it?
> 
> Well, I do...
> 
> My air-con is far from optimal, but it clearly makes a very obvious
> bump in my AVAR plots.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A repair

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message , cdel...@juno.com writes:

>As far a tempco goes, unless your lab swings tens of degrees will you
>really see it?

Well, I do...

My air-con is far from optimal, but it clearly makes a very obvious
bump in my AVAR plots.


-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A flaws and improvements

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message , Bob Camp writes:

>> That's the first I've heard of any drawbacks to the 5065.  Can you give
>> more details on this?
>
>The manual talks about a 5x10^-11 temperature stability over 0-50C.
>Various members have reported data that suggests a stability about
>10X worse than this.

I'm pretty sure that is easily fixable, it's Zener in the power-supply
which has become temperature sensitive.

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A flaws and improvements

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 

Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A flaws and improvements

[Bob Camp]

Hi

> On Mar 12, 2016, at 4:56 PM, Stewart Cobb  wrote:
> 
> Bob Camp wrote:
> 
>> The 5065 has great ADEV numbers.
>> In “as delivered” condition it has horrid
>> TC and pressure sensitivity.
> 
> That's the first I've heard of any drawbacks to the 5065.  Can you give
> more details on this?

The manual talks about a 5x10^-11 temperature stability over 0-50C. Various 
members have reported data that suggests a stability about 10X worse than this. 
The manual spec is worse than what you see on most telecom Rb’s over that 
narrow a range. The actual performance compared to a telecom Rb in the same 
environment appears to be worse. 

Pressure sensitivity is not listed. All Rb’s are sensitive to pressure to some 
degree. Lab data from various experiments often shows up with a note “pressure 
change” to explain a bump in the data. 

Bob


> 
> The "as delivered" implies that there may be improvements available? Any
> details on improvements?
> 
> I'm aware of Corby's optical filter trick, which improves SNR and hence
> ADEV, but that would not affect sensitivity to temperature or pressure.
> 
> Cheers!
> --Stu
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A Start-Up

[John Miles]

> Microphonics.
> 
> What's the norm here?  I see it in the 2nd harmonic level on the panel
> meter.  It runs about 20 normally, but a pretty light tap (with my
> fingernail) anywhere on the instrument can peg the meter for a few
> seconds.  While I had the scope on A8 TP2 / TP3 (showing the off-resonance
> phase shift peak it manifested as bursts of noise) It's hard to localize -
> but I think the RVFR and Synthesizer are the most sensitive.

If your 5065A is like most of the older ones I've seen, it has been upgraded 
with a 10811-60109 OCXO.  If so, there is a spring-loaded shaft extension that 
allows you to access the 10811's calibration trimmer from the panel behind the 
hinged door.  It can be a good idea to remove that hardware, since it can 
otherwise transfer external vibrations to the OCXO.  That probably isn't enough 
to pin the meter but it's still worth checking.

(Be sure to check the ESR of all of the axial tantalum electrolytics on the 
RVFR oven control board, if you haven't already.  A failed oven controller can 
really hose the RVFR.)

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A Start-Up

[timeok]

Jim,


> Except...
> 
> Microphonics.
> 
> What's the norm here? I see it in the 2nd harmonic level on the panel
> meter. It runs about 20 normally, but a pretty light tap (with my
> fingernail) anywhere on the instrument can peg the meter for a few
> seconds. While I had the scope on A8 TP2 / TP3 (showing the off-resonance
> phase shift peak it manifested as bursts of noise) It's hard to localize -
> but I think the RVFR and Synthesizer are the most sensitive.

20 is the border level of the 2nd harmonic (20-40). After some week of 
continuous operation can happen the signal level  increase otherwise an 
adjustment is necessary.

I had the same experience on some HP5065A revived after a long period of 
inactivity. The microphonics is high during the first few weeks of operation, 
then later recedes.
I could see about a dozen HP5065A that I had in my hands that a reduced 
microphonics  is a feature common to all HP5065A.


Luciano



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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A battery pack

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

Lacking the charging controller in mine, what would be a good approach 
to go about and build one?


Need to replace the battery setup in my XSRM setup too, the packs I 
installed is now dead.


Tempted to think in terms of LiFePO.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 11/21/2015 03:45 AM, Dan Rae wrote:

On 11/20/2015 4:54 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

I don’t in any way doubt your count. If indeed they are putting 21
cells into that circuit,
the NiCads likely don’t last as long as they might with a different
charging circuit ….

Bob


Bob, I was answering Corby's query; mine had an original -hp- battery
pack which I assumed was designed by someone who knew what they were
doing, so I just put new Chinese made 2.2 Ah Nicad cells in it, exactly
the same number as the original, however I don't know the capacity of
the originals, they were unmarked.  Five or six years later it still
will hold the thing up for at least twenty minutes, which I would think
is what matters.

It would in any case be difficult to fit any more than 21 in the space
available.

Dan

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A battery pack

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <77d0b0cc-a230-47d8-af0b-772aec876...@n1k.org>, Bob Camp writes:

>The key issue is that there has been a lot learned about charging batteries
>since the 5065A was designed. 

While that is true, NiCd is almost the most robust battery chemistry out
there, so even with the rather suboptimal charging circuit (not atypical
for its vintage) they'll probably survive for a number of years just fine.

-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A battery pack

[Dan Rae]

On 11/21/2015 6:13 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

The key issue is that there has been a lot learned about charging batteries
since the 5065A was designed. Just as other parts of the 5065 can be improved
with some work, so can the battery charger. Given that NiCad’s aren’t cheap,
it’s worth noting that the circuit could be worked on *before* somebody buys
a bunch of batteries to re-cell one.

Moving a bit further off topic and back to our original conversation when you 
re-did
yours (2 years ago?) - you don’t get a lot of standby time even with the full 
load of
NiCads in there.


Bob, I stopped writing dates on the chart thing inside the pull down 
cover in August 2004 since the numbers had not changed significantly 
since 2002 (and still haven't) which in fact must have been when I did 
the battery.  Time flies... A bit more than my guess of 5 years!   It 
got a check recently when we had an outage that lasted for a good twenty 
minutes and the green light stayed lit.  -hp- spec is for more than ten 
minutes.


And incidentally the schematic shows the battery as 25.2 Volts which 
might indicate 21 cells, although I'm sure it would work with 20 and 
maybe there have been early versions that did have 20; mine is late, the 
last but one serial prefix.


It's certainly possible that the circuit might be improved but it does 
seem to perform as advertised as is.  For extended periods than there is 
always the DC input as has been pointed out.  I suspect this option was 
more for moving the thing from one lab to another adjacent rather that 
flying clock trips or mountain climbing :^)


Dan


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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A battery pack

[Bob Camp]

Hi

If you are running inside a facility with backup power, the couple of seconds 
between lights out
and generators on is something that does need to be handled. If the frequency 
standard cruises 
through the event, it’s probably ok for the rest of the gear here and there to 
restart. Waiting for another
hour or three while a standard gets running again is what you want to avoid. 

In that sort of situation, a 10 minute run time is way more than you likely 
will need. 

Bob

> On Nov 21, 2015, at 4:49 PM, Dan Rae  wrote:
> 
> On 11/21/2015 6:13 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> The key issue is that there has been a lot learned about charging batteries
>> since the 5065A was designed. Just as other parts of the 5065 can be improved
>> with some work, so can the battery charger. Given that NiCad’s aren’t cheap,
>> it’s worth noting that the circuit could be worked on *before* somebody buys
>> a bunch of batteries to re-cell one.
>> 
>> Moving a bit further off topic and back to our original conversation when 
>> you re-did
>> yours (2 years ago?) - you don’t get a lot of standby time even with the 
>> full load of
>> NiCads in there.
>> 
>> 
> Bob, I stopped writing dates on the chart thing inside the pull down cover in 
> August 2004 since the numbers had not changed significantly since 2002 (and 
> still haven't) which in fact must have been when I did the battery.  Time 
> flies... A bit more than my guess of 5 years!   It got a check recently when 
> we had an outage that lasted for a good twenty minutes and the green light 
> stayed lit.  -hp- spec is for more than ten minutes.
> 
> And incidentally the schematic shows the battery as 25.2 Volts which might 
> indicate 21 cells, although I'm sure it would work with 20 and maybe there 
> have been early versions that did have 20; mine is late, the last but one 
> serial prefix.
> 
> It's certainly possible that the circuit might be improved but it does seem 
> to perform as advertised as is.  For extended periods than there is always 
> the DC input as has been pointed out.  I suspect this option was more for 
> moving the thing from one lab to another adjacent rather that flying clock 
> trips or mountain climbing :^)
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A battery pack

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The 5065A has a nice connector on the back for an external DC supply Rather 
than doing 
anything inside the box, I’d do a battery pack outside the unit. If you have 
multiple devices
you want to run on battery - do they also have DC inputs? If not can a DC input 
be added
with minimal damage to the unit?

LiFeP04 is the darling of the battery industry these days. They do give you a 
lot of energy 
in a small volume. They really do need charge balancing controllers on each 
cell. Price
is in the “not cheap” range. Keeping them running a long time is a common goal. 

Lead Acid batteries stolen from a golf cart are the other approach. They are at 
least
worth looking at as a cost comparison. They have been around long enough that 
there is a lot
of data on them. 

For a backup system in a normal urban environment (=outages are rare), I 
probably would 
design a charger from scratch or modify an existing device. Most of what I have 
seen at a
price you can afford is not doing the sort of job that will keep the batteries 
running for a long
time. All of the information on charging voltages etc is out on the web. There 
aren’t a lot of 
secrets in this area. You probably want to optimize for long battery life 
rather than maximum 
charge or fast recharge. The “charge it until it gets so hot it almost 
explodes” approach is 
not what you want here. (Yes indeed … err… some chargers are designed that way 
by …errr..
some designers). 

About all a charger is:

Power source (DC supply) with adjustable voltage and (maybe adjustable) current 
limit 
Temperature sensor(s)  … (LM73’s do nicely)
Volt meter  (ADC channel works ok)
Current meter (ADC channel and an isolation amp)
Smarts to run it (an MCU)

Assuming that you have a basement full of junk, the power supply probably is a 
“zero cost”
item. The rest of it is a project using any of the multitude of cheap MCU 
boards out there. Is
it $20 or $40 .. who knows. Either way it’s pretty cheap. With the LiFePO4’s 
the balancing 
stuff is a bit of a pain on large stacks. I’d probably use the off the shelf 
modules for that part. 

One thing that was not commonly done in the 1960’s, but that is pretty easy 
today is to put
a switcher on the battery output. That allows you to drive the gizmo with just 
the right voltage
and not waste a lot of power in the linear regulators. It also makes the whole 
process of running
multiple devices off of a single battery bus a lot easier. If this one needs 
21V and that one needs 14.5V,
you can make them both happy. You can also do it with just about any stack of 
batteries that makes
mechanical sense.

No, that’s not a one size fits all solution like a UPS. It does take some 
planning and some fuses. It
is a full blown project. Given how cheaply they sell stuff when it goes on 
sale, you probably will not
save much money on the first pass. The LiFePO4 system likely will run forever 
(if the current data
is correct … only time will tell). The lead acid systems will eventually need 
to be re-celled. 

Lots to think about. Way to many variables with each of our local power 
companies and inventories of
equipment. No single correct answer. That’s even without getting into the 

Bob

> On Nov 21, 2015, at 5:25 AM, Magnus Danielson  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Lacking the charging controller in mine, what would be a good approach to go 
> about and build one?
> 
> Need to replace the battery setup in my XSRM setup too, the packs I installed 
> is now dead.
> 
> Tempted to think in terms of LiFePO.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 11/21/2015 03:45 AM, Dan Rae wrote:
>> On 11/20/2015 4:54 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> I don’t in any way doubt your count. If indeed they are putting 21
>>> cells into that circuit,
>>> the NiCads likely don’t last as long as they might with a different
>>> charging circuit ….
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>> Bob, I was answering Corby's query; mine had an original -hp- battery
>> pack which I assumed was designed by someone who knew what they were
>> doing, so I just put new Chinese made 2.2 Ah Nicad cells in it, exactly
>> the same number as the original, however I don't know the capacity of
>> the originals, they were unmarked.  Five or six years later it still
>> will hold the thing up for at least twenty minutes, which I would think
>> is what matters.
>> 
>> It would in any case be difficult to fit any more than 21 in the space
>> available.
>> 
>> Dan
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A battery pack

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The key issue is that there has been a lot learned about charging batteries
since the 5065A was designed. Just as other parts of the 5065 can be improved
with some work, so can the battery charger. Given that NiCad’s aren’t cheap,
it’s worth noting that the circuit could be worked on *before* somebody buys
a bunch of batteries to re-cell one.

Moving a bit further off topic and back to our original conversation when you 
re-did
yours (2 years ago?) - you don’t get a lot of standby time even with the full 
load of 
NiCads in there. 

Bob

> On Nov 20, 2015, at 9:45 PM, Dan Rae  wrote:
> 
> On 11/20/2015 4:54 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> I don’t in any way doubt your count. If indeed they are putting 21 cells 
>> into that circuit,
>> the NiCads likely don’t last as long as they might with a different charging 
>> circuit ….
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
> Bob, I was answering Corby's query; mine had an original -hp- battery pack 
> which I assumed was designed by someone who knew what they were doing, so I 
> just put new Chinese made 2.2 Ah Nicad cells in it, exactly the same number 
> as the original, however I don't know the capacity of the originals, they 
> were unmarked.  Five or six years later it still will hold the thing up for 
> at least twenty minutes, which I would think is what matters.
> 
> It would in any case be difficult to fit any more than 21 in the space 
> available.
> 
> Dan
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A battery pack

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <5650469b.1040...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:

>Lacking the charging controller in mine, what would be a good approach 
>to go about and build one?

A Mascot lead-acid charger and two VRLAs :-)

>Need to replace the battery setup in my XSRM setup too, the packs I 
>installed is now dead.

Really... You should build a Lab-wide 24V battery-backed DC supply instead.

>Tempted to think in terms of LiFePO.

Lithium is a bad choice for standby applications.

Normally we overcharge lithium batteries to get max capacity, but that
is also what kills them short of 1000 cycles.  If you leave them in the
charger "forever" they die "a lot sooner than forever".

When used in standby applications you can only use 70-80% of their
capacity because you have to stay out of the "overcharge" domain.

Unless it is kit which you lug around, VRLA is the way to go for standby.


-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A battery pack

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Well, the charger brings the stack up to about 33V (34.8V CR7 minus
1.4V in Q5 and Q4).

Since they are NiCad’s that sort of limits the choices in stack size. 
Best bet (and a nice round sounding number) is 24 cells. That would
 1.375V per cell which is just below the “standard” 1.41 V float voltage 
commonly used.  As Q4 and Q5 cut off, the voltage might rise a bit 
above the 33V number, but at pretty low current. 

The other choices would be 23 cells at 1.43V, (that’s a bit much for float
charging) and 25 cells at 1.32V (you will loose capacity at that point). 

On the other side, the battery disconnect drops out (CR11 and CR15)
at 23V. That would be 0.96V per cell on 24 which is still rational for a NiCad. 
 

Bob


> On Nov 20, 2015, at 1:52 PM, cdel...@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Any one know how many cells went into the HP 5065A battery packs?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Corby
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A battery pack

[Dan Rae]

On 11/20/2015 10:52 AM, cdel...@juno.com wrote:

Any one know how many cells went into the HP 5065A battery packs?


21 Corby, in three rows of seven, from my notes when I re-celled mine.

Dan
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A battery pack

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Corby:

You could guess if you know the nominal pack voltage (divide that by 1.2 Volts/cell) or if you know the interior 
dimensions I might be able to see what fits.


Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
cdel...@juno.com wrote:

Any one know how many cells went into the HP 5065A battery packs?

Thanks,

Corby

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A battery pack

[Bob Camp]

Hi

I don’t in any way doubt your count. If indeed they are putting 21 cells into 
that circuit, 
the NiCads likely don’t last as long as they might with a different charging 
circuit ….

Bob

> On Nov 20, 2015, at 3:56 PM, Dan Rae  wrote:
> 
> On 11/20/2015 10:52 AM, cdel...@juno.com wrote:
>> Any one know how many cells went into the HP 5065A battery packs?
>> 
> 21 Corby, in three rows of seven, from my notes when I re-celled mine.
> 
> Dan
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A battery pack

[Dan Rae]

On 11/20/2015 4:54 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

I don’t in any way doubt your count. If indeed they are putting 21 cells into 
that circuit,
the NiCads likely don’t last as long as they might with a different charging 
circuit ….

Bob

Bob, I was answering Corby's query; mine had an original -hp- battery 
pack which I assumed was designed by someone who knew what they were 
doing, so I just put new Chinese made 2.2 Ah Nicad cells in it, exactly 
the same number as the original, however I don't know the capacity of 
the originals, they were unmarked.  Five or six years later it still 
will hold the thing up for at least twenty minutes, which I would think 
is what matters.


It would in any case be difficult to fit any more than 21 in the space 
available.


Dan

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A battery pack

[J. L. Trantham]

Corby,

I have two 5065A's with the battery back-up feature (that I have removed the 
fuse from to, hopefully, preserve longevity of the battery pack), one 'white 
face' without the clock and one 'black face' with the LED clock.  I'll be happy 
to open one (or both) and inspect the battery pack if needed.

I have rebuilt the battery packs for both and, IIRC, there are 20 cells.  I 
can't say that there aren't 21 but it's been a long time.

Let me know if you would like me to open the pack and take some pictures.  
Happy to do so if you would like.

Thanks.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 6:54 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A battery pack

Hi

I don’t in any way doubt your count. If indeed they are putting 21 cells into 
that circuit, the NiCads likely don’t last as long as they might with a 
different charging circuit ….

Bob

> On Nov 20, 2015, at 3:56 PM, Dan Rae <dan...@verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> On 11/20/2015 10:52 AM, cdel...@juno.com wrote:
>> Any one know how many cells went into the HP 5065A battery packs?
>> 
> 21 Corby, in three rows of seven, from my notes when I re-celled mine.
> 
> Dan
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A with Patek clock on eBay

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Corby:

What frequency input does the clock use?

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
cdel...@juno.com wrote:

Hi,

I've just listed an HP 5065A on eBay, item # 321719923791

Cheers,

Corby
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A questions

[Joe D'Elia]

 cdelect@... writes:
 
 Joe,
 
 Nice find.
 
 Don't worry about the lamp, they VERY seldom fail.
 
 Of course there are electronics failures that crop up.
 
 What color is your physics package?
 
 Blue paint= old style
 Olive green paint = mid production
 Silver (no paint) = late production
 
 Also can I get your units serial number for my list?
 
 With it in the operate mode watch the control voltage and slowly adjust
 the fine quartz back and forth.
 
 If it is indeed locking to the Rubidium the meter should follow your
 adjustment.
 
 I would not worry about the physics package case either, just put some
 tape across to seal it from heat loss.
 
 I can give you some alignment hints if you need them.
 
 Corby Dawson 
 cdelect@...
 
 
The physics package is silver so you reckon late production. By looking at
date codes I reckon it's late 1988 production, does that come into that
definition. When did they stop making the unit? Also regarding serial number
the tag at the back has been filed so that the number is not legible,
however the calibration stickers and a departmental identification tag list
it as 916-00184, does that tie in with the rest of the numbers you have?
Again from the cal stickers etc this is an ex RAF machine.

I switched to control voltage and initially it was off the scale, adjusting
the fine control just brought it back to 50, so I tweaked the coarse
slightly to take the reading down to 40 and then adjusted the fine as you
suggest and the meter follows the direction of adjustment. This also took
the output from +25 millihertz to -2 around the 5MHz nominal so it does
appear to be locked. 

The unit does not have any options so just a blank plate on the right and
the lock light is red instead of green also the back panel connections are
different to any shown in the manuals I've seen, though I have found some of
the differences by trawling through the changes section.

I'm back to the cal lab next week to pick up a meter that they are calling
for me and whilst there I shall see if I can find something of the same
vintage that uses the same top and bottom covers and side rails that I can
cannibalize to fix this unit. If I can then I'll keep and get it back to
pristine condition, if I can't then I'll find someone else who want's to
take on the burden.

JoeD



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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A questions

[paul swed]

Joe a very nice find.
The light won't change to lock unless you toggle the little switch inside
the cover on the left to reset. Its intended to be that way so that you
know you lost lock
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 7:16 AM, Joe D'Elia j...@windrushadv.co.uk wrote:

  cdelect@... writes:
 
  Joe,
 
  Nice find.
 
  Don't worry about the lamp, they VERY seldom fail.
 
  Of course there are electronics failures that crop up.
 
  What color is your physics package?
 
  Blue paint= old style
  Olive green paint = mid production
  Silver (no paint) = late production
 
  Also can I get your units serial number for my list?
 
  With it in the operate mode watch the control voltage and slowly adjust
  the fine quartz back and forth.
 
  If it is indeed locking to the Rubidium the meter should follow your
  adjustment.
 
  I would not worry about the physics package case either, just put some
  tape across to seal it from heat loss.
 
  I can give you some alignment hints if you need them.
 
  Corby Dawson
  cdelect@...
 
 
 The physics package is silver so you reckon late production. By looking at
 date codes I reckon it's late 1988 production, does that come into that
 definition. When did they stop making the unit? Also regarding serial
 number
 the tag at the back has been filed so that the number is not legible,
 however the calibration stickers and a departmental identification tag list
 it as 916-00184, does that tie in with the rest of the numbers you have?
 Again from the cal stickers etc this is an ex RAF machine.

 I switched to control voltage and initially it was off the scale, adjusting
 the fine control just brought it back to 50, so I tweaked the coarse
 slightly to take the reading down to 40 and then adjusted the fine as you
 suggest and the meter follows the direction of adjustment. This also took
 the output from +25 millihertz to -2 around the 5MHz nominal so it does
 appear to be locked.

 The unit does not have any options so just a blank plate on the right and
 the lock light is red instead of green also the back panel connections are
 different to any shown in the manuals I've seen, though I have found some
 of
 the differences by trawling through the changes section.

 I'm back to the cal lab next week to pick up a meter that they are calling
 for me and whilst there I shall see if I can find something of the same
 vintage that uses the same top and bottom covers and side rails that I can
 cannibalize to fix this unit. If I can then I'll keep and get it back to
 pristine condition, if I can't then I'll find someone else who want's to
 take on the burden.

 JoeD



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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A questions

[Dan Rae]

On 2/6/2015 4:16 AM, Joe D'Elia wrote:

   I shall see if I can find something of the same
vintage that uses the same top and bottom covers and side rails that I can
cannibalize to fix this unit.
Joe, You may find the side panels / handles castings since they are 
common to a lot of that vintage -hp- gear, however the top cover is more 
or less completely full of ventilation holes which I have never seen in 
any other instrument of that series, thus perhaps unique to the 5065A.  
A lot of drilling if you use one from another unit!


If you have the 10811 oven then it is pretty certain that it is one of 
the last few versions of the 5065A so the 916 prefix doesn't sound 
right.  Mine with the 10811 is 2432A prefix for example.


A good find, even if you do have to drill a lot of holes!

Dan
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A questions

[Magnus Danielson]

Joe,

Using the front panel, turn the knob and notate the readings for all 
locations, we can help you from there.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 02/05/2015 06:01 PM, Joe D'Elia wrote:

Whilst mainly a voltnut I have often turned to this forum for answers on the
telecom sourced rubidium oscillators and have two units that I use for
keeping my counters honest. However recently I was browsing in the
scrap/redundant shelves at a local calibration lab and came across an
HP5065A carcass, no top and bottom cover, the right front handle had been
sheared off, the chassis by the transformers was buckled and the lid of the
physics package was also buckled and had a quarter inch gap around a third
of the circumference. However it had a very nice HP10811 oscillator and the
size of the physics package made it very tempting for a teardown. So I duly
paid the £20 they wanted and took it home with no expectations that it
worked. On powering it on there were signs of activity on the Circuit check
meter so I left it for an hour and then went through the startup process and
the lock light came on! Now I'm in a quandary as I hadn't intended to add it
to my stock but I can't let such a beautiful piece of engineering be
cannibalized. So to the point of this missive

How do you tell the state of the Rubidium lamp in the 5065A? there is no
mention of ageing in the manual and I'd like to know there is some life in
the unit. It's a late 88 build and has spent the past twelve or so years
since it's accident on a shelf.

Secondly since I turned it on it's gone from being 3 millihertz below
nominal to +24 millihertz. That's over six days and the rate of change is
slowing down so I'm going to let it run until it's stable and then try the
adjustment procedure. Before I do that should I try mending the Physics
package lid so that it's sealed, could that be the cause of the drift?

I look forward to your responses as I set out on this unintended journey.

JoeD
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A serial number list

[johnk0...@juno.com]

Corby, my 5065A has s/n 2816A01605

John W Cress K0GCJ

 

-- Original Message --
From: cdel...@juno.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A serial number list
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 10:57:33 -0800

As promised here is a list of all the HP 5065A 
units I have come across.
I believe there should be a 08xx prefix out there
as the units first came out in the middle of 1968.
I also think that the 2816A prefix is the last
prefix used. 
Anyone have any others I can add to the list?
Another tidbit, the latest optical unit warrenty
date I have seen is 1993.

Known HP5065A serial numbers

0916-00181  2816A01556
0928-2816A01554
0940-00203  2816A01565
0960A00285 2816A01566
0960A00312 2816A01567
0960A00313 2816A01591
0968A00312 2816A01596
1104A00376 2816A01617
1220A00422 2816A01618
1220A00426 2816A01636
1220A00444 2816A01640
1220A00448 2816A01645
1220A00463 2816A01652
1320A00492 2816A01658
1340A00519 2816A01666
1340A00521 2816A01674
1340A00528 2816A01677
1416A   2816A01688
1420A00613 2816A01693
1420A00651 2816A01697
1532A00725
1736A
1908A00853
1908A00910
2112A01035
2144A01088
2216A01121
2232A01149
2320A01200
2340A01200
2340A01235
2340A01290
2432A01332
2432A01338
2432A01380
2432A01400
2432A01430
2614A01514
2632A01463
2644A01471
2740A01547

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A serial number list

[Tom Van Baak]

Hi Corby,

Thanks much for your effort to accumulate all this history, as well as 
improving on the original design.

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: cdel...@juno.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 10:57 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A serial number list


 As promised here is a list of all the HP 5065A 
 units I have come across.
 ...



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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A change sheets

[paul swed]

Corby my manual only covers up to 1908a
Sounds like you have far newer info than me.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 3:16 PM, cdel...@juno.com wrote:

 Hi Everyone,

 Does anyone have the change sheets that apply to the prefix 2816A.

 I only have the one that covers up to prefix 2740A.

 Thanks,

 Corby
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A short term stabilities, update

[Tom Van Baak]

Corby,

Thanks very much for the updated list. I can only imagine how much work that 
involved over the years. Can you describe your test setup?

Also, are you up to testing/repairing more 5065A? I have a few here that I'm 
not making any progress on.

Thanks,
/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: cdel...@juno.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 8:18 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A short term stabilities, update


 
 
 A few years ago I posted the short term stabilities of some HP 5065A.
 Here is an updated list with some more results. The 1 sec figures
 with a * indicate a maximum. The actual 1 sec results for those units 
 will be better. 
 
 The 1340A unit was exceptional!
 
 
  1 SEC.   10 SEC.   100 SEC.  1K SEC.
 --
 HP 5065A Spec.   5.0-12  1.6-12   5.0-13   5.0-13
 --
 
 940-3.51-12  1.02-12   2.43-13   1.00-13 
 2432A1.40-12  6.06-13   3.31-13   3.28-14
 2340A1.66-12  7.09-13   2.93-13   6.54-14
 2640A1.16-12  4.06-13   1.23-13   2.10-14
 2816A1  1.04-12  3.89-13   2.40-13   3.37-14
 TESTER 1.15-12  7.40-13   3.66-13   7.54-14 
 RB09  5.50-12  1.00-12   3.00-13   3.00-13
 RB02  9.00-13  3.00-13   1.00-13   6.00-14
 RB12  2.00-12  4.00-13   1.10-13   5.10-14
 TVB2  1.17-12  4.80-13   1.50-13   7.80-14
 TVB1  1.13-12  3.32-13   1.13-13   5.10-14
 2816A2 *2.62-12  1.09-12   4.12-13   1.10-13
 2816A3   1.38-12  5.93-13   2.51-13   7.81-14
 1532A 1.8 -12   8.0 -134.0 -13
 2432A1   1.4 -12   4.5 -131.6 -13
 2816A4   8.0 -13   3.2 -131.1 -13
 RB34 *2.10-12  4.5 -131.15-13
 2816A5   1.04-12  3.50-13   8.15-14
 2816A6 *2.16-12  4.50-13   1.15-13
 2740A   *2.07-12  4.05-13   1.01-13
 1340A9.45-13   3.31-13   9.60-14
 2432A2  1.02-12   3.43-13   1.03-13
 2432A3*2.01-12   4.11-13   1.25-13
 



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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A optical unit PIX

[Edgardo Molina]

Thank you so much for sharing! This is the cherry on top of the cake for 
HP-5065 lovers  ;o)

I treasure the goodwill to share. This is how the learning process has taken 
place for centuries.

Happy holidays from Mexico.


Sincerely yours,




Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 10045822

Piensa en Bits SA de CV



Información anexa:




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este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un correo 
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mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o divulgar su en forma 
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On Dec 23, 2012, at 10:37 AM, cdel...@juno.com wrote:

 Merry Christmas everyone!
 
 I have taken some PIX of a disassembled HP 5065A optical unit for your
 pleasure! 
 
 Tom Van Baak is hosting them at 
 
 http://leapsecond.com/corby/5065a-optical/
 
 Enjoy
 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A optical unit PIX

[paul swed]

I agree with the previous comment and will be ready to jump into my 5065
when it has trouble. (I hope never) Thanks.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 12:09 PM, Edgardo Molina xe1...@amsat.org wrote:

 Thank you so much for sharing! This is the cherry on top of the cake for
 HP-5065 lovers  ;o)

 I treasure the goodwill to share. This is how the learning process has
 taken place for centuries.

 Happy holidays from Mexico.


 Sincerely yours,




 Edgardo Molina
 Dirección IPTEL

 www.iptel.net.mx

 T : 55 55 55202444
 M : 04455 10045822

 Piensa en Bits SA de CV



 Información anexa:




 CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE INFORMACION

 Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario
 de este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un
 correo electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de su
 computadora sin retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente
 prohibido copiar este mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o
 divulgar su en forma parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.


 NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

 This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are
 not the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying
 to this e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your
 computer without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use
 it for any purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.






 On Dec 23, 2012, at 10:37 AM, cdel...@juno.com wrote:

  Merry Christmas everyone!
 
  I have taken some PIX of a disassembled HP 5065A optical unit for your
  pleasure!
 
  Tom Van Baak is hosting them at
 
  http://leapsecond.com/corby/5065a-optical/
 
  Enjoy
 
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Re: [time-nuts] -hp- 5065A battery pack

[Bob Camp]

Hi

I have no problem with restoring gear to it's original state. I mostly was 
wondering just how much time the considered enough back when the 5365 was 
made. There's been a bit of drift in things like that over the years. Sounds 
like in this case, not as much as in other areas.

Bob

On Dec 4, 2012, at 8:37 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 But thats not HP. :-)
 I would agree that a external ups would be about the same price and for
 some of them you can slightly increase the battery size. There are a lot of
 surplus ones out there for a very few dollars. Shippings normally the
 bigger cost these days.
 Regards
 Paul.
 
 On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:
 
 Hi
 
 So roughly what a simple UPS would give you.
 
 Bob
 
 On Dec 4, 2012, at 7:34 PM, Dan Rae dan...@verizon.net wrote:
 
 On 12/4/2012 3:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi
 
 How much backup time does that battery pack give you?
 
 Bob
 
 
 Bob, it's at least what they claim in the manual for that Option,
 something like fifteen minutes from what I remember.
 
 Dan
 
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Re: [time-nuts] -hp- 5065A battery pack

[Dan Rae]

On 12/4/2012 3:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

How much backup time does that battery pack give you?

Bob


Bob, it's at least what they claim in the manual for that Option, 
something like fifteen minutes from what I remember.


Dan

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Re: [time-nuts] -hp- 5065A battery pack

[Bob Camp]

Hi

So roughly what a simple UPS would give you.

Bob

On Dec 4, 2012, at 7:34 PM, Dan Rae dan...@verizon.net wrote:

 On 12/4/2012 3:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi
 
 How much backup time does that battery pack give you?
 
 Bob
 
 
 Bob, it's at least what they claim in the manual for that Option, something 
 like fifteen minutes from what I remember.
 
 Dan
 
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Re: [time-nuts] -hp- 5065A battery pack

[paul swed]

But thats not HP. :-)
I would agree that a external ups would be about the same price and for
some of them you can slightly increase the battery size. There are a lot of
surplus ones out there for a very few dollars. Shippings normally the
bigger cost these days.
Regards
Paul.

On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:

 Hi

 So roughly what a simple UPS would give you.

 Bob

 On Dec 4, 2012, at 7:34 PM, Dan Rae dan...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 12/4/2012 3:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
  Hi
 
  How much backup time does that battery pack give you?
 
  Bob
 
 
  Bob, it's at least what they claim in the manual for that Option,
 something like fifteen minutes from what I remember.
 
  Dan
 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065A frequency adjustment advise and Common (all in) view GPS comparisons proposal.

[Edgardo Molina]

Dear Magnus,

Good morning. Welcome back! I hope you are enjoying typing at home again.

a. I just downloaded TimeLab. What a nice pice of software! Now I am ready for 
some action. 

b. Regarding your comment on the TBolt as a close UTC source, I just finished 
my first approach for my thesis GPSDO using the TBolt module. I still have to 
master the use of Lady H. to get the best out of it. I have only been using 
TBolt monitor software while I gain experience with it.

c. As per our last comments on instrumentation for phase and time interval 
measurements, I decided first to get an affordable unit such as the 53132A with 
the Prologix GPIB adapter. Afterwards I am not moving my finger from pointing 
to an SR-620 as a dedicated unit for time interval and phase measurements. 
Until now I feel blind in terms of measuring resources and technics. I must put 
some attention to it.

d. Your clarification of the use of Phase Shifters is welcome. I can see the 
need for them to work with time scales and the differences among the old and 
new Cs and Rb standards. 

e. Yes, you are right. They are currently using the Novatel antenna. How 
different in performance is the Novatel 700 pin-wheel GPS antenna compared for 
a regular amplified GPS unit such as the Symmetricom 52532A or the legacy HP 
units? Is it a matter of gain? Or radiation pattern characteristics? Regarding 
the VP Oncore receivers I recall a comment from them praising those receivers 
for both amateur and pro work. I haven't got one yet, but certainly planning to 
do so. Dr. Levine commented that the older units are better made and so, better 
performing. How can I tell the difference? I have seen several variations on 
the used market. 

f. A warm welcome to the new Atlanta member. Has he posted yet?

Thank you as always.


Regards,





Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV



Información anexa:




CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE INFORMACION

Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario de 
este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un correo 
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retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente prohibido copiar este 
mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o divulgar su en forma 
parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.


NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not 
the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying to this 
e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your computer 
without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use it for any 
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On Oct 20, 2012, at 3:08 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org 
wrote:

 Dear Edgardo,
 
 On 10/19/2012 11:06 PM, Edgardo Molina wrote:
 Dear Group,
 
 Good afternoon. I just realized that my two HP 5065As have been
 running for about a month and their operation has been closely
 monitored. Now I assume both clocks are stabilized. I want to
 start doing some phase and time comparisons between them and
 with respect of a TrueTime 5 MHz GPS receiver signal. I only
 have an old Tracor 895A linear phase/time comparator for this
 purpose. Luckily it has 5 MHz as a frequency input.  At least
 it will allow me to get close to a decent synchronization as I
 continue searching for better measurement instruments. Next week
 I will be receiving my first HP 53132A and Prologix GPIB-USB
 interface to start characterising my clocks and doing
 Allan Deviation work.
 
 You should have a good starting-point then. Pull in TimeLab!
 
 My question here is how to finely adjust the 5065A frequency
 to bring it in phase to the 5 MHz GPS derived signal. I read
 somewhere that it can be fine tuned using the C Field control,
 but I am afraid of moving it as both controls have been set
 to each instrument's factory values. My oscillator fine
 frequency adjustment pots are set to 250 and locked there as
 per manual recommendation.
 
 This is a fine recommendation when you use them as stand-alone instruments. 
 However, it will limit their ability to achieve SI second (UTC second back in 
 the days when you intentionally frequency offset it) to be the current 
 instruments properties and long term drift.
 
 If you use a UTC source of sufficient quality (i.e. GPS clock such as 
 Thunderbolt) you can remove systematic frequency offsets to within a much 
 tighter specification.
 
 May I get some advise as which is the best procedure to adjust
 these clocks to start matching them regularly to GPS reference?
 I just don't want to mess with the clocks during the process.
 
 The manual gives a good description of how to coarse tune the HP5065A into a 
 state where the OCXO is close to correct frequency, locks, has good signal 
 properties to 

Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065A frequency adjustment advise and Common (all in) view GPS comparisons proposal.

[Magnus Danielson]

Dear Edgardo,

On 10/21/2012 05:50 PM, Edgardo Molina wrote:

Dear Magnus,

Good morning. Welcome back! I hope you are enjoying typing at home again.

a. I just downloaded TimeLab. What a nice pice of software! Now I am ready for 
some action.


Great. Do enjoy.


b. Regarding your comment on the TBolt as a close UTC source, I just finished 
my first approach for my thesis GPSDO using the TBolt module. I still have to 
master the use of Lady H. to get the best out of it. I have only been using 
TBolt monitor software while I gain experience with it.


Tbolt + Lady Heather is a good combo.


c. As per our last comments on instrumentation for phase and time
interval measurements, I decided first to get an affordable unit such
as the 53132A with the Prologix GPIB adapter. Afterwards I am not
moving my finger from pointing to an SR-620 as a dedicated unit for
time interval and phase measurements. Until now I feel blind in terms
of measuring resources and technics. I must put some attention to it.


Once you are up to 5370, 53132A or SR620 level, you won't gain very 
much, unless you go for a Wavecrest DTS.


For deep measurements, the TimePod with cross correlation and best 
current practice in hooking it up will get you far more knowledge. It 
will set you back, but it is amazing what you can measure in the home 
lab with one of these. Especially since you can do real phase-noise 
measurements, which the counters isn't at all suited for.



d. Your clarification of the use of Phase Shifters is welcome. I can
see the need for them to work with time scales and the differences
among the old and new Cs and Rb standards.


BTW, the term is phase stepper.


e. Yes, you are right. They are currently using the Novatel antenna.
How different in performance is the Novatel 700 pin-wheel GPS antenna
compared for a regular amplified GPS unit such as the Symmetricom
52532A or the legacy HP units? Is it a matter of gain? Or radiation
pattern characteristics?


The Novatel 700 pin-wheel has significantly better multipath suppression 
than many of the other antennas. It behaves similar to a choke-ring, and 
the benefit of using choke-rings compared to simpler antennas has 
already been tested and it was found that choke-ring antennas has 
significant suppression of multipath and hence cause a stabler phase of 
the timing receiver. As I recall this have been tried out using the 
Tbolt and Lady Heather, and using the averaging mechanism.



Regarding the VP Oncore receivers I recall a comment from them
praising those receivers for both amateur and pro work. I haven't got
one yet, but certainly planning to do so. Dr. Levine commented that
the older units are better made and so, better performing. How can I
tell the difference? I have seen several variations on the used market.


There used to be more documentation on the Motorola range of GPS 
receivers and chips. Would love to get collected.



f. A warm welcome to the new Atlanta member. Has he posted yet?


Just as me he was only in Atlanta for the meeting, and I haven't seen 
him posting yet.



Thank you as always.


You are welcome.

Cheers,
Magnus

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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065A frequency adjustment advise and Common (all in) view GPS comparisons proposal.

[Magnus Danielson]

Dear Edgardo,

On 10/19/2012 11:06 PM, Edgardo Molina wrote:

Dear Group,

Good afternoon. I just realized that my two HP 5065As have been
running for about a month and their operation has been closely
monitored. Now I assume both clocks are stabilized. I want to
start doing some phase and time comparisons between them and
with respect of a TrueTime 5 MHz GPS receiver signal. I only
have an old Tracor 895A linear phase/time comparator for this
purpose. Luckily it has 5 MHz as a frequency input.  At least
it will allow me to get close to a decent synchronization as I
continue searching for better measurement instruments. Next week
I will be receiving my first HP 53132A and Prologix GPIB-USB
interface to start characterising my clocks and doing
Allan Deviation work.


You should have a good starting-point then. Pull in TimeLab!


My question here is how to finely adjust the 5065A frequency
to bring it in phase to the 5 MHz GPS derived signal. I read
somewhere that it can be fine tuned using the C Field control,
but I am afraid of moving it as both controls have been set
to each instrument's factory values. My oscillator fine
frequency adjustment pots are set to 250 and locked there as
per manual recommendation.


This is a fine recommendation when you use them as stand-alone 
instruments. However, it will limit their ability to achieve SI second 
(UTC second back in the days when you intentionally frequency offset it) 
to be the current instruments properties and long term drift.


If you use a UTC source of sufficient quality (i.e. GPS clock such as 
Thunderbolt) you can remove systematic frequency offsets to within a 
much tighter specification.



May I get some advise as which is the best procedure to adjust
these clocks to start matching them regularly to GPS reference?
I just don't want to mess with the clocks during the process.


The manual gives a good description of how to coarse tune the HP5065A 
into a state where the OCXO is close to correct frequency, locks, has 
good signal properties to maintain lock over time and not add to much 
noise. You have a stable frequency source, but not on mark. The 
C-field correction is to get the final touch, to correct the frequency 
to be very near what the SI second should give you.


For manual trimming, straight frequency measurement is a good start for 
things like oven oscillators, but then you better start to use Time 
Interval (TI) mode. Recall that you want to measure over such lengths 
that the systematic error dominates over the noise. TimeLab is a good 
tool to do this, as it's phase and frequency plots will do linear or 
quadratic estimates, draw the trend curves and you can get a good feel 
for it. You can also get the Allan Deviation and Time Deviation to see 
how your phase and frequency drift compares to the noises.



Also related to my previous question, is it common to use phase
shifters with the 5065A not to touch the frequency standard adjustments?
I saw NMIs using them to adjust Cs clock time scales without touching
the Cs adjustments.


You are comparing apples and oranges.

Good Caesium atomic beam clocks does auto-trimming with a separate 
control loop to steer the C-field. Old caesiums, such as HP5060A and 
HP5061A is in this sense open loop (the term has been used in this 
context before) and need C-field corrections. With such auto-trimming, 
the systematic error due to C-field error can be significantly reduced, 
if not effectively eliminated. Other systematic effects is still there, 
but quality clocks take care to handle them one way or another.


Even good Rubidium gas cell clocks does not have this C-field locking, 
as the C-field correction is used to overcome the systematic effects of 
wall-collisions, buffert gas pulling (which is used to coarse-correct 
the wall-collision effect), cavity pulling and ligth amplitude pulling.


I'm not talking about other standards using caesium and rubidium, but 
most of the effects is dues to the standard type rather than atom type.


So, old Caesiums and Rubidiums require the C-field corrections to align 
up, taking out their systematic effects, and also to compensate drift in 
them, which comes natural from aging.


Good quality modern Caesium clocks on the other hand doesn't need this 
correction to the same degree, but it is also trouble some to measure 
the clock if you measure it after corrections, so by monitoring the 
non-corrected clock and then create a corrected variant for the 
time-scale realization is the preferred variant.



I would like to explore some interesting possibilities as a
byproduct of this enterprise. Is anybody interested in common
(all in) view GPS clock comparisons with me? I just learned the pro
way of doing it at CENAM over the last couple of days during the
symposia of time and frequency that I had the luck to attend. With
some coordination there has to be a way to reproduce those
experiences here, not only as isolated comparisons, but continuous
periodic 

Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!

[Edgardo Molina]

Dear Paul,

Thank you for sharing your comments with me. I am back from a business trip and 
found lots of answers to my concerns. The instrument continues in the green 
with voltage indication within limits. You are right. After valuing the 5065a, 
I rather play with the cheap Rbs. 

Take care and enjoy the weekend.

Regards,



Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV



Información anexa:




CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE INFORMACION

Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario de 
este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un correo 
electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de su computadora sin 
retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente prohibido copiar este 
mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o divulgar su en forma 
parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.


NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not 
the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying to this 
e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your computer 
without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use it for any 
purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.





On Aug 22, 2012, at 8:12 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Edgardo congratulations. The 5065 is a really nice unit. I have one also
 but earlier and luckily my manuals are on the internet.
 It could be disciplined but the fact is for me at least I do not want to.
 Leave a great device as is. There are lots of cheap RBs around and even
 nice oscillators that can be disciplined.
 Hack those and leave 5065 clean and complete it will serve you very well.
 Good luck.
 Regards
 Paul.
 
 On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 5:18 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:
 
 You can discipline a HP 5065A easily using a Shera with the  Tbolt  1 PPS
 and a LTC 1655 DAC in stead of an AD 1861.
 Bert Kehren.
 
 
 In a message dated 8/22/2012 8:23:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
 jlt...@att.net writes:
 
 Edgardo,
 
 Congrats on getting the 5065A up and  operational.  Make sure the A11 Board
 (Temperature Controller) is all  OK.  Failure there can destroy the A12
 RVFR
 Assembly.  There is a  lot of 'expertise' on the list for this unit.
 
 What is the serial number  of your unit and what is the part number of the
 manual you have?
 
 I  have a couple of manuals and I may also have the 'change sheets'  that
 updates the manual to your serial number.  It may take me a while  to chase
 that down but if I have the 'change sheets', I can scan them and  send them
 to you.
 
 I have not heard of anyone 'disciplining' the  5065A by GPS, other than by
 hand from week to week.  However, the 105B  has a built in connection on
 the
 back that is great for that purpose  (negative slope, as I recall) and I
 have
 done that using a Brooks Shera  controller board and the 1 PPS from my
 TBolt.
 It works quite  well.
 
 Joe
 
 -Original Message-
 From:  time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
 Behalf Of  Edgardo Molina
 Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:22 AM
 To:  time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally  working!
 
 
 Dear Group,
 
 I wish you well.
 
 Do you recall a  message and thread about a month ago with my concerns
 about
 buying a used /  unknown condition HP-5065a rubidium frequency standard? I
 bit the bullet  and bought it. Almost mint condition (cosmetically
 speaking)
 and with  several operational issues.
 
 Well, It took me several weeks to put it  back to work. Several capacitors
 on
 several boards along with a couple of  transistors and an IC were replaced.
 After that any being bored by the  yellow light, it finally came off to
 allow
 a beautiful green lock condition  light. I went through the necessary steps
 to tune it and calibrate it. Now,  as I have been told recently. You have
 been bitten by the Time Nuts bug.  I am not complaining at all.
 
 Now the technical issues if you kindly  allow:
 
 a. Does anybody have an HP-5065a manual for the latest versions?  Mine
 (which
 I downloaded from the Internet) is intended for earlier  versions. It seems
 I
 have one of the last produced units. I would kindly  appreciate any help on
 this and I am willing to pay for time and expenses  to anybody who could
 help. During the repair process I found several  differences in the earlier
 versions design and had to figure out hoy mine  works.
 
 b. Is it possible to build a GPSDRb? I would like to know if it  is
 reasonable to pursue the goal to discipline the 5065a with a TB which I
 also
 got recently.
 
 c. I am waiting for the delivery of a recent  purchase. An HP-59309a
 Digital
 Clock to go with the HP 5065a. How I wish I  could find the optional LED
 integrated optional clock and 1PPS output. Is  my purchase a good match for
 the 5065a? Any other 

Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!

[Edgardo Molina]

Dear Bert,

Thank you for your always expert advise. I am receiving an HP 105B next week 
and for sure I will be doing some disciplining with the Thunderbolt. I just 
started to gather operational information on the 5065a to start a record. I 
also have been reading about those methods and also going deeper with your 
information.

Cheers!



Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV



Información anexa:




CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE INFORMACION

Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario de 
este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un correo 
electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de su computadora sin 
retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente prohibido copiar este 
mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o divulgar su en forma 
parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.


NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not 
the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying to this 
e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your computer 
without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use it for any 
purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.





On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:18 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:

 You can discipline a HP 5065A easily using a Shera with the  Tbolt  1 PPS 
 and a LTC 1655 DAC in stead of an AD 1861.
 Bert Kehren.
 
 
 In a message dated 8/22/2012 8:23:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
 jlt...@att.net writes:
 
 Edgardo,
 
 Congrats on getting the 5065A up and  operational.  Make sure the A11 Board
 (Temperature Controller) is all  OK.  Failure there can destroy the A12 RVFR
 Assembly.  There is a  lot of 'expertise' on the list for this unit.
 
 What is the serial number  of your unit and what is the part number of the
 manual you have?
 
 I  have a couple of manuals and I may also have the 'change sheets'  that
 updates the manual to your serial number.  It may take me a while  to chase
 that down but if I have the 'change sheets', I can scan them and  send them
 to you.
 
 I have not heard of anyone 'disciplining' the  5065A by GPS, other than by
 hand from week to week.  However, the 105B  has a built in connection on the
 back that is great for that purpose  (negative slope, as I recall) and I 
 have
 done that using a Brooks Shera  controller board and the 1 PPS from my 
 TBolt.
 It works quite  well.
 
 Joe
 
 -Original Message-
 From:  time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
 Behalf Of  Edgardo Molina
 Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:22 AM
 To:  time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally  working!
 
 
 Dear Group,
 
 I wish you well.
 
 Do you recall a  message and thread about a month ago with my concerns about
 buying a used /  unknown condition HP-5065a rubidium frequency standard? I
 bit the bullet  and bought it. Almost mint condition (cosmetically speaking)
 and with  several operational issues. 
 
 Well, It took me several weeks to put it  back to work. Several capacitors 
 on
 several boards along with a couple of  transistors and an IC were replaced.
 After that any being bored by the  yellow light, it finally came off to 
 allow
 a beautiful green lock condition  light. I went through the necessary steps
 to tune it and calibrate it. Now,  as I have been told recently. You have
 been bitten by the Time Nuts bug.  I am not complaining at all.
 
 Now the technical issues if you kindly  allow:
 
 a. Does anybody have an HP-5065a manual for the latest versions?  Mine 
 (which
 I downloaded from the Internet) is intended for earlier  versions. It seems 
 I
 have one of the last produced units. I would kindly  appreciate any help on
 this and I am willing to pay for time and expenses  to anybody who could
 help. During the repair process I found several  differences in the earlier
 versions design and had to figure out hoy mine  works.
 
 b. Is it possible to build a GPSDRb? I would like to know if it  is
 reasonable to pursue the goal to discipline the 5065a with a TB which I  
 also
 got recently. 
 
 c. I am waiting for the delivery of a recent  purchase. An HP-59309a Digital
 Clock to go with the HP 5065a. How I wish I  could find the optional LED
 integrated optional clock and 1PPS output. Is  my purchase a good match for
 the 5065a? Any other suggestions to drive a  clock?
 
 d. I am waiting also for de delivery of an HP-105b mint  condition quartz
 frequency standard. Would a second 59309a make sense to  use it with this
 quartz standard? Or just saving it for a Cesium? Anybody  willing to sell a
 spare, dust gathering, clean unit to me?
 
 e. Any  suggestions for software of lab equipment to measure my experiments
 like  AD, jitter, phase comparisons, etc?
 
 
 While I wait I am doing some  experiments with a FE Rb 

Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!

[Edgardo Molina]

Dear Joe,

Thank you for your thoughts! The extra manual sheets will certainly be of a 
great help. I will come back to you regarding the serial number of the 
equipment and also the part number of the manual. I am still at the office. 

Following the multiple advises, I am ordering a Brooke Shera board to build my 
disciplining set for my 105B from the TB. I am surely having lots of fun with 
it.

Thank you again.

Regards,





Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV



Información anexa:




CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE INFORMACION

Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario de 
este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un correo 
electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de su computadora sin 
retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente prohibido copiar este 
mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o divulgar su en forma 
parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.


NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not 
the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying to this 
e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your computer 
without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use it for any 
purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.





On Aug 22, 2012, at 7:22 AM, J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net wrote:

 Edgardo,
 
 Congrats on getting the 5065A up and operational.  Make sure the A11 Board
 (Temperature Controller) is all OK.  Failure there can destroy the A12 RVFR
 Assembly.  There is a lot of 'expertise' on the list for this unit.
 
 What is the serial number of your unit and what is the part number of the
 manual you have?
 
 I have a couple of manuals and I may also have the 'change sheets' that
 updates the manual to your serial number.  It may take me a while to chase
 that down but if I have the 'change sheets', I can scan them and send them
 to you.
 
 I have not heard of anyone 'disciplining' the 5065A by GPS, other than by
 hand from week to week.  However, the 105B has a built in connection on the
 back that is great for that purpose (negative slope, as I recall) and I have
 done that using a Brooks Shera controller board and the 1 PPS from my TBolt.
 It works quite well.
 
 Joe
 
 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
 Behalf Of Edgardo Molina
 Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:22 AM
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!
 
 
 Dear Group,
 
 I wish you well.
 
 Do you recall a message and thread about a month ago with my concerns about
 buying a used / unknown condition HP-5065a rubidium frequency standard? I
 bit the bullet and bought it. Almost mint condition (cosmetically speaking)
 and with several operational issues. 
 
 Well, It took me several weeks to put it back to work. Several capacitors on
 several boards along with a couple of transistors and an IC were replaced.
 After that any being bored by the yellow light, it finally came off to allow
 a beautiful green lock condition light. I went through the necessary steps
 to tune it and calibrate it. Now, as I have been told recently. You have
 been bitten by the Time Nuts bug. I am not complaining at all.
 
 Now the technical issues if you kindly allow:
 
 a. Does anybody have an HP-5065a manual for the latest versions? Mine (which
 I downloaded from the Internet) is intended for earlier versions. It seems I
 have one of the last produced units. I would kindly appreciate any help on
 this and I am willing to pay for time and expenses to anybody who could
 help. During the repair process I found several differences in the earlier
 versions design and had to figure out hoy mine works.
 
 b. Is it possible to build a GPSDRb? I would like to know if it is
 reasonable to pursue the goal to discipline the 5065a with a TB which I also
 got recently. 
 
 c. I am waiting for the delivery of a recent purchase. An HP-59309a Digital
 Clock to go with the HP 5065a. How I wish I could find the optional LED
 integrated optional clock and 1PPS output. Is my purchase a good match for
 the 5065a? Any other suggestions to drive a clock?
 
 d. I am waiting also for de delivery of an HP-105b mint condition quartz
 frequency standard. Would a second 59309a make sense to use it with this
 quartz standard? Or just saving it for a Cesium? Anybody willing to sell a
 spare, dust gathering, clean unit to me?
 
 e. Any suggestions for software of lab equipment to measure my experiments
 like AD, jitter, phase comparisons, etc?
 
 
 While I wait I am doing some experiments with a FE Rb standard to discipline
 an Adret synthesiser to output 32.768 KHz to directly drive a Nixie clock
 kit I just finished building.
 
 Your comments are surely welcome. Thank you!
 
 Kind 

Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!

[EWKehren]

Edgardo
If you need a Shera board and parts I still have some extras. Contact me  
off list.
Bert
 
 
In a message dated 8/24/2012 4:05:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
xe1...@amsat.org writes:

Dear  Bert,

Thank you for your always expert advise. I am receiving an HP  105B next 
week and for sure I will be doing some disciplining with the  Thunderbolt. I 
just started to gather operational information on the 5065a to  start a 
record. I also have been reading about those methods and also going  deeper 
with 
your information.

Cheers!



Edgardo  Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55  55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de  CV



Información anexa:




CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE  INFORMACION

Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el  destinarario 
de este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente  mediante un 
correo electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de  su 
computadora sin retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente  prohibido 
copiar este mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o  divulgar su en 
forma parcial o total su contenido.  Gracias.


NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

This email is  strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are 
not the intended  recipient please immediately advise the sender by 
replying to this e-mail and  then deleting the message and its attachments from 
your computer without  keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or 
use it for any purpose  or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank  
you.





On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:18 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com  wrote:

 You can discipline a HP 5065A easily using a Shera with  the  Tbolt  1 
PPS 
 and a LTC 1655 DAC in stead of an AD  1861.
 Bert Kehren.
 
 
 In a message dated  8/22/2012 8:23:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
 jlt...@att.net  writes:
 
 Edgardo,
 
 Congrats on getting the  5065A up and  operational.  Make sure the A11 
Board
  (Temperature Controller) is all  OK.  Failure there can destroy the  A12 
RVFR
 Assembly.  There is a  lot of 'expertise' on the  list for this unit.
 
 What is the serial number  of your  unit and what is the part number of 
the
 manual you have?
  
 I  have a couple of manuals and I may also have the 'change  sheets'  that
 updates the manual to your serial number.  It  may take me a while  to 
chase
 that down but if I have the 'change  sheets', I can scan them and  send 
them
 to you.
 
  I have not heard of anyone 'disciplining' the  5065A by GPS, other than  
by
 hand from week to week.  However, the 105B  has a built  in connection on 
the
 back that is great for that purpose   (negative slope, as I recall) and I 
 have
 done that using a  Brooks Shera  controller board and the 1 PPS from my 
  TBolt.
 It works quite  well.
 
 Joe
  
 -Original Message-
 From:   time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
  Behalf Of  Edgardo Molina
 Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:22  AM
 To:  time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] HP-5065a  bought and finally  working!
 
 
 Dear  Group,
 
 I wish you well.
 
 Do you recall  a  message and thread about a month ago with my concerns 
about
  buying a used /  unknown condition HP-5065a rubidium frequency standard? 
 I
 bit the bullet  and bought it. Almost mint condition  (cosmetically 
speaking)
 and with  several operational issues.  
 
 Well, It took me several weeks to put it  back to work.  Several 
capacitors 
 on
 several boards along with a couple  of  transistors and an IC were 
replaced.
 After that any being  bored by the  yellow light, it finally came off to 
 allow
  a beautiful green lock condition  light. I went through the necessary  
steps
 to tune it and calibrate it. Now,  as I have been told  recently. You 
have
 been bitten by the Time Nuts bug.  I am not  complaining at all.
 
 Now the technical issues if you  kindly  allow:
 
 a. Does anybody have an HP-5065a manual  for the latest versions?  Mine 
 (which
 I downloaded from  the Internet) is intended for earlier  versions. It 
seems 
  I
 have one of the last produced units. I would kindly  appreciate  any help 
on
 this and I am willing to pay for time and expenses   to anybody who could
 help. During the repair process I found  several  differences in the 
earlier
 versions design and had to  figure out hoy mine  works.
 
 b. Is it possible to build a  GPSDRb? I would like to know if it  is
 reasonable to pursue the  goal to discipline the 5065a with a TB which I  
 also
 got  recently. 
 
 c. I am waiting for the delivery of a recent   purchase. An HP-59309a 
Digital
 Clock to go with the HP 5065a. How I  wish I  could find the optional LED
 integrated optional clock and  1PPS output. Is  my purchase a good match 
for
 the 5065a? Any  other suggestions to drive a  clock?
 
 d. I am waiting  also for de delivery of an HP-105b mint  condition quartz
  frequency standard. Would a second 59309a make sense to  use it with  
this
 quartz 

Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!

[Edgardo Molina]

Dear Azelio,

Wow! The TimePod is a beauty. I wrote to John Miles regarding payment options 
and ordering instructions. Not planning to buy one at that price soon, but 
better be safe than sorry. What a nice piece of equipment.

Are all of you guys obtaining your graphical information and Allan Dev 
information using TimePod exclusively? Sorry to sound newbie on these matters. 
I am planning to take the plunge to full depth, you will see.

In the mean time, are there other generic or home made solutions for measuring? 
I only have the following in my arsenal wanna be:

Oscilloscope. Digital 100Mhz 2 channels (Siglent)
Oscilloscope. Analogue 20Mhz 2 channels (Goldstar)
Bench multimeter digital (HP)
Frequency counter 10Hz to 1GHz (Sencore)
Frequency counter 10Hz to 20GHz (HP)
Signal generator synthesiser up to 60Mhz (HP)
Signal Hound Spectrum Analyser up to 4Ghz
Multiple other gadgets with lesser quality not worth mentioning

Could there be software and SDR, USB connected kits solutions to play around 
while saving for a TimePod?

Thank you.

Regards,



Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV



Información anexa:




CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE INFORMACION

Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario de 
este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un correo 
electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de su computadora sin 
retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente prohibido copiar este 
mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o divulgar su en forma 
parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.


NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not 
the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying to this 
e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your computer 
without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use it for any 
purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.





On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:43 AM, Azelio Boriani azelio.bori...@screen.it wrote:

 I think that it is the time for you to look at the TimePod: the TimePod can
 help you with Allan Deviation and phase noise measurement, the next step
 after clocks is measuring equipment and the TimePod is a sort of all-in-one
 for time-nuts, its place is right after the bench yellow multimeter.
 
 On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:03 AM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R
 c...@omen.comwrote:
 
 If it is a really good Rb standard, consider adjusting the
 standard yourself by measuring the phase over several
 days once the standard has warmed up and settled down.
 A GPIB counter with phase measurement is useful for this.
 
 --
 Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
 Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
  Omen Technology Inc  The High Reliability Software
 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430
 
 
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!

[Edgardo Molina]

Dear Chuck,

Thank you for your advise. Could you please kindly give me an example of such a 
GPIB counter with phase measurement? HP model number? My 5065a has been running 
with a beautiful green light for almost 72hrs. Glad to be back home and found 
it warm and stable.

Take care!

Regards,



Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV



Información anexa:




CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE INFORMACION

Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario de 
este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un correo 
electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de su computadora sin 
retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente prohibido copiar este 
mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o divulgar su en forma 
parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.


NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not 
the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying to this 
e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your computer 
without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use it for any 
purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.





On Aug 22, 2012, at 2:03 AM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com wrote:

 If it is a really good Rb standard, consider adjusting the
 standard yourself by measuring the phase over several
 days once the standard has warmed up and settled down.
 A GPIB counter with phase measurement is useful for this.
 
 -- 
 Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
 Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
  Omen Technology Inc  The High Reliability Software
 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430
 
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!

[John Ackermann N8UR]

Hi Eduardo --

For longer term measurements (e.g., tau of an hour or more) a very nice 
and inexpensive counter is the HP 5334A/B.  I haven't looked recently, 
but in the past I bought several off eBay for $150 or less.  They are 
fairly modern, compact (2U high), and don't have a noisy fan.  They have 
2ns time interval resolution in single shot mode, have a built-in 100 
sample average, and have GPIB output.


You can use a Prologix (http://prologix.biz) USB - GPIB converter to 
talk to the 5334 from John Miles' TimeLab software.


For longer measurements, it's usually easiest to use a PPS signal rather 
than 5 MHz.  There are a number of ways to derive that, but I'll put in 
a shameless plug for the TAPR TADD-2 Mini 
(http://tapr.org/kits_t2-mini.html) as an inexpensive PPS generator.


With that set-up and a GPS you will be able to measure the medium-term 
stability and aging of your 5065A.


John

On 8/24/2012 4:40 PM, Edgardo Molina wrote:

Dear Chuck,

Thank you for your advise. Could you please kindly give me an example of such a 
GPIB counter with phase measurement? HP model number? My 5065a has been running 
with a beautiful green light for almost 72hrs. Glad to be back home and found 
it warm and stable.

Take care!

Regards,



Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV



Información anexa:




CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE INFORMACION

Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario de 
este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un correo 
electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de su computadora sin 
retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente prohibido copiar este 
mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o divulgar su en forma 
parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.


NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not 
the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying to this 
e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your computer 
without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use it for any 
purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.





On Aug 22, 2012, at 2:03 AM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com wrote:


If it is a really good Rb standard, consider adjusting the
standard yourself by measuring the phase over several
days once the standard has warmed up and settled down.
A GPIB counter with phase measurement is useful for this.

--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
  Omen Technology Inc  The High Reliability Software
10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


___
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.




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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!

[Edgardo Molina]

Dear John,

Thank you for such a detailed response. I will certainly look for Ebay 
opportunities on the models you kindly advised. I had the TAPR unit on my mind 
for several months but not sure about the way it could behave for these kind of 
measurements. I see this hobby will last for a long time. Other hobbies I have 
are amateur radio, seismology, radio and visual astronomy as well as 
astrophotography. I have seen large amounts of checks being used for hobbies 
that turn out to be great for learning. Nowadays I make a living out of what 
amateur radio digital communications taught to me decades ago. That is what 
hobbies are for me. Time and Frequency will certainly led me to better learning 
opportunities and a way to enjoy experimenting with the technology that was 
only a dream during my childhood.

I will take the time to research on the items you kindly mention. Thank you.

P.S. And also very important: Should I leave the HP 5065a on 24x7? Or do you 
recommend to treat it like a randomly used Cesium? I have a couple of FE cheap 
Rubidiums that won't hurt if they fail for disciplining purposes.


Regards,



Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV



Información anexa:




CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE INFORMACION

Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario de 
este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un correo 
electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de su computadora sin 
retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente prohibido copiar este 
mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o divulgar su en forma 
parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.


NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not 
the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying to this 
e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your computer 
without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use it for any 
purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.





On Aug 24, 2012, at 3:53 PM, John Ackermann N8UR j...@febo.com wrote:

 Hi Eduardo --
 
 For longer term measurements (e.g., tau of an hour or more) a very nice and 
 inexpensive counter is the HP 5334A/B.  I haven't looked recently, but in the 
 past I bought several off eBay for $150 or less.  They are fairly modern, 
 compact (2U high), and don't have a noisy fan.  They have 2ns time interval 
 resolution in single shot mode, have a built-in 100 sample average, and have 
 GPIB output.
 
 You can use a Prologix (http://prologix.biz) USB - GPIB converter to talk to 
 the 5334 from John Miles' TimeLab software.
 
 For longer measurements, it's usually easiest to use a PPS signal rather than 
 5 MHz.  There are a number of ways to derive that, but I'll put in a 
 shameless plug for the TAPR TADD-2 Mini (http://tapr.org/kits_t2-mini.html) 
 as an inexpensive PPS generator.
 
 With that set-up and a GPS you will be able to measure the medium-term 
 stability and aging of your 5065A.
 
 John
 
 On 8/24/2012 4:40 PM, Edgardo Molina wrote:
 Dear Chuck,
 
 Thank you for your advise. Could you please kindly give me an example of 
 such a GPIB counter with phase measurement? HP model number? My 5065a has 
 been running with a beautiful green light for almost 72hrs. Glad to be back 
 home and found it warm and stable.
 
 Take care!
 
 Regards,
 
 
 
 Edgardo Molina
 Dirección IPTEL
 
 www.iptel.net.mx
 
 T : 55 55 55202444
 M : 04455 20501854
 
 Piensa en Bits SA de CV
 
 
 
 Información anexa:
 
 
 
 
 CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE INFORMACION
 
 Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario de 
 este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un correo 
 electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de su computadora 
 sin retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente prohibido copiar 
 este mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o divulgar su en 
 forma parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.
 
 
 NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION
 
 This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are 
 not the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying 
 to this e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your 
 computer without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use 
 it for any purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.
 
 
 
 
 
 On Aug 22, 2012, at 2:03 AM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com 
 wrote:
 
 If it is a really good Rb standard, consider adjusting the
 standard yourself by measuring the phase over several
 days once the standard has warmed up and settled down.
 A GPIB counter with phase measurement is useful for this.
 
 --
 Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
 Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for 

Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!

[Ron Ward]

Hi Burt:
I just purchased four Shera boards from AA Engineering and four Motorola
Oncore UT+ receivers from TAPER.

I would be interested in any parts from you that would be available for
purchase.

I do not have a PIC programmer. I don't know where to find the firmware for
the PIC 16 F XXX chip. I believe that it is different from the PIC16 C XXX
firmware, but I could be wrong.

I want to build four units. Two each for myself and two for my cousin Dan
WA6DAN. One would be operational and the second would be a spare for each of
us.

What DAC are you using on the Shera board?

Thanks,
Ron

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of ewkeh...@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 1:21 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!

Edgardo
If you need a Shera board and parts I still have some extras. Contact me  
off list.
Bert
 
 
In a message dated 8/24/2012 4:05:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
xe1...@amsat.org writes:

Dear  Bert,

Thank you for your always expert advise. I am receiving an HP  105B next 
week and for sure I will be doing some disciplining with the  Thunderbolt. I

just started to gather operational information on the 5065a to  start a 
record. I also have been reading about those methods and also going  deeper
with 
your information.

Cheers!



Edgardo  Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55  55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de  CV



Información anexa:




CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE  INFORMACION

Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el  destinarario 
de este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente  mediante un 
correo electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de  su 
computadora sin retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente
prohibido 
copiar este mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o  divulgar su
en 
forma parcial o total su contenido.  Gracias.


NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

This email is  strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are 
not the intended  recipient please immediately advise the sender by 
replying to this e-mail and  then deleting the message and its attachments
from 
your computer without  keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it
or 
use it for any purpose  or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank  
you.





On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:18 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com  wrote:

 You can discipline a HP 5065A easily using a Shera with  the  Tbolt  1 
PPS 
 and a LTC 1655 DAC in stead of an AD  1861.
 Bert Kehren.
 
 
 In a message dated  8/22/2012 8:23:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
 jlt...@att.net  writes:
 
 Edgardo,
 
 Congrats on getting the  5065A up and  operational.  Make sure the A11 
Board
  (Temperature Controller) is all  OK.  Failure there can destroy the  A12 
RVFR
 Assembly.  There is a  lot of 'expertise' on the  list for this unit.
 
 What is the serial number  of your  unit and what is the part number of 
the
 manual you have?
  
 I  have a couple of manuals and I may also have the 'change  sheets'  that
 updates the manual to your serial number.  It  may take me a while  to 
chase
 that down but if I have the 'change  sheets', I can scan them and  send 
them
 to you.
 
  I have not heard of anyone 'disciplining' the  5065A by GPS, other than  
by
 hand from week to week.  However, the 105B  has a built  in connection on 
the
 back that is great for that purpose   (negative slope, as I recall) and I 
 have
 done that using a  Brooks Shera  controller board and the 1 PPS from my 
  TBolt.
 It works quite  well.
 
 Joe
  
 -Original Message-
 From:   time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
  Behalf Of  Edgardo Molina
 Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:22  AM
 To:  time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] HP-5065a  bought and finally  working!
 
 
 Dear  Group,
 
 I wish you well.
 
 Do you recall  a  message and thread about a month ago with my concerns 
about
  buying a used /  unknown condition HP-5065a rubidium frequency standard? 
 I
 bit the bullet  and bought it. Almost mint condition  (cosmetically 
speaking)
 and with  several operational issues.  
 
 Well, It took me several weeks to put it  back to work.  Several 
capacitors 
 on
 several boards along with a couple  of  transistors and an IC were 
replaced.
 After that any being  bored by the  yellow light, it finally came off to 
 allow
  a beautiful green lock condition  light. I went through the necessary  
steps
 to tune it and calibrate it. Now,  as I have been told  recently. You 
have
 been bitten by the Time Nuts bug.  I am not  complaining at all.
 
 Now the technical issues if you  kindly  allow:
 
 a. Does anybody have an HP-5065a manual  for the latest versions?  Mine 
 (which
 I downloaded from  the Internet) is intended for earlier  versions. It 
seems 
  I
 have one of the last produced units. I would kindly  appreciate  any

Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!

[Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R]

If it is a really good Rb standard, consider adjusting the
standard yourself by measuring the phase over several
days once the standard has warmed up and settled down.
A GPIB counter with phase measurement is useful for this.

--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
  Omen Technology Inc  The High Reliability Software
10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!

[Azelio Boriani]

I think that it is the time for you to look at the TimePod: the TimePod can
help you with Allan Deviation and phase noise measurement, the next step
after clocks is measuring equipment and the TimePod is a sort of all-in-one
for time-nuts, its place is right after the bench yellow multimeter.

On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:03 AM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R
c...@omen.comwrote:

 If it is a really good Rb standard, consider adjusting the
 standard yourself by measuring the phase over several
 days once the standard has warmed up and settled down.
 A GPIB counter with phase measurement is useful for this.

 --
 Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
 Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
   Omen Technology Inc  The High Reliability Software
 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430



 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!

[J. L. Trantham]

Edgardo,

Congrats on getting the 5065A up and operational.  Make sure the A11 Board
(Temperature Controller) is all OK.  Failure there can destroy the A12 RVFR
Assembly.  There is a lot of 'expertise' on the list for this unit.

What is the serial number of your unit and what is the part number of the
manual you have?

I have a couple of manuals and I may also have the 'change sheets' that
updates the manual to your serial number.  It may take me a while to chase
that down but if I have the 'change sheets', I can scan them and send them
to you.

I have not heard of anyone 'disciplining' the 5065A by GPS, other than by
hand from week to week.  However, the 105B has a built in connection on the
back that is great for that purpose (negative slope, as I recall) and I have
done that using a Brooks Shera controller board and the 1 PPS from my TBolt.
It works quite well.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Edgardo Molina
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:22 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!


Dear Group,

I wish you well.

Do you recall a message and thread about a month ago with my concerns about
buying a used / unknown condition HP-5065a rubidium frequency standard? I
bit the bullet and bought it. Almost mint condition (cosmetically speaking)
and with several operational issues. 

Well, It took me several weeks to put it back to work. Several capacitors on
several boards along with a couple of transistors and an IC were replaced.
After that any being bored by the yellow light, it finally came off to allow
a beautiful green lock condition light. I went through the necessary steps
to tune it and calibrate it. Now, as I have been told recently. You have
been bitten by the Time Nuts bug. I am not complaining at all.

Now the technical issues if you kindly allow:

a. Does anybody have an HP-5065a manual for the latest versions? Mine (which
I downloaded from the Internet) is intended for earlier versions. It seems I
have one of the last produced units. I would kindly appreciate any help on
this and I am willing to pay for time and expenses to anybody who could
help. During the repair process I found several differences in the earlier
versions design and had to figure out hoy mine works.

b. Is it possible to build a GPSDRb? I would like to know if it is
reasonable to pursue the goal to discipline the 5065a with a TB which I also
got recently. 

c. I am waiting for the delivery of a recent purchase. An HP-59309a Digital
Clock to go with the HP 5065a. How I wish I could find the optional LED
integrated optional clock and 1PPS output. Is my purchase a good match for
the 5065a? Any other suggestions to drive a clock?

d. I am waiting also for de delivery of an HP-105b mint condition quartz
frequency standard. Would a second 59309a make sense to use it with this
quartz standard? Or just saving it for a Cesium? Anybody willing to sell a
spare, dust gathering, clean unit to me?

e. Any suggestions for software of lab equipment to measure my experiments
like AD, jitter, phase comparisons, etc?


While I wait I am doing some experiments with a FE Rb standard to discipline
an Adret synthesiser to output 32.768 KHz to directly drive a Nixie clock
kit I just finished building.

Your comments are surely welcome. Thank you!

Kind regards,


Edgardo Molina
XE1XUS
Mexico


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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!

[EWKehren]

You can discipline a HP 5065A easily using a Shera with the  Tbolt  1 PPS 
and a LTC 1655 DAC in stead of an AD 1861.
Bert Kehren.
 
 
In a message dated 8/22/2012 8:23:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
jlt...@att.net writes:

Edgardo,

Congrats on getting the 5065A up and  operational.  Make sure the A11 Board
(Temperature Controller) is all  OK.  Failure there can destroy the A12 RVFR
Assembly.  There is a  lot of 'expertise' on the list for this unit.

What is the serial number  of your unit and what is the part number of the
manual you have?

I  have a couple of manuals and I may also have the 'change sheets'  that
updates the manual to your serial number.  It may take me a while  to chase
that down but if I have the 'change sheets', I can scan them and  send them
to you.

I have not heard of anyone 'disciplining' the  5065A by GPS, other than by
hand from week to week.  However, the 105B  has a built in connection on the
back that is great for that purpose  (negative slope, as I recall) and I 
have
done that using a Brooks Shera  controller board and the 1 PPS from my 
TBolt.
It works quite  well.

Joe

-Original Message-
From:  time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of  Edgardo Molina
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:22 AM
To:  time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally  working!


Dear Group,

I wish you well.

Do you recall a  message and thread about a month ago with my concerns about
buying a used /  unknown condition HP-5065a rubidium frequency standard? I
bit the bullet  and bought it. Almost mint condition (cosmetically speaking)
and with  several operational issues. 

Well, It took me several weeks to put it  back to work. Several capacitors 
on
several boards along with a couple of  transistors and an IC were replaced.
After that any being bored by the  yellow light, it finally came off to 
allow
a beautiful green lock condition  light. I went through the necessary steps
to tune it and calibrate it. Now,  as I have been told recently. You have
been bitten by the Time Nuts bug.  I am not complaining at all.

Now the technical issues if you kindly  allow:

a. Does anybody have an HP-5065a manual for the latest versions?  Mine 
(which
I downloaded from the Internet) is intended for earlier  versions. It seems 
I
have one of the last produced units. I would kindly  appreciate any help on
this and I am willing to pay for time and expenses  to anybody who could
help. During the repair process I found several  differences in the earlier
versions design and had to figure out hoy mine  works.

b. Is it possible to build a GPSDRb? I would like to know if it  is
reasonable to pursue the goal to discipline the 5065a with a TB which I  
also
got recently. 

c. I am waiting for the delivery of a recent  purchase. An HP-59309a Digital
Clock to go with the HP 5065a. How I wish I  could find the optional LED
integrated optional clock and 1PPS output. Is  my purchase a good match for
the 5065a? Any other suggestions to drive a  clock?

d. I am waiting also for de delivery of an HP-105b mint  condition quartz
frequency standard. Would a second 59309a make sense to  use it with this
quartz standard? Or just saving it for a Cesium? Anybody  willing to sell a
spare, dust gathering, clean unit to me?

e. Any  suggestions for software of lab equipment to measure my experiments
like  AD, jitter, phase comparisons, etc?


While I wait I am doing some  experiments with a FE Rb standard to 
discipline
an Adret synthesiser to  output 32.768 KHz to directly drive a Nixie clock
kit I just finished  building.

Your comments are surely welcome. Thank you!

Kind  regards,


Edgardo  Molina
XE1XUS
Mexico


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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally working!

[paul swed]

Edgardo congratulations. The 5065 is a really nice unit. I have one also
but earlier and luckily my manuals are on the internet.
It could be disciplined but the fact is for me at least I do not want to.
Leave a great device as is. There are lots of cheap RBs around and even
nice oscillators that can be disciplined.
Hack those and leave 5065 clean and complete it will serve you very well.
Good luck.
Regards
Paul.

On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 5:18 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:

 You can discipline a HP 5065A easily using a Shera with the  Tbolt  1 PPS
 and a LTC 1655 DAC in stead of an AD 1861.
 Bert Kehren.


 In a message dated 8/22/2012 8:23:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
 jlt...@att.net writes:

 Edgardo,

 Congrats on getting the 5065A up and  operational.  Make sure the A11 Board
 (Temperature Controller) is all  OK.  Failure there can destroy the A12
 RVFR
 Assembly.  There is a  lot of 'expertise' on the list for this unit.

 What is the serial number  of your unit and what is the part number of the
 manual you have?

 I  have a couple of manuals and I may also have the 'change sheets'  that
 updates the manual to your serial number.  It may take me a while  to chase
 that down but if I have the 'change sheets', I can scan them and  send them
 to you.

 I have not heard of anyone 'disciplining' the  5065A by GPS, other than by
 hand from week to week.  However, the 105B  has a built in connection on
 the
 back that is great for that purpose  (negative slope, as I recall) and I
 have
 done that using a Brooks Shera  controller board and the 1 PPS from my
 TBolt.
 It works quite  well.

 Joe

 -Original Message-
 From:  time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
 Behalf Of  Edgardo Molina
 Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:22 AM
 To:  time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] HP-5065a bought and finally  working!


 Dear Group,

 I wish you well.

 Do you recall a  message and thread about a month ago with my concerns
 about
 buying a used /  unknown condition HP-5065a rubidium frequency standard? I
 bit the bullet  and bought it. Almost mint condition (cosmetically
 speaking)
 and with  several operational issues.

 Well, It took me several weeks to put it  back to work. Several capacitors
 on
 several boards along with a couple of  transistors and an IC were replaced.
 After that any being bored by the  yellow light, it finally came off to
 allow
 a beautiful green lock condition  light. I went through the necessary steps
 to tune it and calibrate it. Now,  as I have been told recently. You have
 been bitten by the Time Nuts bug.  I am not complaining at all.

 Now the technical issues if you kindly  allow:

 a. Does anybody have an HP-5065a manual for the latest versions?  Mine
 (which
 I downloaded from the Internet) is intended for earlier  versions. It seems
 I
 have one of the last produced units. I would kindly  appreciate any help on
 this and I am willing to pay for time and expenses  to anybody who could
 help. During the repair process I found several  differences in the earlier
 versions design and had to figure out hoy mine  works.

 b. Is it possible to build a GPSDRb? I would like to know if it  is
 reasonable to pursue the goal to discipline the 5065a with a TB which I
 also
 got recently.

 c. I am waiting for the delivery of a recent  purchase. An HP-59309a
 Digital
 Clock to go with the HP 5065a. How I wish I  could find the optional LED
 integrated optional clock and 1PPS output. Is  my purchase a good match for
 the 5065a? Any other suggestions to drive a  clock?

 d. I am waiting also for de delivery of an HP-105b mint  condition quartz
 frequency standard. Would a second 59309a make sense to  use it with this
 quartz standard? Or just saving it for a Cesium? Anybody  willing to sell a
 spare, dust gathering, clean unit to me?

 e. Any  suggestions for software of lab equipment to measure my experiments
 like  AD, jitter, phase comparisons, etc?


 While I wait I am doing some  experiments with a FE Rb standard to
 discipline
 an Adret synthesiser to  output 32.768 KHz to directly drive a Nixie clock
 kit I just finished  building.

 Your comments are surely welcome. Thank you!

 Kind  regards,


 Edgardo  Molina
 XE1XUS
 Mexico


 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go  to
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision

[Ron Ward]

Hi, I am new here.
Are the Rubidium cell AND Rubidium Lamp still available either from
HP/Agilant or another source? I am thinking of buying a HP-5065A and it
would be nice if these critical parts were still available!
Thanks,
Ron


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 12:48 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision

Hi

Yes, I have poked at the early ones (1980's). They are the only thing I
have seen that will beat the HP 5065. There is also a lot of published
data on them.

Bob

On Jul 1, 2012, at 5:43 PM, b...@lysator.liu.se wrote:

 Tom,
 
 Chris,
 
 The HP 5065A is one of the best Rb ever made.
 
 /tvb (iPhone4)
 
 Have you or any other list member had the opportunity to take
measurements
 on the ElmerPerkin/EGG Space rubidiums (in a lab environment)?
 
   http://www.excelitas.com/Downloads/DTS_Frequency_Standards_RAFS.pdf
 
 --
 
Björn
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision

[Magnus Danielson]

On 07/03/2012 09:02 AM, Ron Ward wrote:

Hi, I am new here.
Are the Rubidium cell AND Rubidium Lamp still available either from
HP/Agilant or another source? I am thinking of buying a HP-5065A and it
would be nice if these critical parts were still available!


They are not the parts that fails typically. If needed, they seems to be 
available here.


Powersupplies typically fail.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The cells only fail if you drop and break them. The lamps can wear out, but 
generally don't. The lamps can be found. The power transformer in any of these 
old beasts is the part that I worry about. Both HP and Tek used very 
conservative design rules on their transformers, they normally last a long time.

Bob

On Jul 3, 2012, at 3:02 AM, Ron Ward wrote:

 Hi, I am new here.
 Are the Rubidium cell AND Rubidium Lamp still available either from
 HP/Agilant or another source? I am thinking of buying a HP-5065A and it
 would be nice if these critical parts were still available!
 Thanks,
 Ron
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
 Behalf Of Bob Camp
 Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 12:48 PM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision
 
 Hi
 
 Yes, I have poked at the early ones (1980's). They are the only thing I
 have seen that will beat the HP 5065. There is also a lot of published
 data on them.
 
 Bob
 
 On Jul 1, 2012, at 5:43 PM, b...@lysator.liu.se wrote:
 
 Tom,
 
 Chris,
 
 The HP 5065A is one of the best Rb ever made.
 
 /tvb (iPhone4)
 
 Have you or any other list member had the opportunity to take
 measurements
 on the ElmerPerkin/EGG Space rubidiums (in a lab environment)?
 
 http://www.excelitas.com/Downloads/DTS_Frequency_Standards_RAFS.pdf
 
 --
 
  Björn
 
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
 
 
 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to
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 and follow the instructions there.
 
 
 
 ___
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision

[Ron Ward]

Hi:
Okay, thanks for the information.
Ron

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 1:12 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision

On 07/03/2012 09:02 AM, Ron Ward wrote:
 Hi, I am new here.
 Are the Rubidium cell AND Rubidium Lamp still available either from
 HP/Agilant or another source? I am thinking of buying a HP-5065A and
it
 would be nice if these critical parts were still available!

They are not the parts that fails typically. If needed, they seems to be

available here.

Powersupplies typically fail.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision

[Ron Ward]

Hi:
Okay thank you for the information.
Ron

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 4:08 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision

Hi

The cells only fail if you drop and break them. The lamps can wear out,
but generally don't. The lamps can be found. The power transformer in
any of these old beasts is the part that I worry about. Both HP and Tek
used very conservative design rules on their transformers, they normally
last a long time.

Bob

On Jul 3, 2012, at 3:02 AM, Ron Ward wrote:

 Hi, I am new here.
 Are the Rubidium cell AND Rubidium Lamp still available either from
 HP/Agilant or another source? I am thinking of buying a HP-5065A and
it
 would be nice if these critical parts were still available!
 Thanks,
 Ron
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]
On
 Behalf Of Bob Camp
 Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 12:48 PM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision
 
 Hi
 
 Yes, I have poked at the early ones (1980's). They are the only thing
I
 have seen that will beat the HP 5065. There is also a lot of published
 data on them.
 
 Bob
 
 On Jul 1, 2012, at 5:43 PM, b...@lysator.liu.se wrote:
 
 Tom,
 
 Chris,
 
 The HP 5065A is one of the best Rb ever made.
 
 /tvb (iPhone4)
 
 Have you or any other list member had the opportunity to take
 measurements
 on the ElmerPerkin/EGG Space rubidiums (in a lab environment)?
 
 http://www.excelitas.com/Downloads/DTS_Frequency_Standards_RAFS.pdf
 
 --
 
  Björn
 
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
 
 
 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision

[Jim Lux]

On 7/1/12 2:43 PM, b...@lysator.liu.se wrote:

Tom,


Chris,

The HP 5065A is one of the best Rb ever made.

/tvb (iPhone4)


Have you or any other list member had the opportunity to take measurements
on the ElmerPerkin/EGG Space rubidiums (in a lab environment)?

http://www.excelitas.com/Downloads/DTS_Frequency_Standards_RAFS.pdf

--

are those the ones in GPS satellites? (for instance?)


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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision

[David J Taylor]

-Original Message- 
From: Jim Lux

Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 2:02 PM
[]

http://www.excelitas.com/Downloads/DTS_Frequency_Standards_RAFS.pdf

--

are those the ones in GPS satellites? (for instance?)
=

Jim,

The Galileo satellites have both rubidium atomic clocks and the more precise 
hydrogen maser units - see:


 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17755205

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 



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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Yes, I have poked at the early ones (1980's). They are the only thing I have 
seen that will beat the HP 5065. There is also a lot of published data on them.

Bob

On Jul 1, 2012, at 5:43 PM, b...@lysator.liu.se wrote:

 Tom,
 
 Chris,
 
 The HP 5065A is one of the best Rb ever made.
 
 /tvb (iPhone4)
 
 Have you or any other list member had the opportunity to take measurements
 on the ElmerPerkin/EGG Space rubidiums (in a lab environment)?
 
   http://www.excelitas.com/Downloads/DTS_Frequency_Standards_RAFS.pdf
 
 --
 
Björn
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a Viz Efratom FRK-H (or L)

[Robert Atkinson]

How do the older Efratom FRK series fair compared to the 5065A? 


Robert G8RPI.




 From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com 
Sent: Monday, 2 July 2012, 20:48
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision
 
Hi

Yes, I have poked at the early ones (1980's). They are the only thing I have 
seen that will beat the HP 5065. There is also a lot of published data on them.

Bob

On Jul 1, 2012, at 5:43 PM, b...@lysator.liu.se wrote:

 Tom,
 
 Chris,
 
 The HP 5065A is one of the best Rb ever made.
 
 /tvb (iPhone4)
 
 Have you or any other list member had the opportunity to take measurements
 on the ElmerPerkin/EGG Space rubidiums (in a lab environment)?
 
  http://www.excelitas.com/Downloads/DTS_Frequency_Standards_RAFS.pdf
 
 --
 
    Björn
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a Viz Efratom FRK-H (or L)

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The FRK's (of any era)  are not quite as good as a properly running 5065A on 
short term stability.

Bob
  
On Jul 2, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Robert Atkinson wrote:

 How do the older Efratom FRK series fair compared to the 5065A? 
 
 
 Robert G8RPI.
 
 
 
 
 From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com 
 Sent: Monday, 2 July 2012, 20:48
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision
 
 Hi
 
 Yes, I have poked at the early ones (1980's). They are the only thing I have 
 seen that will beat the HP 5065. There is also a lot of published data on 
 them.
 
 Bob
 
 On Jul 1, 2012, at 5:43 PM, b...@lysator.liu.se wrote:
 
 Tom,
 
 Chris,
 
 The HP 5065A is one of the best Rb ever made.
 
 /tvb (iPhone4)
 
 Have you or any other list member had the opportunity to take measurements
 on the ElmerPerkin/EGG Space rubidiums (in a lab environment)?
 
   http://www.excelitas.com/Downloads/DTS_Frequency_Standards_RAFS.pdf
 
 --
 
 Björn
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision

[Chris Albertson]

What is it you need?  Do you really need an HP-5065 r to do jet need a good
10MHz standard?  What is the intended use/

On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 2:19 PM, J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net wrote:

 Edgardo,

 I would think something in the $500 range for a working unit would be worth
 considering, depending on options, condition, etc.  Anything lower would be
 better.  More depending how 'addicted' you might be to these.


Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5065a advise and purchase decision

[Edgardo Molina]

Dear Chris,

One of my needs: A dependable Rb source. HP appeals to me as most of  
my electronics lab equipment comes from that house. I have seen  
numerous other Rb sources here and there but would like to afford an  
HP unit. I know I can go to the party driving either a 60's VW beattle  
or driving a 60's Ford Mustang. Both of them can get me there. Still  
personally, I rather drive the V8 beast. The robustness, mechanics,  
physics package characteristics and form factor, homogeneous with my  
HP quartz frequency standards and frequency counters is what catches  
my eye when looking at that model. Let's say 50% looks and desire and  
50% for what it is. It will be used in my time and frequency lab.  
Hobby use, a learning tool, an object of desire...


As a time and frequency hobbyist, I feel it is valid to assume my  
investments as big boy toys. The marvel of accessing a childhood dream  
of having a frequency and time lab at home, an educational and  
research niche activity and the possibility to work with this  
instrument, while cruising the long and torturous path of physics and  
engineering understanding.


You have a nice day!

Cheers!


Edgardo Molina
XE1XUS

On Jul 1, 2012, at 1:22 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:

What is it you need?  Do you really need an HP-5065 r to do jet need  
a good

10MHz standard?  What is the intended use/

On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 2:19 PM, J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net  
wrote:



Edgardo,

I would think something in the $500 range for a working unit would  
be worth
considering, depending on options, condition, etc.  Anything lower  
would be

better.  More depending how 'addicted' you might be to these.



Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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